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post #181 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post


Full Quote: Context preserved...

~~Hello Sir: Jitter was most certainly exploited by marketers...

Also, you really don't need to understand Jitter, to enjoy or improve upon your audio system. Knowing about it doesn't equal being able to do anything about (for 99% of the population).

I do think that you will find if fun and educational to perform some home based A/B tests of your components, or even that of friends. It can make for a very interesting day or evening if you include others. However, it's probably best to start out on your own (equally as interesting, perhaps more so)... Less distractions and noise pollution; you will need your full attention and a quiet space, at least as you learn to listen and to hear!

I must apologize for my contributions and that of others in here, if they have led you to believing or feeling that you need to be a technophile to understand, enjoy or experience quality audio. - SUCH IS NOT TRUE!

We can all get carry away in here and as such; drift well off an appropriate path...

All of this being said, Jitter is a name given to binary time based processing errors that can clearly manifest them selves in objective measurements of an audio devices frequency bandwidth (and in other such tests) and also in subjective listening tests. This is a very broad definition, if you desire a fuller understanding, I would suggest that you undertake such learning from outside this forum; returning to debate it when you feel you have your 'sea legs' if you will, or have hit a mental road block and need some help with a very specific question or vain of questions.

I am also new and perhaps someone else will chime in and direct you to some quality post on the subject that will negate my direction to start your primary learning outside of this forum. There is definitely a lot of helpful people and commentaries in here but they're often in and amongst lesser and misleading commentaries... Danger - Will Rogers - Danger!

You may have already noticed, that my aforementioned assertions are highly debatable; however, if you're just joining us, please note such to be a fact. One that supports my opening statement to you.

Happy Audio

GF

This statement is an accurate broad view, which I believe was appropriate for the intended recipient... As one draws closer a much bigger world becomes visible, however, such a world can be overwhelming, if not eased into it!

Grow up a little, I concede that it's a gross over simplification; but I'm just trying to help a newbie... (could I have done a better job, yes - so lets not waste 3 pages debating such).

Your just sucking the joy out of things!

If you want to debate Jitter, open another thread and I'll come join you over there... But please don't open it with a text book definition; table an interesting occurrence that you have come upon in "previous decades designing data converters". I would be happy to learn a thing or two or more from your experiences - honestly! I would value that...

Your comment is unnecessary in light of the obvious fact that I was simply trying to encourage a fledgling member; it is also trite..

GP
You could have simply acknowledged you were wrong, instead you bloviate and attack the messenger. Well done.
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post #182 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

To All -

Before I sign off this evening, I like to invite everyone to chime in on what AVR they would like to have me perform some tests with as I objectively challenge Arnold.

I will be testing some of the preamps and amps within the receiver. One limiting factor, it should be sold at Future Shop or Best Buy so I can return after we're done with it...

Regards,

GF

So you're going to waste a vendor's time and return policy for your entertainment's sake? Or are you going to buy the best of the lot as a prize for the vendor? Not that I feel sorry for Canadians who will have to bear additional costs down the line.

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post #183 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:02 PM
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..

Are you calling everyone that claims such a liar?

.....  
Most likely just people with good imaginations and no interest in knowing reality. Liars would need to know the truth, no???
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post #184 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:20 PM
 
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You could have simply acknowledged you were wrong, instead you bloviate and attack the messenger. Well done.


 Not a chance on this one!

 

I posted another reply but hasn't posted yet due to the fact it contained a link... If it doesn't show up - I'll retype it! It might show up tomorrow...

 

This is basic stuff - to outright state that Jitter, in general, because that is in fact the manner in which we both used the term, has nothing to do with data timing errors, is tantamount to just being plain WRONG!

 

He stated that he works in a higher bandwidth - things are different down here, for one, we're converting to audio - how do you miss that fact!

 

He totally negated the SPDIF Jitter's effect on the final product.

 

You thought you were safe siding with him, didn't you!..?

 

Better think twice next time, because I haven't even unleashed a Pico meter of my Kung Fu...

 

Let me tell you a little story: A north American Story

 

When I was young my dad taught me how to fish, I mean he really thought me how to fish!

 

He would take me through shallow waters and bait the area with small feed to draw the small fish, and with them the opportunistic fish.

 

As all this was going on, he would have me slowly row the boat out toward deeper waters, having me do so in a seemingly random pattern. Eventually the larger fish would arrive on the scene and my dad would have me cast out my line, and before I knew it, I was catching big fish, left and right...

 

But eventually, my dad would always cast out his line and always took captive the largest fish, then sportingly set it free.

 

When I got older, I asked my dad why he took me fishing so much, he said, it was to teach me how to win at the game of life.

 

So let me now ask you this question:

 

What size fish do you think you are?

 

Rest well,

 

GF

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post #185 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post


So you're going to waste a vendor's time and return policy for your entertainment's sake? Or are you going to buy the best of the lot as a prize for the vendor? Not that I feel sorry for Canadians who will have to bear additional costs down the line.

 

Actually: I was being sarcastic, much like you are! I know the GM's at my locate FS & BB outlets, they are privy to my behaviors and the reason why. They typically are interested in finding out what I discover...

 

Good to see your a moral cat though, at least in some ways...

 

GF

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post #186 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:27 PM
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Fine, as long as the retailers are cool with the experiment (hopefully don't provide you with returned gear or some other cost saving method). Do you mind answering my question earlier about what your qualifications are?

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post #187 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:28 PM
 
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Most likely just people with good imaginations and no interest in knowing reality. Liars would need to know the truth, no???


Only if they're the originator of all lies!

 

I expect more from you Charles!

 

GF

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post #188 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:30 PM
 
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Fine, as long as the retailers are cool with the experiment (hopefully don't provide you with returned gear or some other cost saving method). Do you mind answering my question earlier about what your qualifications are?

 

Sure - what was your question?

 

They give me unopened gear and I return it in pristine condition, if not they have dinged me 15%, a small price for some knowledge and entrainment.

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post #189 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:48 PM
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What are your qualifications, i.e. education and/or professional, in this testing endeavor? While we're at it, what test equipment do you have?

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post #190 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 10:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post
 

 

Sure - what was your question?

 

They give me unopened gear and I return it in pristine condition, if not they have dinged me 15%, a small price for some knowledge and entrainment.


 LOL - its late! Sorry I read your question but it didn't register --- my bad...

 

As to my qualifications:

 

Unfortunately, sharing ones credentials is tantamount to providing a decent road map to ones identity... In that I desire to remain nameless in here, for no other obvious reason than that we can all get carried away in here, and in doing such in todays interconnected world, one can and has profoundly affected their career(s).

 

I'm here to have fun - to play, to be taught and to teach, if possible. Just to share time, in a confined space... I find it relaxing...

 

Why at AVS?

 

Primarily because I was invited.

 

Regards,

 

GF

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post #191 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 11:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What are your qualifications, i.e. education and/or professional, in this testing endeavor? While we're at it, what test equipment do you have?


Test EQ:

 

I have at my disposal, during work hours a robust suite of measurement goodies... I am free to utilize the equipment when items are open for such... My original intention was perform the measurements at work, but I am starting to think better of that idea. As I suspect that at least a few of my colleagues spend so time in here.

 

So I will most probably use my own equipment, until such point, for whatever reason it becomes insufficient for our purposes in here.

 

I don't wish to list all my measurement assets on line, but I will disclose whatever device and software I use for each type of test.

 

I will most certainly, provide all of the measurement variables, in conformity with whatever standards of measurement are employed.

 

Such as:

The sample rate, bit depth, frequency, temperature, signal type, scale, level of smoothing and input Voltage of DUT.

 

I am starting to think a video would be best... but I do have test suite that will facilitate nice, clear coherent screen shots, so I'll probably just start with that.

 

I will make my full discloser at the time I release the measurements...

 

Is there something else that you would like to see?

 

GF

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post #192 of 273 Old 04-15-2014, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post


 LOL - its late! Sorry I read your question but it didn't register --- my bad...

As to my qualifications:

Unfortunately, sharing ones credentials is tantamount to providing a decent road map to ones identity... In that I desire to remain nameless in here, for no other obvious reason than that we can all get carried away in here, and in doing such in todays interconnected world, one can and has profoundly affected their career(s).

I'm here to have fun - to play, to be taught and to teach, if possible. Just to share time, in a confined space... I find it relaxing...

Why at AVS?

Primarily because I was invited.

Regards,

GF

I can understand that, but you can't give a vague idea of your profession? I know its a small world....

Who invited you? Susilo?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post


I can understand that, but you can't give a vague idea of your profession? I know its a small world....

Who invited you? Susilo?

 

I believe what I have provided is vague. My profile has but a few other tim-bits...

 

I will leave it to the individual that invited me, to reveal themselves, should they desire to do so...

 

I do not know Susilo.

 

That's all I have to say about such things.

 

GF

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post #194 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 12:06 AM
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Thanks. Maybe your inviter will say something further, maybe not. I see nothing you've added to your profile at all, but do see in the intro thread you describe yourself as an old engineer of sorts employed in "audio", I suppose that's roughly what Arny's credits are, too. wink.gif He's a bit more open about what he's done and with who, though.

Looking forward to the results in any case....welcome to the forums, by the way.

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post #195 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

It certainly does. Jitter creates symmetrical sidebands similar to AM modulation (in reality it creates infinite sidebands of Bessel amplitude but in practice, only the first pair are significant in amplitude). That is how we can tell it apart from other distortions.

The test signal is ~11 Khz.. 20 Khz is 9 Khz higher. Subtracting 9 Khz from 11 we get 2 Khz. Therefore the distortion spikes are symmetrical and hence, are deterministic clock jitter at a frequency of 9 Khz.

I suggest reading this article I wrote on Jitter: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/DigitalAudioJitter.html. See the example graph from Julian Dunn in the very instrument I used:

AudioJitter.png

See the symmetrical spikes?

I appreciate if you are going to call me ignorant that you explain why you think that way.

I was reacting to Susilo's comment about the -3dB signal Arny used in his graph.
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There is no such thing as "typical for jitter." Jitter is whatever it wants to be. The measurement I showed was real and not planned. Jitter is caused by crosstalk that pollutes the clock signal. Its source and hence spectrum can be of infinite variety and strength.

'Typical jitter' has sidebands much closer to the fundamental test tone.

The graph you showed was contamination that originated from the source caused by severe crosstalk or software bug that polluted the clock signal.
Imo the characteristic of the 2kHz and 19Khz tones Is more like noise pollution/distortion than like jitter.

You implied that the DAC was the culprit while in fact the source was the real cause of the problem.
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I am sorry but your diagnostic is incorrect here. Clipping would not create two symmetrical sidebands. And certainly would not go away after a few seconds of playing in the media players. The vertical level is that way because of the analog amplification. The media player did not clip nor was the test signal clipped.
I am using a professional tool: the Audio Precision analyzer. The person using uncalibrated measuring device is Arny with his sound card measurements.

The Y axis in your graph shows a value of +10db for the signal peak amplitude. How can we tell that the signal was 0dBFS and not something else without disclosure of the settings?
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post #196 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 04:38 AM
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post #197 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

All of this being said, Jitter is a name given to binary time based processing errors that can clearly manifest them selves in objective measurements of an audio devices frequency bandwidth (and in other such tests) and also in subjective listening tests. This is a very broad definition, if you desire a fuller understanding, I would suggest that you undertake such leaning from outside this forum; returning to debate it when you feel you have your 'sea legs' if you will, or have hit a mental road block and need some help with a very specific question or vain of questions.

Jitter doesn't change bandwidth, it changes the frequency of the tones that make up audio signals. An extreme and highly audible example of jitter is musical vibrato. A less extreme but often still audible form of it is flutter and wow. Technically, it is Frequency Modulation (FM) distortion or Phase Modulation (PM) which are two different views of the same physical change.

If one goes outside of the forum, one will find more of the same from correct sources - e.g. Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter.

There are a lot of incorrect ideas about jitter. Most audiophiles are unaware of the logical connection between jitter, vibrato, flutter and wow. Jitter is not a new thing as it has been around at least as long as we have had recording and playback of audible sound. Before that relatively rapidly changing forms of jitter were probably more rare (outside of vibrato in music) but audible jitter was still around and audible in form of Doppler distortion.

Jitter is usually audible in analog recordings. Until we had pervasive digital audio most of the sources we listened to had audible and readily measurable jitter. Recordings that feature sustained held notes such as slow piano playing are most sensitive to jitter. I've always liked piano recordings and had a lot of experience with live performances of them. Even with the finest LP and analog tape equipment audible jitter was never that far away and often it crowded the musical stage with its appearance. One of the first things I noticed about digital recordings such as those made of live performances with a PCM-F1 digital recorder by an acquaintance, was the absence of audible jitter. Contrary to popular belief, the earliest CD players had relatively low jitter.

One of the most common sources of jitter in the early days of digital audio was the poorly-architected forced separation of DACs from CD transports.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


Jitter doesn't change bandwidth, it changes the frequency of the tones that make up audio signals. An extreme and highly audible example of jitter is musical vibrato. A less extreme but often still audible form of it is flutter and wow. Technically, it is Frequency Modulation (FM) distortion or Phase Modulation (PM) which are two different views of the same physical change.

If one goes outside of the forum, one will find more of the same from correct sources - e.g. Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter.

There are a lot of incorrect ideas about jitter. Most audiophiles are unaware of the logical connection between jitter, vibrato, flutter and wow. Jitter is not a new thing as it has been around at least as long as we have had recording and playback of audible sound. Before that relatively rapidly changing forms of jitter were probably more rare (outside of vibrato in music) but audible jitter was still around and audible in form of Doppler distortion.

Jitter is usually audible in analog recordings. Until we had pervasive digital audio most of the sources we listened to had audible and readily measurable jitter. Recordings that feature sustained held notes such as slow piano playing are most sensitive to jitter. I've always liked piano recordings and had a lot of experience with live performances of them. Even with the finest LP and analog tape equipment audible jitter was never that far away and often it crowded the musical stage with its appearance. One of the first things I noticed about digital recordings such as those made of live performances with a PCM-F1 digital recorder by an acquaintance, was the absence of audible jitter. Contrary to popular belief, the earliest CD players had relatively low jitter.

One of the most common sources of jitter in the early days of digital audio was the poorly-architected forced separation of DACs from CD transports.


Never said it changes bandwidth - have at it again...

 

GF

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post #199 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

Your remark shows only your ignorance about how to interpreted these measurements.

A 2kHz with a painted arrow and the words 'jitter' doesn't mean it's actual jitter that causes the 2kHz and 19.99kHz tones.
It certainly does.

No it does not. One of the interesting factoids about modulation is that both AM distortion (example tremolo) and FM distortion (example vibrato) can create similar sideband structures.

I hesitate to drop the great technical wisdom rather simply and clearly portrayed by the document below on this forum because it most certainly will be spun and twisted and mangled out of context, but let the party begin! ;-)

http://ece.wpi.edu/analog/resources/hp-am-fm.pdf

In that document we find:







What I want people to take away is the fact that the amplitude analysis of AM modulated signals (not jitter) and FM modulated signals (jitter) can appear to be the same. They often differ but they can appear to be the same because we are throwing away important information in our typical amplitude-only analyses, namely the phase of the sidebands.
Quote:
Jitter creates symmetrical sidebands similar to AM modulation (in reality it creates infinite sidebands of Bessel amplitude but in practice, only the first pair are significant in amplitude). That is how we can tell it apart from other distortions.

The above statement is rooted in the same truth that I presented with evidence above, but ends up apparently contradicting itself. Yes, "Jitter creates symmetrical sidebands similar to AM modulation", but the only reliable way to separate it from AM modulation is to measure the phase of the sidebands or analyse the signal by some other means such as examining the envelope of the signal for amplitude variations which is difficult for common jitter in digital audio because the amount of modulation is generally very small.

The more complex sideband structure characteristic of higher levels of FM modulation can be duplicated by means of AM modulation with a more complex modulating signal or overmodulation (which nets out to be a comparable process).

With low levels of FM modulation the Bessel function has vanishing coefficients for the sidebands past the first two.

Also, it is not uncommon to find jitter analysis where the two sidebands have unequal amplitude. This occurs when there is both AM and FM modulation of the base frequency or carrier by the same signal. The sidebands for the two forms of modulation have the same frequencies but different phase. They cancel on one side of the carrier and add on the other, and viola: different amplitude sidebands!
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Good Morning:

 

I see that a couple of my posts are being held up by a moderator... I have a busier day today, so I may not get to make an attempt at reposting them, at least not today, if they don't get released.

 

Arnold, I didn't state that it changes the bandwidth, but merely that it shows up during an objective measurements of a devices frequency bandwidth (AKA frequency response test) (and such other tests).

 

One could argue and should when measuring to determine a devices audio goodness, to what extent 'Jitter', more specifically SPDIF Jitter, has affected the qualities of its frequency response. In some instances, in really affordable inline convertors etc., it has caused serious distortions to the audio signal, as to limits the devices application with an audio system; otherwise know as cheap crap! Not so much of that running around these days, but it's possible to occur.

 

Its all about timing...

 

GF

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


No it does not. One of the interesting factoids about modulation is that both AM distortion (example tremolo) and FM distortion (example vibrato) can create similar sideband structures.

I hesitate to drop the great technical wisdom rather simply and clearly portrayed by the document below on this forum because it most certainly will be spun and twisted and mangled out of context, but let the party begin! ;-)

http://ece.wpi.edu/analog/resources/hp-am-fm.pdf

In that document we find:







What I want people to take away is the fact that the amplitude analysis of AM modulated signals (not jitter) and FM modulated signals (jitter) can appear to be the same. They often differ but they can appear to be the same because we are throwing away important information in our typical amplitude-only analyses, namely the phase of the sidebands.
The above statement is rooted in the same truth that I presented with evidence above, but ends up apparently contradicting itself. Yes, "Jitter creates symmetrical sidebands similar to AM modulation", but the only reliable way to separate it from AM modulation is to measure the phase of the sidebands or analyse the signal by some other means such as examining the envelope of the signal for amplitude variations which is difficult for common jitter in digital audio because the amount of modulation is generally very small.

The more complex sideband structure characteristic of higher levels of FM modulation can be duplicated by means of AM modulation with a more complex modulating signal or overmodulation (which nets out to be a comparable process).

With low levels of FM modulation the Bessel function has vanishing coefficients for the sidebands past the first two.

Also, it is not uncommon to find jitter analysis where the two sidebands have unequal amplitude. This occurs when there is both AM and FM modulation of the base frequency or carrier by the same signal. The sidebands for the two forms of modulation have the same frequencies but different phase. They cancel on one side of the carrier and add on the other, and viola: different amplitude sidebands!

 

Hi Arnold:

 

It appears that Jitter, is becoming a solid topic within this thread, after all.

 

Thank you for this investment in hear Arnold, your Kung Fu is in alignment with mine, at this point in time...

 

GF

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post #202 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 05:29 AM
 
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Thanks. Maybe your inviter will say something further, maybe not. I see nothing you've added to your profile at all, but do see in the intro thread you describe yourself as an old engineer of sorts employed in "audio", I suppose that's roughly what Arny's credits are, too. wink.gif He's a bit more open about what he's done and with who, though.

Looking forward to the results in any case....welcome to the forums, by the way.

 

Thank you kindly!

 

GF

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post #203 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 05:50 AM
 
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Awe, it looks like my further reply to DonH50 was finally cleared for release... It's posted on page 6.

 

GF

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post #204 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

Good Morning:

I see that a couple of my posts are being held up by a moderator...

IME they are not held but went right up, and were dealt with in accordance with an eariler post from the moderator: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527225/everything-sounds-the-same/180#post_24612407
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I have a busier day today, so I may not get to make an attempt at reposting them, at least not today, if they don't get released.

I wouldn't.
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Arnold, I didn't state that it changes the bandwidth,

My post did not quote any of your statements.
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but merely that it shows up during an objective measurements of a devices frequency bandwidth (AKA frequency response test) (and such other tests).

I've never seen real world jitter in good equipment do anything like that.
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One could argue and should when measuring to determine a devices audio goodness, to what extent 'Jitter', more specifically SPDIF Jitter, has affected the qualities of its frequency response.

I don't know why one would expect any such thing. I've never seen anything like it happen.

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In some instances, in really affordable inline convertors etc., it has caused serious distortions to the audio signal, as to limits the devices application with an audio system;

I do not have any experience with equipment like that, and I have checked out some abysmal crap in the past.
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otherwise know as cheap crap! Not so much of that running around these days, but it's possible to occur.

Its all about timing...

GF

Truism.
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post #205 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

Awe, it looks like my further reply to DonH50 was finally cleared for release... It's posted on page 6.

GF

so sorry to have been slow to handle: I will try to do better smile.gif
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post #206 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 06:14 AM
 
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Good morning Arnold:

 

It looks like all of my posts made it through the 'filters' just fine.

 

It also reads like you have minimal lab experience using modern test equipment...

 

When analyzing a devices frequency response in correlation to the respective phase content, a great many additional (and I dare say more important) insights are produced, inclusive of a window into jitter's influence upon frequency amplitude errors.

 

I think perhaps after I post the results for my amp measurements, I'll have to perform some jitter measurements, and post them as well. But I think I'll start a new thread if I endeavor down that road...

 

GF

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post #207 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 06:15 AM
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I provided sources that provide industry-standard definitions of jitter. I dispute that working at higher frequencies obviates applying the principles to audio, and for that matter did not say I have never worked with audio devices, just not the bulk of my career. Clock recovery was not the issue, just the definition of jitter presented, which I find confusing and misleading compared to typical definitions. Note that the impact of jitter depends upon the signal frequency and converter resolution, not the clock frequency. The sampling rate falls out of the equation.

I was going to cite various examples from radar and data links but decided it is just not worth the effort and would simply sound pompous at best and arrogant at worst. My reputation does not depend upon the opinion of an anonymous Internet poster.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #208 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 06:16 AM
 
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so sorry to have been slow to handle: I will try to do better smile.gif

 

Hi Mark,

 

Honestly not a big deal...

 

I am new so I am just trying to get my head around what's-what and such...

 

Your time and discernment is appreciated...

 

GF

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post #209 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 06:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I provided sources that provide industry-standard definitions of jitter. I dispute that working at higher frequencies obviates applying the principles to audio, and for that matter did not say I have never worked with audio devices, just not the bulk of my career. Clock recovery was not the issue, just the definition of jitter presented, which I find confusing and misleading compared to typical definitions. Note that the impact of jitter depends upon the signal frequency and converter resolution, not the clock frequency. The sampling rate falls out of the equation.

I was going to cite various examples from radar and data links but decided it is just not worth the effort and would simply sound pompous at best and arrogant at worst. My reputation does not depend upon the opinion of an anonymous Internet poster.


Fair enough and most definitely true enough!

 

Like I said, I understand your point(s)... we merely differ on how I should have defined Jitter to the 'newbie', if you will. That's what I have been primary debating with you; to which I have and again stated, that I could have done a better job, as it appears that I was perhaps a little to broad, but my heart was in the right place.

 

I didn't want to discourage him and I hope that I have not and openly apologize if I have. In reading my post to him, there was no tone that suggest such, but there was a questionably broad definition of non-specific 'jitter'. - I don't deny that - it was also lazy of me.

 

Also, I have said this before and I feel that's worth mentioning again, during some hours it can become a low grade blood sport in here, especially during the late hours... Please understand that my responses to you have been made in large part, in tongue and cheek fashion, and in no way reflect my opinion of you or your competences and general experiences.

 

Moving on...

 

Best regards,

 

GF

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post #210 of 273 Old 04-16-2014, 07:07 AM
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Guy - It's very clear you enjoy writing, and writing and writing. I especially enjoyed your clever response to my comment about your bloviation with more bloviation. Some may have thought it pompous, I saw through it and realized it's basis was humor.

I do look forward though to you providing actual data, research and analysis.
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