Speaker wiring help - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-12-2014, 05:30 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post


+1

The difference between acoustic delay (speed of sound) and electrical delay (~68% speed of light) is often confused by novices. This is where the timed audio cable myth comes from IMO. Now as you well know at higher frequencies, in the tens of MHZ range, path length does start to matter - just look at any PC motherboard and you can see the length delays built into the circuit board traces. But none of this makes a hill of beans worth of difference with baseband audio in entertainment systems.

 

Now you're mixing even more terms. And drawing more wild conclusion, based on more assumption and fiction!

 

I am talking about an Apple and your talk about an Orange, as well as other fruits!

 

The speed, of light waves, are only comparable to acoustic waves or that of electronically conducted waves, in that their respective speeds are dependent upon the medium(s) that they are traveling through.

 

Looking just at light: Light in a vacuum and only in a vacuum travels at 299, 792, 458 meters per second, it travels slower through all other, mediums. Outside of a vacuum, the medium(s) that their waves traverse, dictate their average rate of travel. Therefore, it is impossible to make a statement, which suggest that there's a locked ratio between any of them (without a host of other qualifying conditions: medium, temperature and frequency, at a minimum). You have not provided such, yet you have offered up a locked ratio, stating 68% (you've made this claim twice now)...

 

Of the three waves mentioned, each has a currently understood top speed / cap, within given mediums; but all have varying lower speeds of which, have not all been discovered or documents at this time. If we can learn how to efficiently and greatly delay wave energy (store and release), specifically sunlight, as it travels through various, engineered substrates, we will one day have an infinite energy source to draw upon (until our sun dies and us with it). I believe the current world record for the slowing of sunlight through a medium, has the beams of light exiting at 17miles or Kms per hour... That massive delay, creates a buffer of stored energy in the medium! Think, it could usher in a new generation of photovoltaic cells, or some such invention. - VERY COOL STUFF!

 

Back to what I have been talking about and not what Glimme and Don keep attempting to introduce, which is misdirection and confusion, not relevant understandings.

 

I, very clearly, have been speaking to group delays, measured within a electronic circuit, a loop of wire, with known qualities of energy, inputted into it, being compared to what exits it. The difference is distortion. Time based distortion(s) that are know as group delays, not phase delays, or any other type.

 

This measurement, as I have previously stated, always, without exceptions, excites greater errors, in the lower audio spectrum of octaves; not the tens of MHz ranges, which makes it abundantly clear again, that Glimmie is talking about something else. Therefore his comments are not relevant to the central theme, of any of my postings.

 

I measured two cables, same make and model from the same spool, just different in length, by a ratio of 1:2 and posted the results for all to ponder, because the distortion are significant in cable Y; specifically because cable Y is less than 50'.

 

I measured such delays (frequency based delays - group delays), in an electronic signal path, by frequency as they passed through 'x & y' amounts of 99.99% pure copper, etc.

 

I posted them, they are real. I did not post the phase delay of the cable; I measured the group delays which, which are frequency dependent, which is to say, that they are independently determined by frequency, across the entire audio spectrum of sound - 20Hz to 20KHz... Phase delays are not measure this way.

 

So for the last time, I am not making any claims as to the audibility of these findings, at least not in this thread. Like you, I have an opinion (but unlike you, I am keeping it to myself, for now). What doesn't require an opinion, is fact. And the fact is that I have measured and recorded significant frequency distortions within speaker wire, at a length that will take everyone by surprise (they surprised me)! These distortions, due to their measure, are worth understanding better.

 

Glimme I must subtract at least three points due to your retort, diminishing your score to -2.

 

With all do respect for you and facts...

mc2ed is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-12-2014, 07:00 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20

 

 

The subjective importance of uniform group delay at low frequencies

LR Fincham - Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, 1985 - aes.org
... lo audible changesin sound quality. ... [2] SP Lipshitz, M. Pocock, and J. Vanderkooy, ceptual
thresholds of group delay distortion at low fre- "On the Audibility of Midrange Phase Distortion
in Audio Systems," J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 30, pp. 580- quencies. 595 (1982 Sept.). ...

 

The subjective importance of uniform group delay at low frequencies

LR Fincham - Audio Engineering Society Convention 74, 1983 - aes.org
... group delay distortion at low frequencies can produce subtle but clearly audible changes in sound
quality. More work is obviously needed so that the perceptual thresholds for group delay distortion
can be established. It already seems likely, ... the lower limits of audibility. ...
 

Audibility of linear distortion with variations in sound pressure level and group delay

ER Geddes, LW Lee - Audio Engineering Society Convention 121, 2006 - aes.org
Recent psychoacoustic studies of nonlinear distortion have yielded some new insights into
what audible problems in loudspeaker might be related to. This paper will show the results
of recent subjective tests which extend the work of various previous works to show that ...
 

On the audibility of midrange phase distortion in audio systems

SP Lipshitz, M Pocock, J Vanderkooy - Journal of the Audio Engineering …, 1982 - aes.org
... musical or acoustic transients (which are largely oscillatory in nature), but it is clear that the effect,
if audible, is extremely ... Thus the increased audibility of the phase effects which we have found
with headphones may in the future apply also to ... [16] JR Ashley, "Group and Phase ...
 

Perception of phase distortion in anti-alias filters

D Preis, PJ Bloom - Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, 1984 - aes.org
... London, Division of Engineering, London W1M 8JS, UK Experimental results on the audibility
of phase ... introduced by a cascade of two eighth-order Butterworth filter pairs was audible, as was ...
measure of this form of phase distortion is a graph of group delay versus frequency ...
 

Just noticeable and objectionable group delays in digital hearing aids.

J Agnew, JM Thornton - Journal of the American Academy of …, 2000 - search.ebscohost.com
... more difficult for the subjects to detect a 2- to 3-msec echo in the delayed sound as ... processing
currently under devel- opment among hearing aid researchers and manufacturers could lengthen
group delay times into the range where there could be noticeable audible effects ...
 

The interaural time difference in binaural synthesis

P Minnaar, J Plogsties, SK Olesen… - … Society Convention 108, 2000 - aes.org
... [2] determined thresholds of audibility for single 2 ... low Q, dichotic all-pass section introduces a
group delay at 0 Hz larger than 30 ps it is audible. ... Therefore, any value of the interaural group
delay difference of the excess phase components in this frequency range can be used to ...
 

Loudspeaker measurements and their relationship to listener preferences: Part 1

FE Toole - Journal of the audio Engineering Society, 1986 - aes.org
... come to basically similar conclusions, The recent work has been more thoroughly investigative
and puts some limits on the thresholds of audibility of various phase and group-delay effects. ...
[41] D. Clark, "Measuring Audible Effects of ... [45] R. Bticklein, "The Audibility of Frequency ...
 

Time correction of anti-aliasing filters used in digital audio systems

J Meyer - Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, 1984 - aes.org
... The measurement data taken on the resulting system show linear group delay characteristics
to 18 ... corrected digital converter and the uncorrected converter, we found a clearly audible
difference which ... The audibility of the effect was influenced by both the repetition rate and the ...
 
 
If after reading all of this, you don't look upon the delays that I have measured, as significant, then not only have I failed you, but so have all of the others, noted above.
 
mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 07:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 389
My take just from the 2 posts above (and lots I heave read over the years ) are that there are a lot of other more significant delays in the playback chain than would otherwise be afforded by an adequately sized gauge speaker wire at distances under lets say maybe 100ft?

The measured delays in the wires referred to in the 2 above posts may or may not be significant enough to affect audibility I can't state as fact either way.

I'm not an E.E. however a prominent speaker designer and E.E. who's well known company bears his name once told me "you can't hear the wires "
and assured me they tested that extensively before reaching that conclusion ofc we were not discussing commercial theater systems .

To my way of thinking at least *my money is better spent else ware than expensive cables . ☺

This is always informative especially considering the author. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 08:04 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

My take just from the 2 posts above (and lots I heave read over the years ) are that there are a lot of other more significant delays in the playback chain than would otherwise be afforded by an adequately sized gauge speaker wire at distances under lets say maybe 100ft?

To my way of thinking at least *my money is better spent else ware than expensive cables .
An EE once told me "you can't hear the wires "

This is always informative especially considering the author. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


Hey thanks for your post...

 

To be clear, I'm not making any claims, as to where to spend your money, in your audio system...

 

I'm here to share the fact that time errors are more critical then once understood. Delays as small as 1.6 ms between 1-4KHz have been proven to be audible. That's smack dab in the middle of the audio band. There is tons of energy in this region, in every recording. If a speaker had perfect phase in everyway, the speaker wire, amongst other things in the signal change, would be thought to be critical, by all.. Just because speakers currently produce the largest amount group delays, doesn't mean that the other group delays are unimportant, it actually makes them more important, because they get added to the final output stage - the transducer (AKA Loudspeaker), which is already running grossly out of time at many different frequencies.

 

So, many believe that speaker wire is of little to no importance, if the length is kept short, and it's properly gauged (AWG) for the application. You just stated 100', many more have stated 50'.

 

I have proven that there are very significant errors, in a cable much shorter that those lengths. What is really interesting is that cable 'x', measured well, and the cable that I used is under a buck a-foot. So I'm shocked that no one is interested in knowing the length and the brand of cable x.

 

I don't need to re-read other peoples works from the past anymore, I've read almost all of them, as they came, post 1985, and read the older stuff as I came across it. For years, I carried these types of paper around with me everywhere. Over the years, I have met many of the authors of such papers and discussed them directly. None of us need to keep looking outside of this thread, because I'm merely asking everyone to guess at a length of wire, and to make up their own mind about the importance on their own, afterwards! Running around the web looking for more information before you know the cable length is tantamount to putting the cart before the horse!

 

My measurements have been posted. Only two things remain. 1. For the lengths to be revealed, 2. for all of the readers to make up their own minds, as to whether or not, they feel swayed to investigate further.

 

Here's a cheap and easy test.

1. Purchase 45' of lamp wire.

2. Cut two lengths at 15'

3. Cut two lengths at 7.5'

4. Install and listen to the shorter cable for a couple of weeks. You must become very familiar with your system, while using this length.

5. Install and listen to the longer cable, when you have 30-minutes to sit and directly listen to your system. You will be able to perceive that something is different. I will say no more.

 

You will be able to hear a difference. I should post a few obvious qualifiers, but I'm not going to do so - this is just for you. Just one actually, make sure that you only run in two-channel mode - no other speakers, including subwoofers shouldn't be running.

 

It's cheap, its fun, and you'll discover something. That something is a variant of what I have measured, in my own cables.

 

Thanks again for your post.

 

Please take a guess at the length of cable Y - which is the longer cable, which depicted the significant group delay time errors.

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 08:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 389
That's interesting. I've used various lengths (well under 50' ) of different brand,guage ,type and length but otherwise adequate speaker wires in the studio with decently revealing studio monitors. I just used 100' as a random # earlier.
There was no instance that *I can recall that I was able perceive a difference in sound as long as the source ,playback chain , speaker placement and listening positions were the same in level matched comparisons. eek.gif

Personally I believe the source ,speakers ,(playback chain other than speaker wires if otherwise adequate ) , room treatments ,speaker placement etc. are far more significant. Ofc the monitors are not the most efficient things on the planet and are being fed with a 450wpc rms . amp .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 08:46 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

That's interesting I've used various lengths (well under 50' ) of different brand,guage ,type and length but otherwise adequate speaker wires in the studio with decently revealing studio monitors. I just used 100' as a random # earlier.
There was no instance that *I can recall that I was able perceive a difference in sound as long as the speaker placement and listening positions were the same in level matched comparisons. eek.gif


Well then, If I'm reading you correctly; I think your stating that your satisfied to use just about any length of cable in your system, based on your components, application and configuration. Who can ask for more, when there all ready satisfied.

 

However, for the sake of novelty, or just to kill some boredom one day, you may want to attempt the exercise that I describe, precisely, inclusive of the cheap lamp wire.

 

Cheers and have a good night.

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 08:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
mc2ed wrote:

Well then, If I'm reading you correctly; I think your stating that your satisfied to use just about any length of cable in your system, based on your components, application and configuration. Who can ask for more, when there all ready satisfied.

That's the long and short of it I 'm fine at this point. Actually I've been studying the age old argument of loss less vs loosy audio encoding/playback since I work with both types that's always an interesting discussion . I'm not otherwise qualified to discuss the efficacy of the measurements being discussed here in most small studio ,home theater , home listening or any other audio applications . I can only relate *my experiences


best regards

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 09:25 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post


That's the long and short of it I 'm fine at this point. Actually I've been studying the age old argument of loss less vs loosy audio encoding/playback since I work with both types that's always an interesting discussion . I'm not otherwise qualified to discuss the efficacy of the measurements being discussed here in most small studio ,home theater , home listening or any other audio applications . I can only relate *my experiences


best regards


Hey:

 

A positive attitude is always welcome in my books... And you don't have to have a degree in anything to get in on the discussion in here. I'm just trying to get 10-people to guess at a wire length...

 

I'm starting to think that people are becoming concerned that I'm going to say that the cable is 2' or something like that and change their world... It's not two-feet, it's longer. It's long enough to hookup and properly space speakers in most any ones home.

 

By the way - where do you stand on loss less vs. lossy?

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 09:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc2ed View Post

Now you're mixing even more terms. And drawing more wild conclusion, based on more assumption and fiction!

I am talking about an Apple and your talk about an Orange, as well as other fruits!

The speed, of light waves, are only comparable to acoustic waves or that of electronically conducted waves, in that their respective speeds are dependent upon the medium(s) that they are traveling through.

Looking just at light: Light in a vacuum and only in a vacuum travels at 299, 792, 458 meters per second, it travels slower through all other, mediums. Outside of a vacuum, the medium(s) that their waves traverse, dictate their average rate of travel. Therefore, it is impossible to make a statement, which suggest that there's a locked ratio between any of them (without a host of other qualifying conditions: medium, temperature and frequency, at a minimum). You have not provided such, yet you have offered up a locked ratio, stating 68%...

Of the three waves mentioned, each has a currently understood top speed / cap, within given mediums; but all have varying lower speeds of which, have not all been discovered or documents at this time. If we can learn how to efficiently and greatly delay wave energy (store and release), specifically sunlight, as it travels through various, engineered substrates, we will one day have an infinite energy source to draw upon (until our sun dies and us with it). I believe the current world record for the slowing of sunlight through a medium, has the beams of light exiting at 17miles or Kms per hour... That massive delay, creates a buffer of stored energy in the medium! Think, it could usher in a new generation of photovoltaic cells, or some such invention. - VERY COOL STUFF!

Back to what I have been talking about and not what Glimme and Don keep attempting to introduce, which is misdirection and confusion, not relevant understandings.

I, very clearly, have been speaking to group delays, measured within a electronic circuit, a loop of wire, with known qualities of energy, inputted into it, being compared to what exits it. The difference is distortion. Time based distortion(s) that are know as group delays, not phase delays, or any other type.

This measurement, as I have previously stated, always, without exceptions, excites greater errors, in the lower audio spectrum of octaves; not the tens of MHz ranges, which makes it abundantly clear again, that Glimmie is talking about something else. Therefore his comments are not relevant to the central theme, of any of my postings.

I measured two cables, same make and model from the same spool, just different in length, by a ratio of 1:2 and posted the results for all to ponder, because the distortion are significant in cable Y; specifically because cable Y is less than 50'.

I measured such delays (frequency based delays - group delays), in an electronic signal path, by frequency as they passed through 'x & y' amounts of 99.99% pure copper, etc.

I posted them, they are real. I did not post the phase delay of the cable; I measured the group delays which, which are frequency dependent, which is to say, that they are independently determined by frequency, across the entire audio spectrum of sound - 20Hz to 20KHz... Phase delays are not measure this way.

So for the last time, I am not making any claims as to the audibility of these findings, at least not in this thread. Like you, I have an opinion (but unlike you, I am keeping it to myself, for now). What doesn't require an opinion, is fact. And the fact is that I have measured and recorded significant frequency distortions within speaker wire, at a length that will take everyone by surprise (they surprised me)! These distortions, due to their measure, are worth understanding better.

Glimme I must subtract at least three points due to your retort, diminishing your score to -2.

With all do respect for you and facts...

This is pointless!

I shall now join the other professionals of this forum who have smartly decided to ignore this noise.

Is this what AVS forum is coming to?
Ratman likes this.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
mc2ed wrote,

By the way - where do you stand on loss less vs. lossy?

As for MP3s vs loss less (2ch/2.1ch stereo) lets just say ............... that's an ongoing discussion here at AVS eek.gif......I was a die hard nay sayer .for years .....until I got schooled a bit on that here at AVS and studied up on it . Arny and some others here gave me quite an education! and urged me to study and do my own tests . I self studied perceptual encoding and some brief reading on human hearing perception and a few AES papers. I also did a lot of AB and ABX level matched testing in my modest studio to educate myself at least to my satisfaction.... for now. .


Now I listen to some high bit rate mp3 and .variable bit rate .AAC they can sound real good virtually as good as CD's particularly variable bit rate .AAC a lot of it has to do with the quality of the encoder and the original recording/mastering I use Audacity/Lame. for my conversions.

I *believe there are *some cases with complex music passages where a loss less source file *may play back better with all things being equal *sometimes in a loss less format ex : 96/*** or 24/48 source file converted and played back at 16/44.1 or a 16/44.1 source played back at same which should be more than sufficient in any case ....IMO .

I did the SACD thing for a few years and found that for me with two otherwise identical commercial CD and SACD
mastered and recorded equally they sounded the same to me and others when level matched on the same playback chain as well.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 09:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
andyc56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc2ed View Post

The subjective importance of uniform group delay at low frequencies



LR Fincham - Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, 1985 - aes.org
If after reading all of this, you don't look upon the delays that I have measured, as significant, then not only have I failed you, but so have all of the others, noted above.

Well, since you are implying that you've read this, I have one question for you. In the paragraph immediately following the bold subtitle "3 Conclusions" of this paper, what is the third word? If you can answer this correctly, I may reconsider my view of your posts. If you can't or if you dodge the question, it will reinforce my previous view.
andyc56 is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:11 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post


There is exactly what I stated!. Am I not allowed to paraphrase in your world?


If I am misunderstanding, then make an effort to help me understand; you are talking about two different waves (are you not?), then you make a reference to the speed of each (did you not?), suggesting that each was constant or a % of a constant, bring the speed of light into the mix (did you not?), without qualify anything (like medium of transport, temperature, pressure, frequency, etc. - or did I miss that as well?).

 

The speed of sound is not constant. Classroom speak for new pupils is as follows:

 

The speed of sound is the distance travelled per unit of time by a sound wave propagating through an elastic medium. In dry air at 20 °C (68 °F), at sea level, the speed of sound is 343 metres per second (1,125 ft/s). This is 1,234 kilometres per hour (767 mph), or about a kilometre in three seconds or a mile in five seconds.

 

In fluid dynamics, the speed of sound in a fluid medium (gas or liquid) is used as a relative measure of speed itself. The speed of an object divided by the speed of sound in the fluid is called the Mach number. Objects moving at speeds greater than Mach1 are traveling at supersonic speeds.

 

And it continues on from there: citation Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound if you follow this link, a quarter of the way down the thread, that speaks to its dependence on 'medium'.

 

I merely expanded on your comment, bring the rest of the picture to bear weight and correct your inference of fixed rates of travel, to such a magnitude that one could arbitrary cite ratios, etc.

 

You also were referring to phase delays again, and not group delays; I have only been talk about group delays in a very specific manner, with a sampled measurement. Based on your own words, you have demonstrated that you don't understand the difference, and I can understand that because, it can be a little difficult to get your head around, especially if you have a preexisting notion about such.

 

What sins have I commented: I've brought measurement, math, science and citations... Why do you keep attempting to discredit my postings. They are solid, and far from fluff or BS, as you have accused.

 

You have not produced one shred of objective evidence, to even slightly discredit my measurements. They're real and really important to all who desire learn more about audio goodness's. Isn't that why most of joined AVS - that's why I joined, and to engage in a sensible level of banter from time to time - but not all the time.

 

You just keep throwing things at the wall, like your hoping something will stick, or resonant with others, and that they will join you in your emotional quest.

 

This last bit of commentary from you is very distasteful...

 

I think that you have stated, or at least intimated that you're some type of electronic engineer; if you are, then you know what I am saying is correct, and your action are even more deplorable; if your just masquerading, all of this then makes sense to me.

 

I have not, and will not disclose my credentials. I will let my posts speak to such. Overtime, I will find a home in here amongst other sporting gentlemen, who desire objective truth, over blurry and detrimental exchanges.

 

Glimmie, I can debate you forever, and as a small piece of insight, I haven't opened my can of spinach yet, but it's on my desk. If I take this completely to math, it will be game over. Unfortunately, for most everyone else as well, because most don't sufficiently understanding the language, which is why I am make such a large effort to paraphrase relationships and goodness's, etc.

 

Before things escalate, I would like to wave a white flag, and apologize, if I have misunderstood your post, but you must admit that it could have been worded more clearly and that my response isn't out of left field, based on how it currently reads.

 

Regards,

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
No, you cannot debate me forever because I am not going play anymore.

I have further suggested to the moderators that the post history and contributions of knowledge by myself and the other members attacked here be reviewed.

We'll let them decide what is valuable information to the forum membership at large.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:29 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post


Well, since you are implying that you've read this, I have one question for you. In the paragraph immediately following the bold subtitle "3 Conclusions" of this paper, what is the third word? If you can answer this correctly, I may reconsider my view of your posts. If you can't or if you dodge the question, it will reinforce my previous view.


Trite - approach

 

I have repeatedly ask for but one answer - to but one question, and I have entertained every question and untoward comment put to me (inclusive of all of yours). And now, you think that you can place me in some kind of checkmate, or leverage some fictional worth you have placed upon you doing anything for me, outside of answering my singular question: LOL - as if... 

 

If you wish to remain in the dark, there you will remain. Emotion has no place in objective analysis - none. Especially lynch mop science... Confess that the earth is square or you will be beheaded!

 

Consider your question, dodged in equal magnitude to your efforts in dodging mine!

 

Yet more mud on your hands... attrition is a harder stain to remove!

 

PS I am willing to look at any measurements or documents that contradict my understandings... I have yet to see one from anybody... I've just seen a lot of sticks and stones...

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
andyc56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 215
The answer to my question consists of one simple word. All you would need to do is look up the article that you claim knowledge of, and provide a simple one-word response, which would indicate in an objective way whether or not you are indeed in possession of the article.
andyc56 is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:45 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

No, you cannot debate me forever because I am not going play anymore.

I have further suggested to the moderators that the post history and contributions of knowledge by myself and the other members attacked here be reviewed.

We'll let them decide what is valuable information to the forum membership at large.


I have been fair and nothing but objective. When I have responded, I have responded with greater care and kindness than I have been shown. I have made an attempt to add real measurements, citations, etc. and scientific data, towards assisting the OP with answering his and other curiosities about the importance of cable length. I have attempted to answer all of your questions at length, and others, when asked or challenged.

 

My intention was to make a post or two - in expectation of receiving 10 quick answers to my question, I was going reveal the actual cable lengths, so that others could learn what I did, which was is that cable lengths of surprisingly short length can develop serious time distortions. All of this was offered as a Pondering...and nothing more...I didn't say that it was audible, just significant... I have repeated that over and over...

 

I was immediately attacked and several flags were posted and the moderator remove several post. In other words, I initiated a positive gesture and quality postings, but was met with inhospitable behaviors. I am new here, and this is frankly an outrage, how you and others are trying to discrete me, regardless of the fact - that none of you have brought an once of contextually relevant, objective data to counter me with - If am wrong, I will acknowledge it ,plain and simple. If I am, please show where - I don't wish to remain in the dark if I in fact, am...

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:49 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

The answer to my question consists of one simple word. All you would need to do is look up the article that you claim knowledge of, and provide a simple one-word response, which would indicate in an objective way whether or not you are indeed in possession of the article.


All you have to do is answer my question...  or perhaps I should just say DITTO!

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:56 PM
Advanced Member
 
andyc56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 215
I've already explained via the pertinent math why your measurements are entirely bogus. Because the measurements are completely invalid, any question that assumes the measurements are valid is meaningless. That was already dealt with on Friday night before the three-hour meltdown that ensued.

My question is actually objective and does not assume the truth or falsehood of any assertion whatsoever. It seems you don't actually have the article in question.
andyc56 is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 11:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc2ed View Post


I have been fair and nothing but objective. When I have responded, I have responded with greater care and kindness than I have been shown. I have made an attempt to add real measurements, citations, etc. and scientific data, towards assisting the OP with answering his curiosities about the importance of cable length. I have attempted to answer all of your questions at length, and others, when asked or challenged.

My intention was to make a post or two - in expectation of receiving 10 quick answers to my question, I was going reveal the actual cable lengths, so that others could learn what I did, which was is that cable lengths of surprisingly short length can develop serious time distortions. All of this was offered as a Pondering...and nothing more...I didn't say that it was audible, just significant... I have repeated that over and over...

I was immediately attacked and several flags were posted and the moderator remove several post. In other words, I initiated a positive gesture and quality postings, but was met with inhospitable behaviors. I am new here, and this is frankly an outrage, how you and others are trying to discrete me, regardless of the fact - that none of you have brought an once of contextually relevant, objective data to counter me with - If am wrong, I will acknowledge it ,plain and simple. If I am, please show where - I don't wish to remain in the dark if I in am...

Broken record:

I am not going to debate your science anymore. IOW I am not going to dig out old calculus books to prove less than 50 feet of wire does not have 46ms of delay. I don't need to.

The OP asked for some simple layman advice on speaker wire. The next eight posts fulfilled that quite well. Then you came along.

Agian, I'll defer to the moderators. If they feel you're diatribes are helpful to the membership at large, then you shall continue.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 11:02 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post


Broken record:

I am not going to debate your science anymore. IOW I am not going to dig out old calculus books to prove less than 50 feet of wire does not have 46ms of delay. I don't need to.

The OP asked for some simple layman advice on speaker wire. The next eight posts fulfilled that quite well. Then you came along.

Agian, I'll defer to the moderators. If they feel you're diatribes are helpful to the membership at large, then you shall continue.


Lets leave it at that then...

 

Rest well...

 

PS - You have to disprove 46 ms of Group Delay - Not Phase Delay... in speaker wire under 50'...

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-12-2014, 11:16 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

I've already explained via the pertinent math why your measurements are entirely bogus. Because the measurements are completely invalid, any question that assumes the measurements are valid is meaningless. That was already dealt with on Friday night before the three-hour meltdown that ensued.

My question is actually objective and does not assume the truth or falsehood of any assertion whatsoever. It seems you don't actually have the article in question.


Then let's agreed to disagree...

 

I used an Audiomatic Clio 10 Audio Test Suite QC version, to perform the measurement. It was their math, that produced the result. http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=51

 

I don't see how I could have made any connection mistakes...

 

1. Calibrate system

2. Short one end of speaker loop

3. Connect other end to least leads

4. Increase the output Voltage to 3-Volts RMS

5. Verify Input Voltage

6. Run automatic test sweeps.

 

I ran the sweeps several times and on different days.

 

At any rate - Please, lets just agreed to disagree, in here...

 

Rest well

 

PS - I am exiting answering anymore questions within this thread. I will check in from time-to-time and if when I note 10 answers to my question, I will simply reveal the length of cable 'y'...

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-13-2014, 12:13 AM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post


As for MP3s vs loss less (2ch/2.1ch stereo) lets just say ............... that's an ongoing discussion here at AVS eek.gif......I was a die hard nay sayer .for years .....until I got schooled a bit on that here at AVS and studied up on it . Arny and some others here gave me quite an education! and urged me to study and do my own tests . I self studied perceptual encoding and some brief reading on human hearing perception and a few AES papers. I also did a lot of AB and ABX level matched testing in my modest studio to educate myself at least to my satisfaction.... for now. .


Now I listen to some high bit rate mp3 and .variable bit rate .AAC they can sound real good virtually as good as CD's particularly variable bit rate .AAC a lot of it has to do with the quality of the encoder and the original recording/mastering I use Audacity/Lame. for my conversions.

I *believe there are *some cases with complex music passages where a loss less source file *may play back better with all things being equal *sometimes in a loss less format ex : 96/*** or 24/48 source file converted and played back at 16/44.1 or a 16/44.1 source played back at same which should be more than sufficient in any case ....IMO .

I did the SACD thing for a few years and found that for me with two otherwise identical commercial CD and SACD
mastered and recorded equally they sounded the same to me and others when level matched on the same playback chain as well.


Hey - I almost missed your reply - Thank you for it.

 

I must say that you are knee deep in the hoopla now! I have read a good number of Arny's posts and it seems like you have found a safe mentor.

 

I haven't as of recent sampled any of these formats, to the degree that you have. My entire library is CD. In my phone - there some level of Mp3, I'm satisfied with the sound quality, for the intended applications that I typically call upon my phone to support, as a source unit.

 

I am waiting for the next level... no idea what it will be, just a lot of guessing...

 

I find CD (RedBook) to contain sufficient audio. Back in the day, when DAC's were let's say, in their infancy, I use to spend a lot of time seeking out external DAC's and auditioning them, it was a blast, much like the fun it seems that you are have these days.

 

I'm signing off - rest well.

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-13-2014, 03:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
mc2edHey -wrote.

I almost missed your reply - Thank you for it.

I must say that you are knee deep in the hoopla now! I have read a good number of Arny's posts and it seems like you have found a safe mentor.

Funny you mention that I was foolish enough to get into a protracted debate with Arny and some others here about lossless vs lossy encodes ,the thing is the more I read the more the science started to make sense eek.gif
due in no small part to Arny's persistence. ( I was way out of my depth in that discussion) By the time I started figuring out I had much to learn and the more I learned I realized Arny probably forgot more than I will ever know on these subjects!
I've learned a lot reading Arny's and other posts here at AVS.

Best regards
67jason likes this.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 05-13-2014, 04:05 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post


Funny you mention that I was foolish enough to get into a protracted debate with Arny and some others here about lossless vs lossy encodes ,the thing is the more I read the more the science started to make sense eek.gif
due in no small part to Arny's persistence. By the time I started figuring out I had much to learn and the more I learned I realized Arny forgot more than I will ever know on these subjects!
I've learned a lot reading Arny's and other posts here at AVS.

Best regards


Hey tubetwister!

 

Who said what to who?@#$!

 

You misread / understood my statements; I didn't say any such thing(s), please have another read...

 

My statement about Arny was complementary (just like yours)..., are you confused as to the meaning of the word hoopla, in the context in which is in tended? It was used to suggest that you are greatly caught up in the excitement of your surroundings and situation (which you yourself have depicted); it was used in a positive manor. Not to intimate foolishness or anything protracted...

 

I never used the word foolish, or its equivalent, nor did I intimate any other negatives.

 

Cheers.

mc2ed is offline  
Old 05-13-2014, 04:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
I never used the word foolish, or its equivalent, nor did I intimate any other negatives.

Cheers.

Oh no...... everything is perfectly fine I understood what you meant and how you meant it. it's all good biggrin.gif
Yes the hoopla surrounding audio file format /resolution etc. discussion is always entertaining .

What I meant is I was foolish (at the time) taking the opposite side of Arny in the lossles-vs lossy argument with me not knowing enough about the subject to begin with and otherwise at the same time not knowing his background and considerable expertise either (won't make that mistake again ! ) At least I've since learned enough to better understand the subject . I still learn a lot from Arny's posts at least what I can understand anyway. My 40+ yr career experience is in the automotive industry /corporate area far removed from AV science I'm a rookie here.

OTOH if you want to talk about global supply chains ,acquisitions and mergers, product life cycles ,cost amortization ,product liability, manufacturing and cost of goods/sales ,and profits,retail management, that's more up my alley
it's cool

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 05-13-2014, 05:08 PM
 
mc2ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post


Oh no...... everything is perfectly fine I understood what you meant and how you meant it. it's all good biggrin.gif
Yes the hoopla surrounding audio file format /resolution etc. discussion is always entertaining .

What I meant is I was foolish (at the time) taking the opposite side of Arny in the lossles-vs lossy argument with me not knowing enough about the subject to begin with and otherwise at the same time not knowing his background and considerable expertise either (won't make that mistake again ! ) At least I've since learned enough to better understand the subject . I still learn a lot from Arny's posts at least what I can understand anyway. My 40+ yr career experience is in the automotive industry /corporate area far removed from AV science I'm a rookie here.

OTOH if you want to talk about global supply chains ,acquisitions and mergers, product life cycles ,cost amortization ,product liability, manufacturing and cost of goods/sales ,and profits,retail management, that's more up my alley
it's cool


I love it! reciprocal miscommunications in a chartroom, if you will! Who thought such a thing possible - LOL:)!

 

Thanks for clearing things up, I was feeling like crap!

 

Cool-Cool!

mc2ed is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off