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post #31 of 54 Old 10-03-2013, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Toslink and digital-coax are actually identical, except for the medium. They both support two channels of PCM at 24 bits up to 96kHz. That's the spec, but some manufacturers have pushed the spec to include 192kHz. Support for 192kHz is spotty, with the small guys being the dominant adapters and the big guys steering clear. For support reasons, I suspect Marantz is in the latter category.

Exactly as I said before. I checked and my DAC (Adcom GDA-600) only supports 24 / 96k on SPDIF Toslink and Coax inputs and same with my brand new Oppo BDP-105 that has USB (host), USB (streaming), HDMI and SPDIF:

"supports up to 2ch / 96kHz PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS and AAC signal through its Optical and Coaxial audio inputs"

Just because the DAC used in your AVR runs at a higher sampling rate or uses a larger word size doesn't change the fact that it still uses SPDIF as inputs and as Mark says that is the original standard for that interface. There are a lot of reasons (quality, low level linearity, etc) to use a DAC that has higher specs that the input interface but that doesn't change the specs of the digital transport protocol.

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post #32 of 54 Old 10-04-2013, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridindirty View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Actually none of those formats sound any different from redbook 16/44.1 in blind listening comparisons.

So they say. cool.gif

The implication being that the ear's well known and thoroughly documented insensitivity to high sample rates and long data words is just word of mouth?
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post #33 of 54 Old 10-04-2013, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post


I know that I've read a dozen times in many different places that the max of S/PDIF (optical or coax) is 24/96k - in fact on this very forum there is a thread that states: "The maximum S/PDIF capacity is 96 KHz at 20bits with 24 bits optional for two channels." Which would seem to match up with your component's max capabilities even though its internal DACs have higher resolution.

I can probably find just about any kind of nonsense and out-and-out falsehood posted as revealed truth someplace on the web. Google is my friend! ;-)

Running 24/192 over coax is commonplace. If you want an eye-opener, Google on 24/192 SPDIF, and you will find long lists of relevant hardware and personal experiences.

I'm not denying that there is hardware out there that limits its SPDIF operations or at least its spec sheet to lower sample rates than 192 KHz. If memory serves I've broken those rules in a few cases not knowing that the spec sheet says that life over the coax ports stops at 96 KHz.

Of course from a practical standpoint, high sample rates are futile. If you want to engage in that kind of audio acrobatics for grins and giggles, there's no lack of hardware to do it with.
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post #34 of 54 Old 10-04-2013, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

PC > HDMI > AVR.

this

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post #35 of 54 Old 10-04-2013, 06:12 PM
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It appears the OP has got an older receiver that doesn't have any HDMI inputs. (whether it's an old favourite or he just recently purchased it second hand..?)

When I first started building up a FLAC collection on my PC, I used optical from a Asus Xonar ST soundcard. The ST didn't have a very good native ASIO driver and I always got different results depending what bit-perfect output driver I was using. I wasn't totally satisfied with sound quality.

Next I tried a USB DAC with analog in to the AVR. I felt the sound was a bit smoother with less top end digital harshness, but at the same time lost a bit of detail. Plus it was a bit buggy. If I turned the PC on before I turned the DAC on, the computer wouldn't see the DAC and configured its audio for a different device. Even adding other devices to other USB ports cause problems at times as well. It was a pain in the backside.

Then one day out of curiosity I decided to try audio over the HDMI from the video card. I was very surprised at how good it sounded..! None of the top end harshness I experienced with the Xonar ST soundcard and at the same time no softness and loss of detail I experienced with the USB DAC. Plus the convenience of use is less buggy and more user friendly and it will handle just about any format I throw at it. It was a win win on all counts.

It's a shame the OP doesn't have a more modern AVR that has HDMI.
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post #36 of 54 Old 10-07-2013, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

you risk coming off as a bit of a jerk. Granted, the specific post you responded to wasn't exactly the height of tact, either, but as my dad used to say about traffic backups, it's the second car that makes the line.
It was his second post like that and Ive read enough threads around here with him in it to see how he posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Hi Ridindirty,

Sorry that I'm so late to your thread.
Toslink and digital-coax are actually identical, except for the medium. They both support two channels of PCM at 24 bits up to 96kHz. That's the spec, but some manufacturers have pushed the spec to include 192kHz. Support for 192kHz is spotty, with the small guys being the dominant adapters and the big guys steering clear. For support reasons, I suspect Marantz is in the latter category.

As for the lossy formats, Toslink and digital-coax also supports Dolby-Digital 5.1 and DTS core.
Although there may be no way to input 192kHz digital-audio, there are many good reasons to process the audio at 192kHz. I suspect that Marantz is using an architecture where the DAC and some of the DSP firmware always runs at 192kHz, and all other signals are up-sampled prior to processing.
Thank you very much, by far the most informative post in the thread.

I bought a cheaper sound card (M Audio Revolution 7.1) just for the digtial coax out (not because its better per se, but because I like how solid the connection is and its cheap) but I cant seem to get that working now either. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post

Exactly as I said before. I checked and my DAC (Adcom GDA-600) only supports 24 / 96k on SPDIF Toslink and Coax inputs and same with my brand new Oppo BDP-105 that has USB (host), USB (streaming), HDMI and SPDIF:

"supports up to 2ch / 96kHz PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS and AAC signal through its Optical and Coaxial audio inputs"
Exactly as you said before... but Arnyk goes on to disagree with. Case in point buddy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I can probably find just about any kind of nonsense and out-and-out falsehood posted as revealed truth someplace on the web. Google is my friend! ;-)

Running 24/192 over coax is commonplace. If you want an eye-opener, Google on 24/192 SPDIF, and you will find long lists of relevant hardware and personal experiences.

I'm not denying that there is hardware out there that limits its SPDIF operations or at least its spec sheet to lower sample rates than 192 KHz. If memory serves I've broken those rules in a few cases not knowing that the spec sheet says that life over the coax ports stops at 96 KHz.

Of course from a practical standpoint, high sample rates are futile. If you want to engage in that kind of audio acrobatics for grins and giggles, there's no lack of hardware to do it with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The implication being that the ear's well known and thoroughly documented insensitivity to high sample rates and long data words is just word of mouth?
Yes, that is the implication, in a way. I have read your posts, I know you are thoroughly versed on this subject (probably more than anyone else on the forum... or at least you speak up more) and I know your standing. But when discussing rips of music, I find the 24/96+ to usually be of higher quality, and since there are so many variables I'd like to be able to play them. That being said, the AVR is playing 24/192 now, however I assumed at 96kHz, which is fine with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

It appears the OP has got an older receiver that doesn't have any HDMI inputs. (whether it's an old favourite or he just recently purchased it second hand..?)

When I first started building up a FLAC collection on my PC, I used optical from a Asus Xonar ST soundcard. The ST didn't have a very good native ASIO driver and I always got different results depending what bit-perfect output driver I was using. I wasn't totally satisfied with sound quality.

Next I tried a USB DAC with analog in to the AVR. I felt the sound was a bit smoother with less top end digital harshness, but at the same time lost a bit of detail. Plus it was a bit buggy. If I turned the PC on before I turned the DAC on, the computer wouldn't see the DAC and configured its audio for a different device. Even adding other devices to other USB ports cause problems at times as well. It was a pain in the backside.

Then one day out of curiosity I decided to try audio over the HDMI from the video card. I was very surprised at how good it sounded..! None of the top end harshness I experienced with the Xonar ST soundcard and at the same time no softness and loss of detail I experienced with the USB DAC. Plus the convenience of use is less buggy and more user friendly and it will handle just about any format I throw at it. It was a win win on all counts.

It's a shame the OP doesn't have a more modern AVR that has HDMI.

My AVR has a much better amp, transformers, etc than anything new I am willing to spend money on in an AVR form. I really dont want to go AMP + AVR preouts either. I appreciate you giving a response that is more in line with promoting discussion in this thread. So, this being said, can you bear with me? What soundcards have good native ASIO drivers? This sounds like another thing I have to start researching. frown.gif
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post #37 of 54 Old 10-07-2013, 10:10 PM
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Asus sound cards have decent Asio drivers once you get the drivers working also M-audio interface is OK , S/B might be also I can't say but maybe some on her knows .
there are unity drivers (non OEM avail for ASUS) also but I prefer the OEM drivers .


oh btw I did the coax vs optical thing for a long time on an Sony ES with some decent speakers and an ES SACD spinner as the source with

this was some years ago try as I might I couldn't hear a difference between coax and optical or 24/96 vs 24/192 even though I read somewhere Coax and 24/192 was supposed to be better.couldn't prove it by me .
I had it set up to where I just switched inputs on the AVR it supported 24/96 and 24/192 on both it was easy to go back and forth .

. In fact a well done 16/44.1 CD can sound just as good on 2ch to me anyway just saying . For the sake of not starting an argument I will say use what you prefer. It wasn't unusual a CD to sound as good or even better than an SADC either ofc a lot of SACD content is not native to that format either. I'm listening to some .flac rips right now on the studio phones through an pro interface sounds fine . I'm fine with coax or optical whichever is handy and or convenient . USB and HDMI works fine also. I use that in the rest of the house on the consumer gear . I'm not too particular about the cables I push ones and zeros through long as they all get there. It is theoretically possible for one input to sound better
than another depending on the quality of the conversions and audio stages in the various signal paths .In my particular case with that Sony AVR it sounded the same to me.

I can also say that from one day to another a particular a particular CD ,SACD or whatever might not sound as good *to me one one day as another on the same equipment at the same level (maybe it did likely ) but for whatever reason I might not have though so could have been the weather the sun the moon and tides , rocks in my head who knows ??
I learned to get over it .
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post #38 of 54 Old 10-07-2013, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Asus sound cards have decent Asio drivers once you get the drivers working also M-audio interface is OK , S/B might be also I can't say but maybe some on her knows .
there are unity drivers (non OEM avail for ASUS) also but I prefer the OEM drivers .

Thanks. I was looking at Asus, but it seems that the Asus's with Digital Coax out and 24/192 have built in headphones amps and a bunch of features I'd rather not have. Are there models without this but still have a Dig Coax out and 24/192?

I bought an older M Audio revolution 7.1 from ebay, but I cant get the AVR to recognize the signal. The setup is very antiquated on the M Audio side also, for instance I cant choose multiple outputs with the Digital out. its 44100 or 48000 or 96000, etc. Doesnt make sense to me, and doesnt seem to be integrating correctly with W7, although numerous other people seem to get it to work fine.
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post #39 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 05:50 AM
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No win 7 qualified drivers for your M-Audio Revolution 7.1 at M audio I logged in and checked Good news is I found some drivers.info below.

We have some m audio stuff and Avid pro tools here their legacy and new support sucks btw. out of all the people we deal with they have to be the worst even Aurturia all the way in France is much better except the time difference thing there are work arounds to get unsighned drivers to work but I don't like to invoke those that would only be a last resort but I would probably just get anothercard if it went that far. or put it in a nix box

Try the m audio vista x 64 driver below first if it doesent work or if you are on 32 bit windows just use the via chipset unified drivers further below
follow the procedures below exactly for either the m audio drivers or the via unified drivers

If it works fine ,if not remove it try the drivers from via below. You have a VIA / ICEnsemble's Envy24HT audio chip. the brits @ tech reports think it's pretty tits up btw. they like that m audio card .

Drivers below are straight from Via they make the controler chip on the m audio card .it's a unified win 7 64/32 bit driver and should work fine I'm sure Via had M$ sighn off on it chip mfrs are are usually pretty good about that stuff.

ODM chips are used in many different products and the vendors usually modify these drivers with whatever branded GUI eye candy they want to use they should othewise be fully functional .


First try these vista 64 bit drivers from m audio read procedures below and follow them exactly if after a few tries and if they don't work move on to the Via chipset drivers below These are the M audio Vista 64 drivers http://filedir.com/drivers/sound-card/m-audio-revolution-7-1-soundcard-driver-5-10-00-50-download-307742.html download links are clean work fine and tested ok.


Read procedure below

Audio's Revolution 7.1 sound card

Unified via Chipset driver

Via / ICEnsemble's Envy24HT audio chip

via chipset drver unified win 7x64 and win 7x86
http://www.via.com.tw/en/support/drivers.jsp

Follow this procedure exactly

*usually same for any sound or video card (well mostly for video cards anyway)

1 first disable on board audio in bios

2 remove any sound card drivers from device mgr
remove sound card shut down

3 load windows with no card and on board disabled

4 install drivers shut down install card

5 load windows you might have to do this exact thing (uninstall hdwe and drivers ) 2 or three times to get things working fist try re botting 2 or 3 times between driver re instals welcome to microsofta window ! world I'm sure the via chipset drivers will work


Just be glad you are not using ***nix with unsuported hardware and don't have to compile your own drivers but that's another, story Windows is cake by comparison .

I use chipset drivers all the time when vendor drivers are buggy or outdated especially on videocards or wireless.
devices .

If for whatever reason you decide you don't want the m audio card although it might be better for critical listening get an xonar DGX or something similar .
no need for an expensive card if you are not using the DAC or audio you just will use the controller and PCIe buffer anyway .

The M audio controller can sample 24/192 data and can output 24/192 to the DAC only the ADC is limited to 24/96 you aren't using that anyway with coax or optical outs . the 24/192 will pass through uninterrupted to PCM output optical or coaxial it will never see the ADC.

The 24/96 limitation applies in this case only to ADC in the analog audio output signal path that's it.

The m audio 24/96 ADC will only be used if recording audio or playing back audio directly from the card line level
or speaker /HP analog outs even though you likley coulden't hear the difference anyway belive me I've tried with a studio full of pro equipment not scientific testing but lets just say an informed opinion for pourposes of discussion. IMO the returns diminish greatly after decent 16/44.1. I think Room treatment decent speakers corrcet placement,distributed bass,taming room nodes and room treatment there I said it again will get more results in the end.
.

None of the mainstram studios are doing much 24/192 music until they get the content creators and producers
on board it ain't happening much and what little is out there will be expensive . more than half of it if it is recent is upsampled 'remastered' digital anyway you if can find some that is re mastered from
original master tapes or copys that will odc have to be older content and will be the exception rather than the rule. even then the re mastering has to be done well .
remember SACD ? I still have some and a nice Sony ES spinner packed in the storage bldg. decent 16/44.1 CD can sound just as good been there done that.
no point in a 24/192 in your computer unless you put a BD drive in it even then the m audio will be fine it can read it .
Quote:
here is what the folks at tech port say about the m aududio card

The most important specification to note is the lowest level of internal precision supported by each sound card—the weakest link. Fortunately, the Revolution 7.1's weakest link really isn't weak at all. The card's Envy24HT audio chip has a maximum internal precision of 24 bits at 192kHz, which is better than even Terratec's DMX 6fire 24/96. (The 6Fire uses an earlier of the Envy24 audio chip that tops out at 96kHz.) Though the Revolution 7.1's DAC shares the same 24-bit/192kHz sampling rate as the card's audio chip, the ADC is limited to 96kHz. The Revolution 7.1's slightly lower maximum ADC sampling rate won't hinder audio playback at all, and I would imagine that 24-bit/96kHz ADC precision should be enough for even picky audio recording enthusiasts.
http://techreport.com/review/4941/m-audio-revolution-7-1-sound-card

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post #40 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 10:51 AM
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Short of time, so I didn't read the full thread.

ESI Juli@ XTE might fit the bill. High end sound.

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post #41 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

No win 7 qualified drivers for your M-Audio Revolution 7.1 at M audio I logged in and checked Good news is I found some drivers.info below.

We have some m audio stuff and Avid pro tools here their legacy and new support sucks btw. out of all the people we deal with they have to be the worst even Aurturia all the way in France is much better except the time difference thing there are work arounds to get unsighned drivers to work but I don't like to invoke those that would only be a last resort but I would probably just get anothercard if it went that far. or put it in a nix box

Try the m audio vista x 64 driver below first if it doesent work or if you are on 32 bit windows just use the via chipset unified drivers further below
follow the procedures below exactly for either the m audio drivers or the via unified drivers


...


Tubetwister this post is fantastic, thanks for taking the time. I didnt quote it all just for length reasons, not because it wasnt all pertinent.



So here is where I am *PRIOR* to doing what you said in your post, just so we can keep this up to date for future reference. I did get it working, sorta... it "works" with the M Audio Vista 64 driver, but in windows utility it wont output PCM through the SPFID out, I have to choose "M audio speakers". If I choose SPDIF out, the AVR only gets sound with DD and DTS. With these settings, the M Audio outputs PCM at 24/48. I am not sure why. I can choose 16/44, or 24/96, etc... but after I put on a movie and the AVR picks up a DD or DTS signal, and I switch back to a PCM signal, the M Audi reverts back to 24/48. After a lot of reading I stumbled on the Via drivers referenced above, but windows wouldnt load them themselves (claimed the drivers were up to date) and running the driver exe would launch but wouldnt go anywhere... the utility runs, but it install the drivers.

All this being said, I want to bypass the w7 utility anyway, as I understand that is the best way to go about it. Hopefully Tubetwister's method works. Thanks again!
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post #42 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 12:22 PM
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The m audio drivers and GUI should have their own utility to select the output stream sample /bit rate ?? if not sometimes a clean reinstall of the drivers will enable that functionality you shouldn't have to use the windows utility for that . Try launching the m audio from either C > program files or C > X86 also open the folder and look for a .inf file and try to opn that as admin also try launching exe as admin sounds like something did not get extracted on your install maybe ?

Note you must always disable any on board audio in bios then uninstall any sound card device drivers in device manager and load windows without the new if PCI/PCIe removable device plugged in /installed or drivers installed so windows will not see anything at least once.
then install the drivers even though windows can't see the device( don't worry about that at this point) then shut down then install the hardware in that order .and re boot .

Then Windows can recognise the new device and drivers OR at least launch the hardware wizard and let you point windows to the file and finish the install don't let let windows install it's own drivers ( I think that is what happened windows likes to go home to mama sometimes ) that would perfectly explain windows not seeing the M audio GUI utility or the Via chipset drivers as your primary /default device but try doing that with the M audio Vista drivers first that may enable the m audio GUI and full functionality .


Even at that 24/48( not a bad option for 2.1 anyway) goes above human hearing range.
Your speakers may not resolve anything above that anyway and if they did could you couldn't hear it anyway . Some of my amps are almost flat maybe -3db out to 100,000 Hz I can't hear it, they could hard limit at 20 like a CD and it would not sound any different to me you can not hear what you can not hear it's real simple.

I can put my phones on right now or the studio monitor speakers( have 3 different speaker pairs ) , spin up a project file in a Daw and output it @ 24/192, 24/96,or 24/48 and not hear any difference even if the original file was sampled in 24/192 for playback usually decent 24/48 or more often 16/44.1 is fine with me . ofc processing audio at higher native bit rates is entirely useful prior to mixdown and rendering to media or end user
but IMO the returns above 16/44.1 playback are minimal .

Sometimes I * think* I might hear a slight difference between 24/48 and 16/44. other times not ?? but in reality all other things being equal there likely will not be a difference and beyond that I certainly can not perceive a difference. My first CD player long time ago ,a Sony was advertised as having a 20 bit sample rate rather than 16 bit they made a big deal out of it just marketing BS or maybe those were the only chips they could get ? Cd's are hard limit 16/44.1 anyway.

Keep in mind sometimes re mastered hi res files sound better not necessarily because of sample and bit rates used in the consumer media or end user files but rather because the re mastering engineer or in some case the original mastering engineer didn't run it so hot (compression for loudness) as was and is sometimes still common on CD mix .


You might try the m audio analog outs and use and DAC and first audio signal path on the m audio you might find that m audio front end sounds better than your AVR DAC and first audio thats usually the case in my experience with the m audio interface and AVR's or a lot of other stuff also in general . Any way good luck .

The ESI Juli@ XTE. looks like a nice card I'm just not convinced in the end that it will sound any better than the M audio card for your intended use.

good luck

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post #43 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Tubetwister:

I installed the drivers per your instructions. I could not install the Via drivers without a soundcard in the machine. Any idea why? So I installed the Vista x64 drivers again, and it works like it did before... w7 makes me choose the "M Audio Speakers" or it wont output PCM (redundant I suppose, as its still outputting sound via a SPFID), and it falls back to 24/48 after playing a DD/DTS source.

At this point I am sorta content, but I would like to try the Via drivers and see if I can get it working "right" at some point. Maybe the next time I format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Even at that 24/48( not a bad option for 2.1 anyway) goes above human hearing range.
Your speakers may not resolve anything above that anyway and if they did could you couldn't hear it anyway . Some of my amps are almost flat maybe -3db out to 100,000 Hz I can't hear it, they could hard limit at 20 like a CD and it would not sound any different to me you can not hear what you can not hear it's real simple.

I can put my phones on right now or the studio monitor speakers( have 3 different speaker pairs ) , spin up a project file in a Daw and output it @ 24/192, 24/96,or 24/48 and not hear any difference even if the original file was sampled in 24/192 for playback usually decent 24/48 or more often 16/44.1 is fine with me . ofc processing audio at higher native bit rates is entirely useful prior to mixdown and rendering to media or end user
but IMO the returns above 16/44.1 playback are minimal .

Sometimes I * think* I might hear a slight difference between 24/48 and 16/44. other times not ?? but in reality all other things being equal there likely will not be a difference and beyond that I certainly can not perceive a difference. My first CD player long time ago ,a Sony was advertised as having a 20 bit sample rate rather than 16 bit they made a big deal out of it just marketing BS or maybe those were the only chips they could get ? Cd's are hard limit 16/44.1 anyway.

Keep in mind sometimes re mastered hi res files sound better not necessarily because of sample and bit rates used in the consumer media or end user files but rather because the re mastering engineer or in some case the original mastering engineer didn't run it so hot (compression for loudness) as was and is sometimes still common on CD mix .

Yeah, I understand the science behind my inability to hear anything at 24/48 as it is... Thats a lie, I should say, I have read articles and discussion on this and other forums stating as much. At first I thought I was hearing a difference, but I have come to the conclusion that what you say in last, bold paragraph in your quote is true. The hi-res files are mastered better. My CD's mastered well are just as good to my ears as my SACD content. I think some of this is unfortunately my musical selection... most of my favorite music at the moment is indie, be it rock/synth/semi-electro/etc (the genres blend together to me) and some is lo-fi at that. I presume (although I dont actually know, I have no sound engineering experience) that it doesnt lend itself to top notch mastering.

Thanks again for all the help. Good discussion here and certainly a lot for someone in the future to reference.
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post #44 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 11:02 PM
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I'm surprised an m audio utility isn't present it should have installed with the drivers first place to look is in CP (control panel )for an M audio application it should be there or it would also be in your 64 bit program files or x 86 program files depending if the utility is in fact a 64 bit file or 64 bit compatible 32 bit application . I would look and see if something with m audio is in there or type m audio in search it has to launched just like any other application in order to be used . If you find it pin it to the task bar or at least a desktop shortcut It may be present it does not launch automatically . you can launch m audio utility from within program group ,start menu or CP just like any other application you have to launch it every time you use it to change a setting.if not changing settings or using the EQ you can leave it alone . If you find the utility you might be all set .
.
I would not format just to try drivers out does your windows sound controller (SCP) have spdif pass though option visible ? also a discrete video card if you have one would be another spdif connection to try rather than the sound card most video cards offer that and sometimes hijack the spdif out anyway .


You could uninstall the Vista drivers in device mgr with the card in and if you already have the Via driver files in maybe in a folder somewhere ,desktop,downloads ,docs wherever
just start Hdwe wizard from within Device MGR and point it it to the file

Alternate driver installation
first uninstall vista ( or whatever driver ) from within dev mgr then ,
device mgr >sound controller > rt click>update driver hdwe wizard>find file on this computer > browse > [ via file ] some times the wizard will even find them for you and give you the choice. long as you can keep windows from going home to mama and installing some generic windows drivers that's why with this method you will not re boot and invoke plug and play until configuration is done .

In any event 24/48 should sound good it could be an m audio or more likely via hardware default setting without direction from m audio (or other application ) to allow an exception such as as surround sound and different sample/bit rates or any EQ /effects changes in the m audio utility or other application 24/48 was/is a common sample /bit rate for working projects during final mixing/manipulation and before final render of a music project file to end user media format in a daw editor or file converter ofc that can be done in a number of ways .




.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
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Tubetwister:

The M Audio utility is present. I set it to 24/96, but it reverts to 24/48 after I change source material. Again, I know this isnt a big deal, 24/48 is more than fine, I cant think of a reason to change it back each time. As you pointed out, I wont know the difference. But it is perplexing. I have also gone through the Windows settings numerous times, it wont output PCM if I select SPFID out, it will only output DTS/DD. It works fine as described before if I select "M-Audio Speakers". But its only connected via the SPFID, so obviously that is what is outputting the sound. I presume this isnt affecting anything, but I could be wrong.



What is annoying now is that with the on board sound turned off in the Bios, I am getting source clipping on some songs when playing through my XBMC. It seems this setup wants to fight me the entire way.
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post #46 of 54 Old 10-08-2013, 11:48 PM
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That sucks I'm at a loss now ofc I've had my share of m audio comparability problems with new products so problems with legacy products aren't surprising or shouldn't surprise me anyway . Maybe give the Via drivers a shot ? did you check for a vidio card spdif optical output that might be where the windows spdif option is going specially if you have a 3D discrete video card ? there should be mixer level settings somewhere in the m audio utility ?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

that sucks I'm at a loss now ofc I've had my share of m audio comparability problems with new products so problems with legacy products aren't surprising or shouldn't surprise me anyway . Maybe give the Via drivers a shot ? did you check for a vidio card spdif optical output ? there should be mixer level settings somewhere in the m audio utility ?

My video card is HDMI & DVI only. There are no mixer settings with the digital setting in the M Audio Utility, only bitrate and ASCI (ACSI?) setting. I can (and probably will) try the Via drivers, but the 24/48 isnt a big deal... what is annoying is that I am getting source clipping in XBMC.

What is the downside of having the on board audio on? Is it reprocessing everything in between the card and the AVR? Is that even possible with digital? I presume this is causing my problems.
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post #48 of 54 Old 10-09-2013, 12:54 AM
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You could enable the on board it would just appear as another sound device in windows and you could enable /disable /or default it at will in the windows sound control app no harm in that . you would ofc probably have to connect AVR to the rear panel spdif as before . any "pure direct settings" in the AVR ? you might have to re install the chip driver for it also you will then show 2 sound devices in dev mgr
alternately you can disable the sound card and re boot and windows P/P might find some drivers for the on board or you can do it all in
dev mgr as above as well if know where the driver is or maybe windows can find it. ofc you will have to enable the chip in the bios.
you sure ACSI isn't ASIO ?
anyway here is the easy way

enable on board in bios /load windows
Click Start, click Control Panel, and then dev mgr .
Expand Sound, video, and game controllers.
ignore the Vista or Via sound card driver
Double-click the on board sound card, and then click the Driver tab.
locate Driver.
Follow the Hardwick Updare Update Wizard to update the sound card driver.

good luck

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Even if you get it working... realise the ultimate goal is to pass audio straight through without any windows or soundcard driver resampling. If you play a 16/44.1 CD rip, then the AVR should report 16/44.1 as source signal. If the next track you play is a 24/96 download then the AVR should now report 24/96 as source signal.

That is what I was talking about with my Asus ST soundcard not having a very good native ASIO driver. It would do bit-perfect output but it would click and pop occasionally while doing it with ASIO. I had to use WASAPI which was stutter free but didn't sound quite as nice.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

You could enable the on board it would just appear as another sound device in windows and you could enable /disable /or default it at will in the windows sound control app no harm in that . you would ofc probably have to connect AVR to the rear panel spdif as before . any "pure direct settings" in the AVR ? you might have to re install the chip driver for it also you will then show 2 sound devices in dev mgr
alternately you can disable the sound card and re boot and windows P/P might find some drivers for the on board or you can do it all in
dev mgr as above as well if know where the driver is or maybe windows can find it. ofc you will have to enable the chip in the bios.
you sure ACSI isn't ASIO ?
anyway here is the easy way

enable on board in bios /load windows
Click Start, click Control Panel, and then dev mgr .
Expand Sound, video, and game controllers.
ignore the Vista or Via sound card driver
Double-click the on board sound card, and then click the Driver tab.
locate Driver.
Follow the Hardwick Updare Update Wizard to update the sound card driver.

good luck


Yes, ASIO, it was late and couldnt remember the acronym. This is how I was running it before, I presume it will work fine. I am going to uninstall the M Audio drivers and try the Via drivers. If that doesnt work, Im going to go back to the mb optical out and look for another soundcard. At this point I'm annoyed and i want it to work correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Even if you get it working... realise the ultimate goal is to pass audio straight through without any windows or soundcard driver resampling. If you play a 16/44.1 CD rip, then the AVR should report 16/44.1 as source signal. If the next track you play is a 24/96 download then the AVR should now report 24/96 as source signal.

That is what I was talking about with my Asus ST soundcard not having a very good native ASIO driver. It would do bit-perfect output but it would click and pop occasionally while doing it with ASIO. I had to use WASAPI which was stutter free but didn't sound quite as nice.

Oh, I realize it. Thats why I am so annoyed. Regardless of any debate whether I can or cannot hear the difference, I want this passed through straight without any resampling for the AVR DACs to handle on their own and I want the same bitrate as the source file to be played. Thats how 'its supposed to work' and thats how I want it to work. Funny enough, it was working that way with the motherboard Toslink out.... I just assumed windows was getting in the way and I wanted something nicer. rolleyes.gif




Does anyone have an experience with the HT Omega Claro + cards? I havent done much research but they seem to be a step above the Asus, have w7 drivers, dig coax out, and 24/192. I'll do some reading but any opinions would be nice.
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post #51 of 54 Old 10-09-2013, 03:18 PM
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Not entirely unreasonable to use AVR or other external DAC to be sure. I wish I could be of more help at this point but to tell you the truth if the Via drivers don't resolve the issue I'm stumped at this point .

I use an Xonar DGX in the home office PC and the built in headphone amp it is not bad not the best but decent 300% improvement over the OEM on board the discrete video card has spdif out as well as the one on the sound card I've never used them in here though just have a simple 2.1 speaker in here running from ordinary line level out and HDMI to TV. and Dish net also

Bedroom PC and TV is the same set up DGX sound card as well and discrete HD video card
media comes from from DLNA wifi over the Lan and dish net + same speaker set up and HDMI out from PC

HT AVR gets it's AV stuff and music from nas sever via WMC DLNA Wi Fi then HDMI from PS3 .

Have pro midi digital interfaces and analog pre amps in the studio set up really clean stuff!
whole house is on the LAN

If you can't get the M audio working to your preferences I'm sure something is out there .



Have you looked at tech reports they have in depth analysis and reviews of most of the sound cards and other hardware out there with measurements and in depth specs ,you can also type products into their search box pretty good site.

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I am going to sell this and buy something else, no worries at all tubetwister, you have been an invaluable resource. The help and time spent is much appreciated. I will use that link to compare cards. Needless to say, I want something with w7 drivers. From what Ive read so far, which hasnt been much, the lower end Asus are average at best. I think I will look at HT Omega, the higher end Asus, and maybe the nicer, new M-Audio, but the fact they dont support their legacy products at all is certainly a turn off.

For now the onboard SPFID at least has everything working, but its a cheap realtek chipset, not horrible by any means, we are talking digital signals here which my AVR then processes with its internal DACs, but not what I want. I want something that bypasses windows processing and is switchable, so the raw signal is sent to my AVR to then convert at the correct bitrate. I dont think its too much to ask.



Funny though, now that I have the space for a (to me at least) nice 2.0 setup, I rarely use my HD650's, so I am going to sell my headphone setup and probably buy something much more average. For how little I use it, it will fit the bill fine.
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post #53 of 54 Old 10-10-2013, 03:27 PM
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that's true about the low end Asus they are far from spectacular but Ok for the money for non critical listening like they say you get what you pay for.

When I go in the studio and plug in there or turn on the amps and speakers the differences are readily apparent no low end Asus cards in there .
I've read windows 8 is real good with audio and lets it by pass windows altogether I've thought about giving it a try just for that some of the folks that use it with decent outboard dacs or AVR's swear by it.

Hope you find something that works well for you keep us posted .

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I am really trying to maximize my sound quality when listening to music. I primarily listen to computer audio files ripped from my CD & LP collection in ALAC, via iTunes and Airplay. My main system major components are:

Denon X4000 Receiver (With Internal Airplay) (Wired LAN)
Goldenear Triton 3 Speakers
Apple TV (With Airplay) (Wired LAN) HDMI Connection
Samsung BD-F6700 Blue Ray Player (Wired LAN) HDMI Connection

The source of my iTunes is a HP Windows 7 Desktop Computer with two hard drives connected to a wired LAN. Music is stored on Hard Drive 2. The computer has (2) HDMI’s outputs one being used for the monitor and one Toslink Output. I am currently using the analog output for desktop speakers.

My current iTunes setting are:
Enhancements Off
Playing Audio Windows Audio Session
Bitrate for Playback 44 kHz
Bits per Sample for Audio 24
Equalizer Off

My Windows sound settings are:
Speakers
Enhancements Disabled
Advanced 16 bit CD Quality

I have several questions
1) Are my iTunes and Windows setting correct and is there anything that I need to change?
2) The desktop is in a home office about 30’ away. Would I see a major improvement running a HDMI or Toslink cable to it? If I did this it possible to also run a set of desktop speakers on the unit without changing settings since, I use the computer for other things?
3) If I hardwired the system could I run both J Rivers, which supposedly, has better quality and iTunes using the same library? All our phones and tablets are Apple.
4) Should I get a Mac Mini and hook it to an HDMI input using ITunes and one of the add-on players?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts
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