Originally Posted by arnyk
More evidence that denial isn't just a river in Egypt. The above statement fails on grounds that have been discussed here many times before which is proof by authority. History has shown any number of well-known, highly regarded people who have supported ideas that we now know to be completely false.
Good morning Arny
. Your posts often put a smile on my face and for that, I thank you.
What I quoted is not an "idea." They are not saying earth is round when folks thought it was flat. They are making an observation based on hundreds of years of combined experience in the audio field. That observation very much matches the only data we have on hand: that of Paul Miller and mine.
You yourself unfortunately have no data to share. Your case is based on "I know audio science and these distortions are not audible." Well, they know audio science a 100 times more than you and I combined
. Perhaps you don't know these people. So please allow me to talk more about their backgrounds.
I have already spoken about JJ. Here is what you had to say about him in another thread here:
Originally Posted by arnyk
One of the posters at the Hydrogen Audio forum who commented is actually James Johnson, the Bell Labs researcher who was one of the inventors of MP3 and recently retired as head scientist of DBX. http://home.comcast.net/~retired_old_jj He's a walking encyclopedia of these things and if he didn't recognize it, I don't know who would.
Some of what you attribute to him is incorrect but overall assessment is quite correct. I guarantee you that he will lose you on the second sentence on any topic related to audio
. I have talked to JJ about HDMI audio and he says idiots designed it. I trust you have not had any interactions with him on the topic at hand (HDMI).
Here are the bios of a couple of other people that you may not be familiar with:
McKinnie holds a Ph.D. from the University of Surrey (U.K.), where his research at the Institute of Sound Recording focused on the influence of spatial envelopment and localization accuracy on the perceived sound quality of surround-sound playback systems.
McKinnie received his master of music degree in sound recording from McGill University, where he engaged in research on techniques for low-bit-rate audio critical listening tests. While at McGill, he assisted in the selection of critical listening materials for the Electronic Industries Association/National Radio Standards Committee, which were used to assess the sound quality of HD radio. This research was carried out at Canada's Communications Research Centre in Ottawa.
He received his bachelor of arts degree in music from Case Western Reserve University.
Since 1994, McKinnie has been the director of live sound operations at Tanglewood, the summer home of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, where he has worked with artists as diverse as James Taylor, Diana Krall, The Boston Pops, the Kalichstein-Laredo-Robinson Trio and Train. He also was the audio engineer for the Cleveland Institute of Music and a staff engineer at Cleveland's Commercial Recording Studios.
His recording credits include compact discs for Telarc and McGill Records, radio production and demonstration recordings for the BBC, as well as countless other radio broadcasts and independent releases.
Dr Jan Berg is an associate professor in audio technology at Luleå University of Technology, Sweden, where he carries out research and education on different aspects of audio production with special focus on sound quality evaluation. In his dissertation (2002) Dr Berg studied evaluation of spatial quality in multichannel systems. Dr Berg’s research activities include collaboration with both academia and industry, e.g. in codec testing, loudness and development of listening tests. Prior to his research work, Dr Berg worked for more than a decade at Swedish Radio as both recording engineer and maintenance engineer. In 2006, Dr Berg chaired Sweden’s first AES international conference, the AES 28th, on Audio Technology in the Future – Surround and Beyond, taking place in Piteå, Sweden. This was followed in 2010 by the 38th conference on sound quality evaluation. For his work Dr Berg received the Board of Governors Award on two separate occasions. Dr Berg is also active within the AES as a reviewer for the Journal in addition to other duties. He previously held the position as Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences at Luleå University of Technology.
AES Member Profile
Job Title: President
Company: RBS Consultants
Status: Life Fellow
Member since: 1965
AES Position: Vice-Chair Technical Council
AES Committees: Technical Council, Journal Reviewers
Technical Committees: Automotive Audio, Hearing and Hearing Loss Prevention, High Resolution Audio, Microphones and Applications, Perception and Subjective Evaluation of Audio Signals, Spatial Audio, Technical Council
Standards Committees: SC-04-04 (Microphone Measurement and Characterization), SC-04-04-D (Project AES-X42)
Bob has been active in a number of professional organizations within the audio and hearing industries. He is a Fellow and Past President of the International Audio Engineering Society, where he received the Publications Award in 1977, the Board of Governors Award in 1990 and the Bronze Metal in 2013.
He currently serves as a vice-chair of the AES Technical Council, and is chair of the AES Technical Committee on Hearing and Hearing Loss Prevention. Bob is a member the American Auditory Society as well as the American National Standards Institute S3WG48 working group on hearing-aid measurements.
In these forums we create artificial bubbles that have rules that don't have any association with reality. In real life, people's qualifications matter and matter greatly. Fact that someone has created stupid arguments like "appeal from authority" doesn't mean we become stupid just the same and follow them. You know that Arny.
Let's look at our silly rules and how it falls flat on its face. Both of the two experts above are AES Journal reviewers. Don't we put immense value on "peer reviewed" papers? Well, these are the "peers" that did the reviewing. All of a sudden we don't care what these people have to say??? Worse yet, we put our opinion ahead of theirs?
No, this is not proof by authority. It is reporting on informed opinions from a broad group of experts on the status of HDMI when it comes to jitter and audibility.
You keep talking masking this, and masking that. Do you think masking is an unknown concept to JJ? How about the other two experts above? They got through their education, professional work, and that of AES, and don't know who Zwicker is and what is masked and isn't?
Of course they know masking and rest of science of psychoacoustics. Not only from academic point of view of reading the text but through careful listening tests that gives them a first hand feel for what it really means.
And what is our counter to their combined experience? A cut and past of picture or two we have post from Zwicker's book. Heck, we don't even have the book. Said pictures of masking have come from Google Docs page snapshots or tidbits online as we seem to be too cheap to even buy the book we show as bible of our argument.
As if that was not enough, we go on to quote the HDMI wiki as our one and only source of knowledge about this interface! So let's get real and not keep pretending that we are that stupid.
These are experts in the field and have published an opinion under the guise of audio engineering society. That matters and matters a lot no matter how we try to spin it using our made up online rules.
Originally Posted by arnyk
It also fails on the grounds that strong assertion cannot make vague statements into specific claims.
Sorry but no. It is not vague at all. They explain the source of the problem specifically and provide their combined opinion as to whether it is or is not an audible problem. Just because we don't like what they are saying we can't claim "it is vague."
Originally Posted by arnyk
I fear for the future credibility of anybody who continues to rest their reputation on obviously fallacious arguments.
And I shed a tear for anyone who in real life dismisses the opinion of world class researchers and practicing professionals in some field and instead, believes what random dudes on an internet forum are saying based on tidbits they have read online.
That is the real crime Arny. We talk about believing in "science" yet the first thing we do is dismiss our scientists. We hold the Meyer and Moran paper up high because it is "peer reviewed" and then turn around and claim the people who may have reviewed it are not qualified to make a simple statement about audio fidelity?
Let's not be partisan all the time. Be interested in the science of audio. Not some religion around it that causes you to deny useful information in front of us just because we hold some extreme position in this field that may be invalidated this way.