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post #151 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 09:18 AM
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Do your dedicated circuits all feed a single receptacle (AKA not duplex)? That is the issue being discussed.

In my home, the refrigerator is a dedicated circuit feeding a duplex outlet.

A single circuit feeds my dishwasher and garbage disposal, but I do not have any outlets (both hard wired).

Microwave is installed on a duplex outlet.

Swimming pool is a dedicated line with a duplex outlet.

Furnace is a dedicated line with no outlet (hard wired).
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post #152 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I should add that that the dedicated circuits came in very handy when I added a generator. We wanted to keep things like fridge and microwave working and with dedicated circuit, it was easy to route them through a transfer switch.


I am glad that I have no need for a standby generator. I hardly ever loose electricity for an extended time period.
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post #153 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post


Does anyone have such a circuit in their homes?

Has anyone seen such a circuit in a home setting, and what did it power?

Yes, there are a few dedicated circuit, single outlet receptacles in my place.

  • Window AC unit
  • Stove/oven
  • Clothes dryer

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #154 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Yes, there are a few dedicated circuit, single outlet receptacles in my place.

  • Window AC unit
  • Stove/oven
  • Clothes dryer
220 circuits?
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post #155 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

One interesting thing about this thread. The dispute under discussion is about the scenario a dedicated line that supplies a single receptacle (not a duplex). The question is what is the US NEC code on that one scenario. The NEC uses very complicated language to talk about multiple receptacles in the code restrictions. Single receptacles (not duplex) are excluded from a lot of restrictions.

Does anyone have such a circuit in their homes?

Has anyone seen such a circuit in a home setting, and what did it power?

Let's see:

1) 15a 120v Furnas (California for some reason uses cords on gas FAU)
2) 20a 120v Garage Air Compressor
3) 15a 120v Garage Window Air Conditioner
3) 15a 120v Garage wall fan (switched outlet)
4) 15a 120v Garage De-Humidifier (shares breaker with window AC)
5) Garage 240/120v twist lock (for solder pot and table saw)
5) Theater room UPS (30a twist lock)
6) 20a 120v Theater attic HVAC electric re-heater
7) 20a 120v twist lock Family room AV equipment power strip

I should note that all my AV gear including the entire HT system run on a 60-0-60volt balanced system. I put this in myself using a 480v to 240v 10kva building transformer. I just run it 240v in to 120v center tapped out. The centertap is grounded which is how balanced power works. This fed to a balanced sub panel in the theater as well as dedicated IG outlets around the house. Yes, it is against code to have a balanced power system in a non-commercial operation. Come lock me up tongue.gif

The danger to unfamiliar electricians is the neutral is 60 volts above ground at full breaker current capacity. You have to use double pole breakers as well. See NEC article 647.1 for more info. www.equitech.com makes commercial versions of this system.

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post #156 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

One interesting thing about this thread. The dispute under discussion is about the scenario a dedicated line that supplies a single receptacle (not a duplex). The question is what is the US NEC code on that one scenario. The NEC uses very complicated language to talk about multiple receptacles in the code restrictions. Single receptacles (not duplex) are excluded from a lot of restrictions.
Just a note of caution for those reading this who are not in the US, that local statutes may be very different from the NEC. I know it is in Australia and many other places where compliance with local code is mandatory.
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Does anyone have such a circuit in their homes?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Has anyone seen such a circuit in a home setting, and what did it power?
Currently range and HWS, but next year when I rebuild the kitchen, the stove and oven will get their own dedicated circuit and breaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Kind of a waste of bandwidth talking about a single receptacle dedicated circuit scenario that no one uses nor do they really care about when you come right down to it!tongue.gif
In the DIY section, I do recall some posters talking about having dedicated single outlet sub mains for individual sub amps, especially when using monster amps such as the LG FP14000 or clones.
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post #157 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post


Does anyone have such a circuit in their homes?

Has anyone seen such a circuit in a home setting, and what did it power?

Yes, there are a few dedicated circuit, single outlet receptacles in my place.

  • Window AC unit
  • Stove/oven
  • Clothes dryer


I should have said 120 VAC 15 or 20 amp circuits like those being discussed here.

I also have a single 240 VAC circuits for each of the the cook top, wall oven, and the cloths dryer. No outlets for the kitchen equipment, and one receptacle for the cloths dryer. Those are not 15 or 20 amp circuits.
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post #158 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

One interesting thing about this thread. The dispute under discussion is about the scenario a dedicated line that supplies a single receptacle (not a duplex). The question is what is the US NEC code on that one scenario. The NEC uses very complicated language to talk about multiple receptacles in the code restrictions. Single receptacles (not duplex) are excluded from a lot of restrictions.

Does anyone have such a circuit in their homes?

Has anyone seen such a circuit in a home setting, and what did it power?

Let's see:

1) 15a 120v Furnas (California for some reason uses cords on gas FAU)
2) 20a 120v Garage Air Compressor
3) 15a 120v Garage Window Air Conditioner
3) 15a 120v Garage wall fan (switched outlet)
4) 15a 120v Garage De-Humidifier (shares breaker with window AC)
5) Garage 240/120v twist lock (for solder pot and table saw)
5) Theater room UPS (30a twist lock)
6) 20a 120v Theater attic HVAC electric re-heater
7) 20a 120v twist lock Family room AV equipment power strip

I should note that all my AV gear including the entire HT system run on a 60-0-60volt balanced system. I put this in myself using a 480v to 240v 10kva building transformer. I just run it 240v in to 120v center tapped out. The centertap is grounded which is how balanced power works. This fed to a balanced sub panel in the theater as well as dedicated IG outlets around the house. Yes, it is against code to have a balanced power system in a non-commercial operation. Come lock me up tongue.gif

The danger to unfamiliar electricians is the neutral is 60 volts above ground at full breaker current capacity. You have to use double pole breakers as well. See NEC article 647.1 for more info. www.equitech.com makes commercial versions of this system.



You should run some leakage tests on your HT equipment with the use of that 60 VAC neutral. You might be surprised at the results!
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post #159 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

One interesting thing about this thread. The dispute under discussion is about the scenario a dedicated line that supplies a single receptacle (not a duplex). The question is what is the US NEC code on that one scenario. The NEC uses very complicated language to talk about multiple receptacles in the code restrictions. Single receptacles (not duplex) are excluded from a lot of restrictions.
Just a note of caution for those reading this who are not in the US, that local statutes may be very different from the NEC. I know it is in Australia and many other places where compliance with local code is mandatory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Does anyone have such a circuit in their homes?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Has anyone seen such a circuit in a home setting, and what did it power?
Currently range and HWS, but next year when I rebuild the kitchen, the stove and oven will get their own dedicated circuit and breaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Kind of a waste of bandwidth talking about a single receptacle dedicated circuit scenario that no one uses nor do they really care about when you come right down to it!tongue.gif
In the DIY section, I do recall some posters talking about having dedicated single outlet sub mains for individual sub amps, especially when using monster amps such as the LG FP14000 or clones.


Just to repeat, no one has suggested installing a new dedicated 15 amp 120 VAC circuit with a single dedicated 20 amp receptacle (non duplex). We were talking about an existing dedicated 15 amp circuit connected to dedicated single 15 120 VAC receptacle (not duplex). Is it legal to change that out to a 20 amp single receptacle (not duplex) in an existing circuit?

As I recall, Australia is all 220 VAC.

Yes, the Lab clones are high current devices. Some people install a dedicated 240 VAC circuit to run them. Not sure what they do for the 120 VAC version.
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post #160 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You should run some leakage tests on your HT equipment with the use of that 60 VAC neutral. You might be surprised at the results!

I fully understand leakage the issue. Most of my analog audio gear is DIY so I know that's OK. Switch mode power supplies are rated for both sides above ground as they are world wide approved in most cases. My power controllers have double pole solid state relays so when the HT is off, both sides of the line are disconnected.

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post #161 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Just to repeat, no one has suggested installing a new dedicated 15 amp 120 VAC circuit with a single dedicated 20 amp receptacle (non duplex). We were talking about an existing dedicated 15 amp circuit connected to dedicated single 15 120 VAC receptacle (not duplex).
I've read the discussion on this point, and code violations excepted*, I see no safety issue with connecting a single 20 outlet on a 15A feed, assuming the correct breaker is fitted for the conductor. The worst that would happen is a nuisance trip if a 20A rated device were connected and was drawing full power.

* Not telling anyone to violate any local code, just having a discussion.
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Is it legal to change that out to a 20 amp single receptacle (not duplex) in an existing circuit?
In the US? No idea and I'm not interested in reading the NEC to find out. Here it may be possible, but I'd have to look up AS3000 to confirm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

As I recall, Australia is all 220 VAC.
Traditionally it's 240V, but a couple of years ago a paper change was made to bring us in line with Europe and now officially we're 230V. However, nothing in the network changed to bring this about, rather the 240V +/-5% became 230V +10/-2%. My system voltage display is at 242V (it was calibrated in the lab at work) and has never moved more than a volt or so. But I haven't used all the sub amps yet, and I just got nearly 10kW more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Yes, the Lab clones are high current devices. Some people install a dedicated 240 VAC circuit to run them. Not sure what they do for the 120 VAC version.
In threads, unless I see 2 phase 240V mentioned, I assume it's single phase. As it doesn't affect me I haven't paid too close attention.
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post #162 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You should run some leakage tests on your HT equipment with the use of that 60 VAC neutral. You might be surprised at the results!

I fully understand leakage the issue. Most of my analog audio gear is DIY so I know that's OK. Switch mode power supplies are rated for both sides above ground as they are world wide approved in most cases. My power controllers have double pole solid state relays so when the HT is off, both sides of the line are disconnected.



Just wondering. When your equipment is being used, what type of AC voltage ground referenced (the third ground wire is ground I assume?) do you get between connectors like the rf connector or RCA audio connector on your TV and ground? Same thing with the rca connectors on your avr. I am talking about the exposed outside metal. Same thing with your subwoofer amplifier.
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post #163 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I spoke earlier about keeping your emotions in check when speaking in public or on a forum like this. Arny responded with:
If what you are displaying is "empathy," there should be a campaign to change the meaning of the word in every dictionary.
Pardon me but you are not a psychiatrist so please stop trying to act like one.
Quote:
Indeed many members in this subforum are here to read and learn. You have said nothing technical whatsoever about the topic of the thread. Your interest is completely in a personal fight. While your antics don’t work on me, I also don’t want to waste time having a non-technical argument with you in post after post. So while I may comment on your posts in the future (as a way to make a point to the larger audience, I am going to ignore them otherwise. I hope you understand smile.gif.
You are not the administrator of this place so please stop trying to act like one.

Internet is full of junk data. The important thing is to filter them out. There are two topic related things I've been through over the years. One, having been a salesman myself, I used to do what you do so it's a walk in the park for me to see right through your posts. You might as well not waste your time trying the tactics on me. Two, when it comes to audio products, I've been duped by bogus claims posted all over the internet, just like the one posted by the guy you are supporting a few pages ago. As a result, I've wasted a lot of money in search of sound quality. Whenever I can help, I will set up the filter so that the junk info will be easier to be separated and less people will waste their money on bogus products. If that bothers you, then you can start your own forum and go on your merry way...

Oh, wait, you do have your own forum. Then why are you spending so much time minding this forum? rolleyes.gif
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post #164 of 172 Old 02-15-2014, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Just wondering. When your equipment is being used, what type of AC voltage ground referenced (the third ground wire is ground I assume?) do you get between connectors like the rf connector or RCA audio connector on your TV and ground? Same thing with the rca connectors on your avr. I am talking about the exposed outside metal. Same thing with your subwoofer amplifier.

I'll check that for you. But keep in mind this is not an un-grounded system. The transformer secondary center tap is grounded. So a fault from either side of the line to ground will trip the breaker. Now you are supposed to use GFIC's but nobody does because they are too sensitive and trip from the leakage from RFI/EMI filters.

The only provision for an un-grounded system in the NEC AFAIK is:

1) An old un-grounded industrial delta service. Here a light bulb was connected between each phase and ground. The idea was one ground fault from a motor would not shut the whole plant down. This is obsolete but still found across the USA.

2) An operating room or similar life support system. Here a minor ground fault will trigger an alarm but will not kill the power.

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post #165 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You want to talk silly, you get a silly response.

The answer is forever if nothing is plugged into the outlet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The 15 amp breaker protects the circuit from a fire risk. You could install a 5 gazillion gigawatt outlet in a 15 amp circuit with no risk of fire!

Start silly... get silly.

Any thoughts about the question:
"For how long before heat deteriorates insulation, wire, contacts, outlets and/or a complete breaker failure?"

Yes.

(1) Low boundary condition: No load but the gazillion watt outlet, no current flows, no heating of anything, indefinite life.

(2) High boundary condition: Gazilliion watt load. The breaker trips immediately, same results as (1).

(3) Low-middle range condition: 15 amp load - everything operates within its capabilities, no harm done.

(4) High-middle range condition: Load >> 15 amp, << Gazillion amps. Breaker trips and then we have the same results as (1).

Any questions? ;-)
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post #166 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 08:19 AM
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Just to be fair to the argument on both sides, the circuit breaker makes a very lousy current limiter. It is mechanical and hence can have slow response time. The key here is that its slow response time has been incorporated into the rating of the wire that feeds from it. Here is a generic graph showing that:

711ecmCBfig2.jpg

See how the danger line for the wire is well clear of the graph. If you look at the 14 amp romex for example, that is one beefy cable. So while the wire will certainly warm up some if there is a catastrophic short, it can live through that until the breaker opens per vertical axis of the above graph. Imagine how much power it takes to heat up tens or hundred+ feet of cable to the point of the insulation igniting.

There is a secondary problem in that there can be arcing across its contacts when it attempts to open. The higher the current that it is trying to interrupt, the worse this is. The arcing can weld the contacts shut and not let it interrupt the circuit. Fortunately breakers are design to withstand many multiples of their actual rating using various methods like putting special gas inside it. But whatever that rating is, it is not gazillion amps. biggrin.gif

A quick story on this. A "friend" ( biggrin.gif ), cut through a live romex wire with electrician pliers while holding a part of it. Massive spark was the result and it completely pulverized the cutting jaws of the plier. Clearly good bit of juice went through the wire. But the wire was as cool to touch as it was before the short. So the system works. It is overbuilt for the purpose to keep folks out of trouble, including my friend here. biggrin.gif

BTW, it is for this reason that you never, ever, want to rely on the circuit breaker to protect your gear. The breaker is there for one and only one thing: to protect the wire. It is too slow to protect any sensitive equipment downstream. They need to have their appropriate fuses or they can catch on fire, etc. and the breaker not doing a thing.

So concluding, the reaction time of the breaker is not instant. But it is fast enough to protect the wire.

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post #167 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I should have said 120 VAC 15 or 20 amp circuits like those being discussed here.

I also have a single 240 VAC circuits for each of the the cook top, wall oven, and the cloths dryer. No outlets for the kitchen equipment, and one receptacle for the cloths dryer. Those are not 15 or 20 amp circuits.

The window AC unit.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #168 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
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There's your high distortion again. If you were an amplifier, I would've tossed you into dumpster in a heartbeat. rolleyes.gif
I'm not going to honor your distortions with answer.
I spoke earlier about keeping your emotions in check when speaking in public or on a forum like this. Arny responded with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


There's a school of thought that says that putting aside one's emotions wreaks havoc with empathy.

If what you are displaying is "empathy," there should be a campaign to change the meaning of the word in every dictionary.

Gratuitous attempt to distract the discussion from its logical point - I never said that I was attempting to show empathy.

Furthermore an assertion was made that I was not showing empathy, but no logical foundation was provided - it was just another baseless assertion.
Quote:
As I said, I am not moved by emotion in these discussions.

Not responsive - just a repetition of a previous unsupported assertion.
Quote:
How often do you see a professional seminar where someone who disagrees with the speaker displays such conduct? Here is a good example.

Years ago I was at an Audio Engineering Society conference. Someone from FHG (same folks who brought us MP3) was giving a talk about a *lossy* audio compression algorithm that went up to 96 Khz sampling rate. When he was done, a smart person in the audience asked: "doesn't psychoacoustics say that we can’t hear much above 20 Khz? If so, how did you test your algorithm if you can’t hear what is going on above that?” The presenter was speechless. What the person asked is a perfect catch-22. You can’t simultaneously believe that you can’t hear above 44 Khz sampling’s highest frequency and then go on and talk about how you have built a system to preserve what is there using a model of the ear.

Anyway, clearly the person who asked the question knew more than the presenter. But he didn’t lash out at him with silly insults like your distortion example. I suspect in real world you would never do that. Please think about why, when not using your name, you feel comfortable to act this way.

Interesting anecdote but again completely non-responsive.

The technique of answering questions that were not asked and not answering questions that were asked is commonly used by ethically corrupt politicians and others with something to hide.
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post #169 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Gratuitous attempt to distract the discussion from its logical point - I never said that I was attempting to show empathy.

Furthermore an assertion was made that I was not showing empathy, but no logical foundation was provided - it was just another baseless assertion.
Not responsive - just a repetition of a previous unsupported assertion.
Interesting anecdote but again completely non-responsive.

The technique of answering questions that were not asked and not answering questions that were asked is commonly used by ethically corrupt politicians and others with something to hide.
Oh Arny. You never stop being yourself. biggrin.gif

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post #170 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Gratuitous attempt to distract the discussion from its logical point - I never said that I was attempting to show empathy.

Furthermore an assertion was made that I was not showing empathy, but no logical foundation was provided - it was just another baseless assertion.
Not responsive - just a repetition of a previous unsupported assertion.
Interesting anecdote but again completely non-responsive.

The technique of answering questions that were not asked and not answering questions that were asked is commonly used by ethically corrupt politicians and others with something to hide.
Oh Arny. You never stop being yourself. biggrin.gif

Yes Amir I'm quite the dreamer - trying to turn politicians into honest men! ;-)

BTW my Great Uncle Otto G. Krueger sat in the US House of Representatives, so one might think that politics runs in the family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Krueger

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=K000332
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post #171 of 172 Old 02-16-2014, 08:52 PM
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BTW my Great Uncle Otto G. Krueger sat in the US House of Representatives, so one might think that politics runs in the family.
It must, seeing how you said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The technique of answering questions that were not asked and not answering questions that were asked is commonly used by ethically corrupt politicians and others with something to hide.
Didn't recall anyone remotely asking you about politics Arny. wink.gif

As I said, you never stop being yourself. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
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post #172 of 172 Old 02-17-2014, 01:45 AM
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Someone sent me a bunch of links via private message the other day. That person wrote "tip of an iceberg" and sure enough, what's contained in those links were mind boggling. The track record shows that Mr. Salesman has been caught lying many times.
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