Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Thanks... never "heard" a difference. Do you? Explain, if possible.

I prefer the analog outputs of the BDP-105(D) and BDP-95 HDMI and TOSLINK and COAX in Pure Direct mode.
The 105(D) has very good jitter measurements so, if there is a problem it would have to be in the AVR.


I do not thing referring to the differences simply as a different DAC since the digital and analog paths are very different.
Somewhere in the chain the sound produced is not the same.


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post #1802 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Love to see Amir pursuing his favorite hobby which may be inventing science. The audibility of jitter (FM distortion) is given in the scientificf literature by Zwicker and Fastl:



30 Hz modulation is far from being the lowest frequency and is also not the least likely to be detected. I chose it for one reason and one reason only which is that it showed up repeatedly in HDMI-related equipment tests, probably because it is a very commonly used video frame rate in A/V media.
I thought we covered this already Arny. 30Hz only showed up in one of my measurements. Here is the graph again:



See, only the Pioneer has a sideband at 30 Hz. You can't run off with that one frequency and say it is "showed up repeatedly." You have other measurements that you are drawing this conclusion from?

The key learning about all of these measurements is that every device is different. What bleeds into the DAC is completely system specific as the above shows.

If we zoom into those measurement with narrower band FFT in Paul Miller's data we see more problems:



Not only is there no 30 Hz component but we have a *ton of jitter* components. The graph you post is at 1 Khz tone, at a specific level of 80 db and a single modulation frequency. That is not at all a model of what is going on here.

Here is another set:



For pete's sake, how can you guys with a straight face defend the graph on the right??? I mean the question is not what jitter it has, but what it doesn't! It has a ton of specific jitter components. Then it has that widening of the skirt due to narrow-band random jitter. Then it has those ripples in there. Everything other than a single spike is distortion (you can see the single spike on the S/PDIF measurements on the left).

Here is yet another profile:



Now we have a series of spikes going pretty high level of -75 dbfs. Their sum total is not -75 dbfs. Energy is additive.

Now, I am not saying the audio experience is this ugly. I am saying we can't trivialize this topic by creating one example "jitter" which only I and one other person ran and say, "oh, here are the results of jitter audibility." Or throw around snippets from a book that are not representative of the measurements we are discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk
Furthermore I have offered to provide similar test files based on other jitter frequencies if people would agree to ABX them using any reasonable ABX comparator.
Thank you for the kind offer. I have provided the above examples. Please create the files with the completely profile of any of the above AVRs. Not just one frequency but the full profile.

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post #1803 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
When does jitter become "audible" when using HDMI vs. S/PDIF? Thanks in advance for your direct answer.
Arny is going to create those files for us. All you have to do then is do the listening test.

BTW, can you tell if I like brussel sprouts? Thanks in advance for your direct answer.

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post #1804 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
To me, "good engineering" would be to account for worst case scenarios.
Here is Zwicker and Fastl's just noticable (JND) jitter numbers recalculated into terms that we use in audio for a 1 KHz tone: For a 10 KHz tone, divide by 10,000.

Modulating frequency, Hz JND jitter in microseconds. Multiply by 1,000,000 to put into picoseconds
4 200000
8 252800
16 480000
32 640000
64 320000
128 256000
256 38400
512 51200
1024 102400

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Would you consider the files you generated representative of what was mentioned, or is this something different?
The files I generated had the following amounts of jitter:

File Name Jitter, seconds Jitter, Microseconds
30 Hz test max 0.1 0.00238864 238.86430233
30 Hz test severe 0.05 0.00095094 95.09359155
30 Hz test strong 0.025 0.00047660 47.65969408
30 Hz test noticable 0.0125 0.00023886 23.88643023
30 Hz test marginal 0.00625 0.00011972 11.97157389
30 Hz test threshold 0.00312 0.00003007 3.00712340
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post #1805 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Love to see Amir pursuing his favorite hobby which may be inventing science. The audibility of jitter (FM distortion) is given in the scientificf literature by Zwicker and Fastl:

As I read it, and any one else that bothers to actually read the figure explanation, it is median and interquartile ranges that are plotted...


This, IMHO, is the big problem with the bulk of the data laid forward here - it is difficult to draw the conclusion that "if it is good enough for 50% (75%, really) of the tested population, it is good enough for everyone". -In a way, it is like saying that since the interquartile time for a 100m sprint for males is about 14 seconds, it is impossible for any male to run faster than 14 seconds.

Note that I am not implying that "whatever has been presented in this thread is audible, blah blah blah", I am just saying that there is a problem with a lot of the data presented here since it is centred around medians and not the "top performers".

Then of course, do I believe that anyone will be able to do a 100m sprint in 1 second? -Hell No! 11 seconds -Hell Yeah! How that translates to audio, I am not equipped to tell, but as the old saying goes "there are Lies, Damned Lies, and finally there is statistics...
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post #1806 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
BTW, can you tell if I like brussel sprouts? Thanks in advance for your direct answer.
Yes... you love them grilled with EVOO, garlic, sea salt and fresh cracked white pepper.

Can you ever answer a question posed directly to you that doesn't involve a convoluted discussion?

And again... (from this and three other "jitter" threads):
When does jitter become "audible" when using HDMI vs. S/PDIF? Thanks in advance for your direct answer.
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post #1807 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi View Post
As I read it, and any one else that bothers to actually read the figure explanation, it is median and interquartile ranges that are plotted...
Indeed. I quoted this from the very same text Arny is using on how these data points come about in the recent jitter thread:

Because the results of the same person in different trials (intraindividual differences) as well as the results from different subjects (interindividual differences) can vary substantially, it is advisable to perform several runs of the same type of experiment and to average the data. This means that after an experiment a large number of data points are available for which an average value has to be calculated. The choice of the unit for the averaging procedure among the stimulus magnitude measures (i.e. among level, sound pressure, or sound intensity) plays a crucial role. An example is given in Fig. 1.10 which shows values of absolute thresholds for 8 subjects.

Such data is more than good enough to figure out the hearing of the general public. But it is not sufficient for detecting the hearing abilities of all listeners.

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post #1808 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi View Post
As I read it, and any one else that bothers to actually read the figure explanation, it is median and interquartile ranges that are plotted...


This, IMHO, is the big problem with the bulk of the data laid forward here - it is difficult to draw the conclusion that "if it is good enough for 50% (75%, really) of the tested population, it is good enough for everyone". -In a way, it is like saying that since the interquartile time for a 100m sprint for males is about 14 seconds, it is impossible for any male to run faster than 14 seconds.

Note that I am not implying that "whatever has been presented in this thread is audible, blah blah blah", I am just saying that there is a problem with a lot of the data presented here since it is centred around medians and not the "top performers".

Then of course, do I believe that anyone will be able to do a 100m sprint in 1 second? -Hell No! 11 seconds -Hell Yeah! How that translates to audio, I am not equipped to tell, but as the old saying goes "there are Lies, Damned Lies, and finally there is statistics...
You're doing an 'Amir' by leaving out the actual world record for the 100mtr sprint.
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post #1809 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Yes... you love them grilled with EVOO, garlic, sea salt and fresh cracked white pepper.

No, no, no no no no! You boil them until al dente, and then you drain them off and toss them with a tiny bit of butter and sea salt... The garlic, EVOO and the white pepper (wtf?!!) will ruin the experience. Period.

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post #1810 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Yes... you love them grilled with EVOO, garlic, sea salt and fresh cracked white pepper.
I am allergic to garlic so I wouldn't use that. Grilled they are OK but not something I would make again after trying it a couple of times. So you are wrong in predicting that I "love them." See, the answer is only known because I have experienced it. You certainly could not predict it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rat
Can you ever answer a question posed directly to you that doesn't involve a convoluted discussion?
What is the solution to world peace? Can you answer directly without a convoluted discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rat
And again... (from this and three other "jitter" threads):
When does jitter become "audible" when using HDMI vs. S/PDIF? Thanks in advance for your direct answer.
When does it Ratman? You don't like my answer so let's hear yours. Thanks in advance for your direct answer.

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post #1811 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
You're doing an 'Amir' by leaving out the actual world record for the 100mtr sprint.

Well, thing is,(pretty embarrassing actually) I actually don't know the world record for male 100m sprint -I do however know the median and interquartile ranges... Since you seem like a guy that is equally interested in sprints and audibility, and I am not as smart as you, perhaps you could extrapolate the world record for audibility from arny's graph, and also explain how you did it?

Thanx in advance.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The files I generated had the following amounts of jitter:

File Name Jitter, seconds Jitter, Microseconds
30 Hz test max 0.1 0.00238864 238.86430233
30 Hz test severe 0.05 0.00095094 95.09359155
30 Hz test strong 0.025 0.00047660 47.65969408
30 Hz test noticable 0.0125 0.00023886 23.88643023
30 Hz test marginal 0.00625 0.00011972 11.97157389
30 Hz test threshold 0.00312 0.00003007 3.00712340
I believe the microseconds conversion is off by one decimal.

Amir, you're not paying attention.
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You are very eloquent.
You never answer a "real" question.
You have not answered the same question presented in this and other threads.

That make one consider the credibility of the dog that barks loudest.

And...... really sorry about that garlic thing you have going on! Hopefully you don't have a gluten problem also.
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post #1814 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 02:55 PM
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--- When does jitter become "audible"?

When you hear it.

--- What is the solution to world peace?

World War?

--- Brussels Sprouts?

Yum...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi View Post
Well, thing is,(pretty embarrassing actually) I actually don't know the world record for male 100m sprint -I do however know the median and interquartile ranges... Since you seem like a guy that is equally interested in sprints and audibility, and I am not as smart as you, perhaps you could extrapolate the world record for audibility from arny's graph, and also explain how you did it?

Thanx in advance.
I ABX'd his file and could not hear a difference with the last most difficult file.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_1...rd_progression


At least the golden shoes do the running. The Golden ears are a no show so far.
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post #1816 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fotto View Post
I believe the microseconds conversion is off by one decimal.

Amir, you're not paying attention.
Sorry, I am ignoring it all. With two digit IQ I have to meter how much I try to stuff in my brain as to not overfill it...

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post #1817 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
I ABX'd his file and could not hear a difference with the last most difficult file.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_1...rd_progression


At least the golden shoes do the running. The Golden ears are a no show so far.

So, you're saying that *you* currently are the world record holder in "audibility"?!? Can I add you on Facebook?


Just kidding -The reason I am asking you this question is not because I am a bully or stupid (I am actually a certified woos according to my wife), but because that it is pretty much the crux of the matter. Amirm can play the "reasonable doubt" card as long as "you guys" present median data!


And frankly, the only people actually trying to present peer reviewed data to prove a point so far is pretty much only arny and amirm. There's a major bunch of people here that is basically just reburping what others have said, but with no substance matter to back it up -when I was in he army we called it (not sure how to translate it, but "in the rear with the gear", i.e. you're verbal and tough as long as you don't have to do the dirty work) -just for the record I ended up never actually having to see action for real, but I have the outmost respect for you who had to.

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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
And again... (from this and three other "jitter" threads):
When does jitter become "audible" when using HDMI vs. S/PDIF? Thanks in advance for your direct answer.
As explained to you and others at length in this thread, this is not a question that can be answered directly. The only honest answer is "it depends." It depends on the frequencies of the jitter-related sidebands. It depends on the levels of those sidebands. It depends on the masking properties of the music being played. It depends on the jitter-rejection and clock regeneration of the AVR.

And finally, it depends on the listening abilities and sensitivity of the listener. The latter, provided the listener doesn't have hearing damage, is a learned ability. If you don't know what to listen for, you may well miss something that a more experienced listener will not. Then, when you are trained in what to listen for, your sensitivity increases.

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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
--- When does jitter become "audible"?

When you hear it.
For those who design things (audio is engineering) as well as buy them, they want to know what number(s) that corresponds to. But, of course, we never get a straight answer from Amir.
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post #1820 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by robertr View Post
for those who design things (audio is engineering) as well as buy them, they want to know what number(s) that corresponds to.
22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob
but, of course, we never get a straight answer from amir.
54.

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22.


54.
86

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post #1822 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 04:03 PM
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There is no problem with median data. Humans with a healthy and similar physiology just average out in similar circumstances. No single human is going to sprint twice as fast and/or has an extended hearing range out into 40kHz and/or tolerate 120dB comfortably and simultaneously is able to hear sounds near the audible threshold..


On the other end of the median scale there exist totally deaf people but they are ruled out of the testing for obvious reasons anyway.


Regarding hearing abilities the upper and lower limits are mapped out decades ago and nobody turned up proving these wrong so far.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
86
You are my kind of man! So are these two dudes in this (real) election debate:


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Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
There is no problem with median data. Humans with a healthy and similar physiology just average out in similar circumstances. No single human is going to sprint twice as fast and/or has an extended hearing range out into 40kHz and/or tolerate 120dB comfortably and simultaneously is able to hear sounds near the audible threshold..


On the other end of the median scale there exist totally deaf people but they are ruled out of the testing for obvious reasons anyway.


Regarding hearing abilities the upper and lower limits are mapped out decades ago and nobody turned up proving these wrong so far.
Yeah, well that's all fine and dandy, I guess, but can you elaborate on how you got to that conclusion from arny's data? Can you present any data that back up what you are stating? Not playing devil's advocate, here, but you got to admit it sure sounds like a *shitload* of bullcrap, with no references or such to back up your claims? Yes?

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
86
Come on you guys, the answer is 42. Always has been, always will be. Deep Thought said so.

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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Come on you guys, the answer is 42. Always has been, always will be. Deep Thought said so.

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...but what was the question, again?!!

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Ah more bait.


A spectral plot of Arny's test signal is posted pages ago where you can see the level of the 30Hz jitter sidebands.
Gives a good indication of how the threshold lies in relation to the various avr/hdmi jitter graphs posted.


You can look it up if you want to.
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post #1828 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

You can look it up if you want to.

Well, Frank, that answer can't get much more "I'm in the rear with the gear" I you ask me... it sounds pretty much like the kind of answer someone would present as a last resort when caught with the pants down. Without any sort of substance, some may say...

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...but what was the question, again?!!
No-one knows. The Earth, which was the computer Deep Thought designed to formulate the question, was destroyed by the Vogons to make way for an interstellar bypass.

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