Does it matter what type of rca cable for multi channel listening? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 58 Old 04-27-2014, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for posting that part of manual ratman.

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post #32 of 58 Old 04-27-2014, 07:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

From the manual of the Pioneer:
 

...except that some AVRs down-sample all hi-rez audio to 24/48 when applying autoEQ/room correction, even if they are 24/96 capable end to end.  Given the choice, pick room correction/auto EQ over 24/96, at least it's audible. 

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post #33 of 58 Old 04-27-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

... the distinction between analog and S/PDIF multichannel matters as the former can be used for high res and the latter cannot.
That is what I intended to convey. (poorly perhaps)

Also... are there hybrid SACD/DVD-A that provide a "standard" DD/DTS 5.1 (bitstream)? I thought the optional format was PCM stereo only with hybrids.
DVD-As usually have DD 5.1 or DTS versions in the DVD-V area of the disc for playback on standard players. Hybrid SACDs have CD versions, which are limited to stereo, of course.
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post #34 of 58 Old 04-27-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazoink View Post

...except that some AVRs down-sample all hi-rez audio to 24/48 when applying autoEQ/room correction, even if they are 24/96 capable end to end.  Given the choice, pick room correction/auto EQ over 24/96, at least it's audible. 
Take that up with the AVR manufacturer. It's not really relevant to this discussion.
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post #35 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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After setting it up with 5.1 analog it does not sound as good as bluray player with hdmi. The sub does not come on and I even checked the connection to make sure it was secure, maybe that channel does not work on the pioneer, bummer as I had high hopes for better sound, oh well it was only $20 for the player used and I might just put in the bedroom so I can play sacd's in 2 channel only.

Thanks for all who chimed in with their opinions and help.

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post #36 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 09:34 AM
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Have you played the test tones in the player to confirm that all channels are working.
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post #37 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Have you played the test tones in the player to confirm that all channels are working.

No and I don't recall seeing any test tones in the player, but I do get audio from all speakers except sub, the sub stays in stand by mode and is not be engaged for whatever reason. I even have the speakers set to small in the player settings.

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post #38 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 11:07 AM
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post #39 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Here's a copy of the manual.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/media/i3d/01/A/man-migrate/MANUAL000068845.pdf

Thanks, I did look at and had changed it to 5.1, but still no sub.

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post #40 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 07:18 PM
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LFE is recorded 10dB lower than the proper playback level. And, if you set speakers to Small in the player, the .1 output should be dropped another 5dB. When using multichannel analog, you need to boost the sub output by 10-15dB in the receiver in order to get it back to the right level. So, it is possible that you simply need to add the required boost in your AVR in order to get the sub working.

Meanwhile, that player seems pretty bare bones. It has no channel test tones, no configurable bass management crossover, and no channel trims to adjust levels.
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post #41 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

LFE is recorded 10dB lower than the proper playback level. And, if you set speakers to Small in the player, the .1 output should be dropped another 5dB. When using multichannel analog, you need to boost the sub output by 10-15dB in the receiver in order to get it back to the right level. So, it is possible that you simply need to add the required boost in your AVR in order to get the sub working.

Meanwhile, that player seems pretty bare bones. It has no channel test tones, no configurable bass management crossover, and no channel trims to adjust levels.

The problem seems to be there is no signal detected for the receiver to turn on the sub. So are you saying if I upped the db's on the sub that would help it to be detected and cause it to turn on?

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post #42 of 58 Old 04-28-2014, 07:42 PM
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I don't think your receiver turns on the sub. Rather, the sub wakes up when it detects sufficient signal from the AVR. The sub output from the player may be as much as 15dB low, which may be too low to wake up the sub with the material you are playing. Many receivers have a setting to boost the sub output associated with the multichannel analog inputs. That's where you need to apply the boost - in the AVR, not at the sub.
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post #43 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

I don't think your receiver turns on the sub. Rather, the sub wakes up when it detects sufficient signal from the AVR. The sub output from the player may be as much as 15dB low, which may be too low to wake up the sub with the material you are playing. Many receivers have a setting to boost the sub output associated with the multichannel analog inputs. That's where you need to apply the boost - in the AVR, not at the sub.

I think we are saying the same thing with the avr & sub waking up I just worded it different.

I will look into multichannel analog sub boost in my receivers manual. Thanks for the tip and hopefully that is all it is to get it to work.

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post #44 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 06:10 AM
 
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Does the sub ever work?  Has the sub cable been tested?

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post #45 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gazoink View Post

Does the sub ever work?  Has the sub cable been tested?

Yes sub works with all other devices ps4, xbox 360, bluray player etc., just not with this one. I was using component cables and wondering if that my be part of the problem, so I'm going to switch them out to standard red & white rca cables and see if that helps.

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post #46 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Many receivers have a setting to boost the sub output associated with the multichannel analog inputs. That's where you need to apply the boost - in the AVR, not at the sub.

I'm reading through the manual and I find nothing about multichannel bass boost, unless it is called something else I just don't see it.

Manual here if you see something I don't: http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/95818309ba141ad3a927a2958f4e130c

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post #47 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 06:47 AM
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Unfortunately, many Yamaha receivers don't have the analog sub boost setting and they often don't allow for separate digital and analog channel trims. That can make it hard to use Yamaha for multichannel analog.

If you want to determine whether the player sub output is actually working, I'd try kicking the sub output way up in the AVR. You can't leave it there because it will screw up your digital sources. But, it can be useful as a test. And, since the player lacks test tones, get a calibration disc that plays subwoofer tones.

Component video cables are just fine for audio.
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post #48 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I got it to work by unplugging sub cable from sub and replugging it in. I have to turn the bass way up in receiver settings to get a lot out of it. So with my findings I'm disappointed with how the bass is with multichannel analog and will just stick to using bluray player for sacd's and move the pioneer to bedroom for 2 channel sacd's.

Very disappointed with all of this and since yamaha has multichannel analog why don't they have a bass boost for it as it seems to be a core issue with multichannel analog.

Thanks for all who chimed in with their help!

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post #49 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tdogroeder View Post


Very disappointed with all of this and since yamaha has multichannel analog why don't they have a bass boost for it as it seems to be a core issue with multichannel analog.

The reason why the Yamaha has no analog eq is that all of its eq is done in the digital domain.

The "core issue" you mention is ultimately the responsibility of the people who produced the media.
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post #50 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 07:37 AM
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The "core issue" you mention is ultimately the responsibility of the people who produced the media.
Or perhaps a "deficiency" of the SACD player. And as always.... pilot (setup) error could be a possibility. wink.gif
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post #51 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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The SACD is Dire Staits BIA and it's 5.1 and a very good recording that sound awesome in my blurray player through hdmi.

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post #52 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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And as always.... pilot (setup) error could be a possibility. wink.gif

I have looked at the manuals of player & receiver and I believe I have all the correct settings. Probably more of the receivers weak bass management or lack there of with multichannel analog.

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post #53 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 08:20 AM
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Perhaps I have not been clear. Everything is working as designed.

LFE is designed to play 10dB louder than the full range channels, but is recorded at the same level as the others in order to prevent clipping during transmission of the loudest passages. In other words, LFE is 10dB low by design. Digital software in the processor does the needed 10dB boost to get the LFE level where it belongs. There's no such automatic software adjustment with analog, leaving it up to the end user to adjust the subwoofer output.

If you are going to only use multichannel analog, simply adjust the sub in the processor or at the sub itself. But, if you plan to use both digital and analog, it gets more complicated. Turning up the levels to get analog right means you have too much bass with digital. That's why many processors have a specific setting to boost the analog sub output without affecting the digital sources. Without such a setting, it is difficult to set up a receiver to use both digital and multichannel analog at the same time.

Also, this has nothing to do with EQ. It's about the output level of the subwoofer.

BIA is a wonderful disc. If you have an SACD player with HDMI, there's no reason to bother with MCH analog, which can be a pain to set up and which turns your processor into little more than an amp since all digital processing has to happen in the player prior to the digital to analog conversion.
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post #54 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Perhaps I have not been clear. Everything is working as designed.

LFE is designed to play 10dB louder than the full range channels, but is recorded at the same level as the others in order to prevent clipping during transmission of the loudest passages. In other words, LFE is 10dB low by design. Digital software in the processor does the needed 10dB boost to get the LFE level where it belongs. There's no such automatic software adjustment with analog, leaving it up to the end user to adjust the subwoofer output.

If you are going to only use multichannel analog, simply adjust the sub in the processor or at the sub itself. But, if you plan to use both digital and analog, it gets more complicated. Turning up the levels to get analog right means you have too much bass with digital. That's why many processors have a specific setting to boost the analog sub output without affecting the digital sources. Without such a setting, it is difficult to set up a receiver to use both digital and multichannel analog at the same time.

Also, this has nothing to do with EQ. It's about the output level of the subwoofer.

BIA is a wonderful disc. If you have an SACD player with HDMI, there's no reason to bother with MCH analog, which can be a pain to set up and which turns your processor into little more than an amp since all digital processing has to happen in the player prior to the digital to analog conversion.

I'm sticking with hdmi in my better system for sacd, it is a much better sound.

Since I'm going to use 2 channel with the pioneer, is it best to use the 2 channel L&R or multichannel L&R?

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I'd use the regular stereo outputs. What is the player feeding?
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post #56 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

I'd use the regular stereo outputs. What is the player feeding?

I swapped out the component cables for regular stereo ones. Do you mean "what is the player feeding" the receiver? If so, yamaha & emo amp.

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post #57 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 06:56 PM
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Yes, that's what I meant, what sound processor. I don't think it much matters which outputs you use. But, using the regular stereo inputs means the Yamaha will digitize the analog source for whatever processing you want to do. It will not digitize the multichannel inputs, if your bedroom receiver even has them.
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post #58 of 58 Old 04-29-2014, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Yes, that's what I meant, what sound processor. I don't think it much matters which outputs you use. But, using the regular stereo inputs means the Yamaha will digitize the analog source for whatever processing you want to do. It will not digitize the multichannel inputs, if your bedroom receiver even has them.

Bedroom is a yamaha rxv757.

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