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post #571 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The point is that to dig really deep is massively demanding of amp power if Reference level bass is to be achieved. Almost no 'full range' speakers dig below 30Hz so the requirement for power is way less. But to reproduce <20Hz at 115dB takes serious amps, which is what are found in serious subs, for that very reason.

But not in serious speakers..?

There is nothing magical and different about subwoofers other than being detached from the speakers.

 

You missed what I wrote.  Speakers rarely reproduce anything of significance, at high SPL, below 30Hz. Subs do.  The thing that is different about subs from speakers is that subs dig down into single digits quite often, and they play loud at <20Hz. Speakers don't. So subs demand more power. This is so obvious it isn't worth discussing,



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post #572 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:49 AM
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This place is a joke. AV"Science"

It should be called... AV"what kbarnes701 and FMW and arnyk thinks"

 

Or how about what kiwi2 doesn’t know. That would make a huge thread eh? ;)



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post #573 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

They're not subs but midbass drivers. I use similar drivers from Acoustic Elegance in my mains as well.

I see their -3dB is 10hz-40khz.

What crossovers do they employ for each driver?
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post #574 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I see their -3dB is 10hz-40khz.

What crossovers do they employ for each driver?
I made my comment based upon John at AE stating they were derivatives of the TD series drivers, which are definitely not subs. I know as I own 8 of them.
Without measurements to back it up, I am highly dubious of a sealed LF drivers having a -3dB point of 10Hz: it's Fs would need to be lower still.
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post #575 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I made my comment based upon John at AE stating they were derivatives of the TD series drivers, which are definitely not subs. I know as I own 8 of them.
Without measurements to back it up, I am highly dubious of a sealed LF drivers having a -3dB point of 10Hz: it's Fs would need to be lower still.

Here's the specifications on the MM3...


I wonder what crossover point they play down from.
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post #576 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 02:33 AM
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Here's the specifications on the MM3...


I wonder what crossover point they play down from.
I've read the specs, but am still very dubious that they are accurate. No idea re the xovers.
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post #577 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 07:51 AM
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This place is a joke. AV"Science"

It should be called... AV"what kbarnes701 and FMW and arnyk thinks"

This place is a marketplace for ideas. I'm very willing to have my posts stand on their technical merits.

Are you?
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post #578 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I've read the specs, but am still very dubious that they are accurate. No idea re the xovers.
I have listened to MM3s and they have exceptional dynamics. What has been your experience in listening to them?

Here is a personal example: Revel Salon2: http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/details/42#specs
Frequency Response - 3 dB from 23 Hz to 45 kHz ±0.5 dB from 29 Hz to 18 kHz ±1.0 dB from 26 Hz to 20 kHz
Low Frequency Extension -10 dB at 17 Hz -6 dB at 20 Hz -3 dB at 23 Hz

Here is the measured response of each driver by stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements

708Revfig03.jpg
Fig.3 Revel Ultima Salon2, nearfield responses of port (black), woofers (green), lower-midrange unit (red), and upper midrange unit (blue), all plotted in the ratios of the square roots of their radiating areas.

As you see, it goes pretty low. I tested our Salon2 with three amps: 250, 300 and 400 watts. In a large room, the 400 watt was the only amp that caused my ears to complain before the speaker did smile.gif. With the others, I could notice the bass not keeping up before it reached reference level to my ears. I asked my good friend Kevin Voecks who heads speaker design at harman and he made the same comment.

The reason for such high power requirements is the same as why there is high power requirement in subs. In the past, big speaker boxes were desirable as that showed you that you knew "hifi." Today, people want diminutive speakers that don't stand out. As a result we have much smaller enclosures than in the past which causes the efficiency to go down. So Kiwi is very much right on his comment that if you have proper full range speakers, you need much more power than the "AVR spec" that gets thrown around as being sufficient for every need including solving hunger problem in Africa. smile.gif

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post #579 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I see their -3dB is 10hz-40khz.

What crossovers do they employ for each driver?
I made my comment based upon John at AE stating they were derivatives of the TD series drivers, which are definitely not subs. I know as I own 8 of them.
Without measurements to back it up, I am highly dubious of a sealed LF drivers having a -3dB point of 10Hz: it's Fs would need to be lower still.



Those speakers are driven by an internal 1000 watt RMS amplifier, so internal amplifier EQ was applied to get that 10 Hz figure. Regardless, 10 Hz at how many dB SPL in output level and in what type of room?
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post #580 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post


Here is the measured response of each driver by stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements

708Revfig03.jpg
Fig.3 Revel Ultima Salon2, nearfield responses of port (black), woofers (green), lower-midrange unit (red), and upper midrange unit (blue), all plotted in the ratios of the square roots of their radiating areas.

As you see, it goes pretty low.

Lots of things go low, but how cleanly they do that is of the essence. I see no measurements of nonlinear distortion so for all I know these puppies are doubling like there is no tomorrow at levels that a good dedicated subwoofer would take in stride, Potential clean bass goes up with the cube of driver diameter, and that puts the 3 x 8" drivers behind the 8-ball as compared to a single 15" which is what you find in good dedicated subwoofers.
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post #581 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 10:47 AM
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so for all I know these puppies are doubling like there is no tomorrow.

Regardless of what you think... the questions is would they perform better with a 400 watt amp over only having a 100 watts available to them. Yes. For the same reason people would rather have 400 watt subs over 100 watt subs.
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post #582 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:25 PM
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so for all I know these puppies are doubling like there is no tomorrow.

Regardless of what you think... the questions is would they perform better with a 400 watt amp over only having a 100 watts available to them. Yes. For the same reason people would rather have 400 watt subs over 100 watt subs.

The answer to this question like many others is that it all about efficiency, preferences for SPL, and area over which the bass sound field is being established.

The big caveat is that the ear is not all that sensitive to bass, and so the SPLs can be higher than regular music frequencies. OTOH subwoofers need to be pretty robust to generate high SPLs at very low frequencies, and are thus often over powered at the lowest frequencies.
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post #583 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 01:47 PM
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Regardless of what you think... the questions is would they perform better with a 400 watt amp over only having a 100 watts available to them. Yes. For the same reason people would rather have 400 watt subs over 100 watt subs.

Without knowing the sensitivity of the low frequency drivers can you say that with complete certainty? You are supplying a definitive answer without complete information. Don't get me wrong, if I HAD to guess (and GUESSING is all that I can do given information provided by the manufacturer specs and Stereophile measurements) I would agree with you.

The manufacturer advertises 86.4dB sensitivity, but no frequency range is given. The manufacturer offers no power rating. Stereophile's impedance plot indicates an average 4ohm impedance below the 150Hz crossover.

Assuming a peak reference level 105dB is desired and the Revel bass drivers' sensitivity 86dB 1 watt; using my crude calculations: about 600 watts peak in an anechoic environment is needed to achieve the desired room SPL with a seating distance nine feet from the speaker. In a non-anechoic environment, about half the power, 300 watts, would be sufficient.

Will the Revel speaker handle 300 watts without driver compression? Probably. Can a 100 watt amp peak at 300 watts? Probably not. But lets go back to the central point of the discussion:
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Hi everyone,

Recently bought myself the new B&W CM10 speakers. I want to bi-amp these speakers to get the most out of them. Some people say that I need maximum power. I think just for peace of mind I want to give them all the juice I can.

I have a Yamaha 5ch 1010 receiver and a Rotel RMB-1075 5ch power amp. The 1075 is 120 watts x 5. Bi-amping the front two channels will give me 240 watts.


What do you think of my setup?

Will passive bi-amping the Revel or the B&W CM10 with a 120 watt multi-channel amp improve sound quality?
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post #584 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 02:18 PM
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This place is a joke. AV"Science"

It should be called... AV"what kbarnes701 and FMW and arnyk thinks"

You seem to be forgetting the significant contributions of others. I distinctly recall another discussion member recommending:

a.) buy all of the power you can afford
b.) buy twice as much power for the center channel

I don't recall you speaking up. Maybe you didn't read those posts.

Let me call into question those recommendations. Suppose that I have about $15,000 in my checking account that can be used for discretionary spending and utilizing the Polk Audio LsiC center channel speaker in my surround sound setup. Quite a bit of power can be bought with just a fraction of that money. The LsiC sensitivity is rated 89dB and 200 watts max power. Further suppose that I'm using a 140wpc m/c Receiver to power the center speaker and dual twelve inch subwoofers providing output for frequencies below 80Hz. I would be looking for a 280 watt amp to power the center channel, if the advice is heeded.

Can you see where the advice could lead to a fairly severe misadventure in audio purchases?
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post #585 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 02:23 PM
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The answer to this question like many others is that it all about efficiency, preferences for SPL, and area over which the bass sound field is being established.

The big caveat is that the ear is not all that sensitive to bass, and so the SPLs can be higher than regular music frequencies. OTOH subwoofers need to be pretty robust to generate high SPLs at very low frequencies, and are thus often over powered at the lowest frequencies.

I often wonder why so many folks are buying tower speakers with multiple bass drivers when they plan to install a subwoofer. Sometimes it makes some economic sense, but seldom in the posts that I'm reading.
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post #586 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 03:54 PM
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Without knowing the sensitivity of the low frequency drivers can you say that with complete certainty? You are supplying a definitive answer without complete information. Don't get me wrong, if I HAD to guess (and GUESSING is all that I can do given information provided by the manufacturer specs and Stereophile measurements) I would agree with you.

The manufacturer advertises 86.4dB sensitivity, but no frequency range is given. The manufacturer offers no power rating. Stereophile's impedance plot indicates an average 4ohm impedance below the 150Hz crossover.

Imagine those 3 x 8" drivers were being sold separately as a subwoofer for 150hz and down. (I have seen 2 x 8" subs on the market so this isn't a big stretch of the imagination)



Now a relative or family friend comes to you and says I am going to buy one of these subs. They do a 100 watt model or for another hundred dollars I could get the 400 watt version. Which one should I get? What would you recommend?
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post #587 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 04:53 PM
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You're asking a question of which I've already supplied an answer.
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post #588 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 05:09 PM
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PS.... Forgot to add. I would be glad to address any questions that you have regarding my recent posts.
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post #589 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 05:31 PM
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You're asking a question of which I've already supplied an answer.

Then what was all the rest of that blah blah blah about?
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post #590 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 05:37 PM
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Then what was all the rest of that blah blah blah about?

Which blah, blah, blah would that be? Forget my offer to explain as your consistent rudeness concerning trivial matters such as home entertainment equipment seems way out of proportion.
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post #591 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 07:58 PM
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I often wonder why so many folks are buying tower speakers with multiple bass drivers when they plan to install a subwoofer. Sometimes it makes some economic sense, but seldom in the posts that I'm reading.
For a very simple reason, cleaner midbass especially as the SPL rises. Larger or multiple midbass drivers will require less excursion to reach a given SPL and all drivers have a very non linear transfer function so distortion increases with excursion. I have a pair of 15's in each of my mains.
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post #592 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 08:25 PM
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The CM 10 state up to 300watts maximum. If you want the most power with lots of reserves just use a 300w amp. You don't need to bi-amp when its a passive crossover. I owned the B&W 802D. My terminal cap got broke and I had to replace it. I took the bottom off so I could solder the replacement. It was interesting to see both terminals were wired together on the inside. Yep, 2 blacks to a single black and 2 reds to a single red. Those wires then ran to the crossover. so it would make NO difference to bi-amp. If your curious remove the bottom and look at your terminals. That's if you can unscrew the bottom to look inside the speaker.
Your speakers are 90db so you may be ok with your Rotel amp. I tried a Rotel amp with the 802D and they fell flat. Once I connected a 500w amp they soundstage appeared and they sounded awesome. So if your not happy with the sound just add a more powerful amp.

QSC 2150 for HT
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post #593 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 10:40 PM
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Besides, its generally agreed that forcibly co-locating the subwoofer with the L&R speakers is suboptimal in most cases.

And BTW did you notice the design aspect of these particular speakers...





Placing a sub driver top and bottom also helps overcome room nodes. Many people place multiple subs around a room but usually end up placing them all on the floor and forget about the vertical plane. Placing some subs low and some subs high is just as effective. (I use four subs in my room with one of the subs placed high up near the ceiling)

If I was building my own full range tower speakers I would probably do the same as pictured above. Advantages would be keeping bass stereo and also closer to equal distance from the LP.
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post #594 of 651 Old 04-19-2014, 10:57 PM
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And BTW did you notice the design aspect of these particular speakers...





Placing a sub driver top and bottom also helps overcome room nodes. Many people place multiple subs around a room but usually end up placing them all on the floor and forget about the vertical plane. Placing some subs low and some subs high is just as effective. (I use four subs in my room with one of the subs placed high up near the ceiling)

If I was building my own full range tower speakers I would probably do the same as pictured above. Advantages would be keeping bass stereo and also closer to equal distance from the LP.
The main vertical mode is at half room height, so this arrangement won't really help even if they are actually subs and not midbasses. I'm building 4 of my subs so that they each have one driver at mid wall height and one near the floor.

A vertically symmetrical array has the advantage of controlling vertical dispersion minimising the effect of floor and ceiling reflections as well as doubling the volume displacement of all but the HF drivers.
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post #595 of 651 Old 04-20-2014, 12:20 AM
 
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Those are some incredibly expensive speakers and I see no acoustic treatment in sight.
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post #596 of 651 Old 04-20-2014, 12:20 AM
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A vertically symmetrical array has the advantage of controlling vertical dispersion minimising the effect of floor and ceiling reflections as well as doubling the volume displacement of all but the HF drivers.

True. My next build is probably going to be a line array of 3" full range drivers. (with the help of subs of course)

The 4 x 3" array I am currently using as a bit of dabbling the toes in the water is sounding surprisingly good.
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post #597 of 651 Old 04-20-2014, 12:59 AM
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True. My next build is probably going to be a line array of 3" full range drivers. (with the help of subs of course)

The 4 x 3" array I am currently using as a bit of dabbling the toes in the water is sounding surprisingly good.
It will be interesting to see how they come out.

One of my first designs was a large line array (3 way sort of like an Infinity IRS) but I didn't like it as much as some of the other designs and speakers I heard at the time and I was young and sharing houses and they weren't very practical. I may revisit the concept some time in the future especially if I get the right drivers at the right price.
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post #598 of 651 Old 04-20-2014, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

so for all I know these puppies are doubling like there is no tomorrow.

Regardless of what you think... the questions is would they perform better with a 400 watt amp over only having a 100 watts available to them. Yes. For the same reason people would rather have 400 watt subs over 100 watt subs.

 

Do you keep missing the point on purpose?  Subs need big amps because it takes a lot of power to reproduce <20Hz at 115dB. Speakers don't do that, so they don't need as much power to reproduce their frequency range to 105dB. Of course, if you had a full range speaker that could reproduce 15Hz-20kHz, flat, at 115dB, then that speaker would need the same power as a comparable sub. But speakers like that either don't exist or cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, so they are hardly relevant to the discussion.  Your continual conflation of subs and their power needs with speakers and their power needs is strange.



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post #599 of 651 Old 04-20-2014, 03:49 AM
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If I was building my own full range tower speakers I would probably do the same as pictured above. Advantages would be keeping bass stereo and also closer to equal distance from the LP.

 

Stereo bass?  Oxymoron alert!

 

You think it is advantageous to have the subs in the same position as the mains?  What if that place is in a room mode that really messes with the bass? You can;'t move the mains because they have to be where they are for imaging. And if the bass is coming from the same cabinet, you can’t move the bass speakers either. Epic fail.  It's rare that the best place for subs is also the place where the mains have to go for imaging. Some advantage eh?

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kbarnes701 is online now  
post #600 of 651 Old 04-20-2014, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Those are some incredibly expensive speakers and I see no acoustic treatment in sight.

The take away from that could be that people who spend huge bucks on speakers are generally clueless about audio.
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