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post #1 of 34 Old 04-22-2014, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I am in need of some assistance on how to properly setup my equipment for taking measurements with REW. I have read through all of the various threads on HTShack & here at AVS, but, being that my hardware is older, I am having trouble figuring all of this out. Here is what I have as hardware:

1. Dayton EMM-6 (mic)
2. Nady Audio SMPS-1X (phantom power supply)
3. Behringer UCA-202 (not sure what to do with this?)
4. Dell PP04X (lap top)

This older Dell laptop does not have an HDMI port. It only has a.) mic, and b.) headphone jacks, as well as the usual USB jacks. I am confused on how to set all of this up!

Can someone explain the best way to hook all of this up in order to start taking my measurements via REW? Which of these devices need a loop back and how is that done? My mic is, not to my knowledge, calibrated. Any advise?
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post #2 of 34 Old 04-23-2014, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Can someone please help me with this?
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post #3 of 34 Old 04-23-2014, 07:28 AM
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HTS has a post that describes the different connection methods - http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/spl-meters-mics-calibration-sound-cards/10001-rew-cabling-connection-basics.html - you want the section entitled REW connections using an ECM8000 microphone and XENYX 502 preamp (recommended combo, most economical)

 

It will be emm-6 into the nady, nady into the UCA-202 input, UCA-202 into the laptop & UCA-202 output to the AVR (or whatever)

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post #4 of 34 Old 04-23-2014, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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It will be emm-6 into the nady, nady into the UCA-202 input, UCA-202 into the laptop & UCA-202 output to the AVR (or whatever)

Ok, can you tell me if I have to do a loop back on any of those components, and if so, how does that need to be done? I have read the HTShack link you posted above, and still can't figure out the loop back stuff??
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post #5 of 34 Old 04-23-2014, 09:14 AM
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loopback would enable you to record accurate time of flight data, e.g. for aligning multiple subs or subs & mains. If you need this then it means using one channel on the UCA-202 for measuring and 1 for loopback. For example you might connect the R in to the R out on the UCA-202, the L in to the mic & the L out to the AVR. Make sure you check the relevant checkbox in the preferences so it knows you have a loopback connected.

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post #6 of 34 Old 04-23-2014, 08:41 PM
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Unfortunately you don’t have the right equipment, Marty. The ECM requires a mic pre amp, and you don’t have one. The Nady is only a phantom power source, it is not a pre amp. The UCA202 does not have a mic pre-amp either.

What you need is a USB interface that has a pre-amp and phantom power built in. I’d suggest perusing HTS’s REW Soundcard Database for ideas on what to get.

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post #7 of 34 Old 04-24-2014, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post


Unfortunately you don’t have the right equipment, Marty. The ECM requires a mic pre amp, and you don’t have one. The Nady is only a phantom power source, it is not a pre amp. The UCA202 does not have a mic pre-amp either.

What you need is a USB interface that has a pre-amp and phantom power built in. I’d suggest perusing HTS’s REW Soundcard Database for ideas on what to get.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Are you sure that this Nady won't work to power the mic in order to take measurements? I bought all of this stuff as a package from another forum member and he assured me that he used this exact same setup to take measurements with no problems at all. frown.gif

Are there any cheap USB interfaces that you would recommend? I thought that the Behringer UCA-202 is a USB interface but it sounds like I may need something else. Urgg!! This is so complicated! I wish that I had the money for a USB mic such as the UMIK-1 and an external sound card with an HDMI jack. Unfortunately right now I am unable to work until my treatments are complete, which is hopefully go to be sometime within the next 2 months. It really sucks to be poor!
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post #8 of 34 Old 04-24-2014, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

loopback would enable you to record accurate time of flight data, e.g. for aligning multiple subs or subs & mains. If you need this then it means using one channel on the UCA-202 for measuring and 1 for loopback. For example you might connect the R in to the R out on the UCA-202, the L in to the mic & the L out to the AVR. Make sure you check the relevant checkbox in the preferences so it knows you have a loopback connected.


Does the UCA-202 need to connect to the laptop via the RCA connectors or the USB cable that is built in to it? If I connect the UCA-202 via USB then what do I plug the RCA jacks into?

Does any other component need a loop back test for accurate Frequency Response measurements? What about the mic? It is not calibrated, so does that need anything done to or?


I have been reading about this for the past 3 days and am now confused more than ever! It must be the brain fog that my doc warned me about due to the chemo treatments. frown.gif
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post #9 of 34 Old 04-24-2014, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

loopback would enable you to record accurate time of flight data, e.g. for aligning multiple subs or subs & mains. If you need this then it means using one channel on the UCA-202 for measuring and 1 for loopback. For example you might connect the R in to the R out on the UCA-202, the L in to the mic & the L out to the AVR. Make sure you check the relevant checkbox in the preferences so it knows you have a loopback connected.


Does the UCA-202 need to connect to the laptop via the RCA connectors or the USB cable that is built in to it? If I connect the UCA-202 via USB then what do I plug the RCA jacks into?

The USB path is probably the best way. The general rule is to keep the digital music in the digital domain as close to the ears as you reasonably can.

If you don't use the analog outputs on the UCA 202, then no great loss.

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Does any other component need a loop back test for accurate Frequency Response measurements?

Probably not.
Quote:
What about the mic? It is not calibrated, so does that need anything done to or?


Most measurement type microphones are good enough to be used to vastly improve the SQ of your system without further checking or calibration.

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I have been reading about this for the past 3 days and am now confused more than ever! It must be the brain fog that my doc warned me about due to the chemo treatments. frown.gif

I am very sorry to hear that you have a situation that requires chemo. I'd stick to easier tasks for a while unless you need the distraction.
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post #10 of 34 Old 04-24-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Does the UCA-202 need to connect to the laptop via the RCA connectors or the USB cable that is built in to it? If I connect the UCA-202 via USB then what do I plug the RCA jacks into?

Does any other component need a loop back test for accurate Frequency Response measurements? What about the mic? It is not calibrated, so does that need anything done to or?

The UCA-202 connects to the computer via USB.

The RCA connections are used to connect to an analogue input on the AVR (or sub amp) & for loopback if you use it. Note that you don't need loopback for frequency response measurements.

 

As Wayne said though, you need a preamp to use the mic you have (apologies, I assumed it was a preamp as well as phantom power supply). If it's frequency response of a sub alone you're interested in then the RS SPL meter will do the job if you have one of those.

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post #11 of 34 Old 04-25-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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So let me see if I have this right...

The Dayton EMM-6 connects to the Nady SMPS-1X, which then feeds into the Right channel input on the Behringer UCA-202, then the UCA-202 feeds the Right channel output to the AVR, and the Left channel is left unused as it is already connected to the laptop via USB.

Does that look like the correct way to connect all of this? It is my understanding that all that is left to do after this point is to set the signal level in the AVR & Laptop and do the loop back connection stuff for calibrating the Behringer UCA-202. Does that cover it?
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post #12 of 34 Old 04-25-2014, 09:49 AM
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You're on the right lines. If the nady was a mic pre amp *and* a phantom supply then you'd have it right. However it's just a power supply so the mic signal will be too low to drive the line in of the UCA-202.

 

You either need to replace the nady with a combined preamp/power supply or replace the UCA-202 + Nady with a USB audio interface that has a mic preamp/power supply. 

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post #13 of 34 Old 04-25-2014, 11:34 AM
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Look at the FocusRite 2i2, it's a nice very simple interface. Recommended and hard to set up wrongly.

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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post #14 of 34 Old 04-25-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post

You're on the right lines. If the nady was a mic pre amp *and* a phantom supply then you'd have it right. However it's just a power supply so the mic signal will be too low to drive the line in of the UCA-202.

You either need to replace the nady with a combined preamp/power supply or replace the UCA-202 + Nady with a USB audio interface that has a mic preamp/power supply. 

What if I were to plug the Nady SMPS-1X into a wall wort style power supply? The forum member that I bought this package from included a power supply that I am unsure whether or not it can plug into the Nady, although I think it can, as he said that this package was exactly what he used to take measurements with REW.
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post #15 of 34 Old 04-25-2014, 12:35 PM
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If one is concerned about cost, the FocusRite wouldn't be my first choice at $149 SRP based on what OP already owns (no offense Nyal smile.gif). I have the UCA202 (and an Art DualPre) and the UCA202 was very easy to set up as well. Here's what I would suggest since you need to buy an additional component it seems:

Scenario 1)- Buy a Radio Shack SPL meter for about $49 Radio Shack
That meter also serves as your mic. It has an RCA style output jack that connects to one of your UCA202 inputs (R or L). The corresponding output of the UCA202 will go to your AVR Aux input. The USB cable of the UCA202 connects to your PC USB to communicate with REW (PC/REW generates signal thru 202 over to AVR which plays the tone/sweep, the SPL meter hears the tone/sweep from your speakers and sends signal back to 202 which then sends over USB back to PC/REW to display. With this setup all you need are standard RCA style cables.

Scenario 2) Buy the Xenyx 502 for around $45 SRP Xenyx
The Xenyx will allow you to use your existing Dayton mic. Similar to above, you will connect your mic to the Xenyx XLR mic input which also supplies phantom power to the mic. The Xenyx connects to the PC over USB to communicate with REW. The output of the Xenyx goes to your AVR Aux input. Similar signal path as above but some different cabling (mainly to the mic).

Hope that makes sense.
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post #16 of 34 Old 04-26-2014, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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If one is concerned about cost, the FocusRite wouldn't be my first choice at $149 SRP based on what OP already owns (no offense Nyal smile.gif). I have the UCA202 (and an Art DualPre) and the UCA202 was very easy to set up as well. Here's what I would suggest since you need to buy an additional component it seems:

Scenario 1)- Buy a Radio Shack SPL meter for about $49 Radio Shack
That meter also serves as your mic. It has an RCA style output jack that connects to one of your UCA202 inputs (R or L). The corresponding output of the UCA202 will go to your AVR Aux input. The USB cable of the UCA202 connects to your PC USB to communicate with REW (PC/REW generates signal thru 202 over to AVR which plays the tone/sweep, the SPL meter hears the tone/sweep from your speakers and sends signal back to 202 which then sends over USB back to PC/REW to display. With this setup all you need are standard RCA style cables.

Scenario 2) Buy the Xenyx 502 for around $45 SRP Xenyx
The Xenyx will allow you to use your existing Dayton mic. Similar to above, you will connect your mic to the Xenyx XLR mic input which also supplies phantom power to the mic. The Xenyx connects to the PC over USB to communicate with REW. The output of the Xenyx goes to your AVR Aux input. Similar signal path as above but some different cabling (mainly to the mic).

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks for the info Fotto! I will probably go with solution number two that you listed above, but, only if I can't get any outboard power to my Nady SMPS-1X, which I believe that I can with this external power supply.
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post #17 of 34 Old 04-26-2014, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Will I definitely be needing a Radio Shack SPL meter? Or can I setup everything to run measurements on REW using my legacy equipment that I already own?

So without a Rat Shack SPL meter, how do I set the levels properly?
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post #18 of 34 Old 04-26-2014, 06:56 AM
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Thanks for the info Fotto! I will probably go with solution number two that you listed above, but, only if I can't get any outboard power to my Nady SMPS-1X, which I believe that I can with this external power supply.
It is not about power, it is about amplification of the signal from the mic.
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Will I definitely be needing a Radio Shack SPL meter? Or can I setup everything to run measurements on REW using my legacy equipment that I already own?

So without a Rat Shack SPL meter, how do I set the levels properly?
You would have to know the sensitivity of the mic. It can be done (see http://johnr.hifizine.com/2013/03/room-eq-wizard-spl-calibration-without-an-slm/) but it is far easier to use an SPL meter.
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post #19 of 34 Old 04-29-2014, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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It is not about power, it is about amplification of the signal from the mic.
You would have to know the sensitivity of the mic. It can be done (see http://johnr.hifizine.com/2013/03/room-eq-wizard-spl-calibration-without-an-slm/) but it is far easier to use an SPL meter.

Ok, I will start looking for an SPL meter. Are there any budget meters that you can suggest? My local Radio Shack has one for like $50-$60 bucks, but, it is a digital meter and I am not sure if it would be optimal?? I also have an iPhone 5 and remember seeing some SPL meter apps that will give you a reading through the iPhone itself, but, I am guessing that the iPhone would not be anywhere near accurate??
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post #20 of 34 Old 04-29-2014, 06:34 AM
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Ok, I will start looking for an SPL meter. Are there any budget meters that you can suggest? My local Radio Shack has one for like $50-$60 bucks, but, it is a digital meter and I am not sure if it would be optimal?? I also have an iPhone 5 and remember seeing some SPL meter apps that will give you a reading through the iPhone itself, but, I am guessing that the iPhone would not be anywhere near accurate??

you probably need one of the natives (I'm in the UK) to help you with locally available products :)

 

what I would say though is that if an SPL meter is $50 or so then I would be surprised if you can't get a usb audio interface with mic preamp for not much more (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Art-ART-USB-Dual-Pre/dp/B002KEAT78) or a UMIK-1 mic is $95 + shipping from CSL.

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post #21 of 34 Old 04-29-2014, 08:29 AM
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Ok, I will start looking for an SPL meter. Are there any budget meters that you can suggest? My local Radio Shack has one for like $50-$60 bucks, but, it is a digital meter and I am not sure if it would be optimal?? I also have an iPhone 5 and remember seeing some SPL meter apps that will give you a reading through the iPhone itself, but, I am guessing that the iPhone would not be anywhere near accurate??

You really don’t need an SPL meter. You can just play REW’s test tone at a comfortable level and “tell” REW that it’s 75 dB and you’ll be able to take measurements. The only thing is that the dB indications on the left side of the graph won’t be meaningful. You’ll be able to accurately tell now many dB you have between a peak and trough, for instance, but if it shows a peak is hitting 87 dB it won’t actually be 87 dB. Make sense?

Also, I’m not sure if you’re entirely clear on what you actually need. The mic you have needs a power supply to operate – to put it in different terms, think of an active speaker verses a passive one. You have the power supply with the Nady. Now, the Nady itself needs to be plugged into the wall to generate the voltage the mic needs – that’s what the wall wart it came with is for.

Next the mic needs a pre amp to amplify its tiny signal to something usable. That’s what the Behringer 502 will do. And, the 502 has built-in phantom power, so if you get one you will no longer need the Nady. However, the unit fotto linked in his post does not have a USB connection. It might be worthwhile to spend a few more dollars to get the Q502USB, which does have a USB connection to the computer. It will make for a much simpler connection scheme than using the non-USB version.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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post #22 of 34 Old 04-29-2014, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
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However, the unit fotto linked in his post does not have a USB connection. It might be worthwhile to spend a few more dollars to get the Q502USB, which does have a USB connection to the computer. It will make for a much simpler connection scheme than using the non-USB version.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

OOPs, sorry about that. I linked the wrong model mad.gif Good catch Wayne.
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post #23 of 34 Old 04-29-2014, 08:59 AM
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I remember being warned off buying one of them as "no one has demonstrated it works with REW so caveat emptor", a quick google shows there is at least 1 report saying it doesn't work - http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/58364-rew-equipment-for-sub-setup/ - and none that I can find that say it does work. 

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post #24 of 34 Old 04-29-2014, 04:23 PM
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Ah, good catch 3ll! I knew the 302USB wouldn’t work, but I didn’t know the 502 had the same issue. Based on that I’m going to hazard a guess that nothing in that series is full duplex and as such will work not with REW.

Marty, you can still use the XENYX 502 version that fotto linked, although the cabling will be a bit convoluted. Here’s a picture diagram. The only difference is that the soundcard in the pictures uses stereo 3.5 mm mini-jacks, which need splitter cables to separate out the left and right signals. That won’t apply to you as your UCA2002 has standard RCA jacks. With the addition of the 502 you’ll be able to take measurements. The 502 also has phantom power, so you won’t need the Nady unit at all.




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post #25 of 34 Old 04-30-2014, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You really don’t need an SPL meter. You can just play REW’s test tone at a comfortable level and “tell” REW that it’s 75 dB and you’ll be able to take measurements. The only thing is that the dB indications on the left side of the graph won’t be meaningful. You’ll be able to accurately tell now many dB you have between a peak and trough, for instance, but if it shows a peak is hitting 87 dB it won’t actually be 87 dB. Make sense?

Also, I’m not sure if you’re entirely clear on what you actually need. The mic you have needs a power supply to operate – to put it in different terms, think of an active speaker verses a passive one. You have the power supply with the Nady. Now, the Nady itself needs to be plugged into the wall to generate the voltage the mic needs – that’s what the wall wart it came with is for.

Next the mic needs a pre amp to amplify its tiny signal to something usable. That’s what the Behringer 502 will do. And, the 502 has built-in phantom power, so if you get one you will no longer need the Nady. However, the unit fotto linked in his post does not have a USB connection. It might be worthwhile to spend a few more dollars to get the Q502USB, which does have a USB connection to the computer. It will make for a much simpler connection scheme than using the non-USB version.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Wayne, are you absolutely positive that the Nady won't work as the mic-pre/phantom power? I have the wall wort style power supply that I was told would work for this purpose. If not, then I guess that I will have to purchase the Xenyx 502 to use for this purpose. If I do purchase the Xenyx 502, does this require any loop backs to calibrate, or is that just for the sound card?
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post #26 of 34 Old 04-30-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, would purchasing a new sound card with an HDMI output simplify this stuff? Would an HDMI equipped sound card still need to be calibrated via a loop back?

Can anyone suggest a cheap external sound card with an HDMI jack that I can use with my older Dell laptop? I will try and pick up the Xenyx 502 soon as I have a local music store than can have it in 5 days for $50. I really want to find a new sound card with HDMI as well, preferably for $75 or less.
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post #27 of 34 Old 04-30-2014, 11:26 AM
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I am afraid i can only repeat the previous posts. Perhaps you can be specific about which bit of what has been posted you don't understand and then we can clarify.

It may also be useful to take a step back and say what you are trying to achieve one you have it setup.
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post #28 of 34 Old 04-30-2014, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wayne, are you absolutely positive that the Nady won't work as the mic-pre/phantom power?

I’ve seen nothing anywhere to indicate that the Nady SMPS-1X has a pre-amp built in. It’s a phantom power source only.


Quote:
I have the wall wort style power supply that I was told would work for this purpose.

Like any other device that has a wall wart, the Nady won’t work unless you plug it in to an electrical outlet. Don’t mean to sound harsh, but the guy you bought the gear from either mislead you or didn’t know what he was talking about. You will need additional equipment to take measurements: A mic pre amp. There’s no getting around it.


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If I do purchase the Xenyx 502, does this require any loop backs to calibrate, or is that just for the sound card?

Just the sound card. The 502 should have flat enough response not to need a loopback calibration.


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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Can anyone suggest a cheap external sound card with an HDMI jack that I can use with my older Dell laptop? I will try and pick up the Xenyx 502 soon as I have a local music store

You don’t need both a new soundcard and a 502. The 502 will work with your current UCA202 soundcard.


Quote:
would purchasing a new sound card with an HDMI output simplify this stuff?

No. The HDMI output would only be a different connection going from the soundcard to the receiver (i.e. instead of analog RCA cables). You’d still be dealing with all the cabling and connections seen in the diagram I posted above to get REW up and running.

Bottom line, here are your only options:
1. Get a Zenyx 502 to use with your current Nady and UCA202 sound card.
2. Ditch the Nady and UCA202 and get a USB audio interface, such as the TASCAM US122 or M-Audio Mobile Pre. It’s a soundcard, phantom power and mic pre-amp all in one box. Thus it is the “simplify” solution. Compare the diagram below to the one I posted above to see how easy and simple the connections are:




Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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post #29 of 34 Old 04-30-2014, 07:32 PM
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I have an M-Audio Mobile Pre that have no use for.


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #30 of 34 Old 05-01-2014, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I have an M-Audio Mobile Pre that have no use for.

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