Question on bi-amping - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 05:42 PM
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If you want to do it, do it.

If you think it sounds better, you win. If it you think it doesn't, well, you tried.

If you want to argue about it, this is the place.
PrimeTime likes this.

I'll be back later...


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post #1052 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
You were planning on removing the crossovers from the speakers?
If this is what he's thinking, he's asking questions that show he is far below the knowledge level needed to actually pull it off well.
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post #1053 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 05:51 PM
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I thought the reason the AVR manual says to remove the straps between the two sets of terminals on the back of the speaker enclosure when bi-amping is to bypass the crossover and feed each driver separately.

Now I'm having trouble visualizing what the wiring inside such a speaker enclosure would be that has that kind of two pairs of binding posts with both red terminals strapped together and both black ones strapped together - how would tying them together or not on the way in control whether the crossover is used?

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post #1054 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
If you want to do it, do it.

If you think it sounds better, you win. If it you think it doesn't, well, you tried.

If you want to argue about it, this is the place.
I thought this was the room for abuse.

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post #1055 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 05:54 PM
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Here's what my "crossover" looks like:



A low pass for the woofer, at the bottom, and a highpass at the top, for not the woofer.

Strap the inputs and use one pair of wires, or unstrap and use two.

I'll be back later...


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post #1056 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
I thought the reason the AVR manual says to remove the straps between the two sets of terminals on the back of the speaker enclosure when bi-amping is to bypass the crossover and feed each driver separately.

Now I'm having trouble visualizing what the wiring inside such a speaker enclosure would be that has that kind of two pairs of binding posts with both red terminals strapped together and both black ones strapped together - how would tying them together or not on the way in control whether the crossover is used?
Yes, you remove the straps joining the terminals on the back of the speaker, but the two sections of the xovers are still being used inside the speaker. The straps are there to allow using the speakers in the normal way using a single amplifier. If there were only one set of terminals on the back of the speaker, then the 'strap' is simply a piece of wire inside the speaker joining the two sections together (in parallel) to enable it to work correctly.
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post #1057 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Here's what my "crossover" looks like:



A low pass for the woofer, at the bottom, and a highpass at the top, for not the woofer.

Strap the inputs and use one pair of wires, or unstrap and use two.
The implication being that you're going through the bandpass filters regardless of whether the terminals are tied together - the only difference being that tied together the signal can follow the path of least resistance for its frequency, while split the bandpass filters actually have to work harder if each is fed a full range signal, since there's nowhere else for the out-of-band signals to go!

Hence the need for line-level bandpass filtering before the power amps. If the AVR doesn't do that, stay away from AVR bi-amping.

Got it.

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post #1058 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
I thought the reason the AVR manual says to remove the straps between the two sets of terminals on the back of the speaker enclosure when bi-amping is to bypass the crossover and feed each driver separately.

Now I'm having trouble visualizing what the wiring inside such a speaker enclosure would be that has that kind of two pairs of binding posts with both red terminals strapped together and both black ones strapped together - how would tying them together or not on the way in control whether the crossover is used?
The straps, as indicated above, connect the high and low pass sections of the crossover. Connecting separate amps to the two sets of terminals without removing the straps is not really different from connecting the two amps' outputs directly together because the straps present way way lower impedance than the crossover sections and tweeter or woofer. It's a great way to destroy the amps.
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post #1059 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
If I took off the straps on those speakers, and ran a second set of speaker cables to each, can I rely on Yamaha to properly configure active bi-amping? There doesn't appear to be any configuration settings for that shown in the manual other than setting it to use those channels to bi-amp rather than as presence or second zone speakers.
Sadly not. True bi-amp setups have an independent active crossover across each channel before the power amplifier stage, which limits the signal content to the required range for the respective low and high frequency outputs to the speakers. Consumer grade manufacturers don't go this far. They just feed the same full content to all channels.

That said, consumer receivers do have a crossover setting in them but that's only to filter out the bottom end (up to 250Hz typically) from the full range speakers when there's a subwoofer to fill the gap. True active bi-amps need to split between the low and high frequency outputs at a much higher point, at least 2kHz in a 2-way speaker.

I've converted my Denon AVR-X3000 into an active bi-amp configuration by physically modifying the amp internally. I've intercepted the four line level channels between the pre-amp and power amp and wired them accordingly to an Ashly XR-1001 stereo active crossover unit. I'm driving a pair of JBL LS40 bookshelf speakers with the crossover point set to 2.4kHz.

I didn't do it for clarity's sake though. I did it to run the amp more efficiently so that I'm not stressing the power amp's driving components as much. Sure, I could've bought a bigger amp to achieve the same objective but where would be the fun in that for this nerd?
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post #1060 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artstar View Post
Sadly not. True bi-amp setups have an independent active crossover across each channel before the power amplifier stage, which limits the signal content to the required range for the respective low and high frequency outputs to the speakers. Consumer grade manufacturers don't go this far. They just feed the same full content to all channels.

That said, consumer receivers do have a crossover setting in them but that's only to filter out the bottom end (up to 250Hz typically) from the full range speakers when there's a subwoofer to fill the gap. True active bi-amps need to split between the low and high frequency outputs at a much higher point, at least 2kHz in a 2-way speaker.

I've converted my Denon AVR-X3000 into an active bi-amp configuration by physically modifying the amp internally. I've intercepted the four line level channels between the pre-amp and power amp and wired them accordingly to an Ashly XR-1001 stereo active crossover unit. I'm driving a pair of JBL LS40 bookshelf speakers with the crossover point set to 2.4kHz.

I didn't do it for clarity's sake though. I did it to run the amp more efficiently so that I'm not stressing the power amp's driving components as much. Sure, I could've bought a bigger amp to achieve the same objective but where would be the fun in that for this nerd?
FWIW tyhere was one fairly recent consumer receiver with active crossover capabilities, the Onkyo 818.
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post #1061 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 07:43 PM
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I should've bought the 818 then! I wonder if that had a built-in DLNA media player?

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post #1062 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 08:01 PM
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I should've bought the 818 then!
Why? It's very limited in it's abilities compared to even the basic MiniDSP.
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post #1063 of 1067 Old 05-24-2015, 10:20 PM
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Yeah. Read up on it. I remember looking into that thing while fishing around for something to take the place of my Denon 1908. I'm glad I landed the X3000 at the right price. Pity the media player isn't that stable though.

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post #1064 of 1067 Old 05-25-2015, 02:49 PM
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Yeah. Read up on it. I remember looking into that thing while fishing around for something to take the place of my Denon 1908. I'm glad I landed the X3000 at the right price. Pity the media player isn't that stable though.

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As a fan of discrete surround audio (mostly bought online from iTrax in California or ripped to my hard drive from my DVD-A and Blu-ray disks), I use the DLNA player built into my Oppo BDP-93, since the DLNA players built into even the newest Yamaha Aventages play them only in stereo - the Oppos can play 5.1 FLACs in their full glory.
Yes, the network file browser in the 93 is crude, but I can't use tag-based players because I use "junction" folders to cross-index albums under multiple musicians' names, which tag-based players see as multiple copies of each track - so they play every virtual copy of a track before advancing to the next track in the album: 1,1,1,2,2,2, etc.

So I set up a nested index folder:
A - G
H - M.
etc. with each letter getting its own subfolder, and when scrolling through a letter gets tedious, I'll subdivide a letter into further subfolders encyclopedia-style: Sa - Sm, Sn - Sz

This way, I can drill down to find an album under an artist or composer fairly quickly.

The index should not contain any actual music files, which should live in a separate library tree. No links in the index should point directly to anywhere else in the index. (If they do, rearranging the index structure will break links.)

Once this is set up, you can then use foobar2000 with its foo_upnp plugin to create a second UPnP server to syndicate your index folder over the internet to other such setups using the BubbleUPnP servier (all of these are Windows freeware). For $5, you can buy a license for a copy of BubbleUPnP to run on your Android phone or tablet, and listen on the go. You can set the relay to Android to play in full resolution stereo when on WiFi and to send as an MP3 when using the phone company's data connection.

Plus, foobar and the BubbleUPnP Android client each has a search function, something I'd dearly like to have on the Oppo!

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post #1065 of 1067 Old 05-25-2015, 03:35 PM
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Good god, that sounds tedious, the audio equivalent of self circumcision with a blunt rock.
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post #1066 of 1067 Old 05-25-2015, 05:17 PM
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Agreed. I'd rather live with having to power cycle the X3000 when it crashes now and then.

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post #1067 of 1067 Old 05-25-2015, 05:33 PM
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I simply use a HTPC with JRiver which plays everything I throw at it (I have no DSD material however) played either directly from the server or local HDD. The HTPC cost less to build than a region unlocked Oppo costs here (i7-3770 and R9-280 equipped) and is a breeze to use.
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