Do I really have to cross my cables at 90 degrees? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 01-01-2014, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Happy New Year, everyone! This is my first post.

You know the drill. We all have gone through the same experience, re-installing our equipment for one reason or another. Always, that was the easy part (specially with the help of a friend who plays football). Running the wires was the real challenge, trying to separate them as much as possible. We all shared this frustration. As a hobbyist, I knew the need for keeping wires away from each other. As an architect, I understood the science and have attempted to do do something about it. Attached PDF is something I wish to share with you, explaining what I have gone through in that attempt.

ElectromagnetisminWires.doc 2991k .doc file

Cheers!
Ponchit
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File Type: doc ElectromagnetisminWires.doc (2.92 MB, 76 views)
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post #2 of 41 Old 01-01-2014, 07:19 PM
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Oh wow, another audiophile solution to a non problem.
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post #3 of 41 Old 01-01-2014, 08:35 PM
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Hi Ponchit,

First, let me say that I found your paper to be clear and technically correct. Second, let me expand on A9X-308's response (If he doesn't mind).

One thing that your paper seems to overlook is that we almost never run a single wire. If we are running those 20 amps through a wire to a speaker, then there is almost always a companion wire running back from the speaker. The current in the second wire is equal, but of opposite polarity, to the first wire, and therefore they cancel each other's electro-magnetic field.


A second issue to be considered is what it takes for the magnetic field to actually generate a voltage in a wire. A "stationary" magnetic field will have a "stationary" effect on the wire, meaning if you measure the potential across two ends of a wire that happens to pass through a stationary magnetic field, you will measure no voltage. If, on the other-hand, you moved the magnetic field with respect to the wire, you will measure a change in potential during that motion. You need to have a change in flux to induce a voltage. This is why generators need to spin and transformers won't work with DC.

The point of that second issue is that only AC signals will couple, and only then if they carry enough current (the generated field needs to be strong enough). That limits the potential problem to our power-cables (at 50 or 60 hz) and our speaker cables, and both of those situations fall under the rules of my first point, where the currents in each direction cancel.


This is not to discourage you from your patent and your marketing of your idea. Just because many of us here would discount its usefulness doesn't mean you wouldn't find acceptance among the deep-pocket portion of the audio world. You have better theory behind you than, say, cable-risers do.
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post #4 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 09:14 AM
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Yes you do.

In some states you can be arrested if you don't.
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post #5 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Yes you do.

In some states you can be arrested if you don't.

What are you smoking, man?
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post #6 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Yes you do.

In some states you can be arrested if you don't.

What are you smoking, man?

Same-old, same-old! ;-)
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post #7 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Oh wow, another audiophile solution to a non problem.

You know I never even found an clear statement of an audible problem in the vendor's white paper.

I guess if there was a problem it would be audible nose created at the points where cables crossed.

I know that the physics described can cause visible problems because I've seen some interesting interactions between speaker wires and speaker magnets. But the environmental magnetic field and the currrent flowing through the cable were highly atypical.

But yes, I've seen a single 12 gauge speaker wire inside a speaker enclosure dance factions of an inch when crossing the external magnetic field of a large subwoofer being driven at a few Hz and operating near the clipping of 1 KW+/chan power amps (EP4000 at 4 ohm per channel bridged). the sub drivers were Ficar 18's.
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post #8 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 09:34 AM
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Hey, don't y'all know the professor is always right ?
🚽

Regards,
Charlie

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post #9 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

Hey, don't y'all know the professor is always right ?
🚽

Based on his recent posts, it appears he's trying to develop a sense of humor.

It will takes lots of practice for him. wink.gif

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #10 of 41 Old 01-02-2014, 07:35 PM
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The paper was a good read until I got to this part: "I applied and have been granted provisionary patent, my very first!"

You can't be granted a provisional patent. There is no such thing. A provisional application establishes the timing for the invention and nothing else. You have then 12 months to file the actual patent applications. If you do not, your provisional becomes null and void. Only the real application leads to a patent. So right now you are not granted anything. If you are a real believer in this, you need to follow with an attorney to file the real patent application and go through the expensive and painful process of getting the patent.

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post #11 of 41 Old 01-03-2014, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The paper was a good read until I got to this part: "I applied and have been granted provisionary patent, my very first!"

You can't be granted a provisional patent. There is no such thing. A provisional application establishes the timing for the invention and nothing else. You have then 12 months to file the actual patent applications. If you do not, your provisional becomes null and void. Only the real application leads to a patent. So right now you are not granted anything. If you are a real believer in this, you need to follow with an attorney to file the real patent application and go through the expensive and painful process of getting the patent.

As I read it, a provisional patent grants a right that used to be called "patent pending".

http://www.patentwizard.com/?gclid=CP-Y8sv34bsCFYQ7OgodWAIArQ
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post #12 of 41 Old 01-03-2014, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The paper was a good read until I got to this part: "I applied and have been granted provisionary patent, my very first!"

You can't be granted a provisional patent. There is no such thing. A provisional application establishes the timing for the invention and nothing else. You have then 12 months to file the actual patent applications. If you do not, your provisional becomes null and void. Only the real application leads to a patent. So right now you are not granted anything. If you are a real believer in this, you need to follow with an attorney to file the real patent application and go through the expensive and painful process of getting the patent.

As I read it, a provisional patent grants a right that used to be called "patent pending".

http://www.patentwizard.com/?gclid=CP-Y8sv34bsCFYQ7OgodWAIArQ

 

My wife is a UK patent attorney. If he has put details of the invention into the public domain prior to applying for a patent, then he cannot apply for a patent at all. Once an application has been filed, the inventor is protected until the patent has been granted.

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post #13 of 41 Old 01-03-2014, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Oh wow, another audiophile solution to a non problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1508886/do-you-consider-yourself-an-audiophile
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post #14 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree with you about the provisional patent, I.e., it is not a patent and mainly provides me a date to establish precedence. If someone else files for a patent AFTER the date of receipt of my provisional patent, I will get the patent even if both applications qualify. Recall that is how Alexander Bell got his patent...he was ahead of that other guy. The provisional patent allowed me to further test my concept and then apply for the final patent twelve months after. It was a great design experience because it allowed me to rethink my drawings due to practical considerations. Thanks for reading.
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post #15 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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From day one of our shared hobby, I have diligently followed what I was told by more senior hobbyist: cross your wires at ninety degrees. Like the inventor of the mouse (Engelbart), I only put together things that we already know as science, and not some exotic material or spiritual essence. Before, I have used wood blocks to elevate/separate my wires. Of course they were ugly! Let me share with you an anecdote when a client remarked, "But that is only aesthetics!" When I asked what car he drives, he said, "A Mercedes Benz." I told him that all he needed then because of his logic was a Chevy (this was before Detroit had the design epiphany and Apple was selling beige boxes). Obviously, his taste in cars did not extend to his taste in building design. I lost the argument because he was building a strip mall...very sensitive to price. I have won on occasion when my client is building something with more qualitative value, like a theater with comfortable seats and great acoustics, something we can emphatize with as hobbyists.

I came up with my design because I needed one for myself. I did not do market research to establish a massive need. Like the rest of you, I have this unexplainable need to share.
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post #16 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponchit View Post

From day one of our shared hobby, I have diligently followed what I was told by more senior hobbyist: cross your wires at ninety degrees.

And why do you think this is true? Because someone said so without offering proof or a scientific explanation?
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post #17 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Because that is what we all do: we listen first...then evaluate. That is what I did. Please see my article attached to my first post.
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post #18 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponchit View Post

Because that is what we all do: we listen first...then evaluate. That is what I did. Please see my article attached to my first post.

I received the same advice to cross wires at 90 degree when I was a pup. After many decades of ruining wires and cables sometimes by the thousands, I'd say that the only times it matters are also cases of bad engineering of the cables themselves.

One of the properties of a well-designed and made cables is that they are non-critical of placement and orientation because in the real world you can't guarantee those things, even if they are true after initial installation.
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post #19 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 11:05 AM
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My car runs better if I keep it in a garage. smile.gif
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post #20 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 11:44 AM
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Because that is what we all do: we listen first...then evaluate.

You might want to reevaluate post #3, it contains the information you seem to have missed.
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post #21 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Sam64,
This is my response to post #3 by Mark.
My paper was about the Laplace Force, which is the force experienced by moving charges in a wire which is exposed to an external magnetic field. I hope this link will help understand it:
http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/ugrad/276/Force%20on%20current.pdf
Whether 2 parallel wires with moving charges are running in the same or opposite direction, both will experienced the Laplace Force. This is due to another law, the Biot-Savart.

There are several ways of mitigating unwanted interaction between wires, as noted by another post: shielding, star quad, balanced connections, mu metal, rigid steel pipes. Common sense and science dictates that SEPARATION is one of them. I wanted my application for a provisional patent supported by science. Anecdotal verbiage is not preferred. That is all.
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post #22 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 02:44 PM
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Show us the measurements that show this is actually an audible problem.
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post #23 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 02:51 PM
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I hope this link will help understand it:

I understood it 30 years ago, you are displaying great difficulty in applying it though.
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post #24 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Show us the measurements that show this is actually an audible problem.

This is the place where many snake oil cures go awry. Yes there is such an effect but its effects are vanishing. Skin effect is a good example. If it were 10 times stronger, it might actually make a difference in some cases.
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post #25 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 06:11 PM
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I cross all my cables at 90 degrees. My fortune teller told me it will lead to great things in the future. I was skeptical of that, but my astrologer confirmed it's true.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #26 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 09:13 PM
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Lorentz force, not Laplace... The Laplace transform is used for something else.

The Lorentz force equation is known by any engineering undergrad who took an EM course, but probably very few of us use it after graduation unless in very specific jobs. Ditto the Biot-Savart Law, or even Maxwell's equations for that matter.

Good luck proving the audibility of the effect. Other coupling factors (besides Lorentz force) tend to cause issues running parallel wires, but chances are unless you are doing live sound with a 100' snake running power, speaker, and mic cables in the same bundle, you won't hear anything.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #27 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 09:50 PM
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I've had wires and cables zig - zagging all over the place and never had any noticeable problem. The problems come when they are coiled up while being used. Coiled up causes a bit of induction and choke effect. That is the case for any kind of analog wiring, be it power, audio, video, transmitting or receiving.

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post #28 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 10:46 PM
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Hi Ponchit,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponchit View Post

This is my response to post #3 by Mark.
My paper was about the Laplace Force, which is the force experienced by moving charges in a wire which is exposed to an external magnetic field. I hope this link will help understand it:
http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/ugrad/276/Force%20on%20current.pdf
I don't quite understand how the Lorentz force (often called the "Laplace force") is relevant. It describes the behavior of the physical force that is the result of a current passing through a magnetic field. It is the force that causes the armature of a motor to turn when current is passed through its windings.

The paper you linked to is nothing more than a lab assignment for a basic electricity course. It's informative, however, in that it demonstrates the Lorentz force as a mechanical force. I can't see how an audible effect can be attributed to the Lorentz force. Theoretically, an extreme case could cause your cables to vibrate, but even then it shouldn't cause an audible effect.
Quote:
Whether 2 parallel wires with moving charges are running in the same or opposite direction, both will experienced the Laplace Force. This is due to another law, the Biot-Savart.
Biot-Savart merely describes the strength of a magnetic field, based on the current and topology. It can clearly show that two equal currents, when flowing in opposite directions, produce a net-zero magnetic field. It's simply vector arithmetic. So again, you would not see any appreciable magnetic fields radiating from your audio cables.
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post #29 of 41 Old 01-04-2014, 11:44 PM
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Somebody went fishing.....and looks like he caught a few.....


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post #30 of 41 Old 01-05-2014, 02:59 AM
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It appears the high end audiophoolery business is still looking for scientific evidence for its beliefs.
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