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post #151 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

I already found my 80% improvement in 20% of time already. It is acquiring 24bit 192kHz studio master recordings.
The improvement in sound quality is amazing.

Most likely they sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. I doubt you tested them against 16/44 CD's in a blind test.
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post #152 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 01:40 PM
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Did you ever post a picture of your setup, and/or a plan view with dimensions?
That would help us evaluate your setup.
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I already found my 80% improvement in 20% of time already. It is acquiring 24bit 192kHz studio master recordings.
Really?
This is your thread, and your subjective evaluation.....all I will add is "don't get yourself a job doing subjective evaluations for a living", how can you truly state you've achieved 80% if you don't know what 100% is?
Trust me, I've done subjective evaluations, both myself and with focus user groups, then correlated those to objective measurements.
Not an easy task by any means.
Bye.
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post #153 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

My listening room opens into a very large foyer on the right side. It is a downside.

Then make that right side the back side.

Acoustic symmetry is key.

Not only that, but having no wall and a big space behind you is good. Sound waves will pass over you then break up and dissipate in the open space behind you with very little reflecting back causing less peaks and nulls in the frequency response. You could turn a downside of your room into an upside.

With audio, "the best you have heard is the best you know". You really have no idea how much better things could sound until you try.
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post #154 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Then make that right side the back side.

Acoustic symmetry is key.

Not only that, but having no wall and a big space behind you is good. Sound waves will pass over you then break up and dissipate in the open space behind you with very little reflecting back causing less peaks and nulls in the frequency response. You could turn a downside of your room into an upside.

With audio, "the best you have heard is the best you know". You really have no idea how much better things could sound until you try.

Why couldn't I think of that? So simple!
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post #155 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Most likely they sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. I doubt you tested them against 16/44 CD's in a blind test.

Compared, yes, but not in a blind test.
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post #156 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 02:47 PM
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I already found my 80% improvement in 20% of time already. It is acquiring 24bit 192kHz studio master recordings.
The improvement in sound quality is amazing.
Hmmm. You haven't learned much from your reading, I'm afraid.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #157 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Hmmm. You haven't learned much from your reading, I'm afraid.

This has nothing to do with reading. If you have a point please explain it, Mcnarus.
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post #158 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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That MP3 thread is fascinating. I dont know how to copy and paste from another thread, so here goes nothing.
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

This is as clear a statement of scientific illiteracy as any I have ever read on AVS. And that is saying something.

I take it you have never supplied ample well documented evidence and got the response:

"Oh thats not evidence"

or

"The test wasn't done right"

or

"I don't believe those results"

or

"That doesn't prove anything"

....which brings me to my statement "Evidence is in the mind of the beholder". Said another way, no amount of evidence will convince some people.
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post #159 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

OK, so he's a blithering idiot. Vlad, take his book off your list.

I see one of my posts has been removed.

I guess it's okay to call someone a 'blithering idiot' behind their back when you haven't got the balls to say it to the person themselve...

Maybe having a high post count makes someone exempt..??
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post #160 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I see one of my posts has been removed.

I guess it's okay to call someone a 'blithering idiot' behind their back when you haven't got the balls to say it to the person themselve...

Maybe having a high post count makes someone exempt..??

Indeed it was removed. Someone hit the red flag next to your post in which you spoke of a blithering idiot who called someone a blithering idiot in another post:
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

OK, so he's a blithering idiot. Vlad, take his book off your list.

I guess he got offended because he used it as a general "subjective" expression, but yours struck a nerve because it was "objective and fully quantifiable fact".
Lets see how quickly my post disappears since I used the term "blithering idiot" twice (no, wait - three times now!) Going, going, gone!
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post #161 of 235 Old 10-18-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

...

OTOH, his TOC indicates that he at least appreciates the value of paying attention to the room, which means the book might have some worthwhile tips.

He also appears to be a believer in equipment break-in, however, so he's got a voodoo side, as well.
And, that is the problem, knowing the wheat from the chaff wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #162 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Most likely they sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. I doubt you tested them against 16/44 CD's in a blind test.

That is the exact reason, correct. They sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. What is this burning need to double blind test everything you like to make sure you like it? Isnt liking it enough? The next girl I date I will give away to another block to make sure he enjoys her as much as I do to make sure it is not just my gullible mind playing tricks on me. We will then compare notes. Only then my relationship will be ironclad.
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post #163 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

That is the exact reason, correct. They sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. What is this burning need to double blind test everything you like to make sure you like it?[/auote]

I'm not suggesting you need to double blind anything and I certainly don't. You said the 24 bit recording sounded better than the red book recording. It is that which deserves the challenge. To say I got some recordings that sound really good is fine. To say that the 24 bit version sounds better than the 16 bit goes against tests results made by many people.
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Isnt liking it enough?

Of course. But you didn't leave it there.

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The next girl I date I will give away to another block to make sure he enjoys her as much as I do to make sure it is not just my gullible mind playing tricks on me. We will then compare notes. Only then my relationship will be ironclad.

You know a girl without hearing bias?
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post #164 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

You know a girl without hearing bias?

No, I certainly don't. You have gotten me there!
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post #165 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Most likely they sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. I doubt you tested them against 16/44 CD's in a blind test.

That is the exact reason, correct. They sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. What is this burning need to double blind test everything you like to make sure you like it? Isnt liking it enough? The next girl I date I will give away to another block to make sure he enjoys her as much as I do to make sure it is not just my gullible mind playing tricks on me. We will then compare notes. Only then my relationship will be ironclad.

stating a "like" is a preference and opinion and no one should not mistake an opinion for anything other then what it is.

claiming a "superiority" requires some form evidence to support it, otherwise such a claim is nothing more then an opinion.

can you think of any better way to support a "superiority claim" in audio then a properly conducted DBT that removes or otherwise controls for any potential bias that may affect the validity of the claim?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
LOL!
Why you wouldn't want to join this forum
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post #166 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 11:37 AM
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Most likely they sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered. I doubt you tested them against 16/44 CD's in a blind test.

That is the exact reason, correct. They sound amazing because they were expertly recorded, mixed and mastered.
Right. But what we want you to understand is that 24/192 has nothing to do with this. If I took one of your 24/192 recordings and downconverted it to 16/44.1, you wouldn't be able to tell me which was which.
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What is this burning need to double blind test everything you like to make sure you like it?
The blind testing that people are talking about here isn't about seeing whether you like something. It's about seeing whether you can tell two things apart at all. It's pretty common to see people saying they like A better than B, when it turns out that A and B are exactly the same.

Now, just to throw you a curve, I'll mention that blind comparisons can also reveal something about your preferences when there really is a difference. People can prefer A to B when they know which is which, but prefer B to A when they don't know which is which. What does that tell you?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #167 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

People can prefer A to B when they know which is which, but prefer B to A when they don't know which is which. What does that tell you?

No reasonable person will argue with that statement. I will conduct my very crude blind study and report back. Thank you.
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post #168 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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No reasonable person will argue with that statement. I will conduct my very crude blind study and report back. Thank you.

The results are not what I expected. The test was blind. I was not in control (my son was, it is his handwriting. The methodology is flawed - more on that later - but the results are pretty clear.


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post #169 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 12:35 PM
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No reasonable person will argue with that statement.
Then there must be a lot of unreasonable people in the world!
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I will conduct my very crude blind study and report back.
No one's demanding that you do this. (Even if it sounds like they are.) Besides, doing a good blind test takes some work. The fact that you are happy with your hi-res recordings is all that matters. I'm just cautioning you that if someone says, "I compared A to B, and A sounds better," you should take that with a very, very large grain of salt. Doesn't matter whether he's a poster here or a profeshunal revooer.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #170 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 12:41 PM
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The results are not what I expected. The test was blind. I was not in control (my son was, it is his handwriting. The methodology is flawed - more on that later - but the results are pretty clear.
Good for you! Not many guys ever bother.

Now, do you know how to interpret your result?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #171 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

The results are not what I expected.

Don't feel bad about it. Chalk it up as a learning experience for learning what is important and what isn't in this hobby of hi-fi.

There is such a minefield of pointless dead end paths to go down in this hi-fi world... so developing a methodology to work out what is important and what isn't is a big step in the right direction itself.

Such will result in more time and money being spent on what *is* important over more time and money being wasted on what *isn't* important.
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post #172 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 01:03 PM
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Good for you! Not many guys ever bother.

I did a bit of a blind A/B comparison of a HD download and the same song on a CD a few years ago and couldn't pick any noticeable difference between the two. Great news as I could go happily scouring CDs from the bargain shops for next to nothing and have now built up a decent sized FLAC library on my PC.
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post #173 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Then there must be a lot of unreasonable people in the world!
No one's demanding that you do this.

I do. If the difference for the better is all imagined and they actually sound indistinguishable to other people - I will be wasting my money. So, I care.

Granted, this was an extremely crude test but I was sure that I would get at least 90% right. Instead, 50% which is equal to random responses.

Here is the methodology.

The website that sells these 24bit 192kHz songs has a choice of previews - listen and download. You can choose which format to listen to, from 320MP3 to 24bit 192kHz.



So, here is what we did. I chose the first album available in the highest resolution. I asked my son to write down number 1 through 10 vertically. Then play the same song 5 times in CD quality and 5 times in HD, in random order. Write down the actual format and the one I guessed while sitting a 10-15 feet back on a couch.

I did not see what format he played or what order he chose.

You saw the results.

Here is the setup.

My ASUS PC (RAM and CPU are irrelevant here) has an Nvidia audio card, top of the line a few years ago. But since this sound was bypassing it the sound card is irrelevant as well. The PC is connected via an HDMI cord to a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 AVR. It outputs to an Emotiva XPA-3 power amplifier and a Sunfire HRS-10 1,000W powered subwoofer. The AVR is connected to Polk LSi-9 left and right speakers. Center and surrounds are different, but they are beside the point.

Here is where this methodology is flawed (the remarkable results notwithstanding):

1) What came out from speakers was essentially what the website browser sent. I sincerely doubt that even though I clicked on 24bit 192kHz preview, their server actually sent this quality signal. I monitored network card input and it was a few kbps for both CD and 24bit 192kHz, a far cry from 77mbps I calculated for the 10 seconds preview if it was of correct resolution. So, when you buy, you probably get HD quality, but not when you preview, which is exactly what we did.

2) The song was the worst possible choice - Kuniko Cantus. Although recorded in high quality the entire piece is a 800Hz -1000Hz tone of percussions (vibraphone and crotales) that has no dynamics and never reaches anything that would shine in 24bit 192kHz. I should have chosen some jazz with a rich and bright sound and vocals, not this sort of music which is as dynamic as a test tone. Of course, it sounds terrific as an art piece.

I think these two aspects render the test flawed, but not invalid.

Here is what I need to do.

1) Buy CD and HD versions of a different dynamic and rich song.
2) Convert to .DTSHD, have my son name 5 copies of each sort differently (10 copies of the same song, 5 HD and 5 CD) and document which track is in which format without me knowing it.
3) Repeat the test in Pioneer Elite BD player this time instead of a browser.

Then it will be much more clear, I think. So far I have doubts.

Regardless of the results - thanks for your suggestions. It has been fun! biggrin.gif
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post #174 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

Here is what I need to do...

Or find a suitable song and purchase the 16/44.1 and 24/192 versions of it and get your son to play them back randomly to you.

(actually you may already have a 24/192 song that you think would be good for the comparison so you just need to purchase the 16/44.1 version of it)
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post #175 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 02:31 PM
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When I did a similar experiment, I downloaded the free SoX software, which has a high-quality resampling algorithm (actually a choice of quality). I took a 24/96 file I had ripped from a DVD-A and downsampled it to 16/44.1 using the highest quality resampling algorithm like so:
Code:
sox input_file.wav -b 16 output_file_1.wav rate -v 44100 dither

Then I upsampled it back to 24/96 again using a similar command line:
Code:
sox output_file_1.wav -b 24 output_file_2.wav rate -v 96000 dither

Now input_file.wav and output_file_2.wav are both 24/96, but the latter has been through a round-trip resampling to 16/44.1 and back, which loses 8 bits of resolution, as well as all content above 22.05 kHz. In this way, the resampled and original are both the same 24/96 format, so any difference in DAC behavior with sample rate and bit depth is removed from the experiment. Since I have a PC, I used Foobar2000 with the ABX comparator add-on to compare them.
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post #176 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 02:35 PM
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Granted, this was an extremely crude test but I was sure that I would get at least 90% right. Instead, 50% which is equal to random responses.
Yes, but a lot of people get this wrong. A Stereophile writer reporting on a blind test once insisted that the participants "had corrrectly identified X fully half the time"!
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Here is where this methodology is flawed (the remarkable results notwithstanding):

1) What came out from speakers was essentially what the website browser sent. I sincerely doubt that even though I clicked on 24bit 192kHz preview, their server actually sent this quality signal.
Yeah, more than likely.
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Here is what I need to do.

1) Buy CD and HD versions of a different dynamic and rich song.
2) Convert to .DTSHD, have my son name 5 copies of each sort differently (10 copies of the same song, 5 HD and 5 CD) and document which track is in which format without me knowing it.
3) Repeat the test in Pioneer Elite BD player this time instead of a browser.

Then it will be much more clear, I think. So far I have doubts.
Well, there are two possible problems here. One is that you can't be absolutely sure that the two versions are mastered identically, other than the resolution. You'd presume so, but you never know. More crucially, you can't be sure they're recorded at precisely the same level. If they're even a little off, they will be easily distinguishable. My guess is that neither of these things will happen, and that you will once again get a 50/50 result. But if you get 8 or 9 right, we can't be absolutely sure why you heard the difference.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #177 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 03:51 PM
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Excellent work, Vlad. You got through your first test and scored just we would have expected - i.e. the same flipping a coin. Glad to see your test result.
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post #178 of 235 Old 10-19-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Excellent work, Vlad. You got through your first test and scored just we would have expected - i.e. the same flipping a coin. Glad to see your test result.

"1) What came out from speakers was essentially what the website browser sent. I sincerely doubt that even though I clicked on 24bit 192kHz preview, their server actually sent this quality signal. I monitored network card input and it was a few kbps for both CD and 24bit 192kHz, a far cry from 77mbps I calculated for the 10 seconds preview if it was of correct resolution. So, when you buy, you probably get HD quality, but not when you preview, which is exactly what we did."

In so much that he was probable listening to the same sample, then a 50/50 results is what one would expect.

The same test between 44.1 - 192 will be interesting.
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post #179 of 235 Old 10-20-2013, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

"1) What came out from speakers was essentially what the website browser sent. I sincerely doubt that even though I clicked on 24bit 192kHz preview, their server actually sent this quality signal. I monitored network card input and it was a few kbps for both CD and 24bit 192kHz, a far cry from 77mbps I calculated for the 10 seconds preview if it was of correct resolution. So, when you buy, you probably get HD quality, but not when you preview, which is exactly what we did."

In so much that he was probable listening to the same sample, then a 50/50 results is what one would expect.

The same test between 44.1 - 192 will be interesting.

I purchased a better test file.
Unfortunately, my PC => AVR => Power Amp => Speakers path sound is worse than BluRay or DirectTV or Airplay. So, just playing the file in different resolutions in Foobar2000 will not be a fair test. On the other hand I can only burn the CD quality version to a CD or DVD or Bluray.
I can send it through my surround conversion software chain (8 different pieces), but the result will be a 48K resolution .DTSHD, which is, again, isnt fair.
I need to configure it all to upconvert all 3 testfiles to 192Khz 24bit. The upconversion will not improve MP3 or CD versions of the song, but will preserve the one recorded in that format. That will make it a fair test.
I need to figure out how to configure ALL chain components to process in 192Khz 24bit (set for 48K 24 bit currently):



In the meantime , check out spectral analysis of the same song in MP3, CD and 192Khz 24bit studio master.







There is a visual difference between SM and the other two, but the question is will it be heard in a blind comparison test?
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post #180 of 235 Old 10-20-2013, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

I purchased a better test file.
Unfortunately, my PC => AVR => Power Amp => Speakers path sound is worse than BluRay or DirectTV or Airplay. So, just playing the file in different resolutions in Foobar2000 will not be a fair test. On the other hand I can only burn the CD quality version to a CD or DVD or Bluray.
I can send it through my surround conversion software chain (8 different pieces), but the result will be a 48K resolution .DTSHD, which is, again, isnt fair.
I need to configure it all to upconvert all 3 testfiles to 192Khz 24bit. The upconversion will not improve MP3 or CD versions of the song, but will preserve the one recorded in that format. That will make it a fair test.
I need to figure out how to configure ALL chain components to process in 192Khz 24bit (set for 48K 24 bit currently):


There is a visual difference between SM and the other two, but the question is will it be heard in a blind comparison test?
Interesting shots. Looking at the last one, the ultrasonics is in the range of -120 dB if I am reading it correctly. One only has to compare that to the threshold of detection wink.gif
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