Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 62 - AVS Forum
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post #1831 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 06:31 PM
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This thread has now reached the theatre of the absurd.
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post #1832 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
That is not my definition but let's leave it at that.


No. It means what it means in the paper.


I didn't generate any files. Arny did.
This is why I didn't bother asking you, Amir. You can't give an honest answer.
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post #1833 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
As explained to you and others at length in this thread, this is not a question that can be answered directly. The only honest answer is "it depends." It depends on the frequencies of the jitter-related sidebands. It depends on the levels of those sidebands. It depends on the masking properties of the music being played. It depends on the jitter-rejection and clock regeneration of the AVR.

And finally, it depends on the listening abilities and sensitivity of the listener. The latter, provided the listener doesn't have hearing damage, is a learned ability. If you don't know what to listen for, you may well miss something that a more experienced listener will not. Then, when you are trained in what to listen for, your sensitivity increases.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
You can say the same things about white noise, yet I don't see engineers working towards -200db s/n ratios.

How about establishing what could be a practical worst case scenario and work from there? Or is jitter the "dark matter" of audio engineers?

Another aspect of good engineering is "defining the problem", yet some here are quick to dismiss any attempt at doing just that.
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post #1834 of 2920 Old 07-08-2014, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post
I believe the microseconds conversion is off by one decimal.

Amir, you're not paying attention.
Correct on both counts. Thanks for the correction.

Corrected numbers:

30 Hz test max 0.1 0.00238864 2388.64302332
30 Hz test severe 0.05 0.00095094 950.93591548
30 Hz test strong 0.025 0.00047660 476.59694083
30 Hz test noticable 0.0125 0.00023886 238.86430233
30 Hz test marginal 0.00625 0.00011972 119.71573890
30 Hz test threshold 0.00312 0.00003007 30.07123402

But these seem correct:

Modulating frequency, Hz JND jitter,microseconds
4 200000
8 252800
16 480000
32 640000
64 320000
128 256000
256 38400
512 51200
1024 102400

The first thing that should be noticed is that the JNDs are above measured in microseconds while measured jitter is often given in picoseconds. There is a factor of 1 million between the two sets of numbers. The jitter being measured is over a million times smaller than the jitter that is audible. Secondly, the JNDs are measured in 10,000s and 100,000s of microseconds. Warning bells should be going off!

Last edited by arnyk; 07-09-2014 at 02:05 AM.
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post #1835 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
As explained to you and others at length in this thread, this is not a question that can be answered directly.
The answer is not simple, but it is knowable. Of course the very idea that any measurement means anything is according to the subjectivists, a vile lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
The only honest answer is "it depends."
There are many things in this life that are dependent on other influences, and we still think they are knowable. For example, income taxes are dependent on income, fuel economy is dependent on speed, and appropriate body weight is dependent on height.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
It depends on the frequencies of the jitter-related sidebands. It depends on the levels of those sidebands. It depends on the masking properties of the music being played.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
It depends on the jitter-rejection and clock regeneration of the AVR.
Now a cause is being conflated with effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
And finally, it depends on the listening abilities and sensitivity of the listener. The latter, provided the listener doesn't have hearing damage, is a learned ability. If you don't know what to listen for, you may well miss something that a more experienced listener will not. Then, when you are trained in what to listen for, your sensitivity increases.
Now the characteristics of the evaluator are being conflated with the effect that we are trying to evaluate.

Its always good when our best people are capable of thinking clearly, but for the above, some hits and some misses.
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post #1836 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi View Post
Well, Frank, that answer can't get much more "I'm in the rear with the gear" I you ask me... it sounds pretty much like the kind of answer someone would present as a last resort when caught with the pants down. Without any sort of substance, some may say...

Recognized the baiting attempt a couple of post ago. Since you showed any substance so far why would I have to.
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post #1837 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
Recognized the baiting attempt a couple of post ago. Since you showed any substance so far why would I have to.
BTW Frank there are some sample-rate related files posted at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l86f7oc7c...ww14Mrta1zs3Ca .

Since you did such a nice job on the jitter files...
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post #1838 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
You can say the same things about white noise, yet I don't see engineers working towards -200db s/n ratios.
Of course not, but you can still identify good engineering in designs that keep the component's noise floor as low as is achievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
How about establishing what could be a practical worst case scenario and work from there?
The only way an engineer can be certain that his design will not introduce jitter-related artifacts that will be audible to some listeners some of the time on some kinds of music under some circumstances is to practice good design. Some of the AVR receivers whose measurements were published earlier in this thread do not demonstrate that level of engineering expertise.

Some other products did do so, and if good engineering does not cost any more than inadequate engineering, why should that fact not be used to recommend one product over another? The alternative would be to subject every product to a possibly endless series of tests where the audibility of its particular jitter signature in every possible circumstance is examined with every kind of music with a large population of listeners having a wide range of experience, training, and hearing sensitivity. The third option, which has been expressed by some posters to this thread, which simply to declare, without any evidence, that high levels of jitter-related artifacts are irrelevant is based on faith, not science.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Last edited by stereoeditor; 07-09-2014 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #1839 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
You can say the same things about white noise, yet I don't see engineers working towards -200db s/n ratios.
Depends who and what. One way to evaluate SNRs is to give them as dB over the theoretical maximum possible. That is sometimes called Noise Figure. Noise figures in the 6-10 dB range are not uncommon.

As I keep saying which makes the Golden Ears cringe is that once you get a 100 dB SNR, you are seriously deep into diminishing returns. Given that the Golden Ears ooh and ahh over LPs with 65 dB max SNR and tubed power amps some with 80 dB SNR, its not like they are falling over themselves for gear with really good SNRs.

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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
How about establishing what could be a practical worst case scenario and work from there?
That would be rational! ;-) However, no joke really.

One of the keys of customer control (and remember I'm a graduate of IBM's school of Customer Control and FUD from back in the days when they were both at the top of their game and also the top of the game) is to keep as many people as far into the dark as possible while simultaneously appearing to shed as much light as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Or is jitter the "dark matter" of audio engineers?
It appears to be an good study of FUD. How many papers have been written about jitter without even just one purpose-built reliable listening test to back it up? Nice work if you can get it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Another aspect of good engineering is "defining the problem", yet some here are quick to dismiss any attempt at doing just that.
Check the Golden Ear's Marketing Bible AKA "Obfuscation and FUD for Fun and Profit" ;-) The author was Harley, Atkinson or Majidimehr, I can't remember which... ;-)
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post #1840 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
BTW Frank there are some sample-rate related files posted at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l86f7oc7c...ww14Mrta1zs3Ca .

Since you did such a nice job on the jitter files...

Got them,


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post #1841 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 08:14 AM
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First ABX results with Jingling keys:


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 14:17:03
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
14:17:03 : Test started.
17:07:14 : 00/01 100.0%
17:07:41 : 00/02 100.0%
17:08:23 : 00/03 100.0%
17:09:27 : 00/04 100.0%
17:09:45 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 0/4 (100.0%)


My upper hearing range is about 14kHz. I doubt further training will do much good.
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post #1842 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know that I can even hear 14 Khz! Yet these are my results as i post in the other thread:

--------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Here is the link for my idea of killer 24/96 .wav files files for using ABX to hear potential audible differences due to differences in bandpass and resolution:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l86f7oc7c...ww14Mrta1zs3Ca
Good morning Arny. I was going to say "thank you" for posting these files but after having to listen to jingling keys so many times while our two dogs barked and barked away, not sure I am that thankful .

Here are my results:

32 Khz versus 96 Khz
=================================
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:10:07

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

06:10:07 : Test started.
06:10:38 : 01/01 50.0%
06:10:50 : 02/02 25.0%
06:11:07 : 03/03 12.5%
06:11:23 : 04/04 6.3%
06:11:36 : 05/05 3.1%
06:12:00 : 06/06 1.6%
06:12:14 : 07/07 0.8%
06:12:26 : 08/08 0.4%
06:12:38 : 09/09 0.2%
06:12:49 : 10/10 0.1%
06:13:00 : 11/11 0.0%
06:13:23 : 12/12 0.0%
06:13:42 : 13/13 0.0%
06:13:48 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/13 (0.0%)


44.1 versus 96 Khz
---------------------------------

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:32:02

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

06:32:02 : Test started.
06:33:07 : 01/01 50.0%
06:33:17 : 02/02 25.0%
06:33:24 : 03/03 12.5%
06:33:36 : 04/04 6.3%
06:33:47 : 05/05 3.1%
06:33:58 : 06/06 1.6%
06:34:12 : 07/07 0.8%
06:34:15 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/7 (0.8%)

===============================

I don't know why Foobar stopped all of a sudden at 7 trials on 44.1 vs 96. While I could clearly hear the difference between the files, I would want to run more trials later as I did not expect to be able to tell them apart this easily.

Anyway, how did you do Arny?

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Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
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post #1843 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 08:36 AM
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post #1844 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
that high levels of jitter-related artifacts are irrelevant is based on faith, not science.
What's wrong with "high levels of jitter-related artifacts"?
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post #1845 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
What's wrong with "high levels of jitter-related artifacts"?
The same thing that is wrong with distortion.
At some point, it is objectionable. It could be argued that there is consensus about audible distortion.
Not all distortion is equally audible or objectionable.


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post #1846 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
At some point,
Where is that point and how do you figure that out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
it is objectionable.
Is that what you discovered when you got to that point?
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post #1847 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
First ABX results with Jingling keys:


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 14:17:03
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
14:17:03 : Test started.
17:07:14 : 00/01 100.0%
17:07:41 : 00/02 100.0%
17:08:23 : 00/03 100.0%
17:09:27 : 00/04 100.0%
17:09:45 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 0/4 (100.0%)



My upper hearing range is about 14kHz. I doubt further training will do much good.
Somehow I confused A and B. I was wrongfully assuming that the first selected file ends up under button A. Turns out the order is alphabetically after all.


I mainly listen to X and Y and choose which file has the hires 'chracteristics' I listen for and select X=A or Y=A.
I was acing it almost halfway through the test after all.


Will try again later as my concentration time span is severely limited at the moment.
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post #1848 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
Where is that point and how do you figure that out? Is that what you discovered when you got to that point?
I have not the tools and rigor to make that determination.
So far, I prefer the analog outs from my Oppo's over LPCM over HDMI to the Onkyo PR-SC5507, Matantz AV8801, and Yamaha A820.
I have been not been happy with LCPM over HDMI.


Like you, I am looking for answers.


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post #1849 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
I mainly listen to X and Y and choose which file has the hires 'chracteristics' I listen for and select X=A or Y=A.
I was acing it almost halfway through the test after all.
So instead of instead of listening to A and B along with X and Y during the ABX test, you just listen to X and Y during the test and try to match that to what you remember you thought A and/or B sounded like before the test? If you do the former, there's absolutely no need to remember anything about A or B. And if you do the latter, I don't think your're conducting a valid ABX test.
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post #1850 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 11:17 AM
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Makes no difference for the statistics. In this tool X is always the opposite file of Y.
I either match A to X or Y or match X to B or A.


In an ABX test with hardware A and B are known entities.
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post #1851 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 11:29 AM
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...but you didn't answer my question. Do you do the former or the latter as described in my previous post?
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post #1852 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 11:44 AM
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It's both, it depends, if I'm not sure about the audible difference anymore I listen to A and B to refresh the memory so to speak (former). When the difference is more obvious I can go by memory.
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post #1853 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 12:07 PM
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A and B along with X and Y I listen from slightly louder 'sparkle' in the hirez file. (Difficult to dicribe the sound)


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 20:49:23
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
20:49:23 : Test started.
20:51:10 : 01/01 50.0%
20:52:25 : 02/02 25.0%
20:52:46 : 03/03 12.5%
20:53:12 : 04/04 6.3%
20:53:58 : 05/05 3.1%
20:54:20 : 06/06 1.6%
20:54:47 : 07/07 0.8%
20:55:25 : 08/08 0.4%
20:55:49 : 09/09 0.2%
20:56:16 : 10/10 0.1%
20:56:44 : 11/11 0.0%
20:57:15 : 12/12 0.0%
20:57:23 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)
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post #1854 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 12:08 PM
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Best bet is to subscribe to a magazine, enjoy the bickering here and only purchase digital gear based on the recommendations of one (or a few) individuals.

Based on what I've read for months, if you don't want to experience "jitter" when listening to 2-channel audio, don't use HDMI because it could be audible. (even though no one will commit where/when it does become audible).

YMMV
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post #1855 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
...
The first thing that should be noticed is that the JNDs are above measured in microseconds while measured jitter is often given in picoseconds. There is a factor of 1 million between the two sets of numbers. The jitter being measured is over a million times smaller than the jitter that is audible. Secondly, the JNDs are measured in 10,000s and 100,000s of microseconds. Warning bells should be going off!
I am wondering as I don't have the F & Z paper if it mentions what the lowest numbers in the test group achieved? Perhaps that could be the actual limit based at least on some sample size.
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post #1856 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The same thing that is wrong with distortion.
At some point, it is objectionable. It could be argued that there is consensus about audible distortion.
Not all distortion is equally audible or objectionable.
Agreed. While the Subjectivists Golden Ears and high end journalists won't admit is that some distortion is even inaudible. Their response to this concept based on what is on this thread is to say that audibility is far too difficult for ordinary or even extraordinary mortals such as themselves to understand.
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post #1857 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
I am wondering as I don't have the F & Z paper if it mentions what the lowest numbers in the test group achieved? Perhaps that could be the actual limit based at least on some sample size.
Anybody who wants the F&Z book can have it. Its a free download on the web:

http://www.autistici.org/2000-maniax...o%20Fastl).pdf

One of the concepts of the kind of statistics that we are talking about is that the test results follow a normal distribution.



To put this into the context of the JNDs for jitter, what cumulative percentage of all listeners hear 0.1% of the mean amount of jitter? Looking above, its something well below 0.1% or one in a thousand.

Now we then realize that the difference between the JNDs found by Zwicker and Fastl and the amount of jitter found by various reviewers differs not by 1 in a thousand, but one in a million or more.
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post #1858 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
First ABX results with Jingling keys:


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 14:17:03
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
14:17:03 : Test started.
17:07:14 : 00/01 100.0%
17:07:41 : 00/02 100.0%
17:08:23 : 00/03 100.0%
17:09:27 : 00/04 100.0%
17:09:45 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 0/4 (100.0%)


My upper hearing range is about 14kHz. I doubt further training will do much good.
I added files downsampled to 22 KHz (11 KHz brick wall) and 16 KHz (8 KHz brick wall).

Last edited by arnyk; 07-09-2014 at 01:34 PM.
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post #1859 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Like you, I am looking for answers.
Then you could have asked stereoeditor about it.
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post #1860 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
Then you could have asked stereoeditor about it.
I am not sure why you need my help, but here you go:

Stereoeditor,

Do you have any guidelines where you believe jitter becomes audible?

Without naming names, can you hear jitter related distortion listening the LPCM over HDMI on mid-fi AVR's ?

- Rich

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