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post #271 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 04:58 PM
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I hope @Audionut11 and @jim19611961 don't mind but I've forked their discussion from the rew thread to here as it seems this thread is a more appropriate home for the subject.

 

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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

With the termination set correctly, when the plane is to the right, there is still ambience on the left. The soundstage doesn't get contracted, or probably more accurately, pulled to the right. The sense of space remains the same, and in this space, the plane flies from right, to above, to left of listener. Also, the ambience from the plane is not forward weighted.

The difference from a correctly set termination is really quite remarkable. It's one of those, "why wasn't I doing this earlier" moments. I'm off to pressure the developer of E-APO to add a delay feature, so that I can measure the effects biggrin.gif

If anyone knows of a windows based EQ, with level/delay control that works at a system level, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (E-APO is free), I would love to hear about it.

 

I have added a basic version of this to my jriver based setup, no tuning done so far... just a simple "copy [L|R] to S[L|R], attenuate by -6dB, delay by 24m" to see what happens. There is a marked change in the spaciousness of the mix which is vaguely unsettling in some senses, somewhat satisfying in others. I suspect this means it's not dialled in properly (unsurprising as I just whacked some values in based on someone else's room but you have to start somewhere) and/or I need to listen further.

 

Further experimentation is inevitable but the question I have is whether I should correct the SL/SR feed so that the response is flat at the LP or whether I should simply mirror the LR to the surrounds so I get what would they have played exactly (albeit attenuated by a fixed amount)? I guess this boils down to whether a perfectly corrected (synthetic) reflection is a good or a bad thing to humans (and I have no idea of the answer to that one).

 

Thoughts?

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post #272 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 08:47 PM
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I would try reducing the gain on the rears. Do you know the delay between your fronts and rears? You need to account for that also.

Also, the channel mixer plugin I am using in foobar isn't a simple copy of the channels.
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post #273 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

I have added a basic version of this to my jriver based setup, no tuning done so far... just a simple "copy [L|R] to S[L|R], attenuate by -6dB, delay by 24m" to see what happens. There is a marked change in the spaciousness of the mix which is vaguely unsettling in some senses, somewhat satisfying in others. I suspect this means it's not dialled in properly (unsurprising as I just whacked some values in based on someone else's room but you have to start somewhere) and/or I need to listen further.

Further experimentation is inevitable but the question I have is whether I should correct the SL/SR feed so that the response is flat at the LP or whether I should simply mirror the LR to the surrounds so I get what would they have played exactly (albeit attenuated by a fixed amount)? I guess this boils down to whether a perfectly corrected (synthetic) reflection is a good or a bad thing to humans (and I have no idea of the answer to that one).

Thoughts?

A few thoughts:

1) I would make it so the front left feeds the rear left. ditto for right. (perhaps this is how you are already doing it).
2) The rear channels only need to go down to the 300-500hz range (you can cross them over if you have that ability)
3) play with the attenuation (-5 to -10db range. Verify with ETC)
4) Locate at 110-120 degrees (rear speakers)
5) Run both ETC and FR with and without rears running (make sure your not creating nulls peaks in response and/or reflection anomalies created by the rear speakers) (check rear delay on ETC).

These are the major things I look at for my acoustically driven rear terminators. Only time will tell whether speaker driven rears need the same treatment.

Experimental ideas:

1) Mixing a portion of front right into left rear and visa versa (just a little here)
2) Changing delay time (20-30ms range)
3) EQing the rears for more high end (at 110-120 degrees, our ears don't pick up the high end content as well so a bit of boost (2-4db in the 2k and up range maybe helpful)
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post #274 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

2) The rear channels only need to go down to the 300-500hz range (you can cross them over if you have that ability)

Do you have a link handy that describes why?
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post #275 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Do you have a link handy that describes why?

Not handy. But I have read that our cues for spaciousness occur mostly in the 500-2k range (its somewhere in Toole's book). Sometimes up to 6 or 8k depending on whose research your reading.

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post #276 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 09:42 PM
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Thanks Jim. I shall start reading smile.gif
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post #277 of 303 Old 02-25-2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Thanks Jim. I shall start reading smile.gif








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post #278 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post

Also, the channel mixer plugin I am using in foobar isn't a simple copy of the channels.

what does it do?

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post #279 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 11:10 AM
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Musical ambience is to be found in the recorded information that is decorrelated from the L and R signals. To recover it you should send a 20-35 delayed L-R signals to both rear channels.
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post #280 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hardin View Post

Musical ambience is to be found in the recorded information that is decorrelated from the L and R signals. To recover it you should send a 20-35 delayed L-R signals to both rear channels.

Sorry for the typos. That should be "20-35 ms delayed L-R signal to both rear channels."
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post #281 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hardin View Post

Sorry for the typos. That should be "20-35 ms delayed L-R signal to both rear channels."

Are you basically suggesting sending mono to the rears?

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post #282 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 12:29 PM
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Yes. Not L+ R but L- R. Otherwise it wouldn't be decorrelated. You don't want directional information in this case.
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post #283 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hardin View Post

Yes. Not L+ R but L- R. Otherwise it wouldn't be decorrelated. You don't want directional information in this case.

Since there seems to be at least two people trying this out, it will be interesting which modality sounds best wrt what to send to the rear channels. I look forward to those impressions.

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post #284 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hardin View Post

Yes. Not L+ R but L- R. Otherwise it wouldn't be decorrelated. You don't want directional information in this case.

I will give this a try later using these settings as a starting point.

 

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post #285 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 05:52 PM
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This setup definitely provides a fuller sound that is perhaps more spacious but that could equally be me believing it to be so. It is also undoubtedly at the cost of clarity though, it is not bad but it takes away the benefit of a linear phase correction really. I am struggling to think how I would implement this via convolution alone atm, one to ponder perhaps.
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post #286 of 303 Old 02-26-2014, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

This setup definitely provides a fuller sound that is perhaps more spacious but that could equally be me believing it to be so. It is also undoubtedly at the cost of clarity though, it is not bad but it takes away the benefit of a linear phase correction really. I am struggling to think how I would implement this via convolution alone atm, one to ponder perhaps.

It shouldn't be costing clarity. Post a ETC so we know whats occurring.

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post #287 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post


It shouldn't be costing clarity. Post a ETC so we know whats occurring.


Here's a graph, I had to remove the "subtract R from L" entry when measuring in REW as subtracting an "empty" signal from an actual signal seemed to produce no signal instead of the full signal.

 


I suspect the 6ms ish reflection is off the rear wall, not sure what the one at 1ms is.

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post #288 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post


Here's a graph, I had to remove the "subtract R from L" entry when measuring in REW as subtracting an "empty" signal from an actual signal seemed to produce no signal instead of the full signal.





I suspect the 6ms ish reflection is off the rear wall, not sure what the one at 1ms is.

Well, that possibly explains things. The size of the room (psychoacoustically) is determined mostly by the first significant reflection (for the Haas kicker model we are emulating). I would venture that 1ms and 6ms reflection(s) and a whole host of other lesser ones are undermining the way we are trying to create spaciousness. I think for this to work properly, all the reflections up to the 25ms peak need to be under -20db.

I suppose I should have made clear this caveat when proposing the idea originally.

I have no idea what to expect from the 24ms peak under these conditions (lots of -8 to -15db peaks preceding the 25ms peak). It may still yield some benefit. I don't know.

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post #289 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post


Well, that possibly explains things. The size of the room (psychoacoustically) is determined mostly by the first significant reflection (for the Haas kicker model we are emulating). I would venture that 1ms and 6ms reflection(s) and a whole host of other lesser ones are undermining the way we are trying to create spaciousness. I think for this to work properly, all the reflections up to the 25ms peak need to be under -20db.

I suppose I should have made clear this caveat when proposing the idea originally.

yes I thought that might be the case but it's a few clicks to implement so I thought I'd give it a try anyway. It would be nice if, at some point, something in this game gives you something for nothing after all :)

 

I've been playing around a bit more tonight after I realised some of the difference was really a level change, once I squashed that then I was hard pressed to tell the difference even when I knew when the extra reflection was on.

 

It will be interesting to see a similar graph from Audionut11 though.

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post #290 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
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yes I thought that might be the case but it's a few clicks to implement so I thought I'd give it a try anyway. It would be nice if, at some point, something in this game gives you something for nothing after all smile.gif

I've been playing around a bit more tonight after I realised some of the difference was really a level change, once I squashed that then I was hard pressed to tell the difference even when I knew when the extra reflection was on.

It will be interesting to see a similar graph from Audionut11 though.

Your effort is not in vain though. We will learn more about the concept as things progress. All knowledge is beneficial.

Audionut11's ETC and listening experiences will add to things certainly.

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post #291 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

I will give this a try later using these settings as a starting point.


Have you tried just using JRSS in JRiver? It uses a more advanced algorithm to decorrelate the mains and add ambiance to the rears. The mains still have their original signal. If you check "move center to front L/R" then if you have a multi-channel system the center won't get a signal (and JRSS won't really move anything to the L/R). This allows for the normal soundstage with mains plus the ambiance of sides/rears.
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post #292 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 10:35 PM
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This is the way to go, but in addition a delay should be added to the signal sent to the rears.
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post #293 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post


Your effort is not in vain though. We will learn more about the concept as things progress. All knowledge is beneficial.

Audionut11's ETC and listening experiences will add to things certainly.

One other point of difference is that your terminator, unsurprisingly, has a much more slower decay as the assorted reflections arrive at the LP. In contrast, a terminator delivered by a speaker like this is more like a single impulse. Is this important or is it just the strength of the terminator alone that counts?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post


Have you tried just using JRSS in JRiver? It uses a more advanced algorithm to decorrelate the mains and add ambiance to the rears. The mains still have their original signal. If you check "move center to front L/R" then if you have a multi-channel system the center won't get a signal (and JRSS won't really move anything to the L/R). This allows for the normal soundstage with mains plus the ambiance of sides/rears.

I haven't tried that no, I can't find a clear explanation of what JRSS does to a 2.0 signal. Do you have one? 

 

I suppose, for my setup, I would 

 

set output format to 5.1

set JRSS to upmix

set move centre to front LR

set subwoofer to receive a full range signal (or set it to silent? the XO is done by my convolution filter)

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post #294 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
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I've been playing around a bit more tonight after I realised some of the difference was really a level change

what, are you guys working the PA down at the local theater ??? tongue.giftongue.giftongue.gif
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post #295 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

One other point of difference is that your terminator, unsurprisingly, has a much more slower decay as the assorted reflections arrive at the LP. In contrast, a terminator delivered by a speaker like this is more like a single impulse. Is this important or is it just the strength of the terminator alone that counts?

There are many differences, your point being one of them. My point was/is, someone looking for more "liveliness" in their listening experience may benefit from a terminator like peak generated from a rear surround speaker. Particularly, someone who has already worked at minimizing early reflections through some degree of room treatment and feels their room has gotten a bit dead.

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post #296 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 12:54 PM
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A little off topic guys, but I know that many of the guys / gals I respect subscribe to this thread, so here goes.......

I run with no physical center speaker and let my HTD L2 towers handle center content in phantom mode. I was double checking SPLs today via my Spears & Munsil 2 disc and noticed something that I think is normal, but want to double check. Using my SPL meter on a stand, at the MLP and using its 'minimum' setting I get 74.9db for both the L & R speaker, but when I ran the center tone I got 77.0db. I'm sure this is normal and a byproduct of both speakers producing the center tone so it is louder than 75db.

1) Would you consider this normal?
2) Should I ignore the 77.0db measurement, and leave it alone since both the L & R speakers are producing 74.9db each?
3) I don't think this is the way to go, but I want to be clear: Or should I lower the L & R speaker until the summed center tone is 75db even though each speaker would probably be around 73db each?

As always, thanks in advance! biggrin.gif

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post #297 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post


There are many differences, your point being one of them. My point was/is, someone looking for more "liveliness" in their listening experience may benefit from a terminator like peak generated from a rear surround speaker. Particularly, someone who has already worked at minimizing early reflections through some degree of room treatment and feels their room has gotten a bit dead.

OK so lets say we had a room like that, does the decay of the terminator make a difference?

 

The other thing I wonder how this differs from the upmixing modes commonly available in multichannel processor, i.e. how are those modes implemented?

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post #298 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
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OK so lets say we had a room like that, does the decay of the terminator make a difference?

The other thing I wonder how this differs from the upmixing modes commonly available in multichannel processor, i.e. how are those modes implemented?

The decay or "tail" of the terminator makes a difference, yes. If you can get a tail, then do so smile.gif Perhaps some reverb in the rears would act like a tail?

I cant help on the "modes" issue.

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post #299 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 02:55 PM
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A little off topic guys, but I know that many of the guys / gals I respect subscribe to this thread, so here goes.......

I run with no physical center speaker and let my HTD L2 towers handle center content in phantom mode. I was double checking SPLs today via my Spears & Munsil 2 disc and noticed something that I think is normal, but want to double check. Using my SPL meter on a stand, at the MLP and using its 'minimum' setting I get 74.9db for both the L & R speaker, but when I ran the center tone I got 77.0db. I'm sure this is normal and a byproduct of both speakers producing the center tone so it is louder than 75db.

1) Would you consider this normal?
2) Should I ignore the 77.0db measurement, and leave it alone since both the L & R speakers are producing 74.9db each?
3) I don't think this is the way to go, but I want to be clear: Or should I lower the L & R speaker until the summed center tone is 75db even though each speaker would probably be around 73db each?

As always, thanks in advance! biggrin.gif

I think you should leave it as is. Your findings are on par for the summation of the two adding to the center dB level. I feel an added 2dB more than likely helps a little with dialogue intelligibility. Keeping your mains at the proper 75dB will help them blend better with the surrounds as well, since they are all on the same level. Also, check to make sure you dont have some type of dialogue enhancer on or something of that nature, this might also bring the center dB up.
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post #300 of 303 Old 02-28-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think you should leave it as is. Your findings are on par for the summation of the two adding to the center dB level. I feel an added 2dB more than likely helps a little with dialogue intelligibility. Keeping your mains at the proper 75dB will help them blend better with the surrounds as well, since they are all on the same level. Also, check to make sure you dont have some type of dialogue enhancer on or something of that nature, this might also bring the center dB up.

Thanks for the time beast, much appreciated. No such dialog enhancer on my Denon, so I'm good there. I concur with your advise, and will leave the L/R at 75db. It sounds really balanced with the surrounds as is, and I am more then happy with it, but I just wanted some confirmation. smile.gif

Thanks!

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon X-2000 ~ HTD Level TWO Towers ~ HTD Level TWO Surrounds ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
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