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post #61 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

No. No, it doesn't. They're both ignorant, but Bobby and his friend have a sense of self-importance and arrogance because they think that all the great sums of money that have been poured into this room have been well-spent.

Status symbol, bragging rights, ego trip, feeling of superiority and not just being Joe six-pack average... welcome to marketing 101.

These are also the reasons why many people (but not all) buy $20,000 Rolexes or Ferraris or build extremely flash homes.

Every form of consumer goods will always have a segment that caters for that niche market. What's new?

.
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post #62 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

We create threads like this, circle the wagons around them, call them stupid, etc. And we do this with little qualification in the field itself. We repeat what we have read as being the science and they see through that. It is for that reason that you see so few of those audiophiles in this forum anymore.

Sadly quite true I feel. You can even witness the loss of the more knowledgeable people from here from the overall degradation of people's systems that get posted here.

Page one and page two from a few years ago....

www.avsforum.com/t/1217536/lets-see-pics-of-your-stereo-setup

www.avsforum.com/t/1217536/lets-see-pics-of-your-stereo-setup/30

... to many of these acoustic disasters you see today...

www.avsforum.com/t/1217536/lets-see-pics-of-your-stereo-setup/630

www.avsforum.com/t/1217536/lets-see-pics-of-your-stereo-setup/660

It's like your average AVS forum member now hasn't got a clue.
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post #63 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
 
 
There sure are hodgepodge of posts here. The trick is to filter out the useless. Recently, someone was nice enough to inform me of who is who in this place. I'm just sharing the goodies I gained. If that bothers you, then you can start your own forum and run it the way you want.

 

Yes, indeed, there is a hodgepodge.

 

What we have is like this:

 

Person A:  Look at Mr. X.  He is such an idiot for believing in audio snake oil!

 

Person B:  Mr. Y is more of an idiot. (With the implied conclusion that Mr. X is not an idiot.)

 

Person B is committing a fallacy.  It is a variation on tu quoque ("two wrongs make a right").  It is fallacious because even if it were true that Mr. Y is more of an idiot, that is completely irrelevant to the original assertion that Mr. X is an idiot.  Or, to say the same thing another way, Mr. Y being an idiot does not make Mr. X not an idiot.  So what Person B is saying is completely irrelevant to what Person A said.  It is just irrelevant BS brought up to obscure the issue at hand.

 

We also have something like this:

 

Person A:  Look at Mr. X.  He is such an idiot for believing in audio snake oil!

 

Person C:  You are jealous of Mr. X.  (With the implied conclusion that Mr. X is not an idiot.)

 

Person C is committing a fallacy.  Is is an argumentum ad hominem.  It is fallacious because even if it were true that Person A is jealous, that is completely irrelevant to the original assertion that Mr. X is an idiot.  Or, to say the same thing another way, Person A being jealous does not make Mr. X not an idiot.  So what Person C is saying is completely irrelevant to what Person A said.  It is just irrelevant BS brought up to obscure the issue at hand.

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post #64 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

Yes, indeed, there is a hodgepodge.

What we have is like this:

Person A:  Look at Mr. X.  He is such an idiot for believing in audio snake oil!



 



Person B:  Mr. Y is more of an idiot. (With the implied conclusion that Mr. X is not an idiot.)




Person B is committing a fallacy.  It is a variation on tu quoque ("two wrongs make a right").  It is fallacious because even if it were true that Mr. Y is more of an idiot, that is completely irrelevant to the original assertion that Mr. X is an idiot.  Or, to say the same thing another way, Mr. Y being an idiot does not make Mr. X not an idiot.  So what Person B is saying is completely irrelevant to what Person A said.  It is just irrelevant BS brought up to obscure the issue at hand.

We also have something like this:

Person A:  Look at Mr. X.  He is such an idiot for believing in audio snake oil!



 



Person C:  You are jealous of Mr. X.  (With the implied conclusion that Mr. X is not an idiot.)




Person C is committing a fallacy.  Is is an argumentum ad hominem.  It is fallacious because even if it were true that Person A is jealous, that is completely irrelevant to the original assertion that Mr. X is an idiot.  Or, to say the same thing another way, Person A being jealous does not make Mr. X not an idiot.  So what Person C is saying is completely irrelevant to what Person A said.  It is just irrelevant BS brought up to obscure the issue at hand.

How dare you make well-reasoned arguments! smile.gif

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post #65 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 05:55 PM
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People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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post #66 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

... It is beautiful work that is jaw droppingly amazing no matter how much (or little in this case) one knows about art.

Well,we agree on one point wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #67 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 09:28 PM
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As I said, you are suffering from wealth envy and now trying to use false beliefs or arguments to justify it.

That's an assumption, Amir. smile.gif You are assuming that the people who criticize this stuff do not have the disposable income to afford it, which is not universally true.
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post #68 of 84 Old 01-18-2014, 10:17 PM
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Yeah, I'd be all over the marble power strip if I could just afford the damn thing.
I *can* afford a green marker, though. If I criticize that as an audiophile tweak, does that still leave me with a nasty case of class envy?
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post #69 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

That's an assumption, Amir. smile.gif You are assuming that the people who criticize this stuff do not have the disposable income to afford it, which is not universally true.
No disagreement but no false assumption on my part smile.gif. I am not talking about everyone. The "you" was specific to the posters in this thread who are not criticising "this stuff" but "these people." No technical discussion has occurred in this thread -- only circling the wagons and making fun of our fellow music and audio lovers. I would love nothing but critiquing audio products and technologies. Indeed that is mostly what we do in this forum.

I mean look at the title of this thread: "Audio Woo at its worst! Please try to watch All the way Through! smile.gif." That sure reads like "check out this idiot" to me. And it sure sounded the same to others. Because the other people who make the group of "you" and love the same tactic of making fun of people showed up for the group hug:

""I was skeptical". Well, people who are paid to feign skepticism generally claim to be. Watch it all the way through? Man, that's cruel." Emphasis mine. That indicated that the pool water was warm so others joined in:

"And yet not one credible measurement to back this up or a double blind test. Foolz!" Emphasis mine. Still, it was easy to ignore the noise but then he says this:

"Bigger thing though is the continuing decline of logical thought and vast wasting of resources. This both economically and physically. I mean is it any wonder that the USA is having such a tuff time if the so called high-earners can't even realize the most basic fundamental concepts of how things work? I knew this stuff when I was not even in my double digit age from playing with the 1001 kits from radio shack."

Wasting resources? Really? That is what the critique of audio technology in this forum includes? And then the true emotion sets in with that "high-earners" not having basics of some concepts which our poster knows. So I post a response with some levity hoping that would be it. But no. Folks are emboldened by the attention and keep going:

"Have you noticed his house? I suppose there is some incentives there." Now the man's house is the topic. Still think we are talking about critiquing audio and not showing inferiority complex regarding other's wealth and decisions they choose to make with it? Let me convince you otherwise smile.gif. Because folks keep going at it with the references to people and money:

" But it is still laughable and totally moronic. The person is obviously an idiot. A rich idiot with some expensive gear, but an idiot none the less." Putting aside that he can't distinguish between someone making a wrong decision and being an idiot, clearly there is an emotional need to put folks down because they are "rich."

Still have doubts? How about this comment?

"Around here anybody with pink flamingos on their front lawn is laughed at, whether they are $10 plastic ones or $100k hand-blown glass! ;-) Two words: Nouveau Riche."

Arny imagines water lilies being plastic and proceeds without foundation to put them down as "Nouveau Riche." I didn't have the heart to tell him that these are an older couple and it is old money we are talking about here, not new.

Even normally level headed people like Wayne lose their sensibility in the midst of this and make comments like this:

"Good grief, Amir, you project too much. What was that you were saying about being more cordial and respectful? You should try following your own advice."

I don't know anyone reading the above would think the person to chastise is me. That I need to be more polite and "project less." Of all the people he could direct this comment to, he picked me? Everything else met his standards and my posts were the only problematic ones? Comments like this were OK in his book?

"What I meant was that it's Mr. salesman who's trying to tell us not to knock it. You know, because he's a salesman."

Again Wayne is one of the good guys. But trash the party enough and even the A College student will start to put his feet on the coffee table smile.gif.

How many of these people you think would be brave enough to print this thread and show it to their loved one? I bet you none. They would all be too embarrassed to do so. But somehow when they are not looking, they think it is OK to act otherwise.

So no, I don't think my assumptions are wrong smile.gif. Now, you could accuse me of being an idiot to waste the time to put together this post and that would be quite fair. biggrin.gif

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

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post #70 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 11:18 AM
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I agree that some of the responses and topics within this thread are noteworthy. I'm not referring to what others said. My simple point is that it's a fallacy to assume that the basis of criticism (perhaps I am speaking more in general?) is centered solely around one's envy of having major disposable income.

I have to admit that I at times have envy for people who drive supercars (Ferrari's and so forth). But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they outperform the car I drive soundly. But - it's not the same thing with audio gear. I'd never go onto a public forum and tell people they're morons for buying a supercar. So, yes, I do consider myself to be an exception to your statement that those who poke fun or ridicule some of this audio gear (and beliefs) are nothing other than envious of others financial status.
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post #71 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

That's an assumption, Amir. smile.gif You are assuming that the people who criticize this stuff do not have the disposable income to afford it, which is not universally true.
No disagreement but no false assumption on my part smile.gif. I am not talking about everyone. The "you" was specific to the posters in this thread who are not criticising "this stuff" but "these people." No technical discussion has occurred in this thread -- only circling the wagons and making fun of our fellow music and audio lovers. I would love nothing but critiquing audio products and technologies. Indeed that is mostly what we do in this forum.

I mean look at the title of this thread: "Audio Woo at its worst! Please try to watch All the way Through! smile.gif." That sure reads like "check out this idiot" to me. And it sure sounded the same to others. Because the other people who make the group of "you" and love the same tactic of making fun of people showed up for the group hug:

""I was skeptical". Well, people who are paid to feign skepticism generally claim to be. Watch it all the way through? Man, that's cruel." Emphasis mine. That indicated that the pool water was warm so others joined in:

"And yet not one credible measurement to back this up or a double blind test. Foolz!" Emphasis mine. Still, it was easy to ignore the noise but then he says this:

"Bigger thing though is the continuing decline of logical thought and vast wasting of resources. This both economically and physically. I mean is it any wonder that the USA is having such a tuff time if the so called high-earners can't even realize the most basic fundamental concepts of how things work? I knew this stuff when I was not even in my double digit age from playing with the 1001 kits from radio shack."

Wasting resources? Really? That is what the critique of audio technology in this forum includes? And then the true emotion sets in with that "high-earners" not having basics of some concepts which our poster knows. So I post a response with some levity hoping that would be it. But no. Folks are emboldened by the attention and keep going:

"Have you noticed his house? I suppose there is some incentives there." Now the man's house is the topic. Still think we are talking about critiquing audio and not showing inferiority complex regarding other's wealth and decisions they choose to make with it? Let me convince you otherwise smile.gif. Because folks keep going at it with the references to people and money:

" But it is still laughable and totally moronic. The person is obviously an idiot. A rich idiot with some expensive gear, but an idiot none the less." Putting aside that he can't distinguish between someone making a wrong decision and being an idiot, clearly there is an emotional need to put folks down because they are "rich."

Still have doubts? How about this comment?

"Around here anybody with pink flamingos on their front lawn is laughed at, whether they are $10 plastic ones or $100k hand-blown glass! ;-) Two words: Nouveau Riche."

Arny imagines water lilies being plastic and proceeds without foundation to put them down as "Nouveau Riche." I didn't have the heart to tell him that these are an older couple and it is old money we are talking about here, not new.

Even normally level headed people like Wayne lose their sensibility in the midst of this and make comments like this:

"Good grief, Amir, you project too much. What was that you were saying about being more cordial and respectful? You should try following your own advice."

I don't know anyone reading the above would think the person to chastise is me. That I need to be more polite and "project less." Of all the people he could direct this comment to, he picked me? Everything else met his standards and my posts were the only problematic ones? Comments like this were OK in his book?

"What I meant was that it's Mr. salesman who's trying to tell us not to knock it. You know, because he's a salesman."

Again Wayne is one of the good guys. But trash the party enough and even the A College student will start to put his feet on the coffee table smile.gif.

How many of these people you think would be brave enough to print this thread and show it to their loved one? I bet you none. They would all be too embarrassed to do so. But somehow when they are not looking, they think it is OK to act otherwise.

So no, I don't think my assumptions are wrong smile.gif. Now, you could accuse me of being an idiot to waste the time to put together this post and that would be quite fair. biggrin.gif

 

For anyone interested, the big fallacy amir is committing is most commonly called "cherry picking," though it would probably be better to call it a fallacy of suppressed evidence or incomplete evidence.  This fallacy occurs when the relevant evidence is omitted, and one instead focusses on other things and pretends to win the argument by looking just at the bits that one can easily make fun of.  In this case, what is being ignored (aside from just being completely obvious in the videos) has been stated above.  Such as:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post
 

If you finish, you will see all sorts of nonsense.  Like elevated wires, woo on the walls (along with things on the walls that probably help), ridiculous ideas about musical instruments in the room, nonsense about gear sounding better with the covers off, etc.

 

...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post
 
 
The second video was the first one I watched, and 3 minutes isn't long enough to get to the crazy. If you watch long enough, you get to the parts where he advocates using handmade cotton threads to isolate cables during runs, custom-made stands to keep cables off the floor, as well as having musical instruments(he uses a violin) and masks (he uses small African tribal artwork on the floor) and whatnot in the room to eliminate standing waves!

...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post
 
 

 

... If a poor person believes in magic outlet strips, he or she is just as much of an idiot as a rich person who believes in magic outlet strips. ...

 

 

But amirm ignores the facts and does not talk about the technical issues that have been mentioned, and pretends that no such things have been stated.  If he wished to discuss the technical issues, he could have done so, be he has thus far refused to engage in any discussion of them.  He instead prefers to defend such practices by attacking those who ridicule the nonsense, as if that would somehow justify the nonsense that is being put forth in the videos to which the opening post provided a link.

 

So, does amirm believe that the things mentioned in the videos are accurate?  For example, does he believe that removing the covers from audio gear improves the sound?  Or that musical instruments in a room are good treatments for room acoustics?  Or that the sound will be improved if the cables are isolated with handmade cotton threads?  Or that elevating the wires off of the floor will improve the sound?  If so, he should tell us why he believes such things, if, as he claims, he is really interested in the technical issues.  And if he does not believe the nonsense, it is strange that he is attacking us for ridiculing ideas that even he regards as false.  But the fact that he has refused to discuss the issues that have been brought up is proof enough that he has had no real interest in discussing such matters, contrary to his protestations that that is what interests him.

 

No one has stopped him from discussing the technical side of things, but he has not done so.  The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that he does not wish to do so.

 

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post #72 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

I agree that some of the responses and topics within this thread are noteworthy. I'm not referring to what others said. My simple point is that it's a fallacy to assume that the basis of criticism (perhaps I am speaking more in general?) is centered solely around one's envy of having major disposable income.

I have to admit that I at times have envy for people who drive supercars (Ferrari's and so forth). But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they outperform the car I drive soundly. But - it's not the same thing with audio gear. I'd never go onto a public forum and tell people they're morons for buying a supercar. So, yes, I do consider myself to be an exception to your statement that those who poke fun or ridicule some of this audio gear (and beliefs) are nothing other than envious of others financial status.

 

The idea that it is envy is simply a red herring:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Even if the people in the two vids had the exact same speakers and gear I know which room I would rather be listening to music in.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=30onoWXjYSA

vs

www.youtube.com/watch?v=D54N9YdlseU

You're not going to get anyone here to suggest that room treatments aren't important. But pretty much everything in Bobby's Super System video is presented as a treatment or enhancement to the listening experience in that room, even though some of it is not.

Some of is straight up snake oil!

 

Yes, exactly.  No one in this thread has made fun of the speaker placement in the video of the opening post or spending >$60k on speakers.  People have made fun of the snake oil nonsense in it, and only the snake oil nonsense in it.  That is because the snake oil nonsense is what is laughably idiotic.  Of course, believers in such nonsense, and sellers of snake oil, are likely to object to such ridicule.

 

As you say about the cars you mention, there is a real performance difference.  You being envious of the cars makes no difference to that fact.  But that contrasts very much with nonsense about outlet strips improving the sound, and handmade cotton to isolate the wires to improve the sound, and the idea that removing the covers from audio equipment improves the sound, and etc.  Those things don't make any difference to the sound, regardless of whether anyone is envious or not.  Envy or a lack therefore is completely irrelevant to the performance of either cars or audio equipment.  The simple fact is that amirm does not wish to discuss the real issues, or he would do so instead of bringing up irrelevant matters.

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post #73 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No disagreement but no false assumption on my part smile.gif. I am not talking about everyone. The "you" was specific to the posters in this thread who are not criticising "this stuff" but "these people." No technical discussion has occurred in this thread -- only circling the wagons and making fun of our fellow music and audio lovers. I would love nothing but critiquing audio products and technologies. Indeed that is mostly what we do in this forum.

I mean look at the title of this thread: "Audio Woo at its worst! Please try to watch All the way Through! smile.gif." That sure reads like "check out this idiot" to me. And it sure sounded the same to others. Because the other people who make the group of "you" and love the same tactic of making fun of people showed up for the group hug:

""I was skeptical". Well, people who are paid to feign skepticism generally claim to be. Watch it all the way through? Man, that's cruel." Emphasis mine. That indicated that the pool water was warm so others joined in:

"And yet not one credible measurement to back this up or a double blind test. Foolz!" Emphasis mine. Still, it was easy to ignore the noise but then he says this:

"Bigger thing though is the continuing decline of logical thought and vast wasting of resources. This both economically and physically. I mean is it any wonder that the USA is having such a tuff time if the so called high-earners can't even realize the most basic fundamental concepts of how things work? I knew this stuff when I was not even in my double digit age from playing with the 1001 kits from radio shack."

Wasting resources? Really? That is what the critique of audio technology in this forum includes? And then the true emotion sets in with that "high-earners" not having basics of some concepts which our poster knows. So I post a response with some levity hoping that would be it. But no. Folks are emboldened by the attention and keep going:

"Have you noticed his house? I suppose there is some incentives there." Now the man's house is the topic. Still think we are talking about critiquing audio and not showing inferiority complex regarding other's wealth and decisions they choose to make with it? Let me convince you otherwise smile.gif. Because folks keep going at it with the references to people and money:

" But it is still laughable and totally moronic. The person is obviously an idiot. A rich idiot with some expensive gear, but an idiot none the less." Putting aside that he can't distinguish between someone making a wrong decision and being an idiot, clearly there is an emotional need to put folks down because they are "rich."

Still have doubts? How about this comment?

"Around here anybody with pink flamingos on their front lawn is laughed at, whether they are $10 plastic ones or $100k hand-blown glass! ;-) Two words: Nouveau Riche."

Arny imagines water lilies being plastic and proceeds without foundation to put them down as "Nouveau Riche." I didn't have the heart to tell him that these are an older couple and it is old money we are talking about here, not new.

Even normally level headed people like Wayne lose their sensibility in the midst of this and make comments like this:

"Good grief, Amir, you project too much. What was that you were saying about being more cordial and respectful? You should try following your own advice."

I don't know anyone reading the above would think the person to chastise is me. That I need to be more polite and "project less." Of all the people he could direct this comment to, he picked me? Everything else met his standards and my posts were the only problematic ones? Comments like this were OK in his book?

"What I meant was that it's Mr. salesman who's trying to tell us not to knock it. You know, because he's a salesman."

Again Wayne is one of the good guys. But trash the party enough and even the A College student will start to put his feet on the coffee table smile.gif.

How many of these people you think would be brave enough to print this thread and show it to their loved one? I bet you none. They would all be too embarrassed to do so. But somehow when they are not looking, they think it is OK to act otherwise.

So no, I don't think my assumptions are wrong smile.gif. Now, you could accuse me of being an idiot to waste the time to put together this post and that would be quite fair. biggrin.gif
A lot of people interact on forums for entertainment purpose. You can't fault them for pursuing what's allowed.
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post #74 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 12:26 PM
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A lot of people interact on forums for entertainment purpose. You can't fault them for pursuing what's allowed.
What's allowed? Did you bother to read the terms of the service for this forum before joining? Here is the relevant part: http://www.avsforum.com/a/terms-of-service

"You agree not to use this forum to accuse anyone; any company or any product of being "stupid" or a "fraud" or to use a term like "snake oil" to describe a particular product, as such terms may be viewed as defamatory and abusive."

You know, as in stuff like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

Person A:  Look at Mr. X.  He is such an idiot for believing in audio snake oil!

Or this:
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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

That is missing the bigger point.  The bigger point is about pointless waste caused by irrationality and stupidity, not about using things that actually help one.

Or this post of yours:
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post

What I meant was that it's Mr. salesman who's trying to tell us not to knock it. You know, because he's a salesman.

You want to entertain yourself at the expense of others, pick a place like youtube I suggested earlier than this forum which has clear rules against it.

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post #75 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 12:41 PM
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I agree that some of the responses and topics within this thread are noteworthy. I'm not referring to what others said. My simple point is that it's a fallacy to assume that the basis of criticism (perhaps I am speaking more in general?) is centered solely around one's envy of having major disposable income.
I apologize for not being more clear: I completely agree with your position. As you state, I am dealing a handful of individuals who roam these forums to stomp on people, products they buy or products from others. In every case I find them demonstrate wealth envy as I showed in my post.

Let me make the point even stronger. I fall in the general class you mention. After 30+ years of being in computer technology, I retired from Microsoft and am thankful to have a few dollars in my pocket to be able to afford luxury products smile.gif. But would not in a million years buy or recommend to anyone to buy marble power strips or fancy power cables for $12,000, $1,200 or even $120. Spend that money on music and you will be much happier for it smile.gif. I am an avid wildlife photographer. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on my camera gear. When the value and performance is there, I am not one to economize.

That said, I do appreciate and strive for excellence in engineering. This notion practiced by the few people here that the cheapest crappiest products are "good enough" just doesn't sit well with me. It encourages companies to keep building cheaper and crappier products. I am not a fan of that. I appreciate excellent design. And know enough about electronics to know when that is practiced, or the customer taken advantage of and not delivered. So set the quality line too low and you will see me jump in smile.gif. No amount of it being "good enough" for that person passes muster with me. You better know the technology and appropriately make your case. Repeating stuff you read on some forum with no understanding below that may apply.
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I have to admit that I at times have envy for people who drive supercars (Ferrari's and so forth). But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they outperform the car I drive soundly. But - it's not the same thing with audio gear. I'd never go onto a public forum and tell people they're morons for buying a supercar. So, yes, I do consider myself to be an exception to your statement that those who poke fun or ridicule some of this audio gear (and beliefs) are nothing other than envious of others financial status.
Kudos to you smile.gif. But there is another important distinction. As lay people we can still evaluate the performance of a super car and see the value when it is there. But as lay people, we are very ill prepared to do the same at times in audio. Classic example is people who think "digital is digital" and that two such products by definition must perform the same. Well, they do not and the explanation of that requires more knowledge that is not even taught to engineers in school. I can give you countless examples of this chanted by folks as setting a low bar for performance where their very assumption is wrong as a matter of science and engineering.

It is quite a unique situation. If we had doctors discussing the efficacy of some medicine in some forum, you wouldn't have average Joe chime to tell them what works and what doesn't. We all agree that they would not be qualified to do so. But somehow with audio folks think what they read on forums is right because it appeals to their lay sensibility and assumptions. Many things in audio work that way. But many do not. An MP3 can have better than 90% of its data thrown away yet the remaining amount sound remarkably close to the CD. That doesn't fit any of our intuition but it is a reality we all accept. Reverse the tables though and all of a sudden, everything becomes impossible to hear, etc.

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post #76 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 03:39 PM
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What's allowed? Did you bother to read the terms of the service for this forum before joining? Here is the relevant part: http://www.avsforum.com/a/terms-of-service
I sure did. Didn't you see the portion that says, "The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes"?
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post #77 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 04:10 PM
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For those readers who just can't get enough of AVShowrooms videos with Peter Breuninger, there is a dedicated sticky thread for announcements about them at amirm's What's Best Forum. biggrin.gif
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post #78 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I don't know anyone reading the above would think the person to chastise is me. That I need to be more polite and "project less." Of all the people he could direct this comment to, he picked me? Everything else met his standards and my posts were the only problematic ones?

Must be that AVS double standard again.
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post #79 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 04:57 PM
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You're still doing it, Amir. And please don't misquote or attribute to me things I did not say.
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post #80 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What's allowed? Did you bother to read the terms of the service for this forum before joining? Here is the relevant part: http://www.avsforum.com/a/terms-of-service
I sure did. Didn't you see the portion that says, "The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes"?

As you have noticed, it is yet another example of the problem of the fallacy of cherry picking, which was mentioned above.  Otherwise, he would have also noticed:

 

If you see a problematic post, use the "Report Post" system as designed to alert staff members. Never quote or respond to problematic posts yourself as you then become part of the problem.

 

So, if he is right about the other posts, he is terribly wrong in his reaction.  So we know that this is yet more BS from him.  If the posts to which he has replied are a violation of the rules, then he has violated the rules by quoting and responding to them.  If he knew the rules as much as he seems to want people to believe, he would know this.

 

Now, I may be mistaken about what I have done, and certainly the owner of this site may inform me of it if I am, but I believe I have kept to the spirit of the law, as it were, in this.  I have not knowingly stated anything that is false, or inaccurate, in any way whatsoever.  Some ideas are silly, and that is just a matter of fact.  If someone told you that putting peanut butter on top of your speakers would help with the soundstage, and enhance percussive sounds, what would be the most appropriate reaction to that?  Should we speak the truth, or should we keep silent?  Should we pretend that it is a respectable opinion, and treat it as such, or should it be treated with the derision that such an idea would deserve?  Indeed, there is a fallacy known as "false balance" in which it is pretended that all sides of any dispute must be equally reasonable.  Of course, it is nonsense to suppose that all opinions are equal.  The idea that I was born of a woman is not on an equal footing with the idea that I sprang fully grown from Zeus' head.  And so it would be foolish to pretend that all ideas are equal.  Any interest in the truth must recognize such basic facts.

 

If I were to pretend that all opinions are equal, I would be in violation of the rule in which one is prohibited from posting material that is knowingly false, and inaccurate.

 

I might also add, that accusing a person, who is not, as far as I know, a member of this site, of being stupid, is not accusing any company or product of being stupid. Nor is there an accusation of fraud; I have not accused the stupid people of really being clever frauds instead of being stupid, though I may be mistaken on this point and perhaps they are not really stupid and are frauds instead, but that is not what I have asserted thus far.

 

If the above is not in compliance of the rules, and that all ideas are here to be treated equally, then I suggest that all of you pony up some big money for my special peanut butter for your speakers.  It is really something that your friends have not yet discovered, and surely you do not want to be the last one to have the rich soundstage and incredible accuracy of percussive sounds that only my peanut butter can provide.  After all, without me telling you about it, how will you even know if you need crunchy or creamy?  And, of course, different brands have different ingredients, and then there is also the issue of different kinds of peanuts, and different processing.  You will never get my great version without me, so you must pay the price I require for it.  It is $10 million per jar, and of course, those who try to ridicule this, must just be jealous of those who can afford to have the incredible sound that this would provide.


God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #81 of 84 Old 01-19-2014, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

For those readers who just can't get enough of AVShowrooms videos with Peter Breuninger, there is a dedicated sticky thread for announcements about them at amirm's What's Best Forum. biggrin.gif
Ah, that explains why he posts all these things!

So Mr. salesman does have a forum to run. Pardon me, I didn't know that. But why is this man doing so much minding here?
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post #82 of 84 Old 01-20-2014, 05:52 AM
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First world problems...



they are a b!tch.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #83 of 84 Old 06-06-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

Two words -- audio jewelry..

Yes, I like it too.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #84 of 84 Old 06-07-2014, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post


So Mr. salesman does have a forum to run. Pardon me, I didn't know that. But why is this man doing so much minding here?

I suspect that traffic levels have something to do with it.
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