Originally Posted by krabapple
But sir, no one is saying jitter cannot be audible.
Ah we are back to "no one is saying jitter cannot be audible" argument. Except that if any case of jitter is presented the reply is "it is not audible." We can't even state our position properly.
Originally Posted by Krab
The question to you and Vicky Melchior is, under what conditions can we expect it to be? When is it *likely* to be audible? THAT would be useful information.
That is like asking, "under what conditions can I get sick if I don't wash my hands before eating for a week." The answer is to wash your hands. No one can predict what all collects on your hands over that week as to characterize what could or could not be on it.
The point of their statement and mine is to raise awareness that we are being shortchanged with respect to fidelity over HDMI. Multiple generations after it was introduced still manifests as an interface which in mass market products has far more distortion than the included DAC silicon is rated. The same DAC driven by another digital interface doesn't show any of those distortions in many consumer AVRs. You see, "useful information" has been conveyed. But folks had no use for it because it advocates better designs and heaven forbid we don't want to admit there is anything wrong with the design of our dollar store audio products.
This is not a discussion of power cables. We are talking about equipment that can easily be characterized to have deficiencies in its design. People in the industry talking to each other need no more information than stated to know this is the case. Countless manufacturers have read my paper on HDMI noise/jitter and all I have heard through the back channel is agreement. Not one of them has written in to say, "but it is not audible." Or that "our product doesn't have that problem."
But no we have to go and throw this into another "audiophile" versus "not" ring. It better not be about that. We advocate proper "science and engineer" and it is precisely that area that has failed us here. It is no fairytale story that we are dealing with. The more we fight this the more we show that we too have no use for science and engineering. We feel just as free to throw out any information on those grounds presented to us. We are just as dogmatic while keeping cotton firmly in our ears with respect to new data that says what we assumed to be right in audio, is not.
Here we have our mentor leading us into a ditch. Arny adds 30 hz "jitter" to a file and then says, "look jitter is not very audible." Oh really? How did that become news that 30 Hz jitter is less audible than other frequencies? I asked him earlier if he thought 30 Hz jitter was proper way for folks to evaluate audibility of jitter in general. His answer was that it was for the reader to decide. Well, I decided and I say it stinks in the way we mislead people with synthetic benchmarks like this.
To add insult to injury only two people ran Arny's jitter test. But he goes on to say that the "AVS Forum participants" created such data? Really? Two people created science? How about the fact that no one else ran it? What if that shows they could not hear the same as the two of us? That would show that we are not equal when it comes to non-linear distortions. And that maybe "golden ear" people do exist.
So let's wake up guys. All the information is here already. You don't need Vicky to tell you more. All of these pages are indexed by google and will haunt you for years to come in how it shows defiance of "science and engineering." Better to adopt a new posture now before it becomes something you can't deny.
OK, I feel better now.