Are Automatic Voltage Regulators worthwhile? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 03-31-2014, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Are Automatic Voltage Regulators worthwhile? I have two APC Line R 1200s and I'm wondering if I should buy a third one to accomodate my second subwoofer.
I called APC today and the tech help guy indicated that a subwoofer's peak wattage is the critical measurement in determining what the capacity of the AVR is.
More specifically, I was hoping to be able to plug both of my SVS SB2000s ( 500watts RMS / 1100 watts peak ) into one of my 1200 watt capacity AVRs ...

Thank you :-)

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post #2 of 13 Old 03-31-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC1315 View Post

Are Automatic Voltage Regulators worthwhile? I have two APC Line R 1200s and I'm wondering if I should buy a third one to accomodate my second subwoofer.
I called APC today and the tech help guy indicated that a subwoofer's peak wattage is the critical measurement in determining what the capacity of the AVR is.
More specifically, I was hoping to be able to plug both of my SVS SB2000s ( 500watts RMS / 1100 watts peak ) into one of my 1200 watt capacity AVRs ...

It all depends on how bad the local power is, but in first world nations, not so much.
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post #3 of 13 Old 03-31-2014, 11:17 AM
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What you have to understand is that, if you get a power sag, the voltage drops. That doesn't mean your gear stops working. Nor does it mean it will have an effect on system performance. It just means the equipment will draw a little more current. Probably not an issue in the US of A.
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post #4 of 13 Old 03-31-2014, 01:11 PM
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You don't want to plug your subs into anything but the AC outlet. It doesn't benefit from voltage regulation and will put undue load on your AVR.
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post #5 of 13 Old 03-31-2014, 09:25 PM
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I agree with AmirM in that it is best not to use a UPS with a sub amp/ powered sub.

If your mains are not clean or you want to correct low voltage/ voltage fluctuations, check out Furman, JuiceGoose, or Middle Atlantic. Sub amps require a ton of peak power (and almost a ton of RMS power during heavy program material). You do not want this load on a battery backup. 

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post #6 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by BoogerBrains View Post

I agree with AmirM in that it is best not to use a UPS with a sub amp/ powered sub.

(1) You and Amir might want to read up on the APC Line R 1200. It is not a UPS!

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V32/ASTE-6Z7V32_R2_EN.pdf

"The Line-R automatically corrects brownouts (by boosting low voltage) and overvoltages (by stepping down high voltage) from the power utility service to levels that are safe for computers, as well as other sensitive equipment. APC’s Line-R provides the highest degree of protection from line voltage sags and swells, and has be en designed for many years of reliable, maintenance-free service.

IOW it is a tapped transformer with a built in automatic control circuit that monitors the incoming voltage and automatically picks a transformer tap that corrects the line voltage so that it is within tolerance. This is a boost/buck situation so that the transformer need not provide the entire needs of the load. This is not a UPS!
Quote:
If your mains are not clean or you want to correct low voltage/ voltage fluctuations, check out Furman, JuiceGoose, or Middle Atlantic.

Without actual product names, the above is not all that useful. Some or all of he vendors mentioned all sell similar products to this APC product.
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Sub amps require a ton of peak power (and almost a ton of RMS power during heavy program material). You do not want this load on a battery backup. 

Ever look at a power line monitor that is looking at the actual current needs of a subwoofer? Do you know what the OPs preferences are for bass? He's reporting no problems with the same equipment that he already has.
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post #7 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

(1) You and Amir might want to read up on the APC Line R 1200. It is not a UPS!

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V32/ASTE-6Z7V32_R2_EN.pdf

"The Line-R automatically corrects brownouts (by boosting low voltage) and overvoltages (by stepping down high voltage) from the power utility service to levels that are safe for computers, as well as other sensitive equipment. APC’s Line-R provides the highest degree of protection from line voltage sags and swells, and has be en designed for many years of reliable, maintenance-free service.
Thank you for your comment Arny but I said nothing about it being a UPS or assumed such. I specifically referred to the device as AVR (automatic voltage regulator). Are you correcting us because you think it will have value? There is efficiency loss in these devices which reduces the total power available to the sub. And you could get nuisance trips of their circuit breakers especially when the sub clicks on.
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IOW it is a tapped transformer with a built in automatic control circuit that monitors the incoming voltage and automatically picks a transformer tap that corrects the line voltage so that it is within tolerance. This is a boost/buck situation so that the transformer need not provide the entire needs of the load. This is not a UPS!
Because of its stepped response, its regulation is not good. I looked it up and its specs and it is +- 10% for a total of 20%. At 120 volts, that amounts to 24 volts. Even if there were audible benefit to regulation, we wouldn't get there with such large variation.

As I said, regardless of what the device is, you don't want to put it inline with the sub. Most likely the sub has a switchmode power supply which doesn't care what the input voltage is and provides much more precise regulation (for its low voltage output) than any stepped transformer.

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post #8 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

(1) You and Amir might want to read up on the APC Line R 1200. It is not a UPS!

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V32/ASTE-6Z7V32_R2_EN.pdf

"The Line-R automatically corrects brownouts (by boosting low voltage) and overvoltages (by stepping down high voltage) from the power utility service to levels that are safe for computers, as well as other sensitive equipment. APC’s Line-R provides the highest degree of protection from line voltage sags and swells, and has be en designed for many years of reliable, maintenance-free service.


Thank you for your comment Arny but I said nothing about it being a UPS or assumed such. I specifically referred to the device as AVR (automatic voltage regulator). Are you correcting us because you think it will have value?

That possibility is not excluded by the evidence I've seen so far.
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There is efficiency loss in these devices which reduces the total power available to the sub.

OK, but that doesn't mean that things are necessarily broken.

Quote:
And you could get nuisance trips of their circuit breakers especially when the sub clicks on.

The OP isn't complaining about that.

Quote:
IOW it is a tapped transformer with a built in automatic control circuit that monitors the incoming voltage and automatically picks a transformer tap that corrects the line voltage so that it is within tolerance. This is a boost/buck situation so that the transformer need not provide the entire needs of the load. This is not a UPS!
Because of its stepped response, its regulation is not good.
[/quote]

I disagree with that. the regulation might not be ideal, but it doesn't have to be. If the AVR prevents a nuisance shut down due to a brown out, then that OP might like continuing to listen to music instead of looking at a dead system.
Quote:
I looked it up and its specs and it is +- 10% for a total of 20%. At 120 volts, that amounts to 24 volts. Even if there were audible benefit to regulation, we wouldn't get there with such large variation.

If it keeps the voltage regulators in the power supply having enough voltage across them so that they keep regulating, then this could be a gain.

Quote:
As I said, regardless of what the device is, you don't want to put it inline with the sub. Most likely the sub has a switchmode power supply which doesn't care what the input voltage is and provides much more precise regulation (for its low voltage output) than any stepped transformer.

I looked at pictures of the Sub and it appears to be speced for line voltages from 100 to 120 volts. The owners manual appears to make no other claims. I suspect that it is good with > 120 volts maybe up to 144 volts, but what it does below 100 volts is less sure.

This whole discussion rests on what the real world line voltages are at the OPs location, and we don't have a clue about that. Will he ever post here again?
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post #9 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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First off, thanks to everyone for contributing to this discussion ...

Secondly, I have no idea what the real world line voltages are for my home ...

Additionally, as far as what has been offered thus far, at this point I am simply trying to grasp and understand the conversation. I plan on reading and re-reading everyone's input and piece it together to the best of my abilities :-)


I've always enjoyed listening to music ... and for the longest time I thought I had nice components with which to listen to my music.

Then, my son came home for thanksgiving break (freshman year) wanting some speakers for his computer ... within the next two months, my Bose 701s, 301s, and 161s ended up in the basement and soon thereafter were sold via craigslist.

He received 2 MartinLogan Motion 15s ( and just recently got a third one :-), my JBL PB10, and my Yamaha AVR ( and he's soon to get a PB2000 ) ... Dad got a a pair of Motion 40s, a Motion 30, a pair of ML LX16s, a Dynamo700, a Marantz SR5007 and UD5007 ... and I just upgraded to the dual SB2000s.


And during all the reading up on audio equiptment, I noticed that power management was also an element to consider as well. So ... I'm trying to get my head around all this at the moment ... I sincerely thank everyone again to helping guide me in the right direction.

This is a fine community @ AVS forums and it has brought me yet another enjoyable facet of the audio world to experience.

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post #10 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That possibility is not excluded by the evidence I've seen so far.
??? Arny you said I was talking about UPS and I explained I did not. What do you mean by "not excluded by evidence?"
Quote:
I disagree with that. the regulation might not be ideal, but it doesn't have to be. If the AVR prevents a nuisance shut down due to a brown out, then that OP might like continuing to listen to music instead of looking at a dead system.
Love to see data that says a brownouts kill subwoofers. Is this your gut feeling or have concrete info to back it?
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If it keeps the voltage regulators in the power supply having enough voltage across them so that they keep regulating, then this could be a gain.
That can't happen in a switchmode power supply. You are thinking of a linear power supply which is not used anymore in subs.
Quote:
I looked at pictures of the Sub and it appears to be speced for line voltages from 100 to 120 volts.
The specs say nothing about voltage range but yes, there is a sticker with that range on the input supply. Often that is put there to get UL/CE regulation since putting in a larger range, requires more testing and expense. If that was a hardcore requirement, it would also be in the spec. But even if it were so, violating it doesn't mean you damage the equipment.
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The owners manual appears to make no other claims.
Seem like you are playing with words smile.gif. The manual says nothing at all about the voltage range. That is different than "no other claims."
Quote:
I suspect that it is good with > 120 volts maybe up to 144 volts, but what it does below 100 volts is less sure.
Again, a switchmode power supply would not care about the voltage being 100 volts. Performance may go down but nothing bad would happen since the circuit is designed to operate at higher voltages.
Quote:
This whole discussion rests on what the real world line voltages are at the OPs location, and we don't have a clue about that. Will he ever post here again?
Well, he is here. And no, the rule about plugging subs directly into the outlet does not care about such conditions. This is a high power device with very large initial peaks when it starts. Anything put in front of it may current limit it and cause reduced performance and potential oscillation.

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post #11 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC1315 View Post

This is a fine community @ AVS forums and it has brought me yet another enjoyable facet of the audio world to experience.
This forum has more facets than a fine diamond with only two diamond cutters bickering over whom creates less dust.
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post #12 of 13 Old 04-01-2014, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


(1) You and Amir might want to read up on the APC Line R 1200. It is not a UPS!

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V32/ASTE-6Z7V32_R2_EN.pdf

"The Line-R automatically corrects brownouts (by boosting low voltage) and overvoltages (by stepping down high voltage) from the power utility service to levels that are safe for computers, as well as other sensitive equipment. APC’s Line-R provides the highest degree of protection from line voltage sags and swells, and has be en designed for many years of reliable, maintenance-free service.

IOW it is a tapped transformer with a built in automatic control circuit that monitors the incoming voltage and automatically picks a transformer tap that corrects the line voltage so that it is within tolerance. This is a boost/buck situation so that the transformer need not provide the entire needs of the load. This is not a UPS!
Without actual product names, the above is not all that useful. Some or all of he vendors mentioned all sell similar products to this APC product.
Ever look at a power line monitor that is looking at the actual current needs of a subwoofer? Do you know what the OPs preferences are for bass? He's reporting no problems with the same equipment that he already has.

 

Hi Arny,

My fault. I jumped to conclusions without looking at the link. You are correct in the above.

 

Thanks for catching,

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post #13 of 13 Old 04-02-2014, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC1315 View Post

This is a fine community @ AVS forums and it has brought me yet another enjoyable facet of the audio world to experience.
This forum has more facets than a fine diamond with only two diamond cutters bickering over whom creates less dust.

It appears that we have people around here who are already several miles OT and like to add more bickering of their own personal flavor. I guess the long term goal is that further debate be quashed and erroneous or questionable statements go unrebutted.
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