Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 11:27 AM
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Is this the Hi-Rez Audio Test thread or.... let's try to discredit Arny thread?
Pathetic. Especially from "professionals". Let's try to set a good example for the children.
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post #692 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Not nonsense at all, Mr. Krueger. You did what you have accused others of doing, ie, selectively quoting only the text that supported your own opinion. Yes, you included the link to the original, but so did those that you have criticized. If you insist that my criticism is invalid, then by your own argument you must admit that the criticisms you made of others are also invalid.
The problem is John that all that I left out was your unsupported assertions about persons who aren't around to defend themselves. I backed my comments up with a quote from Peter W. Mitchell who is your employee. You backed yourself up with another quote from you! What I provided to the discussion was new information. What I left out was redundant information.

John I'll grant you that when it comes to proof by assertion, and patting yourself on your own back, you have few peers!
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post #693 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I showed that thad inverted hey amplitudes that you could not explain.
That's a false claim, as I explained why the files were inverted and why that really didn't matter.

To repeat what I said, the inversion was an unintended side effect of the means used to add the jitter. It made no audible difference.

It was easy enough to make the inverted audio go away without affecting the outcome of the test. I went the extra mile to address the belly-aching.

Thing is Amir, there's no evidence that you've actually listened to any of the files, before or after the changes. I frankly don't expect you to ever do so because the easily predictable outcome is very likely not exactly supportive of your many overblown claims about the alleged problematical nature of HDMI jitter.

Here are some time stamps from ABX runs by a person who scored perfectly:

Test 1: 2014/06/18 16:34:27

Test 2: 2014/06/18 16:40:58

A whopping 6 and a half minutes per test!
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post #694 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Let's try to set a good example for the children.
Let the children play ... in the mud
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post #695 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
You do realize that what you are asking them to do is their own marketing suicide.
So in the end, it is all about the $$$$$.

Last edited by CharlesJ; 06-18-2014 at 01:47 PM.
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post #696 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Is this the Hi-Rez Audio Test thread or.... let's try to discredit Arny thread?
Pathetic. Especially from "professionals". Let's try to set a good example for the children.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #697 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 02:36 PM
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Arny, jitter values are usually expressed in seconds (ns, ps etc.). Can you give the jitter levels of your 5 testfiles ?
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post #698 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Is this the Hi-Rez Audio Test thread or.... let's try to discredit Arny thread?
Pathetic. Especially from "professionals".
I am not sure why you would say this. Mr. Krueger has expressed some insulting statements about me and about others with whom he is arguing, as have some other other posters. By contrast, while I am criticizing some Mr. Krueger's statements and arguing with him about statements that he has made that are false, I have taken care to address what Mr. Krueger has written, not to demean the man himself.

Or are you suggesting that merely to point out logical errors and misstatements of fact in Mr. Krueger's postings is tantamount to a personal attack and is thus unprofessional? With respect, that seems a stretch.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
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post #699 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees de Visser View Post
Arny, jitter values are usually expressed in seconds (ns, ps etc.). Can you give the jitter levels of your 5 testfiles ?
Yes, of course. I can also provide a spectral analysis of the jitter each creates which is actually far more relevant to audibility. But I don't want to bias potential listeners. When Amir completes properly ABXing the whole sequence of files, I will reveal that data. I expect that he will be the last to do so of the AVS regulars.

I might add that the files themselves contain a 1 KHz test tone that reveals that information pretty clearly and quickly if one understands jitter.

Last edited by arnyk; 06-18-2014 at 04:16 PM.
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post #700 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I am not sure why you would say this. Mr. Krueger has expressed some insulting statements about me and about others with whom he is arguing, as have some other other posters.
You have never ever understood this John, but many people think you are more professional than I. They expect you to behave accordingly. You have been told by many people over many years that you are not achieving that goal. But, you are smarter than them.

Quote:
By contrast, while I am criticizing some Mr. Krueger's statements and arguing with him about statements that he has made that are false, I have taken care to address what Mr. Krueger has written, not to demean the man himself.
John, the interesting thing is your hyper-narrow definition of true and false. For example I've been stringing you along for days as you claim repeatedly that my account of Holt's situation at High Fidelity is false even though your own employees, writing for your own magazine have published the same facts that I gave. You've done similar things many times over the many years we conferenced on rec.audio.opinion, rec.audio.high-end, and here at AVS. You desperately need for me to be wrong, which has affected your own credibility.

Quote:
Or are you suggesting that merely to point out logical errors and misstatements of fact
...many of which exist only in your mind and perhaps like-minded people such as Michael Fremer.

Quote:
in Mr. Krueger's postings is tantamount to a personal attack and is thus unprofessional? With respect, that seems a stretch.
Its like you never stretch anything, John?

LOL!
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post #701 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
So in the end, it is all about the $$$$$.

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post #702 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I am not sure why you would say this. Mr. Krueger has expressed some insulting statements about me and about others with whom he is arguing, as have some other other posters. By contrast, while I am criticizing some Mr. Krueger's statements and arguing with him about statements that he has made that are false, I have taken care to address what Mr. Krueger has written, not to demean the man himself.

Or are you suggesting that merely to point out logical errors and misstatements of fact in Mr. Krueger's postings is tantamount to a personal attack and is thus unprofessional? With respect, that seems a stretch.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
So, what does it really mean when a person says with respect or more commonly, with all due respect? Let us turn to the Urban Dictionary and fnd out just how much respect there is.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...0due%20respect

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #703 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
So, what does it really mean when a person says with respect or more commonly, with all due respect? Let us turn to the Urban Dictionary and fnd out just how much respect there is.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...0due%20respect
Lol. You looked for the most negative connotation. Here is another and more widely accepted meaning. Notice it does not imply insult. Only disagreement.

From englishforums.con
AlpheccaStars:
Roughly translated, it means "pardon me". It is used to introduce your contrary opinion that the other person may find a bit offensive.

Bob, with all due respect, I disagree with you.
Then with all due respect, sir, why must I be questioned about my emotional position regarding my brother?
With all due respect to the jurors, the verdict is wrong and unfair.
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post #704 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 06:39 PM
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From Cambridge dictionaries online

› used to express polite disagreement in a formal situation:
With all due respect, Minister, I cannot agree with your last statement.
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post #705 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 06:50 PM
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That only works in The Godfather. With all due respect of course.
krabapple and hevi like this.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #706 of 2920 Old 06-18-2014, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Amir, seeing as how Arny is making efforts to bend, albeit not as much as this talented dancer with not only posting his results along with files wrt jitter, how's about you bend a bit and talk about how you did on the files?
Sure, would be my pleasure. Here you go:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:39:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz Severe Jitter 0.05.flac

16:39:16 : Test started.
16:39:52 : 01/01 50.0%
16:40:26 : 02/02 25.0%
16:40:38 : 03/03 12.5%
16:40:48 : 04/04 6.3%
16:40:58 : 05/05 3.1%
16:41:07 : 06/06 1.6%
16:41:24 : 07/07 0.8%
16:41:32 : 08/08 0.4%
16:41:51 : 09/09 0.2%
16:42:04 : 10/10 0.1%
16:42:12 : 11/11 0.0%
16:42:21 : 12/12 0.0%
16:42:43 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=============
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:33:19

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz max jitter 0.1.flac
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav

16:33:19 : Test started.
16:34:25 : 01/01 50.0%
16:34:38 : 02/02 25.0%
16:34:58 : 03/03 12.5%
16:35:16 : 04/04 6.3%
16:35:26 : 05/05 3.1%
16:35:41 : 06/06 1.6%
16:35:54 : 07/07 0.8%
16:36:34 : 08/08 0.4%
16:36:44 : 09/09 0.2%
16:36:54 : 10/10 0.1%
16:37:03 : 11/11 0.0%
16:37:13 : 12/12 0.0%
16:38:05 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

============

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:44:39

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz jitter strong level .025.flac

16:44:39 : Test started.
16:45:05 : 01/01 50.0%
16:45:15 : 02/02 25.0%
16:45:28 : 03/03 12.5%
16:45:36 : 04/04 6.3%
16:45:54 : 05/05 3.1%
16:46:17 : 06/06 1.6%
16:46:29 : 07/07 0.8%
16:46:45 : 08/08 0.4%
16:46:55 : 09/09 0.2%
16:47:05 : 10/10 0.1%
16:47:19 : 11/11 0.0%
16:47:33 : 12/12 0.0%
16:47:36 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=====

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 19:04:40

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz noticable jitter 0.0125.flac

19:04:40 : Test started.
19:05:27 : 01/01 50.0%
19:05:54 : 02/02 25.0%
19:06:19 : 03/03 12.5%
19:06:35 : 04/04 6.3%
19:06:57 : 05/05 3.1%
19:07:16 : 06/06 1.6%
19:07:43 : 07/07 0.8%
19:08:15 : 08/08 0.4%
19:08:37 : 09/09 0.2%
19:09:05 : 10/10 0.1%
19:09:30 : 11/11 0.0%
19:10:05 : 12/12 0.0%
19:10:09 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

BTW, Foobar ABX tool is fairly lousy when it comes to testing for smaller differences. It has a bunch of usability issues that make it harder than it should be to find the critical segments.

Good job on the last one Arny . It took fair bit of concentration to get that one.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

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post #707 of 2920 Old 06-19-2014, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Sure, would be my pleasure. Here you go:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:39:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz Severe Jitter 0.05.flac

16:39:16 : Test started.
16:39:52 : 01/01 50.0%
16:40:26 : 02/02 25.0%
16:40:38 : 03/03 12.5%
16:40:48 : 04/04 6.3%
16:40:58 : 05/05 3.1%
16:41:07 : 06/06 1.6%
16:41:24 : 07/07 0.8%
16:41:32 : 08/08 0.4%
16:41:51 : 09/09 0.2%
16:42:04 : 10/10 0.1%
16:42:12 : 11/11 0.0%
16:42:21 : 12/12 0.0%
16:42:43 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=============
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:33:19

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz max jitter 0.1.flac
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav

16:33:19 : Test started.
16:34:25 : 01/01 50.0%
16:34:38 : 02/02 25.0%
16:34:58 : 03/03 12.5%
16:35:16 : 04/04 6.3%
16:35:26 : 05/05 3.1%
16:35:41 : 06/06 1.6%
16:35:54 : 07/07 0.8%
16:36:34 : 08/08 0.4%
16:36:44 : 09/09 0.2%
16:36:54 : 10/10 0.1%
16:37:03 : 11/11 0.0%
16:37:13 : 12/12 0.0%
16:38:05 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

============

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:44:39

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz jitter strong level .025.flac

16:44:39 : Test started.
16:45:05 : 01/01 50.0%
16:45:15 : 02/02 25.0%
16:45:28 : 03/03 12.5%
16:45:36 : 04/04 6.3%
16:45:54 : 05/05 3.1%
16:46:17 : 06/06 1.6%
16:46:29 : 07/07 0.8%
16:46:45 : 08/08 0.4%
16:46:55 : 09/09 0.2%
16:47:05 : 10/10 0.1%
16:47:19 : 11/11 0.0%
16:47:33 : 12/12 0.0%
16:47:36 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=====

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 19:04:40

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz noticable jitter 0.0125.flac

19:04:40 : Test started.
19:05:27 : 01/01 50.0%
19:05:54 : 02/02 25.0%
19:06:19 : 03/03 12.5%
19:06:35 : 04/04 6.3%
19:06:57 : 05/05 3.1%
19:07:16 : 06/06 1.6%
19:07:43 : 07/07 0.8%
19:08:15 : 08/08 0.4%
19:08:37 : 09/09 0.2%
19:09:05 : 10/10 0.1%
19:09:30 : 11/11 0.0%
19:10:05 : 12/12 0.0%
19:10:09 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

BTW, Foobar ABX tool is fairly lousy when it comes to testing for smaller differences. It has a bunch of usability issues that make it harder than it should be to find the critical segments.
IME there is no perfect ABX comparator, especially when people fail to meet their own goals for hearing differences. ;-)

Quote:
Good job on the last one Arny . It took fair bit of concentration to get that one.
Unfortunately, the last file that you tried is not the last one that is available online.

Did you simply overlook the "30 Hz jitter marginal level .00625" file or are you conceding that it would be impossible for you?

There are additional files that are more difficult where it came from... ;-)
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post #708 of 2920 Old 06-19-2014, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Sure, would be my pleasure. Here you go:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:39:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz Severe Jitter 0.05.flac

16:39:16 : Test started.
16:39:52 : 01/01 50.0%
16:40:26 : 02/02 25.0%
16:40:38 : 03/03 12.5%
16:40:48 : 04/04 6.3%
16:40:58 : 05/05 3.1%
16:41:07 : 06/06 1.6%
16:41:24 : 07/07 0.8%
16:41:32 : 08/08 0.4%
16:41:51 : 09/09 0.2%
16:42:04 : 10/10 0.1%
16:42:12 : 11/11 0.0%
16:42:21 : 12/12 0.0%
16:42:43 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=============
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:33:19

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz max jitter 0.1.flac
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav

16:33:19 : Test started.
16:34:25 : 01/01 50.0%
16:34:38 : 02/02 25.0%
16:34:58 : 03/03 12.5%
16:35:16 : 04/04 6.3%
16:35:26 : 05/05 3.1%
16:35:41 : 06/06 1.6%
16:35:54 : 07/07 0.8%
16:36:34 : 08/08 0.4%
16:36:44 : 09/09 0.2%
16:36:54 : 10/10 0.1%
16:37:03 : 11/11 0.0%
16:37:13 : 12/12 0.0%
16:38:05 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

============

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:44:39

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz jitter strong level .025.flac

16:44:39 : Test started.
16:45:05 : 01/01 50.0%
16:45:15 : 02/02 25.0%
16:45:28 : 03/03 12.5%
16:45:36 : 04/04 6.3%
16:45:54 : 05/05 3.1%
16:46:17 : 06/06 1.6%
16:46:29 : 07/07 0.8%
16:46:45 : 08/08 0.4%
16:46:55 : 09/09 0.2%
16:47:05 : 10/10 0.1%
16:47:19 : 11/11 0.0%
16:47:33 : 12/12 0.0%
16:47:36 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=====

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 19:04:40

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz noticable jitter 0.0125.flac

19:04:40 : Test started.
19:05:27 : 01/01 50.0%
19:05:54 : 02/02 25.0%
19:06:19 : 03/03 12.5%
19:06:35 : 04/04 6.3%
19:06:57 : 05/05 3.1%
19:07:16 : 06/06 1.6%
19:07:43 : 07/07 0.8%
19:08:15 : 08/08 0.4%
19:08:37 : 09/09 0.2%
19:09:05 : 10/10 0.1%
19:09:30 : 11/11 0.0%
19:10:05 : 12/12 0.0%
19:10:09 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

BTW, Foobar ABX tool is fairly lousy when it comes to testing for smaller differences. It has a bunch of usability issues that make it harder than it should be to find the critical segments.

Good job on the last one Arny . It took fair bit of concentration to get that one.
And how did you do with the 30 Hz jitter marginal level .00625.flac track?


Today using the Oppo 105D as usb dac it was a bit easier.
Yesterday using the PC soundcard that file became very difficult after only a couple of comparisons.
I think the no-jitter file suffered from the soundcards jitter. the Oppo as dac sounds much cleaner.


Not a perfect score. But I'm certain that I can hear a difference when able to concentrating harder.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/19 12:57:13
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\30 Hz jitter marginal level .00625.flac
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\no jitter.flac
12:57:13 : Test started.
12:58:05 : 01/01 50.0%
12:58:16 : 02/02 25.0%
12:58:27 : 03/03 12.5%
12:58:42 : 04/04 6.3%
12:58:51 : 05/05 3.1%
12:59:00 : 05/06 10.9%
12:59:14 : 05/07 22.7%
12:59:28 : 06/08 14.5%
12:59:48 : 07/09 9.0%
13:00:05 : 08/10 5.5%
13:00:25 : 09/11 3.3%
13:00:42 : 09/12 7.3%
13:00:57 : 10/13 4.6%
13:01:10 : 11/14 2.9%
13:01:31 : 12/15 1.8%
13:01:51 : 12/16 3.8%
13:02:08 : 12/17 7.2%
13:02:38 : 13/18 4.8%
13:02:47 : 14/19 3.2%
13:02:57 : 15/20 2.1%
13:03:05 : 16/21 1.3%
13:03:16 : 17/22 0.8%
13:03:24 : 18/23 0.5%
13:03:39 : 18/24 1.1%
13:03:47 : 18/25 2.2%
13:03:58 : 19/26 1.4%
13:04:15 : 19/27 2.6%
13:04:19 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 19/27 (2.6%)

Last edited by Frank Derks; 06-19-2014 at 04:18 AM.
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post #709 of 2920 Old 06-19-2014, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The new jitter listening test files can be downloaded from here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b35feharw...9KwuBTPbBa1JZa
Thank you or making these files available for download, Mr. Krueger. And thank you for starting each file with a 1kHz tone.

With the “No jitter” file, there are no sidebands visible, of course, and the noisefloor lies at the 16-bit level, ie, with bin values between -132 and -140dBFS. With the “Maximum” file, sidebands at 970 and 1030Hz are around 35dB below the 1kHz level, with sidebands at +/-60Hz and +/-90Hz visible at progressively lower levels. With the “Marginal, .00625” file, the primary sidebands lie around -55dB (see attached graph). With both these files, there is also a slight reduction in dynamic range evident, particularly above 10kHz, which is presumably due to the use of dither in your processing.

However, regarding using these files for listening tests to “jitter,” these spectra don’t resemble what I have found with any of the digital products I have measured over the years. I have never encountered a pair of strong sidebands at +/-30Hz. I have often encountered sidebands at +/-60, 120, and 180Hz, which are obviously power-supply related. (These are not necessarily due to jitter; they could also arise from insufficient power-supply rejection on the DAC chip’s voltage reference pin.) But spurious jitter tends to be much higher in frequency than 30Hz, hence much less susceptible to masking.

The primary modulation frequency of 30Hz is too high if you are trying to model the behavior of an LP player, where I have found the primary sidebands to lie at +/-8 to 12Hz, depending on the frequency of the tonearm effective mass/cartridge-suspension compliance . So I am not sure what you are trying to prove about jitter with these files. Any listening test results will not demonstrate the audibility or not of the jitter typically found in digital systems.

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File Type: jpg Krueger-Marginal-Jitter.jpg (84.3 KB, 86 views)
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.... Any listening test results will not demonstrate the audibility or not of the jitter typically found in digital systems.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

I consider the marginal level file at the threshold of audibility. It perfectly demonstrates that the much lower jitter levels encountered in the various digital interface formats will NOT be audible.
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Thank you or making these files available for download, Mr. Krueger. And thank you for starting each file with a 1kHz tone.

With the “No jitter” file, there are no sidebands visible, of course, and the noisefloor lies at the 16-bit level, ie, with bin values between -132 and -140dBFS. With the “Maximum” file, sidebands at 970 and 1030Hz are around 35dB below the 1kHz level, with sidebands at +/-60Hz and +/-90Hz visible at progressively lower levels. With the “Marginal, .00625” file, the primary sidebands lie around -55dB (see attached graph). With both these files, there is also a slight reduction in dynamic range evident, particularly above 10kHz, which is presumably due to the use of dither in your processing.

However, regarding using these files for listening tests to “jitter,” these spectra don’t resemble what I have found with any of the digital products I have measured over the years. I have never encountered a pair of strong sidebands at +/-30Hz.
The above analysis seems to be consistent with my own analysis of the files in question. Thanks for analyzing them and confirming my own measurements.

I have encountered jitter at 30 Hz on many occasions, and test results of that nature have been posted here by others from several sources many times.

Here's an example:

Link to this picture in context: Jitter




Quote:
I have often encountered sidebands at +/-60, 120, and 180Hz, which are obviously power-supply related. (These are not necessarily due to jitter; they could also arise from insufficient power-supply rejection on the DAC chip’s voltage reference pin.) But spurious jitter tends to be much higher in frequency than 30Hz, hence much less susceptible to masking.
The above comment about masking seems to show a lack of study of the matter. The scientific literature (example Zwicker and Fastl) suggests that FM distortion is heard based on three different perceptual models depending on jitter frequency. At very low jitter frequencies, the ear simply tracks the changes. LP rotation-based jitter is usually perceived this way. Above a few Hz jitter is heard as roughness which my 30 Hz jitter samples demonstrate quite clearly. Above a few 100 Hz masking starts coming into play.

Reference Zwicker and Fastl Psychoacoustics Facts and Models (Third Edition, 2007):

http://www.autistici.org/2000-maniax...o%20Fastl).pdf

Chapter 10, page 258 paragraph 10.1

(I'd reproduce the text but AVS recently totally screwed up the process of posting graphics)



As I have said in this thread several times and have demonstrated I can fabricate audio files with jitter de jour. If someone would actually give them a fair hearing, name the jitter frequency, and in due time, I'll post the files. It looks to me like I may have the sequence of levels for effective listener training and critical listening pretty close, but I have practically total control over that as well. I can also change musical selections, although the Joni Mitchell piece seems pretty diagnostic for jitter, especially near the beginning. Foobar2000 allows listening to the test tone or the music or both, by simply adjusting easy to use controls.

Quote:
The primary modulation frequency of 30Hz is too high if you are trying to model the behavior of an LP player, where I have found the primary sidebands to lie at +/-8 to 12Hz, depending on the frequency of the tonearm effective mass/cartridge-suspension compliance . So I am not sure what you are trying to prove about jitter with these files. Any listening test results will not demonstrate the audibility or not of the jitter typically found in digital systems.
As I have documented, I was targeting a real world result, for which the sample provided is just one example. I suspect that 30 Hz corresponds to a common HDMI framing frequency.

It is possible that the 60 Hz results that you have obtained might be exactly what you say and are power supply related, or not. I'd probably change the power supply frequency to nail that down if that was of interest.

I am familiar with the 12 Hz jitter frequency related to tone arms as it shows up in the literature all the time. 0.555 Hz is another LP-related jitter frequency based pm 33 1/3 rpm.

Again, my major concern is not wasting my time with files that nobody listens to properly. If you want something, specify it and we can probably do something.

Last edited by arnyk; 06-19-2014 at 05:37 AM.
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I consider the marginal level file at the threshold of audibility. It perfectly demonstrates that the much lower jitter levels encountered in the various digital interface formats will NOT be audible.
You cannot draw that conclusion, I am afraid. The audibility of jitter-related spuriae depends not just on the level of the spuriae but also on their frequencies. As I explained, the frequency of typical jitter components is higher than 30Hz, so there will be significantly less masking.

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You cannot draw that conclusion, I am afraid. The audibility of jitter-related spuriae depends not just on the level of the spuriae but also on their frequencies. As I explained, the frequency of typical jitter components is higher than 30Hz, so there will be significantly less masking.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Yes I can.


The higher frequency content is negated by the fact that the usual spuriae levels are much lower than those in Arny's file.
Also I believe the 30Hz makes it easier to hear the effect I'm listening for to determine the track with the modulation.

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You cannot draw that conclusion, I am afraid. The audibility of jitter-related spuriae depends not just on the level of the spuriae but also on their frequencies. As I explained, the frequency of typical jitter components is higher than 30Hz, so there will be significantly less masking.

John Atkinson
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Please reread my post above. I've just lately added a reference to a highly respected source that points out the utter irrelevancy of masking to the perception of some kinds of jitter. I'm prepared to provide files for DBT listening that can help resolve this issue. What jitter frequency would suit your current belief system? What other changes would you like to the format of the files?
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Yes I can.


The higher frequency content is negated by the fact that the usual spuriae levels are much lower than those in Arny's file.
Also I believe the 30Hz makes it easier to hear the effect I'm listening for to determine the track with the modulation.
I think that the weighting curves and standards long established for analog media can be a guide in studying this issue.

I recently posted a graph related to a fairly current weighting standard used in Europe that seems consistent with your comments above.

Ditto for the Zwicker and Fastl book I just posted a link to in its entirety and point out where some of the relevant facts and models are described in it. This is a > $85 textbook that is chock full of relevant facts and models, but it can be a heavy read.


Good work on the 0.0125 (-50 dB) file. The files are in an approximate 2:1 sequence so the 0.00625 (-56 dB) file is being made and will be posted today.
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You cannot draw that conclusion, I am afraid. The audibility of jitter-related spuriae depends not just on the level of the spuriae but also on their frequencies. As I explained, the frequency of typical jitter components is higher than 30Hz, so there will be significantly less masking.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Adding on to that is this: Here is an example of AVR jitter I post earlier:



One can't simulate the audible effect of just one of those distortion spikes. The rest of the distortions don't take vacation while you listen to just one them in your system.

The other issue is that none of the people arguing have post the measurements of their AVRs. How they know what distortions it has absence of that, must require much higher IQ than I have .

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Please reread my post above. I've just lately added a reference to a highly respected source that points out the utter irrelevancy of masking to the perception of some kinds of jitter. I'm prepared to provide files for DBT listening that can help resolve this issue. What jitter frequency would suit your current belief system? What other changes would you like to the format of the files?

Can you put the sinewaves at the end of the track with a slightly longer pause between the song and the sine?
At high listening levels it's a bit uncomfortable to dail in the start position. Got me of guard several times..
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Is this the Hi-Rez Audio Test thread or.... let's try to discredit Arny thread?
Pathetic. Especially from "professionals". Let's try to set a good example for the children.
The argument between Arny and John Atkinson is like the fight between Peter and the Chicken, and it's been going on for a long, long, long time. Quite a show, appreciate it because these are heavyweight champions duking it out.

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You cannot draw that conclusion, I am afraid. The audibility of jitter-related spuriae depends not just on the level of the spuriae but also on their frequencies.
Excellent point! I've been saying this since the RAO days. ;-)

In those days this was intuitively clear to me, but I lacked backup. Now, it seems like just another one of those well-accepted scientific facts, except perhaps for audio.

Quote:
As I explained, the frequency of typical jitter components is higher than 30Hz, so there will be significantly less masking.
Both standard texts (referenced in detail in a recent post) and my own experiences with DBTs say that masking is not the whole story related to the audibility of FM distortion at various frequencies.

The masking model fades in above 200 Hz or so where the roughness model starts fading out. This all makes sense if you understand critical bands well enough.

I found this information first published in a paper on the web that if memory serves was written by Zwicker or Fastl for NASA (originally in German, translated to English) in the early 1950s, so its not like it should have been ignored by all the people who seem to have ignored it.
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The argument between Arny and John Atkinson is like the fight between Peter and the Chicken, and it's been going on for a long, long, long time. Quite a show, appreciate it because these are heavyweight champions duking it out.

Check the Usenet archives for rec.audio.high-end and rec.audio.opinion. I think I smoked John out in the mid-late 1990s and he's been entertaining me since then. I have an unfair advantage, I don't have to deal with his writers! ;-)
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