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post #1 of 15 Old 03-28-2014, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,

 

My wife and I have a small restaurant with about 600 sq ft service area.  The room is 'L' shaped, which has made the acoustics and sound distribution a little difficult to deal with.  We want to upgrade our current setup but I'm stuck on how to proceed.  

 

Here's our current set up:

 

The amp and subwoofer are in a cabinet behind the bar (where they don't get sufficient ventilation though hasn't been a major problem as of yet).  

 

Above the bar are two speakers and then two more speakers above the window in the other part of the room. 

 

As it stands the sound isn't terrible but as you can see not evenly distributed to the back of the room.  We want to add another set of speakers at the back and have acquired a six room stereo speaker interface to individually control the volume levels.

 

 

Now, my problem is that every now and then we have friends come in and DJ our late nights.  Nothing too heavy, just some old rocknroll 45s for the most part.  The issue is that when it runs louder than normal for a couple hours the volume cuts down to half. My theory is that the ventilation issue is coming into play and it's going into self protection mode.  Is this the case?  or am I pumping too much power to it from the mixer?

 

Should I be looking to get a stronger amp?

 

There really isn't much storage for the amp, unfortunately.  As it is it's on its side and turned in as the cabinet is shallower than the amp.  

 

 

Here's what I'd like to know:

 

 

Are there any high powered amps with a shallower than normal depth?

 

What are good speakers that can be ceiling mounted?

 

Is it possible that my amp can't handle the loud volume coming form our turntables and that is what is causing the volume to cut out?

 

Does louder volume make the amp hotter than usual and require more ventilation?

 

 

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post #2 of 15 Old 03-28-2014, 05:18 PM
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Your biggest concern should be sound distribution. Patrons won't care about fidelity if they are sitting right under a speaker that is being cranked so it can be heard at the other end of the room.

70 volt systems are suitable for this application.
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post #3 of 15 Old 03-28-2014, 06:03 PM
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70v for 600 sqft!
I'd suggest getting a multi zone amp and system to control it.
If your budget gdoes there maybe a control4 matrix amp and controller.
You can then move the amp somewhere cooler.
Put the paperback book sized controller where the amp is. Then have Rhapsody as a internet music source and a 3.5mm jack for iPhone's and your Djokovic to line in to.
That then gives 8 discreet speaker locations for more even distribution and also the ability to tweak the volume by zone.
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post #4 of 15 Old 03-28-2014, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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@SMHarman 

Thanks for the tip.  I did some searching and am not sure what you mean by the "controller" for the Control4 system.  The unit itself is too big for my cabinet unless I tilted it.

 

I also need to be able to run my mixing board for the DJ to it rather easily.  The only other place for the amp to get cooler air flow would be the kitchen, which is just too far.  

 

On the other hand, I could likely mount this little unit somewhere discreet.  Any thoughts on these:

http://nadelectronics.com/products/digital-music/D-7050-Direct-Digital-Network-Amplifier#heading-downloads

 

 

Looks as though I can still run my ipod (which is our only source for music during regular service) via Airplay and have the turntables go into the coaxial ins.

 

Do you figure it has the juice to power 6 spkrs?  

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post #5 of 15 Old 03-28-2014, 08:56 PM
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You would put an HC250 wherr everything is now.
That would have an aux in for the db board.
The HC250 would connect to the amp with network cable and digital coax.
The amp connects to the 4 stereo pairs of speakers.
This is all then controlled from an I device or android or SR250 or touch-screen.
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post #6 of 15 Old 03-28-2014, 09:05 PM
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Do you have a budget in mind?
Another good option would be Sonos.
You can get the amps for existing speakers or some amped speakers.
The connect hooks up to streaming music iPods and aux in sources and is app controlled.
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post #7 of 15 Old 03-29-2014, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post

70v for 600 sqft!
I'd suggest getting a multi zone amp and system to control it.
If your budget gdoes there maybe a control4 matrix amp and controller.
You can then move the amp somewhere cooler.
Put the paperback book sized controller where the amp is. Then have Rhapsody as a internet music source and a 3.5mm jack for iPhone's and your Djokovic to line in to.
That then gives 8 discreet speaker locations for more even distribution and also the ability to tweak the volume by zone.

600 sq ft is more than you think when you are dealing with a restaurant full of patrons.

I owned a restaurant of similar size to the OP.
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post #8 of 15 Old 03-29-2014, 07:49 AM
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But 70v is for transmissions distance and signal loss.
Volume is driven by speaker sensitivity and amp power.
You don't need 70v to transmit signals around 600 sqft.
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post #9 of 15 Old 03-29-2014, 11:03 AM
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Constant voltage isn't just for distance, it's also for coverage. You can add as many speakers as required without spending mega dollars to drive each speaker separately.
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post #10 of 15 Old 03-29-2014, 05:38 PM
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Ok but it is fidelity constrained.

Starting at the top. What is the budget here and at 70v or 100v in Europe is this something the OP wanted to Diy or get an electrician in to do?
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post #11 of 15 Old 03-29-2014, 11:12 PM
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Of course it's "fidelity constrained", and I already said as much.

The goal here is coverage.
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-30-2014, 08:19 AM
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And the rock and roll Dj 45s. Which you could also argue are fidelity constrained.

Anyhow without to OPwe are just in some kind of debate without budget.

With approaches have merit.
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post #13 of 15 Old 03-30-2014, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post

And the rock and roll Dj 45s. Which you could also argue are fidelity constrained.

Anyhow without to OPwe are just in some kind of debate without budget.

With approaches have merit.

Indeed. There are many unaddressed aspects: accoustics, ceiling height, demographics (bar crowd, fine dining, pub), and yes, budget.
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post #14 of 15 Old 04-01-2014, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the feedback. I've been doing more research and have been coming up with a way to allow more ventilation. It seems the bet route might be to buy a new amp as the one I'm currently using is from 1989 (Yamaha ax-630). I was suggested to replace it w a new Yamaha rs700. Thoughts?
I can get two new speakers which will require also acquiring a speaker switcher w volume adjustment capabilities and impedance control. Suggestions?

I was also suggested picking up some paradigm atom 7's as they're small enough to wall mount. Our four speakers were currently using are 6 ohm Velodyne's. I'd like to replace those w 8 ohm speakers seeing as id running 6 of them from a 100w amp.

I still feel like I'm out of my element here.

My budget is $1000 Canadian. Ceilings are approx 12'.

Thanks
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post #15 of 15 Old 04-02-2014, 01:49 PM
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I'm not sure what goes for reasonable prices in CAN, so I will offer several options for each part of my suggestion. Don't be scared of the listed MSRP of this stuff as it's commonly available for half the price, or even less as used gear. I'd highly suggest you talk to a local professional to ultimately get this problem solved, perhaps your DJ will have some experience you can leverage. These are just some ideas to start your journey.

1. Get a Fender 300 Pro: http://www.fender.com/series/passport/passport-300-pro-black-120v-us/
(similar systems made by Mackie, Peavey, others)

This will be set up at the bar when the DJ spins. This would also be useful if you have parties or business meetings at your store as it has a microphone mixer (added benefit you can sell to patrons). It has a line output that you will run to your existing Yamaha amplifier that I would not replace if in good working order. The problems you are having now could be due to how the speakers are wired to the amp (see #3), or ventilation as you said. This way the same audio at a lower "elevator" level can be distributed throughout the restaurant and people can sit close to or away from the bar but still hear. That the music you intend to play at this time is oldies makes this that much simpler since you don't have to deal with subs or large speaker cabinets.

2. Install a simple compressor/limiter at the amplifier, such as the DBX 166: http://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/166xs
(tons of alternatives available)

This keeps loud spikes of audio from going through the ceiling system and causing unpleasant distortion. Once setup it should be easy to connect/disconnect the PA without changing any settings, and probably should be locked up so as not to be messed with.

3. Speaker selector with impedance matching: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10903&cs_id=1090307&p_id=8232&seq=1&format=2

Allows you to add another pair of ceiling speakers now and yet another pair later if you see the need. Built-in impedance matching is important if you don't want to have to worry about how to properly connect the speaker load to the amp ("ohms and such", lol).

4. Add a simple, inexpensive set of ceiling speakers above the far tables. Could be almost anything, perhaps from the same line as you have now. The purpose of the ceiling speakers is just ambient music and to repeat the PA output at a lower level so I wouldn't use anything exotic.

That's how I see this problem (without actually seeing the space which is a disability). Many solutions are available. Best of luck.
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