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post #1 of 1044 Old 09-26-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just a hypothetical question. If I wanted to bi-amp my system using 2 x stereo power amp (1 for high and 1 for low frequency), I imagine I would need 2 x pre out (2 x left and 2 x right) to connect to back of an receiver.

Let's take the Marantz SR5007. Marantz SR5007 has set of pre out for a 7.1 ch amplifier connection (2 x front, 2 x Surround, 2 x Surround Back and 1 x centre, 2 x sub (which I won't use). Where would you connect the 4 x output from Rotel into the pre out of back of the receiver? I assume a splitter is needed?

Would this type of set up be of any benefit? Is this still passive bi-amping, not active? I'm not clued up on passive vs active. Any technical explanations would be most helpful.
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post #2 of 1044 Old 09-26-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Just a hypothetical question. If I wanted to bi-amp my system using 2 x stereo power amp (1 for high and 1 for low frequency), I imagine I would need 2 x pre out (2 x left and 2 x right) to connect to back of an receiver.

An ordinary RCA cable spliter is all that would be required.

Or you go completely crazy and attach one of these to the L& R outputs, and note that it has 4 outputs:

http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4

Change the wiring inside the speaker to bring direct runs to the drivers, and adjust the MiniDSP properly.

That would be called "advanced technology"
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Let's take the Marantz SR5007. Marantz SR5007 has set of pre out for a 7.1 ch amplifier connection (2 x front, 2 x Surround, 2 x Surround Back and 1 x centre, 2 x sub (which I won't use). Where would you connect the 4 x output from Rotel into the pre out of back of the receiver? I assume a splitter is needed?

Exactly. a splitter. Real fancy ones are about $10.
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Would this type of set up be of any benefit? Is this still passive bi-amping, not active?

If you got the MiniDSP 2x4 (under $120) it would be active biamping, AKA "The real thing".
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I'm not clued up on passive vs active. Any technical explanations would be most helpful.

Passive biamping = audiophile myth

Active biamping can actually bear audible fruit if you do it right.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm
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post #3 of 1044 Old 09-26-2013, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
If you got the MiniDSP 2x4 (under $120) it would be active biamping, AKA "The real thing".

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but in my example if I use two stereo power amps, use a splitter and connect it to an AVR without the MiniDSP, would that be passive bi-amping? Would that be no different to just selecting bi-amp mode in my AVR, but with two power amps?
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post #4 of 1044 Old 09-26-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk 
If you got the MiniDSP 2x4 (under $120) it would be active biamping, AKA "The real thing".

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but in my example if I use two stereo power amps, use a splitter and connect it to an AVR without the MiniDSP, would that be passive bi-amping?

The reference I linked in my previous post called passive bi-amping "fools biamping", and that is a very correct assessment.
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Would that be no different to just selecting bi-amp mode in my AVR, but with two power amps?

Yes, equally foolish either way.
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post #5 of 1044 Old 09-26-2013, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What difference would removing the links on the speakers make?
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post #6 of 1044 Old 09-26-2013, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've heard that an active crossover would be needed for proper bi-amping. Where would one find an active crossover?
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post #7 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 12:59 AM
 
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I'm using 2 x Rotel rb970bx power amps and I'm bi-amping my speakers using the preouts on my receiver. Each power amp is 2 x 60 watts, so that I'm getting 120 watts per channel when bi-amping.
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post #8 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Just a hypothetical question. If I wanted to bi-amp my system using 2 x stereo power amp (1 for high and 1 for low frequency), I imagine I would need 2 x pre out (2 x left and 2 x right) to connect to back of an receiver.

Let's take the Marantz SR5007. Marantz SR5007 has set of pre out for a 7.1 ch amplifier connection (2 x front, 2 x Surround, 2 x Surround Back and 1 x centre, 2 x sub (which I won't use). Where would you connect the 4 x output from Rotel into the pre out of back of the receiver? I assume a splitter is needed?

Would this type of set up be of any benefit? Is this still passive bi-amping, not active? I'm not clued up on passive vs active. Any technical explanations would be most helpful.

Active bi-amping is having seperate amp for the high and low. Its the comparison between a dedicated stereo amp and monoblocks. You will benefit in terms of clarity and dynamics.
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post #9 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 01:33 AM
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^^ baloney.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #10 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 01:36 AM
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"I'm using 2 x Rotel rb970bx power amps and I'm bi-amping my speakers using the preouts on my receiver. Each power amp is 2 x 60 watts, so that I'm getting 120 watts per channel when bi-amping."

that's not correct.

the voltage from each amp is the same. the resistance from each portion of the crossover network is the same. as a result, even with two amps, power is the same.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #11 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 01:39 AM
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"I've heard that an active crossover would be needed for proper bi-amping. Where would one find an active crossover?"

there are many of them and usually found at pro audio stores, such as http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Crossovers--2752

the behringer dcx2496 is quite popular as is the mini-dsp around here.

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post #12 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 01:58 AM
 
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LTD02, my Rotel manual specifies they can be used for bi-amping purposes and even gives a wiring diagram for it. How can 2 x 60 watt stereo amplifiers still give 60 watts per speaker?
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post #13 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 
there are many of them and usually found at pro audio stores, such as http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Crossovers--2752

Thanks, I'll take a look at that. Can you explain what exactly the benefits would be to using an active crossover. I know people say that when bi-amping, you need to remove the speaker links. What is the purpose behind that?
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post #14 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 02:21 AM
 
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Here is a diagram of my Rotel amp for bi-amping or are the engineers at Rotel clueless?

Rotel Bi-amping.png 428k .png file
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File Type: png Rotel Bi-amping.png (428.3 KB, 81 views)
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post #15 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

LTD02, my Rotel manual specifies they can be used for bi-amping purposes and even gives a wiring diagram for it. How can 2 x 60 watt stereo amplifiers still give 60 watts per speaker?

Power amps can't give speakers any more power than the speakers will take. Its one of those nasty laws of physics.

Power amp manufacturers offer advice about setting up passive biamping because they hope that it will allow them to sell more amps.

Its just like the fact that dealers push bi wiring because it will allow them to sell more speaker wire.
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post #16 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 03:24 AM
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The basic problem, Ollie, is that the normal audiophile passive biamplification procedure uses the passive crossover network inside the cabinet. One amp is connected to one end of the crossover and the other to the other end. The end result is nothing. You can put them both on the same end and get the same nothingness. The purpose of biamplifying is to segregate the drivers and control them independently. That means disconnecting the passive network and replacing it with an active crossover located between the preamp (mixer in the case of pro audio) and the power amps. Biamplifying and biwiring in the normal consumer context does absolutely nothing other than cost the manufacturer and consumer a second set of binding posts on the speaker cabitnet.

One point. Biamplifying in the consumer sense does add power to speakers. But it is fair also to understand that most amplifiers are significantly overpowered for what they have to do. Biwiring does absolutely nothing other than add the cost of the wire to your system.
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post #17 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Here is a diagram of my Rotel amp for bi-amping or are the engineers at Rotel clueless?

Rotel Bi-amping.png 428k .png file

No, they are doing what they are told to do. The biamplifying stuff is about marketing, not audio. Understand that doubling the available power for a speaker simply provides more overhead, not a difference in sound. If a speaker needs 10 watts to operate properly, then giving it 200 watts is no different than giving it 100 watts. It simply increases the electric bill.
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post #18 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I've heard that an active crossover would be needed for proper bi-amping. Where would one find an active crossover?

Yes and it involves removing or disconnecting the passive network inside the speaker cabinet. There is simply no reason for a consumer to do it. That's why there aren't any active crossovers in the consumer marketplace (other than items like the Mini DSP Arny talked about.) The active crossovers are all in the pro audio domain./
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post #19 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by FMW 
The basic problem, Ollie, is that the normal audiophile passive biamplification procedure uses the passive crossover network inside the cabinet. One amp is connected to one end of the crossover and the other to the other end. The end result is nothing. You can put them both on the same end and get the same nothingness.

Thanks for your reply. I always thought bi-amping could increase power to speakers. So 2 x 100 stereo power amps will still only deliver 2 x 100 watts or 100 watts per speaker. Very interesting stuff, but it is confusing. There is a lot of marketing out there that doesn't help the situation.
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Yes and it involves removing or disconnecting the passive network inside the speaker cabinet. There is simply no reason for a consumer to do it. That's why there aren't any active crossovers in the consumer marketplace (other than items like the Mini DSP Arny talked about.) The active crossovers are all in the pro audio domain./

You don't feel it is worthwhile to go this route? To get an active crossover or is just a lot of work to get good results?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW 
The biamplifying stuff is about marketing, not audio. Understand that doubling the available power for a speaker simply provides more overhead, not a difference in sound. If a speaker needs 10 watts to operate properly, then giving it 200 watts is no different than giving it 100 watts. It simply increases the electric bill.

So all these manufactures are just using marketing schemes to make more money? It's all just marketing? There is no truth to any of it? That sounds pretty far fetched. So all speaker manufactures and amp manufactures are fooling consumers. Right.
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post #21 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW 
The biamplifying stuff is about marketing, not audio. Understand that doubling the available power for a speaker simply provides more overhead, not a difference in sound. If a speaker needs 10 watts to operate properly, then giving it 200 watts is no different than giving it 100 watts. It simply increases the electric bill.

So all these manufactures are just using marketing schemes to make more money?

Yes.
Quote:
It's all just marketing?

Yes.
Quote:
There is no truth to any of it?

No truth.
Quote:
That sounds pretty far fetched.

Only if you drink the cool aid.
Quote:
So all speaker manufactures and amp manufactures are fooling consumers. Right.

False claim. Lots of speaker and amp manufacturers don't recommend passive biamping.

Here's your challenge, Heinrich. Find serious amp manufacturers like Crown or QSC recommending passive biamping.
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post #22 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 07:07 AM
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- If you have a 100 W amp applied to the bass and treble you get 100 W and that is the maximum seen by either frequency band.

- If you use two 100 W amps the bass sees 100 W and the treble sees 100 W. There can be headroom benefits with an active crossover but the max power each frequency band sees is still just 100 W. There is no more voltage to be had from the amps, you don't get 200 W to anything. Using passive bi-amping as implemented by the vast majority of AVRs there's not even a significant increase in headroom because both amplifiers still see the entire signal band.

- If you really want to play louder, get a bigger amp.

Even without removing the passive crossover inside the speaker, assuming there are terminals for the HPF and LPF (bass and treble) on the speaker, an active crossover before the PAs will improve their headroom (that of the power amplifiers). That does offer some benefit, though of course how audible depends on other things and is (as always) debatable. I have always seen (heard, measured) the biggest benefits after removing the passive crossovers and driving the drivers directly.

I hesitate to bring it up, but there are potential theoretical benefits from passive bi-amping due to lower power demands. I cannot imagine audible benefits, however, for any reasonable system.

All IMO since I've learned everything is an opinion including all the physics and engineering I've ever learned... smile.gif

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post #23 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post


You don't feel it is worthwhile to go this route? To get an active crossover or is just a lot of work to get good results?

No, the manufacturers go through a lot of trouble to design the speakers and their crossover networks to achieve a good performance - at least in an anechoic chamber. You aren't likely to do any better with an active crossover without the measurement equipment and experience of a pro audio sound technician.
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post #24 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So all these manufactures are just using marketing schemes to make more money? It's all just marketing? There is no truth to any of it? That sounds pretty far fetched. So all speaker manufactures and amp manufactures are fooling consumers. Right.

I can't imagine why you are surprised. It isn't any different than a cable manufacturer claiming his Toslink cable provides more air, pace and rhythm. Digital data doesn't have those characteristics in the first place. How would you improve on that.. Or better how would a passive cable know which bits of information to reverse and then reverse it? Obviously, not possible. Obviously nothing but marketing. Even common sense gets you there. High end audio is the world's chamption at snake oil marketing thanks to our human hearing bias and the willingness of others to take advantage of it.
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post #25 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW 
The biamplifying stuff is about marketing, not audio. Understand that doubling the available power for a speaker simply provides more overhead, not a difference in sound. If a speaker needs 10 watts to operate properly, then giving it 200 watts is no different than giving it 100 watts. It simply increases the electric bill.

So all these manufactures are just using marketing schemes to make more money?

Yes.
Quote:
It's all just marketing?

Yes.
Quote:
There is no truth to any of it?

No truth.
Quote:
That sounds pretty far fetched.

Only if you drink the cool aid.
Quote:
So all speaker manufactures and amp manufactures are fooling consumers. Right.

False claim. Lots of speaker and amp manufacturers don't recommend passive biamping.

Here's your challenge, Heinrich. Find serious amp manufacturers like Crown or QSC recommending passive biamping.

 

Not to mention serious speaker manufacturers like M&K who don't include a pointless additional set of speaker terminals on the back of their speakers.

 

Heinrich, have a read of this:

 



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post #26 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Here is a diagram of my Rotel amp for bi-amping or are the engineers at Rotel clueless?

Rotel Bi-amping.png 428k .png file

 

They know exactly what they are doing. They know that there are many uninformed and ignorant customers in the world and even more who don't have the faintest understanding of physics, electronics or acoustics.  Because of the general lack of understanding of the science behind AV, many unscrupulous manufacturers have sprung up to take advantage of this lack of understanding - they sell 'snake oil' products like $1,000 interconnects, cable supports, little 'beaks' to stick on your speakers and so on and on. All of this puts Rotel in a difficult position. They know that there are huge numbers of people who fall for all this audio nonsense. If they follow their own serious engineering beliefs and principles, they ignore rubbish like passive bi-amping. But then they lose out on sales to the people who believe in these audio fairies. So, to protect their commercial interests, they add these useless features. It costs them very little and is certainly better than losing large numbers of sales. They know the gimmicks don't do anything useful of course - but they have to sell product or they go out of business, and AV is a very competitive market.

 

All my life has been spent in advertising and marketing. I have had this sort of discussion more than once with manufacturers who implement pointless product features in order to maintai na competitive advantage in a marketplace which is largely ruled by ignorance. My advice to you: try to learn some of the science and don't be so easily taken in by marketing.

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post #27 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

- If you have a 100 W amp applied to the bass and treble you get 100 W and that is the maximum seen by either frequency band.

- If you use two 100 W amps the bass sees 100 W and the treble sees 100 W. There can be headroom benefits with an active crossover but the max power each frequency band sees is still just 100 W. There is no more voltage to be had from the amps, you don't get 200 W to anything. Using passive bi-amping as implemented by the vast majority of AVRs there's not even a significant increase in headroom because both amplifiers still see the entire signal band.

- If you really want to play louder, get a bigger amp.

Even without removing the passive crossover inside the speaker, assuming there are terminals for the HPF and LPF (bass and treble) on the speaker, an active crossover before the PAs will improve their headroom (that of the power amplifiers). That does offer some benefit, though of course how audible depends on other things and is (as always) debatable. I have always seen (heard, measured) the biggest benefits after removing the passive crossovers and driving the drivers directly.

I hesitate to bring it up, but there are potential theoretical benefits from passive bi-amping due to lower power demands. I cannot imagine audible benefits, however, for any reasonable system.

All IMO since I've learned everything is an opinion including all the physics and engineering I've ever learned... smile.gif

 

Don,

 

Nice post. I remove the passive crossover inside my Revel F32 only to separate lows from mid/highs. ¡The result is amazing! I'm using a Marchand X66 active crossover and I have even compared it to a Behringer CX2310. To my ears the audible results are just the same. The crossover frequency is set at 200Hz, BTW.

 

One positive feature or active biamping is that depending on the frequency selected the bass driver uses 20-50% of the power while mids/highs uses the rest. Using two amps you have headroom improvements to cope with peaks and resulting power demands when playing some very dynamic music.

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post #28 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 10:08 AM
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High end audio is the world's chamption at snake oil marketing thanks to our human hearing bias and the willingness of others to take advantage of it.

I think Complementary and Alternative Medicine has high end audio beat. One enriches charlatans, separates suckers from their money, and keeps the economic machine rolling along; the other does all that and poses a threat to public health. /end rant
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post #29 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 10:41 AM
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I think Complementary and Alternative Medicine has high end audio beat. One enriches charlatans, separates suckers from their money, and keeps the economic machine rolling along; the other does all that and poses a threat to public health. /end rant

I will consider myself corrected. smile.gif
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post #30 of 1044 Old 09-27-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


All my life has been spent in advertising and marketing. I have had this sort of discussion more than once with manufacturers who implement pointless product features in order to maintai na competitive advantage in a marketplace which is largely ruled by ignorance. My advice to you: try to learn some of the science and don't be so easily taken in by marketing.

One of my favorites is the difference between contact lenses that need to be changed daily and those that can be worn all week. The difference is nothing but the warranty and the marketing. The business world is full of these kinds of things. Using pseudo science as a sales tool is very common. Just look at any ad for anything sold in a health food store or any orally taken product designed to help you lose weight.
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