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post #541 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 02:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If your speakers do not require high current, then the extra current is never used.

A lot of people use a modest AVR along with high current external amplifiers so they do not have to pay up for THX rated AVR power.

There are some that disagree, like Gene over at Audioholics. He thinks that massive power can still result in sonic improvements at lower output levels. Argued with him over this very subject and apparently I lost. I was then subsequently banned for a week. biggrin.gif
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post #542 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


To clarify, there are current limiters in all well-designed amplifiers whether explicit or implicit in order to prevent destruction of equipment when the amp is shorted, which will happen in the field.

However, these current limters settings are typically fixed, and therefore don't change no matter how many channels are being used. The current limits that show up in some ACD tests are implicit, and simply based on the power amp power supply loosing output voltage due to resistive and magnetic losses, primarily in the power transformer.



That is not the type of limiter they were referring to. Quoted from page 5 of the link below:


"The problem however (as documented in our previous article: The All Channels Driven Test Controversy) is that many budget products are designed for real world performance and must make trade offs for safety and heat dissipation reasons. As a result, they design their amps to be dynamic, but limit the total output capability of the product with a limiter that activates if more than three channels are driven at full power. The result of driving more than three channels at full power is reduced power delivery to all channels to satisfy the heat dissipation requirements of UL, as well as the manufacturer's requirements for dependability and reliability. Thus, when a publication does the classic ACD test into 5 or 7 channels, the reader can get the wrong impression that the amplifier isn't very capable at delivering power despite the fact it exceeds manufacturers specs with flying colors with only one or two channels driven continuously, and also satisfies the old FTC mandate for rating power into two channels."



Full content here:

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-all-channels-driven-acd-amplifier-test

Interesting. I'm going to have to keep my eyes open as I'm reviewing schematics to see how this is accomplished. It could all be done inside the DSP.
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post #543 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

To clarify, there are current limiters in all well-designed amplifiers whether explicit or implicit in order to prevent destruction of equipment when the amp is shorted, which will happen in the field.
You can have a "well designed" amp that doesn't have a current limit nor blows up when subjected to shorts. The answer to how this is done was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Self contradictory. It's excess current & resulting excess power dissipation that kills output transistors, and there is no way for them to survive unless the current flow through them is kept within reason. The current will be limited by some means or there will be permanent damage.
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Current limiters can have unintended consequences that only the best designers know how to deal with. You should approach them with caution.

At this point the problem has been around so long and effectively solved so many ways that there should be no unintended consequences except among amateur builders.

In some people's minds a current limiter is a specific simplistic circuit. The larger view is that anything whose end result is limited current is a current limiter. For example amps with upwards of 20 large output transistors per channel can rely on more implicit means for limiting current.
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post #544 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

There are some that disagree, like Gene over at Audioholics. He thinks that massive power can still result in sonic improvements at lower output levels. Argued with him over this very subject and apparently I lost. I was then subsequently banned for a week. biggrin.gif

The fact that he uses 1000 watt mono blocks for his front speakers couldn't be a motivation for that could it?
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post #545 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 08:56 AM
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How come with subs more power = better... but not with a speaker even if it is playing full range?

Could we all get by with 100 watt subs?

Why do we have 1000 watt subs?
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post #546 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

How come with subs more power = better... but not with a speaker even if it is playing full range?

Could we all get by with 100 watt subs?

Why do we have 1000 watt subs?

somebody will hit this on the head, but every octave down you go requires either twice the excursion and four times the power or twice the power and four times the excursion. SO simply going lower requires more power. Then, when you need a driver that won't die under the higher power, you have to make everything - spider, cone, voice coil - heavier. Heavier things are harder to move (curl 25 pounds. Now curl 100 pounds, if you can - I never maxed more than about 60 with dumbells but I'm a wimp except my shoulders but that's way off topic). So the driver that can handle the power might be 3 dB less sensitive than the lighter driver that would be happy at 100 watts. That means the driver in the more powerful system needs, at least, 200 watts simply to EQUAL the lighter driver. We haven't even gotten to the increased capability yet. To get 3 dB louder, it needs 400 watts . . . and if it's not 3 dB louder, the extra loudness is probably irrelevant in real listening situations.
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post #547 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

There are some that disagree, like Gene over at Audioholics. He thinks that massive power can still result in sonic improvements at lower output levels. Argued with him over this very subject and apparently I lost. I was then subsequently banned for a week. biggrin.gif

sometimes the truth is unacceptable to the powers that be. See, e.g., Gallileo.
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post #548 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 09:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

sometimes the truth is unacceptable to the powers that be. See, e.g., Gallileo.

He absolutely despises DBTs and DBT supporters. smile.gif Oh well, banned for a week. Will go for a round 2, but I might lose again. biggrin.gif
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post #549 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 10:04 AM
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The purpose of the audio press is to sell subscriptions and the purpose of dealers is to sell equipment. When audible differences disappear subscription and equipment sales often decline with them. It is the consumers of audio that benefit from the progress of objectivism in audio, not the industry. I had to give up Audioholics. I tired of the hatred aimed at me there. I get it here as well but at least there are a lot more of us here so the hatred is spread around more..
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post #550 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

somebody will hit this on the head, but every octave down you go requires either twice the excursion and four times the power or twice the power and four times the excursion. SO simply going lower requires more power.

Wouldn't this apply to large full range speakers as well? Yet some people think you would never use anything near a 100 watts...???

But a 100 watt sub would be laughed at these days.
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post #551 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Wouldn't this apply to large full range speakers as well? Yet some people think you would never use anything near a 100 watts...???

But a 100 watt sub would be laughed at these days.

From following these discussions the point I come away with is that if one truly had a "full range speaker" then to hit the notes most people now send to the sub probably would need more power unless it was a totally Horn loaded system and that those speaker would be quite large...That said, with the advent of the modern sub those notes can be played more efficiently using one and speaker designers seem to keep that in mind given where the Market seems to be. IOW an actual "full range speaker" to compete with a Sub + Speaker combination would be pretty expensive, large and not much of a market because of those reasons. My 2 cents.
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post #552 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

IOW an actual "full range speaker" to compete with a Sub + Speaker combination would be pretty expensive, large and not much of a market because of those reasons.

I don't know what speakers Gene at Audioholics was using, but many big full range speakers do use quite robust sub drivers and some do even call for a separate individual amp just for the sub driver.

It seems a bit hypocritical to be mocking someone for using 1000 watt monoblocks on their speakers when many people here have probably got a couple of 1000 watt subs in their rooms.
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post #553 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Wouldn't this apply to large full range speakers as well?
No!

Full range speakers rarely claim reference level in the 20-30 Hz range. Now go back and read JHAz's post again.
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post #554 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

IOW an actual "full range speaker" to compete with a Sub + Speaker combination would be pretty expensive, large and not much of a market because of those reasons.

I don't know what speakers Gene at Audioholics was using, but many big full range speakers do use quite robust sub drivers and some do even call for a separate individual amp just for the sub driver.

It seems a bit hypocritical to be mocking someone for using 1000 watt monoblocks on their speakers when many people here have probably got a couple of 1000 watt subs in their rooms.

 

The point is that to dig really deep is massively demanding of amp power if Reference level bass is to be achieved. Almost no 'full range' speakers dig below 30Hz so the requirement for power is way less. But to reproduce <20Hz at 115dB takes serious amps, which is what are found in serious subs, for that very reason.

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post #555 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The point is that to dig really deep is massively demanding of amp power if Reference level bass is to be achieved. Almost no 'full range' speakers dig below 30Hz so the requirement for power is way less. But to reproduce <20Hz at 115dB takes serious amps, which is what are found in serious subs, for that very reason.

But not in serious speakers..?

There is nothing magical and different about subwoofers other than being detached from the speakers.
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post #556 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The point is that to dig really deep is massively demanding of amp power if Reference level bass is to be achieved. Almost no 'full range' speakers dig below 30Hz so the requirement for power is way less. But to reproduce <20Hz at 115dB takes serious amps, which is what are found in serious subs, for that very reason.

But not in serious speakers..?

There is nothing magical and different about subwoofers other than being detached from the speakers.

That is true, however it just seems to turn out that every speaker under $5K each that I've seen with an alleged built in subwoofer has not contained anything like a mainstream 15" subwoofer running over $500. .
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post #557 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That is true, however it just seems to turn out that every speaker under $5K each that I've seen with an alleged built in subwoofer has not contained anything like a mainstream 15" subwoofer running over $500. .

Here is a set of speakers with two 15" subs and each 15" with its own 1000 watt amp.

www.avsforum.com/t/761168/initial-impressions-of-evolution-acoustics-mm3-loudspeaker#post_9058847

There are lots of speaker designs like this out there. And some of these designs only supply passive sub drivers and you need to provide your own outboard amps for them.

Would a 100 watt amp be suffice..??
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post #558 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That is true, however it just seems to turn out that every speaker under $5K each that I've seen with an alleged built in subwoofer has not contained anything like a mainstream 15" subwoofer running over $500. .

Here is a set of speakers with two 15" subs and each 15" with its own 1000 watt amp.

www.avsforum.com/t/761168/initial-impressions-of-evolution-acoustics-mm3-loudspeaker#post_9058847

There are lots of speaker designs like this out there. And some of these designs only supply passive sub drivers and you need to provide your own outboard amps for them.

Would a 100 watt amp be suffice..??

I checked those speakers out and it appears that their MSRP was $35,000 a piece when they were in production.

What's unclear about "... every speaker under $5K each that I've seen..." ? ;-)
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post #559 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I checked those speakers out and it appears that their MSRP was $35,000 a piece when they were in production.

What's unclear about "... every speaker under $5K each that I've seen..." ? ;-)

Why did you even mention a price bracket? Do you think speakers above $5K don't exist.?
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post #560 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 03:37 PM
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Why did you even mention a price bracket? Do you think speakers above $5K don't exist.?

I think the point most here are making is that for a speaker to reach what you are asking it to do isn't going to be affordable compared to the same criteria used for Reference level in a Speaker and sub configuration. I may be wrong but do you have a particular speaker in mind that can do this?
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post #561 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I checked those speakers out and it appears that their MSRP was $35,000 a piece when they were in production.

What's unclear about "... every speaker under $5K each that I've seen..." ? ;-)

Why did you even mention a price bracket?

To keep the discussion reasonable. The fact that there are $35,000 speakers that may or may not include competent subwoofers (just because it is 15" in diameter dosn't mean that it is a competent subwoofer) is irrelevant to most audiophiles.

Besides, its generally agreed that forcibly co-locating the subwoofer with the L&R speakers is suboptimal in most cases.
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Do you think speakers above $5K don't exist.?

The above question in context is really pretty strange. Having memory problems? Who do you think you are talking to? IMO, that comment would be in bad taste, even if asked to a newbie.
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post #562 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Here is a set of speakers with two 15" subs and each 15" with its own 1000 watt amp.

www.avsforum.com/t/761168/initial-impressions-of-evolution-acoustics-mm3-loudspeaker#post_9058847

There are lots of speaker designs like this out there. And some of these designs only supply passive sub drivers and you need to provide your own outboard amps for them.

Would a 100 watt amp be suffice..??
Assuming the "sub" is designed for high power and high excursion (ie relatively inefficient) the designer would need to pad doen the other drivers in an all-passive system. Since you would be wasting half the power (or so) above the "sub's" passband by sending it to a resistor, sure you would need lots of power. But while it is afaik well established that tweeters are often padded down (and its kind of no huge loss given power distribution) I am not aware of widespread padding of midrange drivers. Not sure I would want a sub-style driver trying to accurately reproduce 2000-3000 Hz in a two way system . . .
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post #563 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 05:11 PM
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To bring our fantasy situation full circle, back to passive bi-amping.

Assuming a 1,000 watt mono block is needed to get maximum low bass output from a tower speaker, passively bi-amping any AV Receiver with its rear channel amps is a pretty sad solution. Even McGyver with a THX Mega-ultra powered 200wpc AV Receiver wouldn't try to pull that one off. Not even with a NHT amp in each of his commando pant cargo pockets.

Just get the big amps. Give them dedicated home wiring. Hook them up with speaker wire named after mountain peaks. Let the mid woofers and tweeters sip contentedly from the ocean of power and be done with it.
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post #564 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If your speakers do not require high current, then the extra current is never used..

Confucius says?
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A lot of people use a modest AVR along with high current external amplifiers so they do not have to pay up for THX rated AVR power.

I think its a good idea to buy the more expensive Receivers because they include more powerful features. The last time I checked specs and prices (about six years ago), Receivers below $1,000 were somewhat handicapped; and those in the $3,000 or above range were somewhat inferior to seperates.

Comparing Yamaha models (circa 2008) RX-V663 $500 and RX-V3900 $1,900 you'll see significant differences in EQ choices, surround setup flexibility, number of hdmi inputs, and so forth. Missing in the 663 is subwoofer EQ, EQ below 60Hz, Q adjustment, flexibility to choose parameters in the auto-setup, back-lit remote, and so forth. Of course the 663 is rated 90wpc and the 3900 140wpc, two hdmi inputs vs four, and the 3900 has Internet networking input/volume controls that work very nicely with a multi-zone config.
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post #565 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

The purpose of the audio press is to sell subscriptions and the purpose of dealers is to sell equipment. When audible differences disappear subscription and equipment sales often decline with them. It is the consumers of audio that benefit from the progress of objectivism in audio, not the industry.
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Confucius say: The superior man understand what is right. The inferior man understand what will sell.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

To keep the discussion reasonable. The fact that there are $35,000 speakers that may or may not include competent subwoofers (just because it is 15" in diameter dosn't mean that it is a competent subwoofer) is irrelevant to most audiophiles.

What an arrogant and small minded thing to declare. Hey, why not pluck $2K out of thin air and limit discussions to speakers below that price that "you consider" to be reasonable..???

Try not to blow your mind on this, but scroll through these threads and try to fathom what kind of budget people are prepared to spend on speakers...

www.avsforum.com/t/1217536/lets-see-pics-of-your-stereo-setup/720
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post #567 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

To keep the discussion reasonable. The fact that there are $35,000 speakers that may or may not include competent subwoofers (just because it is 15" in diameter dosn't mean that it is a competent subwoofer) is irrelevant to most audiophiles.

What an arrogant and small minded thing to declare.

So you haven't noticed that the market for speakers costing > $5K is smaller than the market for speakers costing < $5.
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Hey, why not pluck $2K out of thin air and limit discussions to speakers below that price that "you consider" to be reasonable..???

I didn't limit discussions to speakers below any particular financial figure. I just picked a certain price range for the purposes of discusison.
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Try not to blow your mind on this, but scroll through these threads and try to fathom what kind of budget people are prepared to spend on speakers...

www.avsforum.com/t/1217536/lets-see-pics-of-your-stereo-setup/720

Not news to me. I sense pent up rage.
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post #568 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 09:14 PM
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This place is a joke. AV"Science"

It should be called... AV"what kbarnes701 and FMW and arnyk thinks"
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post #569 of 651 Old 04-18-2014, 11:24 PM
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This place is a joke. AV"Science"

It should be called... AV"what kbarnes701 and FMW and arnyk thinks"

if that is how you feel, you dont need to read or post here.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
LOL!
Why you wouldn't want to join this forum
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post #570 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Here is a set of speakers with two 15" subs and each 15" with its own 1000 watt amp.

www.avsforum.com/t/761168/initial-impressions-of-evolution-acoustics-mm3-loudspeaker#post_9058847
They're not subs but midbass drivers. I use similar drivers from Acoustic Elegance in my mains as well.
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