Everything sounds the same? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Is everything sounds the same?
Yes 18 41.86%
No 25 58.14%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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There is a group of people at AVS who believes that all cables sound the same, all HDMI are alike, all amplifiers sound the same, all DAC sounds the same.

So kindly click on your answer based on your personal experience. biggrin.gif

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post #2 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 07:46 PM
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Poll: "Is everything sound the same?" eek.gif

Fitting. Very fitting.
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post #3 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 07:46 PM
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I'm not aware of anyone says " all amplifiers sound the same, all DAC sounds the same." without adding some important qualifiers.

Maybe you could provide some quotes?
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post #4 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Just look around the CD player, amplifier, cables, transport discussions. The same group of people always chime in with "there is no ABX test that proves that there is any difference between "this" and "that" -- DAC/transport/amp/bluray player"
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post #5 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 07:55 PM
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"Industry insider?" What does that mean?

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post #6 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Just look around the CD player, amplifier, cables, transport discussions. The same group of people always chime in with "there is no ABX test that proves that there is any difference between "this" and "that" -- DAC/transport/amp/bluray player"
So, that means All??? Really???
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post #7 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

I'm not aware of anyone says " all amplifiers sound the same, all DAC sounds the same." without adding some important qualifiers.

Maybe you could provide some quotes?

You can do your own homework. Find someone who says that they all sound the same with no qualifications.
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post #8 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Naaah, most of them overuse their qualifications to force their mightier than thou attitude tongue.gif
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post #9 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

So, that means All??? Really???

Yup, just go to the Audiophile CD player discussion and some people are saying that all DACs sound the same. Hence there is no difference in buying a $70 BD player to play a CD vs buying a $1000 dedicated CD player.

My point is if that everything sounds the same, let's just close this forum down, everybody just buy the cheapest everything from any type of audio equipment and peripherals and call it a day. Right?

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post #10 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 09:06 PM
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It's a day !
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post #11 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 09:07 PM
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What qualifications does one need to be an "industry insider?" I'd like to join that club.

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post #12 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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A PhD in psychoacoustic would certainly help. wink.gif

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post #13 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 09:47 PM
 
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Quote:
 ~~A PhD in psychoacoustic would certainly help. wink.gif

Google

 

Dan Cheever's Thesis

 

http://www.dancheever.com/main/cheever_thesis_final.pdf

 

If you read it and need a hand deciphering it, I can help.

 

GF

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post #14 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 09:49 PM
 
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Quote:
 ~~A PhD in psychoacoustic would certainly help.

~~Google Dan Cheever's Thesis

 

After you read, if you read it, I can help you decipher it if need be...

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post #15 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

A PhD in psychoacoustic would certainly help. wink.gif

Is that what you have? If so, I'd like to see your dissertation. Is it available online?

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post #16 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 10:34 PM
 
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HI beaveav

 

I prefer to maintain my anonymity out here; however, I will state that I don't possess a PHD in s~~psychoacoustic.

 

However, I will state that I believe that there's much merit to Dan's Thesis, as it relates to this thread.

 

If you find me to be wrong, please forgive me in advance.

 

Best regards,

 

GF

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post #17 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 11:04 PM
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I've seen Dan Cheever's thesis before but I didn't read it closely, just skimmed through it. I'll take a closer look at it sometime when I get the chance. Thanks for the link.

By the way, it's a thesis submitted for an MS in EE, not a PhD dissertation - just in case there was any confusion.

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post #18 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

There is a group of people at AVS who believes that all cables sound the same, all HDMI are alike, all amplifiers sound the same, all DAC sounds the same.

So kindly click on your answer based on your personal experience. biggrin.gif

There's no such group but apparently this imaginary group spooks you? What about all them fancy qualifications you fill your sidebar with? What the heck do they mean? You're a cable salesman?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #19 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Yup, just go to the Audiophile CD player discussion and some people are saying that all DACs sound the same. Hence there is no difference in buying a $70 BD player to play a CD vs buying a $1000 dedicated CD player.

My point is if that everything sounds the same, let's just close this forum down, everybody just buy the cheapest everything from any type of audio equipment and peripherals and call it a day. Right?

Well, your example is appropriate since The Sensible Sound performed a DBT of an $80 RCA CD changer and CD players costing thousands. The outcome was null, couldn't detect a difference.
But, in the past there were players that were different under such protocols.

As to getting everyone to buy that player, well, it is just not human nature to do that. People want to be different, companies cannot be in business selling the same products, etc.
So that part is a silly point.
Better idea is to participate in such a test and see how well you can differentiate dacs or all that other stuff.
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post #20 of 273 Old 04-13-2014, 11:50 PM
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"Professional" reviewers hate the idea of any two pieces of gear sounding the same, let alone "all" (which nobody claims anyway). The reason being that their job would be unnecessary if true. IOW, the view is based on the desired outcome rather than the facts of the matter.
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post #21 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

Google

Dan Cheever's Thesis

http://www.dancheever.com/main/cheever_thesis_final.pdf

If you read it and need a hand deciphering it, I can help.

GF

After reading your comment I stopped when I saw "Bibliopgraphy"....that about right?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #22 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

There is a group of people at AVS who believes that all cables sound the same, all HDMI are alike, all amplifiers sound the same, all DAC sounds the same.

So kindly click on your answer based on your personal experience. biggrin.gif
Very poorly worded 'poll' that looks more like a troll. Arny covered why in #7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

Google

Dan Cheever's Thesis

http://www.dancheever.com/main/cheever_thesis_final.pdf
That was such a poor piece of work he never should have been awarded a masters for it.
I read it when it was first published and it has been pulled apart quite well before.
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post #23 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Just look around the CD player, amplifier, cables, transport discussions. The same group of people always chime in with "there is no ABX test that proves that there is any difference between "this" and "that" -- DAC/transport/amp/bluray player"

Perhaps you could tell us about the bias controlled listening comprisons you have performed with different DAC's that indicates that they sound different? I, for one, would be interested in reading about it because I wasn't able to find audible differences between the ones I tested. Fill me in.
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post #24 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Yup, just go to the Audiophile CD player discussion and some people are saying that all DACs sound the same. Hence there is no difference in buying a $70 BD player to play a CD vs buying a $1000 dedicated CD player.

My point is if that everything sounds the same, let's just close this forum down, everybody just buy the cheapest everything from any type of audio equipment and peripherals and call it a day. Right?

Speakers do not sound the same, subs do not sound the same, rooms do not sound the same.

People need different features from their AVR's, CD players, etc.

So while the amplifiers and various other mature technologies essentially transparent for the most part, there is still a huge need for this forum.

If you think your UltraSound 10000X Super Amplifier and Mondo Cables 4000K speaker wires sound better than other equipment, submit to testing methods that are generally considered valid.

Show me the data.
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post #25 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Naaah, most of them overuse their qualifications to force their mightier than thou attitude tongue.gif

The post above seems to characterize the people that the author apparently disagrees with as being arrogant. Bad faith noted.

However it is true that relevant superior knowledge and experience, such as the proper way to conduct bias-controlled listening tests and actually doing them again and again, can be a very powerful tool.

I work hard here literally begging people to do their own good listening tests and freely giving up everything I know about doing it, and this is my reward? Just goes to show that with some people no good deed goes unpunished. :-(
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post #26 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

What qualifications does one need to be an "industry insider?" I'd like to join that club.

Go to your profle, click on "edit community profile" type whatever you feel there....
Mine "Mike R, P.E. HT 11.3 audio, 130" scope screen", My name, I am a registered Professional Engineer (P.E.), with 11.3 audio in my HT and screen size (hey - size matters right biggrin.gif )

This thread title "Everything sounds the same" and the poll reminded me of this:


On a more closer to home subject, I kinda hope we do get 2" of snow tonight!
Then we'd break the snowfall record here held since 1880.
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post #27 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 06:58 AM
 
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I don't wish to cut-up the efforts of organized works such as Dan's Thesis or that of others. Dan is clearly a brother in arms, which is to say one that cares about audio quality, and the path(s) to improve it.Like most brothers, we don't always see things in the same light, but we're most definitely brothers.

 

I mentioned Cheever's merely because his paper is accessible to all and that his conclusion, which calls for a new measurement methodology,has merit and relates to the central theme of this debate, which is we cannot objectively prove what sounds good to all or a majority group, etc.

 

The current state of measurement technology has its place, without question and much 'goodness' and 'poorness, if you will; can be derived from them; however, there's a major gap in correlating the subjective observations with objective assertions.

 

From Dan's Table of Content:

 

~I. The lack of correlation between objective measurements and Subjective sound quality- 

 

1. Introduction……………………………………………………………….2

2. The History of Audio Measurements …………………...…………….….5

3. Examples of Standard Measurements …………………………………..19

4. Conclusion- a call for a new methodology……………………...……....26

 

In my humble opinion, this paper is worth reading, based solely on the fact that Dan does a decent job of evidencing the need for new test methods and metrics, etc.

 

I naively think that we can all agree on this point.

 

Best regards,

 

GF

 

PS I don't wish to start an untoward debate. I rather prefer some leisure, fun debates, which produce positive relationships and hopefully a transfer of new, substantiated knowledge between one or more parties.

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In response to: Lovinthehd

 

If you're referring to my 'new Members Introduction', I understand your meaning.

 

Please note the addition of a Post Script: I hope this keeps you from 'putting me out to pasture'... However, the idea of such, isn't all that troubling to me. A key phrase from me would be: Anyone worth responding to is also worth treating with respect.

 

 

Hi All:

 

I'm an old audio guy that still enjoys talking shop. Lots of new technologies afoot and changes in consumer desires, etc. Looking forward to chipping in my two-cents, now and again...

 

Also looking forward to learning a bunch..

 

GF

 

PS By old, I mean to suggest that I have been at it, if you will, for a few decades, not that I'm retired. I am still employed in 'Audio', again if you will; as a Senior Engineer. So technically, I am an old-dog, but not one that cannot be taught a new trick or two, while at the same time returning such.

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post #29 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 07:42 AM
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newbies are always welcome here at AVS smile.gif...regardless of age or experience...

we were all newbies here at AVS at one time...

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post #30 of 273 Old 04-14-2014, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Friendly View Post

I don't wish to cut-up the efforts of organized works such as Dan's Thesis or that of others. Dan is clearly a brother in arms, which is to say one that cares about audio quality, and the path(s) to improve it.Like most brothers, we don't always see things in the same light, but we're most definitely brothers.

I mentioned Cheever's merely because his paper is accessible to all and that his conclusion, which calls for a new measurement methodology,has merit and relates to the central theme of this debate, which is we cannot objectively prove what sounds good to all or a majority group, etc.

The current state of measurement technology has its place, without question and much 'goodness' and 'poorness, if you will; can be derived from them; however, there's a major gap in correlating the subjective observations with objective assertions.

From Dan's Table of Content:

~I. The lack of correlation between objective measurements and Subjective sound quality- 

1. Introduction……………………………………………………………….2
2. The History of Audio Measurements …………………...…………….….5
3. Examples of Standard Measurements …………………………………..19
4. Conclusion- a call for a new methodology……………………...……....26

In my humble opinion, this paper is worth reading, based solely on the fact that Dan does a decent job of evidencing the need for new test methods and metrics, etc.

I naively think that we can all agree on this point.

Best regards,

GF

PS I don't wish to start an untoward debate. I rather prefer some leisure, fun debates, which produce positive relationships and hopefully a transfer of new, substantiated knowledge between one or more parties.

The Cheever paper is about 25 years old. One response to it was Geddes and Lee's AES paper (almost a decade old but at least from this millenium!) can be found found here:

http://www.gedlee.com/distortion_perception.htm

This page references some other author's work.
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