Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 58 - AVS Forum
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post #1711 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by False Claim View Post
This is the real knowledge and experience in this topic:

http://www.aes.org/technical/trends/report2012.pdf
Co-chairs: Vicky Melchior and Josh Reiss, Chairs

HDMI, the point-to-point connector required for BR and HD video, has excellent bandwidth and an Ethernet data link (HDMI 1.4), but lacks an audio clock. HDMI receivers must derive audio word clock from the video pixel clock, commonly resulting in very high jitter that affects quality and can be audible. Some high end receivers address the jitter and many companies are researching it but current solutions are expensive and uncommon.
I am really don't understand why those apparently without any engineering knowledge are so skeptical about those who do. Vicky Melchior is one of the USA's leading DSP and digital audio engineers. Probably everyone contributing to this thread has benefited in some way from her expertise. She is also a personal friend and I have learned much from her. When Vicky speaks, wise people listen and don't squeal about "appeals to authority."

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post #1712 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 03:25 PM
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Thanks for those references, Mark, although the links didn't work for me.
Links fixed!

1. Wikipedia: Myth of the Flat Earth

2. Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat
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post #1713 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SubObjective99 View Post
Yeah I know, any subjectivity in audio is so wrong.
You go from Teresa' Goodwin's argument to this? Well, not *any* subjectivity. Some of it's more hilariously wrong than others. But shall we say you're on Team Teresa on this, then? Watch out for those CDs? They're dangerous? Or do you think maybe she's 'on the fringe' there?


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Hey, when are you going to perform that DBT with your 'Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature' audiophile amp and an entry-level receiver? I'll just bet you can't hear the difference!
Hmm, will a DBT done at Sunshine Audio, using the owner/audiophile's own selection of gear (a pair of Pass Labs Aleph 10 monoblocks) versus a mass market Yamaha receiver, do?

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_24_r.pdf

see PDF page 7, Tom Nousaine's letter describing the "Steve Zipser challenge'.

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post #1714 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I am really don't understand why those apparently without any engineering knowledge are so skeptical about those who do. Vicky Melchior is one of the USA's leading DSP and digital audio engineers. Probably everyone contributing to this thread has benefited in some way from her expertise. She is also a personal friend and I have learned much from her. When Vicky speaks, wise people listen and don't squeal about "appeals to authority."

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
But sir, no one is saying jitter cannot be audible. The question to you and Vicky Melchior is, under what conditions can we expect it to be? When is it *likely* to be audible? THAT would be useful information.
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post #1715 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 03:53 PM
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But sir, no one is saying jitter cannot be audible. The question to you and Vicky Melchior is, under what conditions can we expect it to be? When is it *likely* to be audible? THAT would be useful information.
Even more explicitly, when is it audible in product(s) compared to another product or products?
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post #1716 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
You go from Teresa' Goodwin's argument to this? Well, not *any* subjectivity. Some of it's more hilariously wrong than others. But shall we say you're on Team Teresa on this, then? Watch out for those CDs? They're dangerous? Or do you think maybe she's 'on the fringe' there?

Hmm, will a DBT done at Sunshine Audio, using the owner/audiophile's own selection of gear (a pair of Pass Labs Aleph 10 monoblocks) versus a mass market Yamaha receiver, do?

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_24_r.pdf

see PDF page 7, Tom Nousaine's letter describing the "Steve Zipser challenge'.
Here's a nifty AVS get-together where (unscientific) blind testing of speakers—not even amps or DACs but speakers—managed to trip up the owners of those same speakers.

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post #1717 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 04:12 PM
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Even more explicitly, when is it audible in product(s) compared to another product or products?

That of course would be most useful, but even having a sense of when it's audible 'as a rule', that can be applied to a given set of DUT measurements, would be helpful.

It's like knowing that ~0.2dB is the the lower limit of level difference audibility 'as a rule' (even though for a particular pair of differences, e.g. between complex signals, the threshold might be higher) . If see from bench tests that two DUTs differ by >0.2dB in output within the audible range, we are safer saying there's a likely audible difference (especially if the difference falls in the most human-sensitive part of that range, and especially as the difference grows beyond 0.2dB)
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post #1718 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 04:40 PM
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... At that point, his defense was "so what? It doesn't really hurt anyone".
His pocket must be a lot deeper than mine.
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post #1719 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 04:45 PM
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I often do that. Sometimes I get in the passenger side of my car wondering if someone stole the steering wheel!!!

Here is another true story. I worked for Sony in 1990s. At the time I had a Honda Accord. One night I was working late and left after dark. I go the parking lot and unlock my car with my key and sit down. Yes, this time it was the driver's side. I put the key in the ignition and turn on the car and go shift gears and notice that the car was automatic and mine was manual!!! I look around and notice it was not my car! Later on I found out the car belonged to one of the other Sony managers and it was actually a different color but at night it looked the same as mine.

So yeh, I do get it backwards often.


You are definitely right on the anxiety side as I have been saying. We run around worried about little children getting harmed by being exposed to how the technology works and ways to separate quality engineering from dollar store gear. This naturally causes angst for some of us who have advocated otherwise. It is human nature so you can be forgiven for going there. You are however are protecting yourself and not anyone else here.

To make sure you remember the topic, S/PDIF on the same equipment available on just about any piece of audio gear performs better on HDMI on the same equipment. It costs therefore nothing, zero, zip to get the better performance. S/PDIF also doesn't have the delay or copy protection that HDMI has. All around for music listening, it works great and there is no reason for anyone to not use it and settle for higher distortion HDMI link.


Woof woof!

Here is a comparison of USB vs HDMI:



Here is the answer Arny gave to that poster:


Wonder what data Arny had which he has not yet post that demonstrated his point of HDMI being "preferable" or "doing the best job." I think he was betting on no one having the right data to contradict that message.

Woof Woof!
It's amazing how much you have to distort in order to promote low distortion gears you sell. Very ironic.
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post #1720 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 04:57 PM
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His pocket must be a lot deeper than mine.
Yes. Of course, even if it was incredibly deep, it doesn't change the fact that spending lots of money unnecessarily on one thing means one loses the opportunity to spend it on other things that could be more useful. This could be considered a variant of the broken window fallacy:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable..._broken_window

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post #1721 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 06:07 PM
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It's amazing how much you have to distort in order to promote low distortion gears you sell. Very ironic.
And again, S/PDIF is not an all-purpose 'zero cost' replacement for HDMI: the former cannot pass multichannel PCM (much less DSD). If you're willing/able to convert those to DTS or AC3, great, or already have DTS/AC3 versions, you're good to go. If not....you're SOL.


I somehow suspect that people who have conniptions over HDMI versus S/PDIF jitter would be unhappy to be restricted to lossy versions of their 5.1 PCM/DSD tracks.

Imagine trying to sell an audiophile on the need for 'highest quality' in the hardware, but not the software. Who would do that? ;>
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post #1722 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SubObjective99 View Post
Yeah I know, any subjectivity in audio is so wrong. Hey, when are you going to perform that DBT with your 'Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature' audiophile amp and an entry-level receiver? I'll just bet you can't hear the difference!
Neither are you likely to hear the difference.
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post #1723 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 06:16 PM
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But sir, no one is saying jitter cannot be audible. The question to you and Vicky Melchior is, under what conditions can we expect it to be? When is it *likely* to be audible? THAT would be useful information.
I agree.

The obvious answer is that jitter is likely to be audible when it exceeds Zwicker and Fastls JNDa for the relevant kinds of FM distortion:



Just for the record, the above JND level was confirmed as being audible @ 30Hz by ABX DBTs performed by AVS forum participants.

I suspect that if people compare the AVS test results with the above, they might be surprised.
Attached Images
File Type: png AM & FM JDD.png (179.8 KB, 86 views)
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post #1724 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I somehow suspect that people who have conniptions over HDMI versus S/PDIF jitter would be unhappy to be restricted to lossy versions of their 5.1 PCM/DSD tracks.
Nope. We use it for 2-channel music listening from our music servers. S/PDIF is plenty for that.

Newer DACs have USB inputs which can also outperform HDMI and that interface is free-form and can do what folks want it to do.

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Imagine trying to sell an audiophile on the need for 'highest quality' in the hardware, but not the software. Who would do that? ;>
We have both Krab. Both.

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post #1725 of 2286 Old 07-06-2014, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Just for the record, the above JND level was confirmed as being audible @ 30Hz by ABX DBTs performed by AVS forum participants.
As one of only two "participants" making science this way, I hope from now on people refer to me as Mr. False Claim!

Thank you and good night.

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post #1726 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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But sir, no one is saying jitter cannot be audible.
Ah we are back to "no one is saying jitter cannot be audible" argument. Except that if any case of jitter is presented the reply is "it is not audible." We can't even state our position properly.

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Originally Posted by Krab
The question to you and Vicky Melchior is, under what conditions can we expect it to be? When is it *likely* to be audible? THAT would be useful information.
That is like asking, "under what conditions can I get sick if I don't wash my hands before eating for a week." The answer is to wash your hands. No one can predict what all collects on your hands over that week as to characterize what could or could not be on it.

The point of their statement and mine is to raise awareness that we are being shortchanged with respect to fidelity over HDMI. Multiple generations after it was introduced still manifests as an interface which in mass market products has far more distortion than the included DAC silicon is rated. The same DAC driven by another digital interface doesn't show any of those distortions in many consumer AVRs. You see, "useful information" has been conveyed. But folks had no use for it because it advocates better designs and heaven forbid we don't want to admit there is anything wrong with the design of our dollar store audio products.

This is not a discussion of power cables. We are talking about equipment that can easily be characterized to have deficiencies in its design. People in the industry talking to each other need no more information than stated to know this is the case. Countless manufacturers have read my paper on HDMI noise/jitter and all I have heard through the back channel is agreement. Not one of them has written in to say, "but it is not audible." Or that "our product doesn't have that problem."

But no we have to go and throw this into another "audiophile" versus "not" ring. It better not be about that. We advocate proper "science and engineer" and it is precisely that area that has failed us here. It is no fairytale story that we are dealing with. The more we fight this the more we show that we too have no use for science and engineering. We feel just as free to throw out any information on those grounds presented to us. We are just as dogmatic while keeping cotton firmly in our ears with respect to new data that says what we assumed to be right in audio, is not.

Here we have our mentor leading us into a ditch. Arny adds 30 hz "jitter" to a file and then says, "look jitter is not very audible." Oh really? How did that become news that 30 Hz jitter is less audible than other frequencies? I asked him earlier if he thought 30 Hz jitter was proper way for folks to evaluate audibility of jitter in general. His answer was that it was for the reader to decide. Well, I decided and I say it stinks in the way we mislead people with synthetic benchmarks like this.

To add insult to injury only two people ran Arny's jitter test. But he goes on to say that the "AVS Forum participants" created such data? Really? Two people created science? How about the fact that no one else ran it? What if that shows they could not hear the same as the two of us? That would show that we are not equal when it comes to non-linear distortions. And that maybe "golden ear" people do exist.

So let's wake up guys. All the information is here already. You don't need Vicky to tell you more. All of these pages are indexed by google and will haunt you for years to come in how it shows defiance of "science and engineering." Better to adopt a new posture now before it becomes something you can't deny.

OK, I feel better now.

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post #1727 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 07:18 AM
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Ah we are back to "no one is saying jitter cannot be audible" argument. Except that if any case of jitter is presented the reply is "it is not audible." We can't even state our position properly.

That is like asking, "under what conditions can I get sick if I don't wash my hands before eating for a week." The answer is to wash your hands. No one can predict what all collects on your hands over that week as to characterize what could or could not be on it.

The point of their statement and mine is to raise awareness that we are being shortchanged with respect to fidelity over HDMI. Multiple generations after it was introduced still manifests as an interface which in mass market products has far more distortion than the included DAC silicon is rated. The same DAC driven by another digital interface doesn't show any of those distortions in many consumer AVRs. You see, "useful information" has been conveyed. But folks had no use for it because it advocates better designs and heaven forbid we don't want to admit there is anything wrong with the design of our dollar store audio products.

This is not a discussion of power cables. We are talking about equipment that can easily be characterized to have deficiencies in its design. People in the industry talking to each other need no more information than stated to know this is the case. Countless manufacturers have read my paper on HDMI noise/jitter and all I have heard through the back channel is agreement. Not one of them has written in to say, "but it is not audible." Or that "our product doesn't have that problem."

But no we have to go and throw this into another "audiophile" versus "not" ring. It better not be about that. We advocate proper "science and engineer" and it is precisely that area that has failed us here. It is no fairytale story that we are dealing with. The more we fight this the more we show that we too have no use for science and engineering. We feel just as free to throw out any information on those grounds presented to us. We are just as dogmatic while keeping cotton firmly in our ears with respect to new data that says what we assumed to be right in audio, is not.

Here we have our mentor leading us into a ditch. Arny adds 30 hz "jitter" to a file and then says, "look jitter is not very audible." Oh really? How did that become news that 30 Hz jitter is less audible than other frequencies? I asked him earlier if he thought 30 Hz jitter was proper way for folks to evaluate audibility of jitter in general. His answer was that it was for the reader to decide. Well, I decided and I say it stinks in the way we mislead people with synthetic benchmarks like this.

To add insult to injury only two people ran Arny's jitter test. But he goes on to say that the "AVS Forum participants" created such data? Really? Two people created science? How about the fact that no one else ran it? What if that shows they could not hear the same as the two of us? That would show that we are not equal when it comes to non-linear distortions. And that maybe "golden ear" people do exist.

So let's wake up guys. All the information is here already. You don't need Vicky to tell you more. All of these pages are indexed by google and will haunt you for years to come in how it shows defiance of "science and engineering." Better to adopt a new posture now before it becomes something you can't deny.

OK, I feel better now. [/QUOTE]

When you cook a roast, do you incinerate it into a lump of charcoal, or do you use a meat thermometer and take it out when it reaches 165 deg. F?
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post #1728 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 07:20 AM
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Neither are you likely to hear the difference.

You missed the point. I was pointing out hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed objectivist utilizing an "audiophile" amp in his system.

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #1729 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 07:49 AM
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You missed the point. I was pointing out hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed objectivist utilizing an "audiophile" amp in his system.
You're reaching, Step Armstrong style.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1730 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 07:56 AM
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You're reaching, Step Armstrong style.

From you, I take that as a compliment. What "audiophile" components do you possess that you are willing to reveal?

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #1731 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:04 AM
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Ah we are back to "no one is saying jitter cannot be audible" argument. Except that if any case of jitter is presented the reply is "it is not audible."
False claim. Just show the audibility of jitter via a good subjective test i.e. a DBT, or via an objective test that shows jitter that measures out above the thresholds published by Zwicker and Fastl 2007 and the golden ring is yours.
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post #1732 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:07 AM
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Ah we are back to "no one is saying jitter cannot be audible" argument. Except that if any case of jitter is presented the reply is "it is not audible."
False claim. Just show the audibility of jitter via a good subjective test i.e. a DBT, or via an objective test that shows jitter that measures out above the thresholds published by Zwicker and Fastl 2007 and the golden ring is yours.

There may even be other ways. If one shows objective measurements of jitter in amounts that are higher than has been shown to be audible in a good subjective test, then that can work, too.

IMO it is possible that Zwicker and Fastl's thresholds are on the high side. If good subjective tests show that the actual thresholds are appreciably lower than Zwicker and Fastl's, then there might even be a good paper in that.
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post #1733 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:13 AM
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As one of only two "participants" making science this way, I hope from now on people refer to me as Mr. False Claim!

Thank you and good night.

False Claim
(Formerly Amir)
Come on Amir. I did you a big favor. I set up an open-ended DBT that could have gone anywhere in terms of confirming or denying the relevance of anybody's claims about the audibility of jitter, depending on what people heard in the privacy of their own homes.

You apparently tried your best. Nobody other than one other person who outperformed you, even tried. Your inability to marshall anybody else to give you a hand isn't my fault, is it?

What could I have done to obtain results that would have been more supportive of you?
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post #1734 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
False claim.
That's my name, don't wear it out!!!

Quote:
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Just show the audibility of jitter via a good subjective test i.e. a DBT, or via an objective test that shows jitter that measures out above the thresholds published by Zwicker and Fastl 2007 and the golden ring is yours.
Why is it that I have to do all the work Arny? You post your listening test and I ran it. You said I would be the last person but I was not. Can you post your results so that we can see how they match with "Zwicker and Fastl?"

And do you have "Zwicker and Fastl" for the level and frequencies of your music file?

Sincerely,
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post #1735 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SubObjective99 View Post
You missed the point. I was pointing out hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed objectivist utilizing an "audiophile" amp in his system.
So here is a question. Would a Bryston count as an "audiophile" amp. If you answer that in the affirmative, I will post the name of a well known audio objectivist who owned at least 2 of them that I know of.
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post #1736 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:21 AM
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Why is it that I have to do all the work Arny?
False claim. The other person who outperformed you rendered valuable services.

I rendered the valuable service of preparing the files for the test.

The work was split among at least 3 different people, not just you Amir.

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You said I would be the last person but I was not.
Sue me for having a cloudy crystal ball. But didn't the other person who did the test start before you and do more tests than you?

Looks to me like you are trying to take credit when all you actually did is quit first.


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Can you post your results so that we can see how they match with "Zwicker and Fastl?"
I have disqualified myself from listening tests on the grounds of age and infirmity.

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And do you have "Zwicker and Fastl" for the level and frequencies of your music file?
Yes - they are about 6 posts back. Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test
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post #1737 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Come on Amir. I did you a big favor. I set up an open-ended DBT that could have gone anywhere in terms of confirming or denying the relevance of anybody's claims about the audibility of jitter, depending on what people heard in the privacy of their own homes.
I am always indebted to you for these favors Arny. So let there be no doubt about that.

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You apparently tried your best. Nobody other than one other person who outperformed you, even tried. Your inability to marshall anybody else to give you a hand isn't my fault, is it?
I tried my best with the lousy tool you said we had to use. I explained all the things that were wrong with the tool and it seemed like that was news to folks. Tells me that people are not exposed to proper tools for this kind of testing.

And while I expect others to outperform me, I don't recall seeing those results. Where are they?

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Originally Posted by arny
What could I have done to obtain results that would have been more supportive of you?
You are always supportive of me so let's not go there . But since you asked:

1. Seeing you and all the other "jitter is not audible" people run and report on the results.

2. Seeing how you created the file so that we can duplicate and run it on other test files of our choosing.

3. Not demanding that we use Foobar.

4. Showing measurements of your AVR and how it has jitter at 30 Hz. Ditto for all the other people.

5. Showing that you actually own the Zwicker and Fastl book so that we don't look like we just copy and paste google book excerpts.

I could go on but suffice it to say, whatever position we used to have is far weaker now. Prior to this thread we could claim as we have repeatedly that we love and run DBTs. Now it turns out that even our grand master, Arny, would not run his own test! I guess it is fine. It shows our true character and intentions once and for all. This is just a personal fight and has nothing to do with “science and engineering.”

Sincerely,
False Claim
(formerly Amir)

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

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post #1738 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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False claim.
That's my name. Don't wear it out.

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Originally Posted by arny
The other person who outperformed you rendered valuable services.
Wow. So that excuses all the others from running any blind tests?

Arny I have asked you before whether you had ever documented your DBTs. You told me this was it:



Do you honestly want your legacy to be this way? One and only one test you have ever run for which we have documented results showing that you proved there are differences between amps?

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Originally Posted by arny
I have disqualified myself from listening tests on the grounds of age and infirmity.
Ah, something substantive. Can you please explain how your sensitivity to jitter would be lower because of age and infirmity?

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post #1739 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 09:01 AM
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1. Seeing you and all the other "jitter is not audible" people run and report on the results.
The amount and kind of jitter in the files was readily apparent based on a simple analysis of the 1 KHz tone that was in the file. I laid out a set of steps and calculations for analyzing it, and I published the results of my analysis.

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2. Seeing how you created the file so that we can duplicate and run it on other test files of our choosing.
I told the name of the tool I used to create it. Anybody who is familiar with that tool should be able to figure out the rest because it is so obvious. Since that does not appear to be the case I will reveal more details:



The above parameters produce a highly jittered file. I produced the files with less jitter by the time-honored means of dilution. For example, if I wanted a file with half the jitter I mixed equal parts of the original unjittered file and the highly jittered file. I then adjusted the level of the resulting file based on the amplitude of the test tone. I confirmed the results by analyzing the test tone and adjusting the process as needed.

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3. Not demanding that we use Foobar.
Never happened. I recommended FOOBAR in good faith, and based on high recommendations from other DBT users. There is no record of someone showing up with results produced using some other tool and those results being disqualified.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
4. Showing measurements of your AVR and how it has jitter at 30 Hz. Ditto for all the other people.
Irrelevant to this test because this is a subjective test. My AVR is tied up with my primary audio system which is heavily used every day. It is well known that you have a number of AVRs and that your primary audio system doesn't even have an AVR in it.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
5. Showing that you actually own the Zwicker and Fastl book so that we don't look like we just copy and paste google book excerpts.
I own a paper copy of an earlier edition than the 2007 edition of Zwicker and Fastl because I bought it around year 2000 or so if memory serves. You'll have to take my word for it. I found the purchase record of it in my Amazon orders and the purchase date was April 28, 2000. It shows that I have the 1999 edition.


All of the above shows why proponents are required to do their own tests. If someone who is not a rabid proponent tries to help them do their work for them, they become disappointed and bite the helping hand off and spit it away.
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post #1740 of 2286 Old 07-07-2014, 09:09 AM
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Do you honestly want your legacy to be this way?
I consider ABX to be a very tiny part of my personal legacy.

I would prefer to be known as the father of two Cancer researchers with earned PhDs and growing publication lists and other forms of professional success. I would be preferred to be known as the father of a successful engineer and manager in the realm of coated paper with a MBA and BS degrees in Chemical and Environmental engineering. I would be prefer to be known as the husband of my wife for almost 50 years. Etc., etc.

Audio: fun, but compared to life and death... ;-)
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