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post #121 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post


Taken to its logical conclusion, it should be recommended that people put their money on those things that make the most difference.


1) Room treatment

2) Speakers


3) Source



5) Amps and pre-amps




20) Speaker cables and interconnects






100) Power cords



Based on the blog responses I see, I would say 1) and 2) are basically consensual and indisputable. So IMO, until you have made substantial ground on the first two, its not very productive or very good use of ones $$$ to go at the others.

Spot on, Jim. It is odd that people will tolerate frequency response variations of as much as 20dB or more in a typical untreated room, with casual speaker and sub placement adding to the problem, yet they will chase microscopic differences in electronics as though their lives depended on it. 

+1

It is one of those true mysteries of life. I don't think that many people would do that if they were aware of the relative size of the problems. The DAC in a good AVR may have +/- 0.2 dB variation from 20-16 KHz where the ear has useful sensitivity. When people actually measure their system response with REW or something like it, they see exactly the 10 or 20 dB or even worse variations that you are talking about. To me its all about removing the beam in my eye, before I worry about the grain of dust.
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post #122 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Spot on, Jim. It is odd that people will tolerate frequency response variations of as much as 20dB or more in a typical untreated room, with casual speaker and sub placement adding to the problem, yet they will chase microscopic differences in electronics as though their lives depended on it. 

Perhaps a measurement mic and software should be #1 ?

I would guess most people (vast majority) with untreated rooms don't know what their data looks like. That is, they don't have a mic and software.


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post #123 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:13 PM
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+1

It is one of those true mysteries of life. I don't think that many people would do that if they were aware of the relative size of the problems. The DAC in a good AVR may have +/- 0.2 dB variation from 20-16 KHz where the ear has useful sensitivity. When people actually measure their system response with REW or something like it, they see exactly the 10 or 20 dB or even worse variations that you are talking about. To me its all about removing the beam in my eye, before I worry about the grain of dust.

One must be aware of the beam in the first place. biggrin.gif


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post #124 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Spot on, Jim. It is odd that people will tolerate frequency response variations of as much as 20dB or more in a typical untreated room, with casual speaker and sub placement adding to the problem, yet they will chase microscopic differences in electronics as though their lives depended on it. 

Perhaps a measurement mic and software should be #1 ?

I would guess most people (vast majority) with untreated rooms don't know what their data looks like. That is, they don't have a mic and software.

how about education as #1 or #0?
I've gotten on my soapbox with the below before.....
Quote:
I've re-posted this more than a few times in other threads when people start asking about acoustics......
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1312693/diy-construction-methods-of-hang-able-acoustic-panels-moveable-corner-traps-not-fixed-frames#post_19947420
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Discussion related to corner bass traps; gas flow resistivity, why cover them to reflect mid-high's, etc
[*] http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/177600-could-someone-help-out-interpreting-materials-gas-flow-properties.html
[*] http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/583307-nasa-lf-absorption-gas-flow-resistivity.html
[*] http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9610921-post12.html
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/1378864/does-gik-acoustic-panel-auralex-foam-suiting-my-room#post_21327290
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460653/on-covering-bass-traps
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/255432/acoustical-treatments-master-thread/8490#post_21513507
[*] http://www.avsforum.com/t/1354504/corner-bass-traps


Side note:
I have this general suggestion for those wanting to learn about acoustics:
A) read this Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide , via gearslutz, its a easy read in layman terms, starts you off with basics and good foundation with practical discussion. Studio acoustics and Home Theater acoustics.
From that, simple/straight forward advice via Jens Eklund:
Quote:
1. Learn how to make measurements: REW - Room EQ Wizard Home Page
Don’t do anything without measurements.
2. Define your MLP (Master listening position). Confirm with measurements.
3. Identify and treat your modal and SBIR - Speaker Boundary Interference Response related issues and educate yourself about different bass-absorbing techniques.
Other info: SBIR by Bryan Pape
4. Treat areas that otherwise creates early reflections.
5. If the room is big enough, add diffusers
Always base your decisions regarding different treatment, on measurements. Avoid thin porous only absorbers (including wall to wall –carpet, drapes etc.) unless a measurement indicates the need for it.
B) Knowing that for “best” audio/sound in a listening room, these parameters are tackled in prioritized order:
1. Speaker location, 2. Listener position, 3. Acoustic treatments, 4. Electronic correction.
Understand the small room acoustic model you will follow.
Looking at this link, everyone can see visually the various small room models, it's 7 pages from the book "Acoustics and Psychoacoustics Applied"

http://eetimes.com/design/audio-desi...n?pageNumber=0
C) If you have desire for more knowledge:
-read one of many books out there, a great 1st book is "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, a perfect follow-up book is "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd Toole.
-shameless plug for Ethan Winers book also, "The Audio Expert".

.. ..

-study Ethan Winers site, http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
-Become familiar with the different small room acoustic models for home listening spaces
-This is also a 101 read on Room Acoustics, http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html
-SAE Home Acoustics info site has many definitions and explanations http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/audio/pages/fullindex.htm
-There are many other sites on the web, like
........One of the first ones, StudioTips small room acoustics forum http://forum.studiotips.com/index.php,
........Acoustical measurements defined Rives audio http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/rives2.htm,
........RPG Acoustics Library papers http://www.rpginc.com/news/library.htm, etc.
-Be careful of info overload all at once

D) Measurement info/threads:
-online downloadable file with the Sound System Engineering chapter 6 on measurements http://www.focalpress.com/uploadedFiles/Books/Book_Media/Audio/9780240808307.pdf
-Get the hardware side of REW down quickly, this thread by member omegaslast dummy's guide on setting up REW and his blog http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html easy 101 read with pictures to walk you thru the mechanical of set-up and taking measurements
-Highly recommend Nyal Mellor's site, http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/Aco...surements.html , and a very detailed/helpful white paper http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/st...ist.%20Rms.pdf
-Room Measurement & Treatment by "fotto" (Floyd)


- Envelope Time Curve - ETC - Impulse gearslutz thread
-Using energy time curve for acoustic analysis: by "mtbdudex" (Mike R)
-http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421599/etc-isd-gap-question ETC - ISD gap by
-Basic acoustic measurement primer v2.1 (via gearslutz "DanDan")
-http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm


-http://www.avsforum.com/t/1316623/diy-custom-printed-movie-poster-acoustic-panels-cheap/60#post_20147783 DIY Custom-Printed Movie Poster Acoustic Panels
-first reflection software: http://www.avsforum.com/t/822273/free-software-to-help-determine-your-first-reflection-points/240#post_22619555
-a while back I downloaded this Measurement/calibration sequence from Dennis Erskine.

RoomMeasurementSet-up.zip 5k .zip file

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

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post #125 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:27 PM
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how about education as #1 or #0?

The best education is for someone to hear a room that has been treated and measured. smile.gif


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post #126 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Spot on, Jim. It is odd that people will tolerate frequency response variations of as much as 20dB or more in a typical untreated room, with casual speaker and sub placement adding to the problem, yet they will chase microscopic differences in electronics as though their lives depended on it. 

+1

It is one of those true mysteries of life. I don't think that many people would do that if they were aware of the relative size of the problems. The DAC in a good AVR may have +/- 0.2 dB variation from 20-16 KHz where the ear has useful sensitivity. When people actually measure their system response with REW or something like it, they see exactly the 10 or 20 dB or even worse variations that you are talking about. To me its all about removing the beam in my eye, before I worry about the grain of dust.

 

 

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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
Perhaps a measurement mic and software should be #1 ?

I would guess most people (vast majority) with untreated rooms don't know what their data looks like. That is, they don't have a mic and software.

 

 

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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
One must be aware of the beam in the first place. biggrin.gif

 

I think this is probably the main reason so many people make so many odd decisions.  If they could measure their room and see exactly what they are up against - problems which can only really be solved with good speaker and sub choices to begin with, then speaker and sub placement and room treatments - they would soon set aside the minute differences in electronics and concentrate their efforts and budget where the really big gains can be made. So maybe you are right - #1 perhaps should be a decent mic and REW or similar.



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post #127 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

how about education as #1 or #0?

The best education is for someone to hear a room that has been treated and measured. smile.gif

 

And when they do, all thoughts about changing amps and DACs and BD players and so on will soon evaporate from the higher echelons of the priority list. And as for 'high end' power cords making an audible difference.... well....



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post #128 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 12:53 PM
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And when they do, all thoughts about changing amps and DACs and BD players and so on will soon evaporate from the higher echelons of the priority list. And as for 'high end' power cords making an audible difference.... well....

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being room treatment, I would say new speakers was a 6 or 7, but getting a DAC was a 2 or 3. I know, many here will disagree that a $1K DAC is a worthy expense. But I just wanted to go on record in saying a better DAC can make a noticeable audible difference. A difference that may not be as noticeable, or noticeable at all in a untreated room with poor speakers. That said, I wouldn't do it until your room and speakers are up to the task first though.

While we seem to agree on the priority list, I would say items lower on the list will make a bigger difference when the things at the top of the list are addressed. Unfortunately, some seek sound improvement in a reverse priority fashion eek.gif


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post #129 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:00 PM
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You're missing the most important point. It isn’t that anyone GAF what people spend their own money on. The point is, people promote these falsehoods about cables, power cords etc and people who don't understand the technology fall for the claims and they waste a lot of their money buying stuff that can never make any audible difference to their sound quality. Dealers in 'high end' stuff regularly take people for an expensive ride by convincing them they need to spend hundreds of dollars on speaker wire, interconnects, HDMI cables and power cords. By exposing these scams for what they are, the hope is that it helps stop people from being ripped off in the future.

So long as someone realises that their $200 power cord is just eye candy and nothing more, that's fine. Who cares?  The problem arises when people actually spend their money and believe the hype and downright lies.
Well if thas the case..then that can be said about just about every product we buy. That 400 horsepower sports car that you lust over would be equally redundant being as you will never be able to hit the 150 mph its top rated speed implies unless you taking it to a track. So why buy that too. Hell, even wine is just as misleading. When consumed by the liter, the affect will be the same (whether its a $20 bottle of Wal-Mart chardonnay and $2000 bottle of chateau LAFITE from 1887), drunk as hell and unable to function properly. Bottom line is no1 person can dictate to another what is audible to him/her. This is a waist of a thread. You don't realize that the conversation just keeps going in circles. Your going to have many people who will disagree with you. Which is their right. But bullying..name calling...insulting 1s intellect because they don't agree with you. speakes way more about You than the person in disagreement. NO1 here is an audible JESUS yet everyone wants to speak like they are. How can 1s life be so consumed by the sound of their thoughts and beliefs that they will try and forcefully impede them onto others. and goes as far as to belittle people because they choose to disagree, science be damned. I mean their science behind global warming, yet people still don't and wont believe in it and that's their right. But the immature attitudes and name calling by some of you of VERY MATURE ages is shameful and makes a complete mockery of this forum. There has to be more to life. I for 1 am going to enjoy my very expensive audio system with 4 figure cables and all...cuddle up next to my lovely wife and listen to some JAZZ. I'm sure I will get a ton of snobbed responses and its ok. I'll still pitty and love you guys in the morning..smh lmaooo
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How can 1s life be so consumed by the sound of their thoughts and beliefs that they will try and forcefully impede them onto others.

Like, smh, yor impeding yor thoughts on to this thred?
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Don't "waist" your time... smile.gif
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Like, smh, yor impeding yor thoughts on to this thred?
toohay:D
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Don't "waist" your time... smile.gif

lol
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post #134 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:16 PM
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Don't "waist" your time... smile.gif
The smartest thing I have read the whole thread biggrin.gif
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post #135 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're missing the most important point. It isn’t that anyone GAF what people spend their own money on. The point is, people promote these falsehoods about cables, power cords etc and people who don't understand the technology fall for the claims and they waste a lot of their money buying stuff that can never make any audible difference to their sound quality. Dealers in 'high end' stuff regularly take people for an expensive ride by convincing them they need to spend hundreds of dollars on speaker wire, interconnects, HDMI cables and power cords. By exposing these scams for what they are, the hope is that it helps stop people from being ripped off in the future.

So long as someone realises that their $200 power cord is just eye candy and nothing more, that's fine. Who cares?  The problem arises when people actually spend their money and believe the hype and downright lies.
Well if thas the case..then that can be said about just about every product we buy. That 400 horsepower sports car that you lust over would be equally redundant being as you will never be able to hit the 150 mph its top rated speed implies unless you taking it to a track. So why buy that too. Hell, even wine is just as misleading. When consumed by the liter, the affect will be the same (whether its a $20 bottle of Wal-Mart chardonnay and $2000 bottle of chateau LAFITE from 1887), drunk as hell and unable to function properly. Bottom line is no1 person can dictate to another what is audible to him/her. This is a waist of a thread. You don't realize that the conversation just keeps going in circles. Your going to have many people who will disagree with you. Which is their right. But bullying..name calling...insulting 1s intellect because they don't agree with you. speakes way more about You than the person in disagreement. NO1 here is an audible JESUS yet everyone wants to speak like they are. How can 1s life be so consumed by the sound of their thoughts and beliefs that they will try and forcefully impede them onto others. and goes as far as to belittle people because they choose to disagree, science be damned. I mean their science behind global warming, yet people still don't and wont believe in it and that's their right. But the immature attitudes and name calling by some of you of VERY MATURE ages is shameful and makes a complete mockery of this forum. There has to be more to life. I for 1 am going to enjoy my very expensive audio system with 4 figure cables and all...cuddle up next to my lovely wife and listen to some JAZZ. I'm sure I will get a ton of snobbed responses and its ok. I'll still pitty and love you guys in the morning..smh lmaooo

 

Could you please quote back to me where I have bullied, insulted or name-called. If you can't I suggest you apologise and edit your post.

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post #136 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:21 PM
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And when they do, all thoughts about changing amps and DACs and BD players and so on will soon evaporate from the higher echelons of the priority list. And as for 'high end' power cords making an audible difference.... well....

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being room treatment, I would say new speakers was a 6 or 7, but getting a DAC was a 2 or 3. I know, many here will disagree that a $1K DAC is a worthy expense. But I just wanted to go on record in saying a better DAC can make a noticeable audible difference. A difference that may not be as noticeable, or noticeable at all in a untreated room with poor speakers. That said, I wouldn't do it until your room and speakers are up to the task first though.

While we seem to agree on the priority list, I would say items lower on the list will make a bigger difference when the things at the top of the list are addressed. Unfortunately, some seek sound improvement in a reverse priority fashion eek.gif

 

I’d have to see some objective evidence that anyone is able to hear an difference, reliably, between one decent DAC and another before I could go along with that. By 'decent' I mean the sort found in modern, mainstream AVRs. Any properly conducted blind ABX test would suffice...



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post #137 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:21 PM
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The smartest thing I have read the whole thread biggrin.gif

woosh
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post #138 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:22 PM
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So someone who joined a month ago is lecturing us on "making a mockery of the forum," and basing it on the fact that people are discussing the science behind a supposedly AV-related product on the AV Science forums? Do I have that right?
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post #139 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:25 PM
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I’d have to see some objective evidence that anyone is able to hear an difference, reliably, between one decent DAC and another before I could go along with that. By 'decent' I mean the sort found in modern, mainstream AVRs. Any properly conducted blind ABX test would suffice...

You mean we don't agree on everything? Imagine that smile.gif


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Rega - Apollo, Rega - DAC, Goldpoint Passive, (2) Classe CA-100 bridged power amps (350w)

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post #140 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

Well if thas the case..then that can be said about just about every product we buy. That 400 horsepower sports car that you lust over would be equally redundant being as you will never be able to hit the 150 mph its top rated speed implies unless you taking it to a track.

Not true for me. I love what 400 Hp or 600 Hp does for 0-80 which can be legally driven. I love the sound. I love what it can do for passing on 2 lane roads. I don't know if you realize this but max acceleration can run the engine up to full hp at the top of every gear.
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Bottom line is no1 person can dictate to another what is audible to him/her.

Unless one is deep into Solipsism, what is audible to him or her is not dictated by purely his wishes. Whet is audible to him is dependent or if you will dictated to him by his environment and the hearing equipment provided by nature.
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This is a waist of a thread.

We all have the option to go elsewhere, no?

If someone trashes a thread with name-calling then he can be accused of trying to dictate to others what they post.
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You don't realize that the conversation just keeps going in circles.

I suspect more so for the circular thinkers! ;-)

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Your going to have many people who will disagree with you. Which is their right.

Agreed.
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But bullying..name calling...insulting 1s intellect because they don't agree with you. speakes way more about You than the person in disagreement.

So what was said above isn't...?
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NO1 here is an audible JESUS yet everyone wants to speak like they are.

So what was said above isn't...?
Quote:
How can 1s life be so consumed by the sound of their thoughts and beliefs that they will try and forcefully impede them onto others. and goes as far as to belittle people because they choose to disagree, science be damned.

My view is that this is a marketplace of ideas. Ideas sell based on their innate character as being true and reasonable and also how they are expressed.
Quote:
I mean their science behind global warming, yet people still don't and wont believe in it and that's their right. But the immature attitudes and name calling by some of you of VERY MATURE ages is shameful and makes a complete mockery of this forum.

The previous sentence might be interpreted as calling people "name callers", no?
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There has to be more to life. I for 1 am going to enjoy my very expensive audio system with 4 figure cables and all...cuddle up next to my lovely wife and listen to some JAZZ. I'm sure I will get a ton of snobbed responses and its ok. I'll still pitty and love you guys in the morning..smh lmaooo

Let me guess. A perceived need to defend and assert the correctness of some cable purchases in the face of contrary opinions? ;-) Heck, I didn't even know about them 'till now!
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post #141 of 146 Old 02-26-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I’d have to see some objective evidence that anyone is able to hear an difference, reliably, between one decent DAC and another before I could go along with that. By 'decent' I mean the sort found in modern, mainstream AVRs. Any properly conducted blind ABX test would suffice...

You mean we don't agree on everything? Imagine that smile.gif

 

LOL - quite!  



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post #142 of 146 Old 02-28-2014, 10:08 AM
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FISH ON!!!!!!!
C'mon.... stop with this baiting (no pun intended).

This thread should have been a "catch and release" from the start.

Crap (or Carp) like this only creates ill feelings between posters. It's become off-topic and destructive as opposed to constructive.

Time for mod intervention?
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post #143 of 146 Old 02-28-2014, 10:13 AM
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Yeah, we're done here.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #144 of 146 Old 04-11-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW
"How about the bias controlled tests that show no power cord has ever been audible?"

I don't believe in these products anymore than you, but can you provide some sources with documentation to any bias control test producing null results on these power cords?

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #145 of 146 Old 04-11-2014, 03:12 PM
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Dr. Don... sorry I mentioned this thread was reopened. Didn't take long for the fish to smell the chum. rolleyes.gif
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post #146 of 146 Old 05-01-2014, 05:25 AM
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Great cables. My HT is wired with them (PCs and xlrs). A/B them many times with many people (some enthusiasts some not). Could sell them tomorrow and get back what I paid, but these cables aren't going anywhere. wink.gif. Not baiting, just giving my opinion.
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