Is Dolby Atmos Coming To HT? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Good lord we have a lot of the same thread around here.
Yeah, this thread has some overlap with the theatrical Atmos thread and the going beyond 7.1 thread.

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post #122 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Not regular Blu-ray, no. UHD, yes.
I don't see why they would wait. They spent the money to remix some catalogue titles, and they already have more than 40 new mixes (recent films), so I figured they'd want some return on their investment as soon as possible (as soon as decoders are in consumer hands), irrespective of delivery media: BD, streaming, download, etc.

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post #123 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I don't see why they would wait. They spent the money to remix some catalogue titles, and they already have more than 40 new mixes (recent films), so I figured they'd want some return on their investment as soon as possible (as soon as decoders are in consumer hands), irrespective of delivery media: BD, streaming, download, etc.

I'm saying they'd wait for "4k" Blu-ray and other media. I don't think they could easily put these new object codecs on regular Blu-ray. They have to have something to spur new adoption. I don't know if the studios would be stupid enough to release these titles with object mixes without including them and then immediately milk the public again with UHD media Atmos and DTS-UHD tracks when those codecs would clearly be a part of any new format's specs. They rarely double dipped titles just for new audio tracks in the past.

Any press release for a new UHD Blu-ray medium would definitely tout the pixel increase, the improvement in bit depth and color sampling, wider color gamut, new and advanced audio formats (broadcasters seem to want object audio to be included too), menu features, etc. etc.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #124 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 01:15 PM
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But in the past the studios might not have been as desperate for more revenue streams. Greed will accomplish surprising things. The DTS competitor is already claimed to be available in at least one expensive pre/pro. Surely Dolby doesn't want to get left behind. There must be a lot of back-room bargaining going on. Somewhere.

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post #125 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

But in the past the studios might not have been as desperate for more revenue streams. Greed will accomplish surprising things. The DTS competitor is already claimed to be available in at least one expensive pre/pro. Surely Dolby doesn't want to get left behind. There must be a lot of back-room bargaining going on. Somewhere.

SMPTE is attempting to head this off at the pass by having Dolby and DTS come up with a way for them to integrate their Atmos and MDA (UHD in consumer gear) formats into some common open standard when spit out of the object mixing software for universal interoperability and speaker re-mapping, so there is wider adoption of object audio in the commercial and consumer markets. They believe that having two incompatible object and speaker mapping languages will hurt the industry in the long run.

Notice, Auro3D is not in the discussion because it is not an object based format. It's really the odd man out.

And when I say object based, I don't mean Dolby and DTS's solutions are purely object bitstreams. They're both hybrid channel + object formats.

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post #126 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I don't think they could easily put these new object codecs on regular Blu-ray.
Roger described a core + extension approach in a post last year that seemed feasable. The core would be the multi-channel mix, which could be decoded by legacy receivers. The extension packet would contain objects and metadata, which could be decoded by a newer object-aware receiver and muxed into the channel-based core. Shouldn't be much larger than current soundtracks, so space wouldn't be an issue.
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

broadcasters seem to want object audio to be included too
Shouldn't be a problem. Objects are digital audio as much as channels are. Both can be stored on disc using lossless packing and broadcast/streamed using lossy compression.

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post #127 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Roger described a core + extension approach in a post last year that seemed feasable. The core would be the multi-channel mix, which could be decoded by legacy receivers. The extension packet would contain objects and metadata, which could be decoded by a newer object-aware receiver and muxed into the channel-based core. Shouldn't be much larger than current soundtracks, so space wouldn't be an issue.
Shouldn't be a problem. Objects are digital audio as much as channels are. Both can be stored on disc using lossless packing and broadcast/streamed using lossy compression.

Even if they could without major sonic and surround performance compromises to these codecs due to storage size and bandwidth requirements, I really don't think they'll do it. The BDA is very gun shy after 3D's failure. 3D was tacked on later rather than at the outset and didn't catch on. It makes sense to start fresh with UHD.

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post #128 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The DTS competitor is already claimed to be available in at least one expensive pre/pro.
DTS or Auro?

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post #129 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

DTS or Auro?

I think he's talking about Auro3D, which I don't think will catch on. The industry is gaga over object audio and Barco has even mentioned that they'll probably start using object audio, while keeping their specific Auro3D speaker layout intact.

With a universal interface between the object formats, it shouldn't matter too much about which layout a commercial theater or consumer home theater uses... unless it is radically different from the original sound engineers' intentions at the dubbing stage, then sounds may not emanate from the correct locations.

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post #130 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


Has nothing to do with the number of speakers used for playback. Fosgate started selling consumer 7.1 pre-pros in 1986, Lexicon came out with their first 7.1 pre-pro in 1988. Discrete 7.1 soundtracks wouldn't show up until 2006. What were owners of Fosgate and Lexicon pre-pros doing for those two decades years until 7.1 content was available?

 

I dunno, you tell me.

 

I'm guessing the answer is same as me, a DSP extrapolating out to the 7.1 soundtrack based on some algorithm the Fosgate and Lexicon engineers invented.

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post #131 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 02:09 PM
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OH well unfortunately I think we wont see anything until 2016 if we are lucky!

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post #132 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 03:03 PM
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OH well unfortunately I think we wont see anything until 2016 if we are lucky!

Actually, I'm assuming that once the DTS-UHD technology becomes public, we'll "quite soon" see the arrival of BDs which would formerly have been DTS-HDMA 5.1|7.1, but will now be authored as DTS-UHD 5.1|7.1 + 1 Object . . . and with 'legacy' playback as DTS-HDMA 5.1|7.1.

Given that most BDs are played back in a 2.0 environment, the greatest (marketing) advantage would seem to be obtained by adding just a user-interactive static foreground dialog object. This would seem mostly to require that the dialog stem be separately added during a newer and more complex BD authoring process.

To benefit, it seems like the consumer would need to replace any one of their TV, soundbar, or BD player with a "new model" containing a DTS-UHD decoder. Next, repeat entire process for some competing Dolby Home Theater object based technology extension to TrueHD...?!

Just my guess, of course! biggrin.gif
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post #133 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 03:09 PM
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Would they need to replace the BD / TV etc if the stream is in the HDMI data pipeline.  Then it would just be the sound decoder in the AVR or Soundbar etc.

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post #134 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 03:28 PM
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Would they need to replace the BD / TV etc if the stream is in the HDMI data pipeline.  Then it would just be the sound decoder in the AVR or Soundbar etc.

That would seem to depend on how much the "objects extension" (or perhaps "heights and objects extension") changes the character of the DTS-HDMA or TrueHD encode. The "best" scenario would obtain if the BD player just sees a "fatter" DTS-HDMA or TrueHD bitstream on the disc.

Just a lot of guesswork here. We're supposed to get real info about DTS-UHD in 2014.Q2, i.e., "now".

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post #135 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 03:46 PM
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Again, I just don't see them adding a new audio format to the current Blu-ray structure, especially at the the tail end of its "average" life cycle in the media world. It would be a marketing blunder. You always need to hold a carrot out to entice the consumer to move to the next new thing. Gotta push, push, push UHD tech.

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post #136 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 04:02 PM
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UHD with UHD sound :)

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post #137 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 04:05 PM
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I'm down for that but if object audio can be available now I'd like to have it now. I don't need a whole new home video format for that.

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post #138 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Even if they could without major sonic and surround performance compromises to these codecs due to storage size and bandwidth requirements, I really don't think they'll do it. ...It makes sense to start fresh with UHD.
Understood. Businesswise, I think it makes sense to start ASAP for reasons stated earlier (ROI). As for the logistics, I don't think the storage size and bandwidth requirements will be a problem for Blu-ray (and current BD players).

BTW, reading the discussion makes wish yet again that DTS had chosen a different name for the consumer version of MDA.

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post #139 of 160 Old 04-03-2014, 09:32 PM
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I'm guessing the answer is same as me, a DSP extrapolating out to the 7.1 soundtrack based on some algorithm the Fosgate and Lexicon engineers invented.
Right, for the first quarter century of consumer surround sound (1970-1995), it was 2-channel sources scaled to 4.0 or 5.1 or 7.1 speaker layouts. People didn't connect channels with speakers. The next two decades (1995-2015) was the discrete multi-channel era, and people getting into surround sound during that time somehow got the notion that the number of channels in the source material dictated the number of speakers used for playback.

Hopefully that constraint starts fading away as object audio rendering becomes the norm and consumers no longer base the number of speakers they use on the number of channels in the source. This way, people won't have to count how many 7.1-channel sources there are in order to justify a 7.1-speaker set-up.

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post #140 of 160 Old 04-04-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post

I'm guessing the answer is same as me, a DSP extrapolating out to the 7.1 soundtrack based on some algorithm the Fosgate and Lexicon engineers invented.
Right, for the first quarter century of consumer surround sound (1970-1995), it was 2-channel sources scaled to 4.0 or 5.1 or 7.1 speaker layouts. People didn't connect channels with speakers. The next two decades (1995-2015) was the discrete multi-channel era, and people getting into surround sound during that time somehow got the notion that the number of channels in the source material dictated the number of speakers used for playback.

Hopefully that constraint starts fading away as object audio rendering becomes the norm and consumers no longer base the number of speakers they use on the number of channels in the source. This way, people won't have to count how many 7.1-channel sources there are in order to justify a 7.1-speaker set-up.

I'm with you philosophically, but it is also true that discrete 4 channel analog tape, both open reel and (ugh!) 8 track were available from before 1970, on. The first demos of 4 channel were usually based on discrete 4 track tapes because the CD-4 discs couldn't sustain many playings without wiping out the ultrasonic carrier (about 10 plays, max), and the SQ matrix discs were capable of only relatively mild surround EFX. The expense of the players that actually worked and the marginal nature of the ones that pretty much didn't work conspired to keep the catalog of pre-recorded media pretty small. Also, the most popular playback format basically put a speaker in every corner of a room which is idea whose time never came.

This is a modern evaluation of that speaker setup:

http://www.ambisonic.net/ambidvd.html

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post #141 of 160 Old 04-04-2014, 11:25 AM
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You mentioned CD4 and SQ. There was also QS.
But... although today "ugh" 8-track (stereo or discrete quad) sounds like a nasty technology today, 40 years ago it was decent and portable from home to car.
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post #142 of 160 Old 04-04-2014, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

SMPTE is attempting to head this off at the pass by having Dolby and DTS come up with a way for them to integrate their Atmos and MDA (UHD in consumer gear) formats into some common open standard when spit out of the object mixing software for universal interoperability and speaker re-mapping, so there is wider adoption of object audio in the commercial and consumer markets. They believe that having two incompatible object and speaker mapping languages will hurt the industry in the long run.

Notice, Auro3D is not in the discussion because it is not an object based format. It's really the odd man out.

And when I say object based, I don't mean Dolby and DTS's solutions are purely object bitstreams. They're both hybrid channel + object formats.

Dan, We showed Auro MDA with Objects at AES this last year at the Auro-3D booth that I mixed at "The Dub Stage".
Auro can do objects via MDA . There is still an "Interop format" to be decided by SMPTE first.
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post #143 of 160 Old 04-04-2014, 06:58 PM
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Dan, We showed Auro MDA with Objects at AES this last year at the Auro-3D booth that I mixed at "The Dub Stage".
Auro can do objects via MDA . There is still an "Interop format" to be decided by SMPTE first.

So, the name of the game is still to use metadata controlled objects in surround mixing for the added flexibility, scalability, and expandability they offer (for instance, from a 9.1 channel base you can have any number of speakers-- from 20 to God-only-knows --you can reasonably dream up) and that one soundtrack will deliver the goods? The hold up in the industry is just figuring out the best way to get the most satisfying surround experience to the theater and the home and be compatible with the various electronic and speaker systems out there?

Am I getting the basic gist of things?

Do you think the consumer level object formats will have the built-in capabilities of their theatrical brethren and, if the consumer electronics manufacturers so choose, you could have the same kind of system in your home? Of course, that's if you had the space and the funds...

I really think there needs to be a modular component to these new receivers and pre-amps that wasn't there before, so you can start with a base amount of speakers you're comfortable with (like 9.1 or 11.1 plus bass managed surround sub outputs) and then expand up from there with linked add-on devices as I would assume is the case on the commercial venue side. The renderer will then "see" you've added more speakers and will output a more sophisticated surround track.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #144 of 160 Old 04-04-2014, 09:10 PM
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The future is exciting in both Theatrical and Consumer Sound .
I like where it is heading and we are at the forefront here at :
www.thedubstage.com
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post #145 of 160 Old 04-04-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post

The future is exciting in both Theatrical and Consumer Sound .
I like where it is heading and we are at the forefront here at :
www.thedubstage.com

Pretty damn cool dubbing stage you have there at... The Dub Stage. biggrin.gif

As object surround becomes more prevalent and specs. are ironed out, do you supposed you would expand your speaker array? For example, I've noticed on more than one occasion pictures and diagrams of consumer audio formats with 22 or so speakers plus subs.

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post #146 of 160 Old 04-05-2014, 12:02 AM
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Pretty damn cool dubbing stage you have there at... The Dub Stage. biggrin.gif

As object surround becomes more prevalent and specs. are ironed out, do you supposed you would expand your speaker array? For example, I've noticed on more than one occasion pictures and diagrams of consumer audio formats with 22 or so speakers plus subs.
Dan,
"The Dub Stage" has Meyer speaker system for Auro-3D consisting of
6 Meyer Acheron Speakers behind the screen in a L,C,R Low and a Left Height, Center Height and Right Height.
There are 24 Surround speakers
10 Lower Surrounds
10 Height Surrounds
4 Voice of God
There are 4 Meyer Dual 18" subs for LFE
and 3 Meyer Dual 12" subs that handle the bass managed surrounds.
The speakers have 27,500 Watts of power
Each speaker is self powered with Built in crossovers.
Each speaker is EQ'd and time delayed to the mix position.
Each speaker has a "home Run" to it so each speaker can be
sent a signal either as an array or individually as used with objects or both.
There are a total of 37 speakers being played through a QSC QSY that allows us to monitor our mixes in 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1,13.1, 22.1 or even 30.1
at a flick of a button.
We mix in Auro 3D 11.1 and Auro MDA ( with objects) . We have a Barco 2K Projector onto a 28'x12' 2.35 scope AT screen. We have a dual Avid Icon 64 Fader console
enabling us to mix with over 1700 Simo Virtual tracks
http://www.thedubstage.com/gallery-facility/
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post #147 of 160 Old 04-05-2014, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post

Dan,
"The Dub Stage" has Meyer speaker system for Auro-3D consisting of
6 Meyer Acheron Speakers behind the screen in a L,C,R Low and a Left Height, Center Height and Right Height.
There are 24 Surround speakers
10 Lower Surrounds
10 Height Surrounds
4 Voice of God
There are 4 Meyer Dual 18" subs for LFE
and 3 Meyer Dual 12" subs that handle the bass managed surrounds.
The speakers have 27,500 Watts of power
Each speaker is self powered with Built in crossovers.
Each speaker is EQ'd and time delayed to the mix position.
Each speaker has a "home Run" to it so each speaker can be
sent a signal either as an array or individually as used with objects or both.
There are a total of 37 speakers being played through a QSC QSY that allows us to monitor our mixes in 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1,13.1, 22.1 or even 30.1
at a flick of a button.
We mix in Auro 3D 11.1 and Auro MDA ( with objects) . We have a Barco 2K Projector onto a 28'x12' 2.35 scope AT screen. We have a dual Avid Icon 64 Fader console
enabling us to mix with over 1700 Simo Virtual tracks
http://www.thedubstage.com/gallery-facility/

Gotcha! I hadn't looked at the larger studio pictures and now I see all the extra speakers! Sweet!!! I want one of those in my house!! biggrin.gif

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #148 of 160 Old 04-05-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Gotcha! I hadn't looked at the larger studio pictures and now I see all the extra speakers! Sweet!!! I want one of those in my house!! biggrin.gif

Me too biggrin.gif
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post #149 of 160 Old 04-25-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post

Dan,
"The Dub Stage" has Meyer speaker system for Auro-3D consisting of
6 Meyer Acheron Speakers behind the screen in a L,C,R Low and a Left Height, Center Height and Right Height.
There are 24 Surround speakers
10 Lower Surrounds
10 Height Surrounds
4 Voice of God
There are 4 Meyer Dual 18" subs for LFE
and 3 Meyer Dual 12" subs that handle the bass managed surrounds.
The speakers have 27,500 Watts of power
Each speaker is self powered with Built in crossovers.
Each speaker is EQ'd and time delayed to the mix position.
Each speaker has a "home Run" to it so each speaker can be
sent a signal either as an array or individually as used with objects or both.
There are a total of 37 speakers being played through a QSC QSY that allows us to monitor our mixes in 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1,13.1, 22.1 or even 30.1
at a flick of a button.
We mix in Auro 3D 11.1 and Auro MDA ( with objects) . We have a Barco 2K Projector onto a 28'x12' 2.35 scope AT screen. We have a dual Avid Icon 64 Fader console
enabling us to mix with over 1700 Simo Virtual tracks
http://www.thedubstage.com/gallery-facility/

....plus one air hockey table diffuser smile.gif
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post #150 of 160 Old 04-25-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

SMPTE is attempting to head this off at the pass by having Dolby and DTS come up with a way for them to integrate their Atmos and MDA (UHD in consumer gear) formats into some common open standard when spit out of the object mixing software for universal interoperability and speaker re-mapping, so there is wider adoption of object audio in the commercial and consumer markets. They believe that having two incompatible object and speaker mapping languages will hurt the industry in the long run.


Oh come on now... that would require that the industry learn from past mistakes. rolleyes.gif That's about as likely to happen as them (the "industry", not necessarily Dolby or DTS) also admitting that HDCP only served to hurt legitimate user's capability to reliably operate the equipment they bought and did little to nothing to stop the piracy they are so worried about.
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