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post #631 of 1044 Old 11-25-2013, 08:22 PM
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Thanks guys, and yes I AM starting to get it, but please understand that your posts often "beg the question".

For example, how can you say a 10% cushion isn't material, but then say "For much of an amp's usable range, THD does not increase with output, at least to a first approximation. In most cases, it's pretty much uniformly flat until you get close to clipping. Then it increases very rapidly." One would think that an extra 10% cushion might be the difference between staying in the happy flat zone vs. going into the rapidly increasing THD zone. Knowing that things can get nasty very quickly makes me think that even 1% improvement could have a very major impact. To use the car analogy: good brakes might stop you in 10 feet, but cheaper brakes will stop you in 11 feet - it's only a 10% difference right?, but what if the object you are trying to avoid is 10 feet away?... Suddenly that 10% cushion makes all the difference. Knowing that THD increases rapidly as you approach clipping is probably the strongest argument I've heard yet in FAVOUR of passive biamping. smile.gif
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post #632 of 1044 Old 11-25-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

Knowing that things can get nasty very quickly makes me think that even 1% improvement could have a very major impact.

That would be nice smile.gif

The guys say 10% is around 1dB. So even if you wanted to push the extra headroom available in a passive setup, you would only gain 1dB.
Or in other words, if you need the reduced distortion level that the 10% in a passive biamp would give you (1dB), you're probably better off just reducing the volume level a mick hair (1dB). If you adjust the volume level down to a point where you noticed a volume difference, you would have gone to far, such is the difference to audibility that 1dB provides.
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post #633 of 1044 Old 11-25-2013, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

People just make this crap up and barf it back in my face like I said it and it is very frustrating.

rolleyes.gif He didn't say you said that.

Maybe you should start your own forum. You wouldn't have to suffer us plebian imbeciles. Of course, you might not have someone to belittle, then. And that'd probably drive you nuts. wink.gif

That said, dead horses ARE being beaten around here.
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post #634 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 05:05 AM
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The discussion has become something akin to arguing the number of angels that will fit on a pinhead. There is no question that there are theoretical beneffits to passive biamplification. There is also no question that there are no practical or audible benefits to passive biamplification. That causes both sides of the argument to be correct. Someone said that if the amplifier isn't powerful enough to handle the desired SPL without clipping, the better solution is to employ a larger amplifier. This is also correct. Hey. Everybody's correct. Now we can all go home and say we won the debate!!!
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post #635 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

Thanks guys, and yes I AM starting to get it, but please understand that your posts often "beg the question".

For example, how can you say a 10% cushion isn't material, but then say "For much of an amp's usable range, THD does not increase with output, at least to a first approximation. In most cases, it's pretty much uniformly flat until you get close to clipping. Then it increases very rapidly." One would think that an extra 10% cushion might be the difference between staying in the happy flat zone vs. going into the rapidly increasing THD zone. Knowing that things can get nasty very quickly makes me think that even 1% improvement could have a very major impact. To use the car analogy: good brakes might stop you in 10 feet, but cheaper brakes will stop you in 11 feet - it's only a 10% difference right?, but what if the object you are trying to avoid is 10 feet away?... Suddenly that 10% cushion makes all the difference. Knowing that THD increases rapidly as you approach clipping is probably the strongest argument I've heard yet in FAVOUR of passive biamping. smile.gif

The thing is without the extra ten percent power you exit the happy flat range and push the distortion way up to about one tenth the amount it takes before humans can hear it. If you cannot hear the distortion either with or without the extra power it makes no practical difference.
IOW if the distortion is still only one tenth of the amount humans can hear, I as a human am unaffected by the added distortion. Except of course psychologically. Frankly real significant extra power (WAY more than ten percent) is a placebo I like. I can feel sure My sound will stay clean no matter what. But that is different from suggesting there is an audible benefit.
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post #636 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 07:08 AM
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For example, how can you say a 10% cushion isn't material,
The word "cushion" is confusing you. I want you to banish it from your vocabulary. There is no such thing as a cushion. There is only power you use, and power you don't use. "cushion" implies that you derive some benefit from power you don't use. That's wrong.

Now, you're going to say, but what if I might use it someday? Wouldn't it be nice to have? Sure. But then it's power you use.
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but then say "For much of an amp's usable range, THD does not increase with output, at least to a first approximation. In most cases, it's pretty much uniformly flat until you get close to clipping. Then it increases very rapidly." One would think that an extra 10% cushion might be the difference between staying in the happy flat zone vs. going into the rapidly increasing THD zone.
It might, but I don't think you realize just how trivial that extra 10% is. You're talking about maybe a few tenths of a dB. If you just turn your volume down a quarter of a dB, you won't even notice that it's quieter. It's just not enough to matter.
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Knowing that things can get nasty very quickly makes me think that even 1% improvement could have a very major impact.
Calling it even a minute impact would be an exaggeration. As a general rule of thumb, if you are at clipping, you should probably be thinking about doubling your power, nothing less.
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post #637 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

Thanks guys, and yes I AM starting to get it, but please understand that your posts often "beg the question".

No problem as long as the questions aren't trapped in a loop.
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For example, how can you say a 10% cushion isn't material

Because as I've shown there is already a 10,000% cushion. This is an example of trapping a discussion in a loop.
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but then say "For much of an amp's usable range, THD does not increase with output, at least to a first approximation.
In most cases, it's pretty much uniformly flat until you get close to clipping. Then it increases very rapidly."

It's all true, but you keep skipping over the 10,000% cushion that is already there, regardless. Your posts seem to be obsessed with this 10% cushion but you never seem to notice the 10,000% cushion. This paints a picture of someone who is obsessed with a sliver in your finger while there is a 4 x 4 beam stuck in their eye!

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One would think that an extra 10% cushion might be the difference between staying in the happy flat zone vs. going into the rapidly increasing THD zone.

Why should one do that? Your posts are living proof of a relentless concern with a 10% cushion while in reality there is already a 10,000% cushion. Can you grasp the difference?
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Knowing that things can get nasty very quickly makes me think that even 1% improvement could have a very major impact.

By ignoring it, you already seem to be saying that a 10,000% improvement is meaningless to you. Why the obsession with a mere 10%?
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To use the car analogy: good brakes might stop you in 10 feet, but cheaper brakes will stop you in 11 feet - it's only a 10% difference right?,

But you are ignoring that the car actually stops in 1/100 of that - an inch or two. That's the difference that the 10,000% cushion already makes.

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post #638 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 08:12 AM
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post #639 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 08:45 AM
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I hear all of you - thanks. I guess my confusion comes from the million articles I've read talking about amps sounding strained and underpowered, which implies distortion is indeed audible. If I understand all of you correctly, the amp will sound perfectly fine until it suddenly clips, and there is nothing in between... this contradicts virtually every "expert" article I've ever read. Can someone resolve this apparent contradition? I remain confused.

Also, as I've stated before, my goal is NOT to increase the volume. I fully appreciate that 10% more power will have no impact on the volume, heck even 100% more power has little impact on volume. The goal, however, is cleaner less distorted sound at a given volume.

Yes, of course the easy solution is to turn down the volume by just a hair, but I would have absolutely no way of knowing if and when that might be necessary, especially since you're telling me there is virtually no audible warning that the amp is being overdriven... frankly that alarms me, especially when listening to dynamic sound tracks, where the dialogue is so low you are forced to turn up the volume higher than normal. Nothing is more annoying than having to constantly change the volume during a movie... and no, sound compression isn't always enough to fix the problem with low dialogue. You seem to be assuming we all listen to even volume pink noise all the time smile.gif (just a joke)

What I'm gather here is that there ARE indeed minor benefits to passive biamping that will likely never be useful, but like an insurance policy, some people like to have it even though they will proabably never use it... and even if they do use it, the coverge is relatively minor. I'm fine with that.

EDIT:
Oh, and regarding the 10000% cushion, I get it, but if that were the case then how could any "expert" article/review claim a normally powered amp can be strained and underpowered under normal use? It just doesn't add up. Also, if there is a 10000% cushion then I would have thought a 30w amp would probably be enough for most people, but you disagree with that as well. I apologize if this argument sounds far fetched.
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post #640 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

I hear all of you - thanks. I guess my confusion comes from the million articles I've read talking about amps sounding strained and underpowered, which implies distortion is indeed audible. If I understand all of you correctly, the amp will sound perfectly fine until it suddenly clips, and there is nothing in between... this contradicts virtually every "expert" article I've ever read. Can someone resolve this apparent contradiction? I remain confused.

If you want to draw up a short list, list out all of the so-called experts that base their opinions on reliable listening tests (e.g. DBTs).

Everybody else's opinions are potentially contaminated by legends, rumors, and what they were told by someone they respected.

You have to admit that if you look at the relevant facts, such as the graph below, it is hard to explain why it would be any other way, no?



IME the primary reasons why amplifiers sound strained when you turn them up is:

(1) The distortion inherent in the human ear increases as SPLs increase above about 85 dB SPL. If you have the common condition called hyperacusis, this is far worse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis

(2) Distortion in loudspeakers which is always 10-100 times worse than amplifiers and often rises sharply as levels increase above 90 dB.

(3) Poor room acoustics can make loud levels more unpleasant.

The cynical view is that the big problem with items (1-3) is that there is not so much money to be easily made by trying to fix them. If you haven't noticed, telling people what they don't want to hear or haven't heard before isn't exactly a walk in the park. They have all these questions.... ;-)
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post #641 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:10 AM
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Once you learn that the entire audio hobby is riddled with misinformation, lies and agendas, you will start feeling better about things. If you read something in an audio magazine, you can pretty much ignore it since those magazines have the manufacturers' interests at heart, not yours. Amplifier manufacturers would prefer that you buy two amplifiers rather than just one and they are willing to mislead you in order to accomplish that. Since the audio industry preys on peoples' natural hearing bias, it all works for them.

Let me recap reality for you. There is no question that passive biamplification has theoretical benefits. There is no question that passive biamplification has little or no practical benefits. Someone said earlier that the better approach to resolving inadequate amplifier power to reach the SPL you desire is to employ a larger amplifier. That is the correct answer. Simple enough, no?
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post #642 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If you want to draw up a short list, list out all of the so-called experts that base their opinions on reliable listening tests (e.g. DBTs).
You need double blind tests to hear clipping distortion? Since when? Do you have trouble hearing clipping distortion Arny? If not, please describe what it sounds like and why.
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Everybody else's opinions are potentially contaminated by legends, rumors, and what they were told by someone they respected.
Hopefully present company is excluded. smile.gif
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You have to admit that if you look at the relevant facts, such as the graph below, it is hard to explain why it would be any other way, no?

Nope smile.gif. The graph doesn't tell you what happens when you are listening to music. And how things work in real amplifiers as opposed to idealized paper ones.

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post #643 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:19 AM
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I guess my confusion comes from the million articles I've read talking about amps sounding strained and underpowered, which implies distortion is indeed audible. If I understand all of you correctly, the amp will sound perfectly fine until it suddenly clips, and there is nothing in between... this contradicts virtually every "expert" article I've ever read. Can someone resolve this apparent contradition?
All of those so-called experts are, in one way or another, in the business of trying to get you to buy more (expensive) audio gear. The are echoed all over the Web by people who have willingly put their faith in salesmen's patter. The facts say different.
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especially since you're telling me there is virtually no audible warning that the amp is being overdriven
Who told you that? Clipping distortion, once it becomes audible, isn't hard to miss. And if it's not audible, then you aren't really overdriving your amp.
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Oh, and regarding the 10000% cushion, I get it, but if that were the case then how could any "expert" article/review claim a normally powered amp can be strained and underpowered under normal use?
Anybody can claim anything. But it's a mistake to put too much faith in people whose income derives from advertisements for the very stuff they're writing about. That doesn't mean they're always wrong, but caveat lector.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #644 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Who told you that? Clipping distortion, once it becomes audible, isn't hard to miss.
Arny just did. He said you need DBT before anything you say about hearing clipping is considered valid. You are in agreement with me so I wonder where that leaves Arny.
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And if it's not audible, then you aren't really overdriving your amp.
"It is not audible" is a subjective thing. If you don't know what to look for here, would you have equal success to someone who does?
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Anybody can claim anything. But it's a mistake to put too much faith in people whose income derives from advertisements for the very stuff they're writing about. That doesn't mean they're always wrong, but caveat lector.
Fair enough. The question then becomes which one of these occasions this one is. smile.gif BTW, do people who fight this concept have no motive? They say everything with no land to defend?

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post #645 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Who told you that? Clipping distortion, once it becomes audible, isn't hard to miss.

Agreed

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Originally Posted by amir 
Arny just did. He said you need DBT before anything you say about hearing clipping is considered valid.

No I didn't.

I said:

"If you want to draw up a short list, list out all of the so-called experts that base their opinions on reliable listening tests (e.g. DBTs)."

This in turn referred to this:

"I guess my confusion comes from the million articles I've read talking about amps sounding strained and underpowered, which implies distortion is indeed audible.

and the context for that was distortion in the in 0.001 to 0.1 % range.

Now it is true that very early clipping is in the 0.001 to 0.1 % range, but it takes a lot of spinning to turn that into
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Arny just did. He said you need DBT before anything you say about hearing clipping is considered valid.

Sometimes correcting Amir's posts reminds me of playing traffic cop in kindergarten. ;-)
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post #646 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 09:47 AM
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"It is not audible" is a subjective thing.

Two words: Fletcher Munson.
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post #647 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post



Nope smile.gif. The graph doesn't tell you what happens when you are listening to music.

That would be a matter of interpretation. Since you said nothing specific, it seems safe to conclude that you know of nothing that is specifically wrong.
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And how things work in real amplifiers as opposed to idealized paper ones.

The Emotiva XPA-100 is a paper amplifier? Can we interpret that to mean that you aren't an authorized dealer for them? ;-)
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post #648 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That would be a matter of interpretation. Since you said nothing specific, it seems safe to conclude that you know of nothing that is specifically wrong.
No, I am just pacing myself. biggrin.gif
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The Emotiva XPA-100 is a paper amplifier? Can we interpret that to mean that you aren't an authorized dealer for them? ;-)
No, it is not a paper amp. But you don't seem to know what is in it (or just about any other commercial power amplifier). You like to post the schematic of it and I will show? If you don't have it, post a block diagram of how you think it is designed.

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post #649 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That would be a matter of interpretation. Since you said nothing specific, it seems safe to conclude that you know of nothing that is specifically wrong.
No, I am just pacing myself. biggrin.gif

If you were truely pacing yourself Amir, you would not make claims that you are unprepared to back up.

Quote:
The Emotiva XPA-100 is a paper amplifier? Can we interpret that to mean that you aren't an authorized dealer for them? ;-)
No, it is not a paper amp. But you don't seem to know what is in it .[/quote]

Amir, since I designed a 400+ wpc SS power amp from scratch that performed to commercial standards a few decades back...
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post #650 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Amir, since I designed a 400+ wpc SS power amp from scratch that performed to commercial standards a few decades back...
OK then. Post a schematic of that.

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post #651 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Let me recap reality for you. There is no question that passive biamplification has theoretical benefits. There is no question that passive biamplification has little or no practical benefits. Someone said earlier that the better approach to resolving inadequate amplifier power to reach the SPL you desire is to employ a larger amplifier. That is the correct answer. Simple enough, no?

Yes, I totally agree. Good recap.

But again (for like the 4th time) sometimes a larger amp is NOT possible... (size, weight, etc) smile.gif

Ok, if I can't trust magazine review then I go back to one of my early points: we should all just buy $200 HT in a box... no need for more power, better amps, etc, etc. Note: I do not believe this, but I'm making a point that there has to be SOME truth to what the industry is selling us.
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post #652 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

Yes, I totally agree. Good recap.

But again (for like the 4th time) sometimes a larger amp is NOT possible... (size, weight, etc) smile.gif

Ok, if I can't trust magazine review then I go back to one of my early points: we should all just buy $200 HT in a box... no need for more power, better amps, etc, etc. Note: I do not believe this, but I'm making a point that there has to be SOME truth to what the industry is selling us.

If the amp isn't powerful enough for your needs and you don't have room for a larger one, then the second best solution is to turn down the volume if the amp is clipping. Passive biamplification isn't gong to solve the problem.

Of course there is some truth in the audio industry. Most of it is truth. When I said riddled with misrepresentations, lies etc I said riddled not dominated by them. You just have to understand that, because humans suffer from hearing bias, what you read about audio is sometimes reactions and beliefs rather than facts. It can be well meaning and not true. But it is not true regardless of the motivations. The high end audiophiles truly believe what they believe and refuse to accept that some of what they believe is clouded by hearing bias. I call it denial. Manufacturers play to that hearing bias and sometimes it is well meaning also.

The whole thing is really a mess. I stopped reading audio magazines about 15 years ago when I was cured of my audiophilia. After years of bias controlled listening, I'm very comfortable with the way things work because I understand them. Most people don't understand them. You will get pretty straight truth on this forum. That's why I frequent it.
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post #653 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post


But again (for like the 4th time) sometimes a larger amp is NOT possible... (size, weight, etc) smile.gif

Ok, if I can't trust magazine review then I go back to one of my early points: we should all just buy $200 HT in a box... no need for more power, better amps, etc, etc.
You clearly haven't read or refused to understand what you're being told about power.
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Note: I do not believe this, but I'm making a point that there has to be SOME truth to what the industry is selling us.
Actually no, there doesn't HAVE to be SOME truth. The industry thrives on those that are susceptible to the "if you tell a lie enough times" concept.

It seems you won't quit until you get the opinion you are looking for. I suggest another forum, this one chock full of those pesky evidence and fact people.
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post #654 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Amir, since I designed a 400+ wpc SS power amp from scratch that performed to commercial standards a few decades back...
OK then. Post a schematic of that.

Uhh, it was over 20 years ago. Amp and schematic went to the great unknown.
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post #655 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

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Let me recap reality for you. There is no question that passive biamplification has theoretical benefits. There is no question that passive biamplification has little or no practical benefits. Someone said earlier that the better approach to resolving inadequate amplifier power to reach the SPL you desire is to employ a larger amplifier. That is the correct answer. Simple enough, no?

Yes, I totally agree. Good recap.

But again (for like the 4th time) sometimes a larger amp is NOT possible... (size, weight, etc) smile.gif

A passable joke but not a very convincing reality or haven't you looked at some of the more sophisticated amps now on the market?
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Ok, if I can't trust magazine review then I go back to one of my early points: we should all just buy $200 HT in a box... no need for more power, better amps, etc, etc. Note: I do not believe this, but I'm making a point that there has to be SOME truth to what the industry is selling us.

Excluded middle argument based on a ludicrous example. The industry is very, very broad ranging from very rational to very unnnh imaginative. Parts of the industry are telling us well-founded stories while others specialize in woo-woo.

Actually fairly typical for a mature technology.
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post #656 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:23 PM
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If I am to trust all of your comments (as opposed to the industry and media), I need to believe the following:

1) no reasonably powered amp would ever clip or become audibly distorted under normal use since there is 10000% headroom. Sounds far fetched, sorry.

2) even if the above point is wrong, turning down the volume by a hair will avoid any audible distortion or clipping. Sadly this advice is simply impractical for soundtracks where you occassionaly need to turn the volume way up for quiet dialogue.

3) we are better off buying a bigger amp. No one disputed this point, but you keep bringing up. For some of us this is not possible, so this advice is/was/remains utterly unhelpful.

In conclusion I see very little reason NOT to passively biamp if it's easy to do. At worst it's not needed, but it might (might!) make the difference between audible distortion and smooth sweet music. Call it a thin margin of insurance that you either care about or not.

EDIT:
some of you like to say I am ignoring the facts and only hear what I want to hear. Far from it. I have acknowledged and accepted ever credible fact. I acknowledge that a stronger amp is definitely the appropriate solution and that passive biamping probably does nothing, and at best has very little impact. Some of you, OTOH, don't like to hear how some of your opinions are not very helpful in the real world and that your facts sometimes contradict each other.
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post #657 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:46 PM
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A passable joke but not a very convincing reality or haven't you looked at some of the more sophisticated amps now on the market?

You mean class D amps? Can I trust the reviewers who say they sound like complete crap? (query: whose interest are they serving by thoroughly trashing their advertisers' brand new products??) Seems that the only class D amps that get decent reviews are very expensive. So, sorry, not helpful advice, again. But seriously - do you have one to recommend? smile.gif
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post #658 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

If I am to trust all of your comments (as opposed to the industry and media), I need to believe the following:

1) no reasonably powered amp would ever clip or become audibly distorted under normal use since there is 10000% headroom. Sounds far fetched, sorry.

False argument on the grounds of being an excluded middle argument. Sorry.
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2) even if the above point is wrong, turning down the volume by a hair will avoid any audible distortion or clipping. Sadly this advice is simply impractical for soundtracks where you occassionaly need to turn the volume way up for quiet dialogue.

I guess you don't understand that even if you turn up the volume for quiet dialogue it does not take an inordinate amount of power to reproduce the quiet dialogue because it is well, quiet. You appear to be making the error that turning up the volume necessarily required delivering large amounts of power to the speakers.
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3) we are better off buying a bigger amp. No one disputed this point, but you keep bringing up. For some of us this is not possible, so this advice is/was/remains utterly unhelpful.

An ineffective alternative is no better than doing nothing at all, so if your only alternative is ineffective a rational person would do nothing.
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In conclusion I see very little reason NOT to passively biamp if it's easy to do. At worst it's not needed, but it might (might!) make the difference between audible distortion and smooth sweet music.

That last clause is the gist of the argument, and since you apparently falsely and self-servingly conceded it to yourself, I guess I have no alternative but to laugh at you behind your back while you conduct the audio equivalent of masterbation.
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Call it a thin margin of insurance that you either care about or not.

Apparently the word ineffective has no or little meaning to you.

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:some of you like to say I am ignoring the facts and only hear what I want to hear. Far from it. I have acknowledged and accepted ever credible fact.

Well that's true as you self-servingly define credible.
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I acknowledge that a stronger amp is definitely the appropriate solution and that passive biamping probably does nothing, and at best has very little impact.

Wow ,so rational words can show up in your posts. Congratulations!
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Some of you, OTOH, don't like to hear how some of your opinions are not very helpful in the real world and that your facts sometimes contradict each other.

There are people posting on this thread who have conceded more to passive biamping than reality allows. That is their problem, not mine.

perfect example of setting up a bunch of questionable criteria in an apparent effort to continue denial of sceince.
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post #659 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 12:52 PM
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A passable joke but not a very convincing reality or haven't you looked at some of the more sophisticated amps now on the market?

You mean class D amps?

Actually I mean class G/H amps with switchmode power supplies.

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Can I trust the reviewers who say they sound like complete crap?

No, of course not.

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Seems that the only class D amps that get decent reviews are very expensive.

You apparently give too much credibility to the woo-woo school of audio reviewing. Sorry!
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So, sorry, not helpful advice, again. But seriously - do you have one to recommend? smile.gif

I know for sure that Crown XTi series amps sound great particularly the Xti 1000 and 2000. The rest look good on paper but I haven't had the pleasure of actually hearing them.
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post #660 of 1044 Old 11-26-2013, 01:01 PM
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^^
sorry too much to read right now. About turning up the volume for quiet dialogue: um, how do I put this: you turn it up for the quiet parts but you can't predict when you'll need to turn it down for the next loud scene, so it's inevitable that the you will be drawing lots of power when the volume suddenly gets louder. Hello!!!! This is what I mean by completely impractical advice in the real world. And nothing is more annoying than constantly turning the volume up and down. Sheesh, this is exhausting, it's as if none of you have ever actually listened to real movies/music on your systems! smile.gif

Class G/H eh?... interesting, will consider for my next upgrade. Thanks!!! FINALLY some practical advice. Only took 20+ pages. But they better not cost an arm and a leg, otherwise it ain't practical advice anymore smile.gif
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