Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2920 Old 06-16-2014, 03:00 PM
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[quote=Chu Gai;24999410]
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm;24997770...
Julian Dunn cited the Dolby paper.


That's the death of him.
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post #632 of 2920 Old 06-16-2014, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
So, none of these members, least of all as a technical group committee are infallible and must be accepted as beyond reproach???
If the pope came here and swore on a bible that he is a Christian, you all going to complain that he is appealing to authority.

This is really simple. Either you are interested in learning about audio or not. If you are interested in learning about audio, then you do need to listen to experts who have knowledge, professional experience and specific data that you don't have. That is how it works in real life. I am not a doctor. If a group of well known and respected doctors made a specific recommendation, I don't run to the local forum and listen to some random dude without any of those qualifications telling otherwise.

To be clear, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with disagreeing with such authorities. Such disagreement however, must be in the form of knowledge you have that they don't, data that you have that they don't, or industry position you have that they don't. There is not one person arguing with me that has any of this. Objecting still with these debating tactics should be reserved when you are arguing with someone who has not reached the age of 15. That is not how the real world works and should not be the way this place works if we are going to have a constructive and professional discussion.

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I sat in on such a committee once as a visitor and didn't get that feeling at all. Like any other committee, back and forth of ideas and more or less come to some agreement, regardless of facts in evidence.
That's like saying you had a bad meal at a mexican taco stand and now think all restaurant food is bad. .

This is not some homeowners association where they are talking about when to mow the grass in their development. This is the Audio Engineering Society. When you put your name on something as specific as what I quoted, you better have confidence that you are on the side of right. 'Cause if you are not, someone or many people are going to write in and correct you. And that will follow you well beyond the confines of AES.

If you have such little faith in the work of AES, then you should not put any value on anything else published by them. You can't be a part-time vegetarian and have steaks for lunch every day.
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Last edited by amirm; 06-16-2014 at 07:49 PM.
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post #633 of 2920 Old 06-16-2014, 08:04 PM
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No one ever argues facts with you amirm, you foundered a company that sells expensive products, and will forever be known as the person who ties peoples hands behind their backs, and forces them spend more money then they needed too.

It just goes to show the nature of the people in this forum, when they cannot judge your content, solely on the content you post, and instead, let pre-concieved notions about your intentions, cloud their own judgements.

Argumenting, for argument sake!

Last edited by Audionut11; 06-16-2014 at 08:13 PM.
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post #634 of 2920 Old 06-16-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
...you foundered a company....
Uh oh!
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post #635 of 2920 Old 06-16-2014, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
No one ever argues facts with you amirm, you foundered a company that sells expensive products, and will forever be known as the person who ties peoples hands behind their backs, and forces them spend more money then they needed too.
You said it. BTW, some schmuck recorded us tying one of our customers and put it on youtube! Here it is:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
It just goes to show the nature of the people in this forum, when they cannot judge your content, solely on the content you post, and instead, let pre-concieved notions about your intentions, cloud their own judgements.

Argumenting, for argument sake!
Right on my friend!

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post #636 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
If the pope came here and swore on a bible that he is a Christian, you all going to complain that he is appealing to authority.
That's not how Christianity works. Argument dismissed on the grounds that it is not reasonable in the context that it appealed to.
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post #637 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk
It's an audiophile myth that phase noise isn't phase noise when it occurs in digital system. By enforcing invalid and false distinctions, people are mislead into believing that analog systems are somehow immune to jitter, when in fact they are generally more severely afflicted by jitter than digital systems.
And there you go again, "analog jitter".
I did not use the phrase analog jitter. How unfair is it to make up words and criticising me for saying the words that you made up?

Jitter is jitter is FM distortion - if it does the same thing to the signal in both the analog domain and the digital domain, it has the same audible consequences.

.06% wow and flutter from Amir's Otari MX 5050 analog tape recorder is the same as 0.6 milliseconds of jitter is the same as 600 microseconds of jitter is the same as 600,000 nanoseconds of jitter is the same as 600,000,000 picoseconds of jitter.

I continue to be amazed about how much conference bandwidth Amir has chewed up hooting and hoollering about 600 picoseconds of unweighted jitter in an AVR while giving high praise to an analog tape machine with 600,000,000 picoseconds of weighted jitter. The weighting that is part of the spec on the MX 5050 means that the actual unweighted jitter in that Otari MX 5050 is even more than 600,000,000 picoseconds of jitter.

Last edited by arnyk; 06-17-2014 at 03:43 AM.
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post #638 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut11 View Post
No one ever argues facts with you amirm, you foundered a company that sells expensive products, and will forever be known as the person who ties peoples hands behind their backs, and forces them spend more money then they needed too.

It just goes to show the nature of the people in this forum, when they cannot judge your content, solely on the content you post, and instead, let pre-concieved notions about your intentions, cloud their own judgements.

Argumenting, for argument sake!
Fact: Amir has presented no supporting DBT to prove the levels of jitter he claims as examples of "poor engineering" are audible.
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post #639 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Fact: Amir has presented no supporting DBT to prove the levels of jitter he claims as examples of "poor engineering" are audible.
Fact, were Amir really interested in doing such a thing, he need only download a few files from:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0ov07gu5a...o9G4MUCm_6kMPa

and run Foobar2000 and listen for a few minutes, more or less.

I guarantee positive results for the training files, but as the jitter is reduced to levels closer to actual levels in audio gear, it may just disappear from perceptibility. It is this possiblity and I might add even just the possibility that raises paralyzing fear in the hearts of many. It is easy to predict that I will remain the only person who has auditioned them.
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post #640 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 07:02 AM
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There's a lot of things I get from this thread. I get that HDMI generally gives you significantly worse jitter. I get that smart people like JJ, Melchior, and others say jitter CAN cause audible problems. I get that odds are if you're using HDMI your probably watching some kind of video. I get that if you just knock HDMI jitter down by a factor of a hundred or so, probably all these people would be quite satisfied.

What I don't get is whether this is more of a concern when dealing with all that's involved in the making of a movie or the consumer playing the movie? After all, there's an awful lot of steps in the making of a movie. Maybe not so much if you're doing a POV adult film.

I get that Amir found a receiver whose jitter spectrum varies under the same measurement conditions. I don't get if this is symptomatic of that model or represents a device that has a problem a sample size of one doesn't allow one to confidently extrapolate or make reaching pronouncements.

I get that JA provides wideband measurements of stuff because he can. I get that he says with Class D amps, because of of some nasties in the ultrasonic range can have audible effects with something like preamps who don't measure so well wideband. What I don't get or maybe would like to see is for JA to one day take a combination that he feels would unambiguously illustrate that point and publish the results. That'd be cool even single blind.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #641 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I did not use the phrase analog jitter. How unfair is it to make up words and criticising me for saying the words that you made up?

Glad to hear we are in agreement that "analog jitter" is a made up word. However, I believe you are still a bit confused who has been using it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Are you under the false impression that time offsets are not produced by analog jitter?

I would just like for people to try their best to use correct terminology. It gets less confusing that way.
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post #642 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
This is really simple. Either you are interested in learning about audio or not.
I am, so please tell me, is jitter difference between HDMI and S/PDIF audible when playing music?
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post #643 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
I am, so please tell me, is jitter difference between HDMI and S/PDIF audible when playing music?
If you are interested in learning about this topic, then you should start by listening to Arny's test files and report back your results. Poor guy has post them half a dozen times and no one has taken him up on it. Himself included!

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post #644 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
...

If you have such little faith in the work of AES, then you should not put any value on anything else published by them. You can't be a part-time vegetarian and have steaks for lunch every day.
Are you equating a technical committee meeting discussions with that of a peer reviewed JAES article? That is what you are saying.
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post #645 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
If you are interested in learning about this topic, then you should start by listening to Arny's test files and report back your results. Poor guy has post them half a dozen times and no one has taken him up on it. Himself included!
You are the one that's been praising the performance of S/PDIF over HDMI in jitter numbers. The onus is on you to provide the evidence of audible benefits of S/PDIF. So, do you have any?
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post #646 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 12:00 PM
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You may not be able to "hear" jitter, but if someone tells you it exists... Believe it!! Just be sure to look in your closet and under the bed before you go to sleep at night.
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post #647 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
You are the one that's been praising the performance of S/PDIF over HDMI in jitter numbers. The onus is on you to provide the evidence of audible benefits of S/PDIF. So, do you have any?
Oh? I thought you claimed your intention was to learn. I showed you how to learn. Did you download Arny's files or was it not worth your time to do that?

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post #648 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Are you equating a technical committee meeting discussions with that of a peer reviewed JAES article? That is what you are saying.
I am happy to once again give my opinion on that. But it wasn't accepted the other N times I explained it so for now, let's see what you are saying. I write a paper and it gets published in the Journal. Please explain what it means to have that stamp. Please be specific and provide references for your information.

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post #649 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I am happy to once again give my opinion on that. But it wasn't accepted the other N times I explained it so for now, let's see what you are saying. I write a paper and it gets published in the Journal. Please explain what it means to have that stamp. Please be specific and provide references for your information.
You are not addressing what I asked: are you equating a technical committee discussion with a peer reviewed paper?
This has nothing to do with your answer.
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If HDMI is so bad for audio... should "we" also be concerned with the video too?
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post #651 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Oh? I thought you claimed your intention was to learn. I showed you how to learn. Did you download Arny's files or was it not worth your time to do that?
Translation: HDMI and S/PDIF jitter difference isn't big enough to be audible and you already know it but you won't acknowledge it due to the concerns about the sales of S/PDIF products your store carries.
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post #652 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
If you are interested in learning about this topic, then you should start by listening to Arny's test files and report back your results. Poor guy has post them half a dozen times and no one has taken him up on it. Himself included!
False claim, but just one of many. :-(
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post #653 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
False claim, but just one of many. :-(
My apologies Arny. Would you please post your Foobar results then?

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post #654 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
Translation: HDMI and S/PDIF jitter difference isn't big enough to be audible and you already know it but you won't acknowledge it due to the concerns about the sales of S/PDIF products your store carries.
My translation is that you don't want to learn, and you put no value on Arny's test. Live with that.

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post #655 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Oh? I thought you claimed your intention was to learn. I showed you how to learn.
Unfortunately, one of the lessons that is possible to learn around here is that 600 ps of jitter is a serious problem if it is produced by an AVR, but that 600,000,000 ps of jitter is apparently not a problem if it is produced by Amir's prized Otari tape recorder. How crazy is that? ;-)
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post #656 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
My translation is that you don't want to learn, and you put no value on Arny's test. Live with that.
If my jitter test is so valuable why have you not done it?

I have.
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post #657 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
You are not addressing what I asked: are you equating a technical committee discussion with a peer reviewed paper?
This has nothing to do with your answer.
As I said, I have repeatedly stated my position on both of those in this very thread whereas you have not at all.

I will go ahead and answer part of the question I asked you. Here are the official notes on review process for JAES:

Review

Manuscripts are reviewed anonymously by members of the review board. After the reviewers' analysis and recommendation to the editors, the author is advised of either acceptance or rejection. On the basis of the reviewers' comments, the editor may request that the author make certain revisions which will allow the paper to be accepted for publication.

Per-page Fee

Once an article is accepted for publication, page charges will apply for printing as follows. No charge up to 8 pages; pp. 9-12, $50 per page; p. 13 and above, $100 per page.

Open Access
The author may obtain an open-access licence for their paper by paying a specific open-access fee. The policy is explained in detail on our Open Access website.

Color Graphics

For a fee of $500 per article (above the normal page fee), authors can choose to include color graphics files in articles published in the printed Journal.


Did you know all of this and what does it mean to you?

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War! Huh... good God y'all.
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothin'..... say it again.
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post #659 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
As I said, I have repeatedly stated my position on both of those in this very thread whereas you have not at all.

I will go ahead and answer part of the question I asked you. Here are the official notes on review process for JAES:

Review

Manuscripts are reviewed anonymously by members of the review board. After the reviewers' analysis and recommendation to the editors, the author is advised of either acceptance or rejection. On the basis of the reviewers' comments, the editor may request that the author make certain revisions which will allow the paper to be accepted for publication.

Per-page Fee

Once an article is accepted for publication, page charges will apply for printing as follows. No charge up to 8 pages; pp. 9-12, $50 per page; p. 13 and above, $100 per page.

Open Access
The author may obtain an open-access licence for their paper by paying a specific open-access fee. The policy is explained in detail on our Open Access website.

Color Graphics

For a fee of $500 per article (above the normal page fee), authors can choose to include color graphics files in articles published in the printed Journal.

Did you know all of this and what does it mean to you?
Just forget it. Obviously we are not connecting.
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post #660 of 2920 Old 06-17-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
My apologies Arny. Would you please post your Foobar results then?
Too easy!

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/17 16:52:30

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\30 Hz jitter severe level .3.wav

16:52:30 : Test started.
16:52:54 : 01/01 50.0%
16:53:26 : 02/02 25.0%
16:53:44 : 03/03 12.5%
16:54:03 : 04/04 6.3%
16:54:19 : 05/05 3.1%
16:54:30 : 06/06 1.6%
16:54:45 : 07/07 0.8%
16:54:54 : 08/08 0.4%
16:55:12 : 09/09 0.2%
16:55:41 : 10/10 0.1%
16:55:57 : 11/11 0.0%
16:56:07 : 12/12 0.0%
16:56:21 : 13/13 0.0%
16:56:29 : 14/14 0.0%
16:56:39 : 15/15 0.0%
16:56:48 : 16/16 0.0%
17:10:16 : 17/17 0.0%
17:11:02 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 17/17 (0.0%)
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