Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 59 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1741 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 09:15 AM
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I would prefer to be known as Your Emminence.
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"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1742 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm
That is like asking, "under what conditions can I get sick if I don't wash my hands before eating for a week." The answer is to wash your hands. No one can predict what all collects on your hands over that week as to characterize what could or could not be on it.
No, that is not the answer to that question (which would actually be a legitimate scientific/epidemiologial question). The answer would probably be, 'under most conditions'.

And no, asking about HDMI jitter audibility is not like asking your question, unless it *is* likely that jitter is audible under normal HDMI use. Which is exactly what none of you have demonstrated!

It is more like asking, under what conditions are speaker cables likely to sound different?

Under most conditions they aren't. But we know that long runs with high-gauge cable versus short runs with low gauge is one such condition where they are. What is a comparably useful answer from you, the industry, or the AES?

Last edited by krabapple; 07-07-2014 at 12:25 PM.
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post #1743 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
No, that is not the answer to that question (which would actually be a legitimate scientific/epidemiologial question). The answer would probably be, 'under most conditions'.

And no, asking about HDMI jitter audibility is not like asking your question, unless it *is* likely that jitter is audible under normal HDMI use. Which is exactly what none of you have demonstrated!

It is more like asking, under what conditions are speaker cables likely to sound different?

Under most conditions they aren't. But we know that long runs with high-gauge cable versus short runs with low gauge is one such condition where they are. What is a comparably useful answer from you, the industry, the AES, or Dancing Man?
Somehow, my username has been conflated with Amir's quote.
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post #1744 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SubObjective99 View Post
You missed the point. I was pointing out hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed objectivist utilizing an "audiophile" amp in his system.
What hypocrisy? I bought it because it has a lot of power, and because my front speakers are actively biamped (two channels per speaker), and powering them with two receivers or two two-channel amps would have been silly and/or used up unnecessary space. So spare me the "hypocrisy" comments.
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Last edited by RobertR; 07-07-2014 at 09:50 AM.
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post #1745 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 09:50 AM
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I am always indebted to you for these favors Arny. So let there be no doubt about that.


I tried my best with the lousy tool you said we had to use. I explained all the things that were wrong with the tool and it seemed like that was news to folks. Tells me that people are not exposed to proper tools for this kind of testing.

And while I expect others to outperform me, I don't recall seeing those results. Where are they?


You are always supportive of me so let's not go there . But since you asked:

1. Seeing you and all the other "jitter is not audible" people run and report on the results.

2. Seeing how you created the file so that we can duplicate and run it on other test files of our choosing.

3. Not demanding that we use Foobar.

4. Showing measurements of your AVR and how it has jitter at 30 Hz. Ditto for all the other people.

5. Showing that you actually own the Zwicker and Fastl book so that we don't look like we just copy and paste google book excerpts.

I could go on but suffice it to say, whatever position we used to have is far weaker now. Prior to this thread we could claim as we have repeatedly that we love and run DBTs. Now it turns out that even our grand master, Arny, would not run his own test! I guess it is fine. It shows our true character and intentions once and for all. This is just a personal fight and has nothing to do with “science and engineering.”

Sincerely,
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If this is a "lousy tool", then what constitutes a "proper tool"?
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post #1746 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
I would prefer to be known as Your Emminence.

A step down from "He who must be obeyed".


Before Amirm changed his name, I though this thread should be renamed: Dualing A's the ultimate smack-down.


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post #1747 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
I would prefer to be known as Your Emminence.
In my domain (which I am "a master of..."), I'm referred to as "Your Flatulance".

Like "jitter". You may not hear it... but eventually, you'll know it exists.

Last edited by Ratman; 07-07-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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post #1748 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 11:30 AM
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In my domain (which I am "a master of..."), I'm referred to as "Your Flatulance".

Like "jitter". You may not hear it... but eventually, you'll know it exists.
It would certainly pass a double blind test!
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post #1749 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 11:39 AM
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A step down from "He who must be obeyed".
The first rule would be "that which is not mandatory is prohibited".
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post #1750 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Somehow, my username has been conflated with Amir's quote.

Sorry, i see my mistake, but that's because Amir's quote wasn't presented in consistent quote format.

To do that, you have to add the username to all the 'quote open' tags

e.g., quotes should look something like this :

//


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
blah blah blah
You seem to have left something out amirm...why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
yadda yadda yadda
Now you're just reverting to what you said 30 posts ago amir...but still no answer.

//

etc. I'll go back and fix my previous post to show correct attribution.

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post #1751 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Sorry, is see my mistake, but that's because Amir's quote wasn't presented in consistent quote format.

To do that, you have to add the username to all the 'quote open' tags

e.g., an exchange should looked like this :

//




You seem to have left something out amirm...why?



Now you're just reverting to what you said 30 posts ago amir...but still no answer.

//

etc. I'll go back and fix my previous post to show correct attribution.
I may have inadvertently blitzed a quote tag.

Curses, ye HTML!
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post #1752 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 01:49 PM
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It would certainly pass a double blind test!
Perhaps... but unless I provide technical data/charts to prove that it exists, it's just dust in the wind and blowin' smoke.
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post #1753 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 02:21 PM
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Perhaps... but unless I provide technical data/charts to prove that it exists, it's just dust in the wind and blowin' smoke.
Well, not exactly blowin' smoke....
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post #1754 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 03:09 PM
 
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Ah we are back to "no one is saying jitter cannot be audible" argument. Except that if any case of jitter is presented the reply is "it is not audible." We can't even state our position properly.
That's right, the above is not a correct statement of the position of many people here. I can only speak for myself, but my position is definitely not that in any case of jitter that my reply is "It is not audible". My position is that jitter is audible, I've heard it, and the question of whether it is audible needs to be judged on a case by case basis.

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That is like asking, "under what conditions can I get sick if I don't wash my hands before eating for a week." The answer is to wash your hands. No one can predict what all collects on your hands over that week as to characterize what could or could not be on it.
Handwashing fetish noted. As usual the wrong question is being asked. We don't have to predict everything that collects on the hands to know whether or not anything that collects on the hands will make someone sick. The question at hand (as it were) is whether something harmful will collect on the hands and that depends on other circumstances. The world is full of things that can be on your hands and not make you get sick. Some are distasteful, but not harmful. If you work in a garbage dump or sewage treatment plant or in a plant that manufactures harmful substances then the chances of something harmful collecting on the hands is pretty good. However, there are many other circumstances where nothing harmful will collect on the hands for weeks.

The same is true of jitter. Jitter seems to have fairly high thresholds for audibility in many cases, and its magnitude in good digital equipment can be well below those thresholds. Not much comfort to someone with a jitter fetish, but that's how it is.

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The point of their statement and mine is to raise awareness that we are being shortchanged with respect to fidelity over HDMI.
That's true of jitter only if the jitter is at audible levels which is not a given, a priori. The very fact that we measure and quantify jitter is a strong indication that jitter may or may not be audible or may be more or less audible. If its audible no matter what, why bother to measure it?

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Multiple generations after it was introduced still manifests as an interface which in mass market products has far more distortion than the included DAC silicon is rated.
So what? Is the jitter that the included DAC is rated to have the be all and end all of jitter measurements? Of course not!

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
The same DAC driven by another digital interface doesn't show any of those distortions in many consumer AVRs.
Maybe, maybe not. We've seen actual measurements that went either way - the HDMI input either did or did not have appreciably more jitter than other inputs depending on which AVR or DAC that was being talked about.

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You see, "useful information" has been conveyed. But folks had no use for it because it advocates better designs and heaven forbid we don't want to admit there is anything wrong with the design of our dollar store audio products.
False claim. None of us are using dollar store audio products.

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This is not a discussion of power cables. We are talking about equipment that can easily be characterized to have deficiencies in its design.
The measurable imperfections are only deficiencies if they have audible consequences or come close to having audible consequences.

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People in the industry talking to each other need no more information than stated to know this is the case. Countless manufacturers have read my paper on HDMI noise/jitter and all I have heard through the back channel is agreement.
Despite its many errors, your paper is a pretty good sales pitch and something that raises misapprehensions that induces some people to spend the big bucks to allay. It plays right into manufacturer's game. of course they are going to like it. If these same manufacturers could get free advertising in those high end audio ragazines that are paragons of pseudoscience, they'd do that too. It's only money! ;-)

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Not one of them has written in to say, "but it is not audible." Or that "our product doesn't have that problem."
That would be like throwing money into the garbage can on the way to the bank.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
But no we have to go and throw this into another "audiophile" versus "not" ring.
I can only speak for myself, and I'm just looking for reliable evidence of audibility. I've already gone the mile and the extra mile to help intellectually lazy jitter advocates to prove their point. So far, no cigar!

Last edited by arnyk; 07-07-2014 at 03:29 PM.
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post #1755 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That's right, the above is not a correct statement of the position of many people here. I can only speak for myself, but my position is definitely not that in any case of jitter that my reply is "It is not audible".
Hmmm... Arny you must be tired today when you wrote that as the first sentence you are speaking for "many people" and then go on in the next sentence to say you are only speaking for yourself .

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Originally Posted by arnyk
My position is that jitter is audible, I've heard it, and the question of whether it is audible needs to be judged on a case by case basis.
For sure. But that presents a puzzle with respect to the discussion at hand. Folks saying jitter is not audible in their audio products have no measurements of them. So for all they know theirs would be the audible kind and they are hearing distortions. Worse yet they keep advocating that everyone buy products sight unseen when it comes to jitter.

The only explanation is that they don't believe this is a "case by case" situation. They consider all the cases the same: "jitter is not audible." Hence my objection to the argument that "we are not saying jitter is not audible." Their actions telegraphs otherwise.
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post #1756 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 06:49 PM
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Hmmm... Arny you must be tired today when you wrote that as the first sentence you are speaking for "many people" and then go on in the next sentence to say you are only speaking for yourself .


For sure. But that presents a puzzle with respect to the discussion at hand. Folks saying jitter is not audible in their audio products have no measurements of them. So for all they know theirs would be the audible kind and they are hearing distortions. Worse yet they keep advocating that everyone buy products sight unseen when it comes to jitter.

The only explanation is that they don't believe this is a "case by case" situation. They consider all the cases the same: "jitter is not audible." Hence my objection to the argument that "we are not saying jitter is not audible." Their actions telegraphs otherwise.
Who is "they"? Care to post some usernames?

How about the measurements you have posted in this thread? Are any of them audible?
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post #1757 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Handwashing fetish noted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
As usual the wrong question is being asked. We don't have to predict everything that collects on the hands to know whether or not anything that collects on the hands will make someone sick. The question at hand (as it were) is whether something harmful will collect on the hands and that depends on other circumstances. The world is full of things that can be on your hands and not make you get sick. Some are distasteful, but not harmful. If you work in a garbage dump or sewage treatment plant or in a plant that manufactures harmful substances then the chances of something harmful collecting on the hands is pretty good. However, there are many other circumstances where nothing harmful will collect on the hands for weeks.
This is where my two digital IQ rears its ugly head Arny. What did you say above? I can't make sense out of it or how it is not in agreement with what I said.

Expanding on my analogy, if you ask your doctor whether you should only wash your hands once a week, he will tell you that you should do it more often. He will say that without any knowledge that for sure you will get sick. Or even ordering a lab test. He is using his wisdom, experience, training and education to give you a sound recommendation.

Same is true of jitter or other performance aspects of your audio gear. The recommendation is to get quality implementations. That your hardware designer practiced circuit design hygiene and kept sensitive circuits from getting contaminated by the noisy digital circuits.

Saying that you need "proof" of audibility is the same as challenging your doctor to "prove to you" that you have disease carrying germs on your hand or else, you are not going to wash your hands. You wouldn't say that to your doctor. Same should be here.

Now if you don't wash your hands more than once a week as to avoid having a "hand washing fetish," then we have bigger issues to worry about than audio .
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post #1758 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Who is "they"? Care to post some usernames?
Sure. I will start with you. Then I will add Robert. Krab. Spkr. And heaven help me, our grand mentor, Arny.

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Originally Posted by koturban
How about the measurements you have posted in this thread? Are any of them audible?
I have given this answer already and multiple times. You are arguing with me so I am assuming you disagree with my position. Just to be sure, why not state what you think my position is?
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post #1759 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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False claim.
That's my name, please don't wear it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
None of us are using dollar store audio products.
Of course you are Arny. Dollar store is a metaphor for price first, everything else including performance second.

Sincerely,
False Claim
(formerly Amir)
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post #1760 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:13 PM
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Sure. I will start with you. Then I will add Robert. Krab. Spkr. And heaven help me, our grand mentor, Arny.


I have given this answer already and multiple times. You are arguing with me so I am assuming you disagree with my position. Just to be sure, why not state what you think my position is?
Quotes, please. I know I haven't said it.

I don't know what your position is. You never answer the question.

So answer it.
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post #1761 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:14 PM
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Expanding on my analogy, if you ask your doctor whether you should only wash your hands once a week, he will tell you that you should do it more often. He will say that without any knowledge that for sure you will get sick. Or even ordering a lab test. He is using his wisdom, experience, training and education to give you a sound recommendation....

Saying that you need "proof" of audibility is the same as challenging your doctor to "prove to you" that you have disease carrying germs on your hand or else, you are not going to wash your hands. You wouldn't say that to your doctor. Same should be here.
Actually, in terms of your analogy (which contains yet another appeal to authority), what you're claiming is the equivalent of saying that people who wash their hands two times a day WILL get colds, and those who wash their hands three times a day won't. You refuse to cite any studies demonstrating this. Instead, you generate FUD by citing a statement from an authority (a doctor in this case, or an AES authority in the other case) stating that insufficient washing of hands increases the likelihood of catching a cold, and sitting there smugly saying "see? the statement from the authority is all the proof I need!"
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post #1762 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:14 PM
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That's my name, please don't wear it out.


Of course you are Arny. Dollar store is a metaphor for price first, everything else including performance second.

Sincerely,
False Claim
(formerly Amir)
"Dollar store" is anything Amir doesn't sell.
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post #1763 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:15 PM
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Sure. I will start with you. Then I will add Robert.
Quote the post where I said that. In other words put up (of course, you won't shut up).
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post #1764 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:19 PM
 
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Hmmm... Arny you must be tired today when you wrote that as the first sentence you are speaking for "many people" and then go on in the next sentence to say you are only speaking for yourself .


For sure. But that presents a puzzle with respect to the discussion at hand. Folks saying jitter is not audible in their audio products have no measurements of them. So for all they know theirs would be the audible kind and they are hearing distortions. Worse yet they keep advocating that everyone buy products sight unseen when it comes to jitter.
Measurements only help when people know how they correlate with human perception.

Obvioiusly, you don't know how measurements correlate with human perception. You've been given data from a credible source, but its quite clear that you don't believe it. So it would appear to be hypocritical of you to demand people to measure their equipment.


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The only explanation is that they don't believe this is a "case by case" situation.
They can speak for themselves.

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They consider all the cases the same: "jitter is not audible." Hence my objection to the argument that "we are not saying jitter is not audible." Their actions telegraphs otherwise.
OK, if you wish you can split hairs between "We are not saying jitter is not audible." and what they can legitimately say which is:
"The jitter in our equipment is not audible to us as we listen to it"

Given that you have bragged about the exceptionally good sound quality of your analog tape recorder which according to you own measurements it probably has 1,000s of time more jitter than any AVR you would appear to be in the same boat as everybody else...
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post #1765 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:22 PM
 
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Dollar store is a metaphor for price first, everything else including performance second.
How do you systematically separate "Dollar store" equipment from equipment that is not "Dollar store"?
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post #1766 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quotes, please. I know I haven't said it.
Here you go:

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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Your labels are arbitrary because it's [jitter is] not even audible in the "poor" mass market AVR's.
You have no measurement of "mass market AVRs" yet you are sure that their jitter is inaudible. So your position is absolute and not "case by case" as Arny said.

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Originally Posted by koturban
I don't know what your position is. You never answer the question.
You keep arguing with me yet don't know if your position is different than mine??? What kind of logic is that? How about sitting back and only object when you know you are expressing a different opinion.

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So answer it.
It is case by case.
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post #1767 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
How do you systematically separate "Dollar store" equipment from equipment that is not "Dollar store"?
Same way folks systematically categorize mass market products to have no audible distortions.
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post #1768 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Dollar store is a metaphor for price first, everything else including performance second.
Interesting definition. According to the late Brian Cheney, much of High End audio fits that description. In an article titled Money and the High End: The Price is the Product, Cheney said:


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People like Dave Wilson, whom I have known since before he started his company in the early 80's and was happy to do favors for back then, charges more money for less hardware than anyone in the world. He cops to it too: poor people or the value conscious are not his market. He was the first to go to customer's homes and spend days setting up and tuning their new Wilson WAMMS. He realized how setup, associated equipment, and listening environment affected sound quality and did his best to make things better. He is not evil or even an opportunist: just a High Ender who believes in the usefulness of a big price tag in establishing product credibility.
Not that others are free of guilt. A close friend in this business told me of Dick Sequerra's brainstorming the retail of his new top-of-the-line. " Do you think, John," asks Dick, "that the system should sell for $60,000 or $100,000?" Guess what: Dick decided the speaker would sell better at $100,000. I see other people, like Eggleston, charging the magic $100,000 figure for their flagships. No, the price is not justified by the bill of materials or any other criteria for determining end user pricing. It is just a high price, plain and simple, designed to command respect for that reason only.

So it appears that you promote Dollar Store equipment, by your own definition.

Last edited by RobertR; 07-07-2014 at 07:58 PM.
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post #1769 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
So it appears that you promote Dollar Store equipment, by your own definition.
I have only promoted what is in my signature: quality engineering. Why are you having such a hard time with this concept?
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post #1770 of 2920 Old 07-07-2014, 07:49 PM
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I have only promoted what is in my signature:
It appears you don't read your own web site. Now you're claiming that Mark Levinson and Lexicon don't manufacture High End audio equipment.
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