Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 63 - AVS Forum
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post #1861 of 2920 Old 07-09-2014, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Best bet is to subscribe to a magazine, enjoy the bickering here and only purchase digital gear based on the recommendations of one (or a few) individuals.

Based on what I've read for months, if you don't want to experience "jitter" when listening to 2-channel audio, don't use HDMI because it could be audible. (even though no one will commit where/when it does become audible).

YMMV
Come on Ratman, after 1860+ posts that's all you got out of this?

For me, I have learned the following:

1) JFK is NOT dead (perhaps a swap is in order)
2) You may or may not be able to detect jitter. There are way too many influences at play to say yes or no.
3) There was NO moon landing...it was staged.
4) Amir has two Aliens chained in his basement and subjects them to listening tests where they DO detect jitter (Hell yeah they hear it, they're friggin Aliens). He just wont fess up about it.
5) I want to be more listening educated, but I'm too lazy to download and test Arny's files, but "I'm a gonna do it" soon.
6) I will continue to use HDMI for all my source connections, but "I'm a gonna do it" soon in terms of trying out the S/PDIF (or SP/DIF) connection.
7) Amir and Arny like to argue.
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Last edited by fotto; 07-09-2014 at 03:48 PM.
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post #1862 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
This thread has now reached the theatre of the absurd.
You must admit, we have quite a turn of events. We went from idle chatter to potentially having proven the thesis of the thread with Arny's test showing that in my case I was able to distinguish 44 Khz sampling from 96 Khz in 7 out of 7 cases with possibility of being right of 99.2%.

And this is a test proposed and created by Arny. Yet the results dispute his views and that of other vocal members in this thread and elsewhere.

I must admit, I didn't think we would make so much forward progress all of a sudden . But here we are.

I hope we see others test their results which would then enable us to tell if there are differences between individuals.
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post #1863 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I must admit, I didn't think we would make so much forward progress all of a sudden
That would be a distorted description of what went on. You and stereoeditor still haven't answered the audibility questions of jitter level.
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post #1864 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
You and stereoeditor still haven't answered the audibility questions of jitter level.
I offered a detailed answer to that question a couple of days ago. I thought what I wrote was clear; did you not comprehend what I wrote?

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post #1865 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I offered a detailed answer to that question a couple of days ago.
You skirted around and avoided a direct answer.
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post #1866 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You must admit, we have quite a turn of events. We went from idle chatter to potentially having proven the thesis of the thread with Arny's test showing that in my case I was able to distinguish 44 Khz sampling from 96 Khz in 7 out of 7 cases with possibility of being right of 99.2%.

And this is a test proposed and created by Arny. Yet the results dispute his views and that of other vocal members in this thread and elsewhere.

I must admit, I didn't think we would make so much forward progress all of a sudden . But here we are.

I hope we see others test their results which would then enable us to tell if there are differences between individuals.
How would you contrast the musical energy of jingling, jangling keys with mainstream music? I realize mainstream is quite vague but maybe pick an opera or a well regarded symphony or solo instrument of your choice.

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post #1867 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
I offered a detailed answer to that question a couple of days ago.
You skirted around and avoided a direct answer.
I am sorry you didn't understand what I wrote. I wasn't aware I was using so much jargon that a non-engineer would be confused. Here again is my answer to the question "When does jitter become "audible" when using HDMI vs. S/PDIF?"

This is not a question that can be answered directly. The only honest answer is "it depends." It depends on the frequencies of the jitter-related sidebands. It depends on the levels of those sidebands. It depends on the masking properties of the music being played. It depends on the jitter-rejection and clock regeneration of the AVR.

And finally, it depends on the listening abilities and sensitivity of the listener. The latter, provided the listener doesn't have hearing damage, is a learned ability. If you don't know what to listen for, you may well miss something that a more experienced listener will not. Then, when you are trained in what to listen for, your sensitivity increases.

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Last edited by stereoeditor; 07-10-2014 at 12:42 PM.
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post #1868 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I offered a detailed answer to that question a couple of days ago. I thought what I wrote was clear; did you not comprehend what I wrote?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
You skirted around and avoided a direct answer.
Well, not really. I don't think that all measurements can be reduced to a single value. Manufacturers do that because it's easy and can allow their marketing department to point at one number as somehow being singular merit of quality or performance.

Take for example THD which is often really a combination of THD + noise. Is an amp with a THD of 0.5% better than one that has 0.02%? IOW could I hear that distortion? Without considering the spectrum, the various harmonics, that's a tough call. From what I've seen, most amps have a tailing harmonic distortion profile but if that's true for the first amp but the second amp has something like primarily 5th order distortion there'd be something that troubled you about it.

With jitter, especially as pertains to receivers, what the typical spectrum looks like is unclear. Myself, I haven't seen enough graphs to confidently say most jitter looks like this or like that. I'm talking about HDMI here. Amir has said, or I think he did, that most likely the jitter spectra he's presented are likely I innocuous. But I'm not so sure.

The reason I'm not so sure is because of a few reasons.
  • The receivers are being tested while they're not hooked up to anything.
    Amir observed that just adding a cable not hooked up to anything changed things.
    JA found in some review that turning off the display lights made a significant difference.
    What happens when an LCD or Plasma TV is hooked up and running?
    Does being hooked up to speakers and/or a sub screw with the jitter profile?
    What about engaging room correction?
    What if the receiver is also powering another zone?

IMO, the measurements done by Miller, S&V, Stereophile, AH, or whomever haven't provided any information on in situ measurements. They're simply too idealized and not reflective of real world use. I think until such time as we get a better handle on things we are unclear how jitter and maybe other measurements even are affected when the receiver is in actual use. If we find that things are more or less the same, then Amir's statement that it's likely not audible seems reasonable. OTOH, if we find that the width under the central frequency starts looking like Kim Kardashian's fat ass, with a whole bunch of spuria and now that singular jitter number is 100x or greater, then it's time to say, hmmmm.
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post #1869 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Take for example THD which is often really a combination of THD + noise. Is an amp with a THD of 0.5% better than one that has 0.02%? IOW could I hear that distortion? Without considering the spectrum, the various harmonics, that's a tough call. From what I've seen, most amps have a tailing harmonic distortion profile but if that's true for the first amp but the second amp has something like primarily 5th order distortion there'd be something that troubled you about it.

From this review of the Lexicon RX-7:


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power...12/page-2.html


Quote:
"And at 20 volts, IMD was actually less, at 0.014%. If you look at the peaks around the 2 kHz fundamental, they are higher than the ones in the 5 volts graph. The reason the distortion number is less is because the fundamental is higher in relation to the distortion peaks than in the 5 volts test. Note also that there are more IM peaks around the 4 kHz, 6 kHz, 8 kHz regions (multiples of 2 kHz) than in the 5 volt test, but IM measurements only take into account the peaks at ± 250 Hz around the fundamental (2 kHz), so this is why showing the actual graph is important, rather than just giving a number."

So, IM distortion past +/- 250HZ is not included. It seems to me, that IM in the audible range matters.
This is why I would like to see more multi-tone distortion measurements.


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post #1870 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Amir observed that just adding a cable not hooked up to anything changed things.
JA found in some review that turning off the display lights made a significant difference.
Just a quick note that I *did* have the outputs of all the AVRs drive my projector using HDMI. Without the display the source may not be recognized (the AVR is a "repeater"). And of course my laptop feeding the bits using HDMI was the source. So the end to end chain was there.

And here is what I wrote in the article where these graphs were included regarding audibility of the distortions I measured:

A Note on Audibility
I have shown you a lot of graphs but it would be unfair to leave them be as is. A lot of the distortions we see with HDMI are centered close to our main excitation frequency. When the distortions are close to a loud signal, and our source certainly is one in this case, they can’t be heard. So most likely these are not audible distortions. As we get farther from the main tones, the spikes can reach higher than level of audibility and the chance of this occurring with HDMI is higher than with S/PDIF.


Yes, I leave the door open ever so slightly for audible distortion . Reason is simple: as you said, I only have measurements of a handful of devices. There may be AVRs that measure worse and in a way that masking is not effective on them.

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post #1871 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 12:07 PM
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The new AVS/AIX HRA test files are now available here. Check it out!
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post #1872 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 12:37 PM
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It pains me, Amir, to suggest that more work needs to be done because I'm here on the sidelines laying out ideas and I'd hate for it to come across that I'm doing it because I've got a bitchin' fetish.

So you tried it with a projector which I assume was on. So does it matter if it were hooked up to a plasma or LCD?
Were you running speakers and/or a sub?
Room correction engaged?

Sorry for the bitchin'.

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post #1873 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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It pains me, Amir, to suggest that more work needs to be done because I'm here on the sidelines laying out ideas and I'd hate for it to come across that I'm doing it because I've got a bitchin' fetish.
No worries .

Quote:
Originally Posted by chu
So you tried it with a projector which I assume was on. So does it matter if it were hooked up to a plasma or LCD?
Yes, the projector was on. As to it mattering with other devices, the type won't matter. But each specific device might given the fact that HDMI electrically couples all the devices. Where my workbench is I only had the projector in the theater nearby to drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chu
Were you running speakers and/or a sub?
Oh, no. I would have gone deaf and gotten a ton of complaints from family members playing those tones over and over again . Just to be clear, I measured the pre-amp output of the AVRs, not the amplifier output. I turned off all processing including bass management so the response was flat through the AVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chu
Room correction engaged?
Definitely not. Again that would have changed the system response.

This project was to essentially test the front-end of the AVR: HDMI receiver all the way to the DAC. In other words I treated them like "processors."

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post #1874 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I am sorry you didn't understand what I wrote. I wasn't aware I was using so much jargon that a non-engineer would be confused. Here again is my answer to the question "When does jitter become "audible" when using HDMI vs. S/PDIF?"

This is not a question that can be answered directly. The only honest answer is "it depends." It depends on the frequencies of the jitter-related sidebands. It depends on the levels of those sidebands. It depends on the masking properties of the music being played. It depends on the jitter-rejection and clock regeneration of the AVR.

And finally, it depends on the listening abilities and sensitivity of the listener. The latter, provided the listener doesn't have hearing damage, is a learned ability. If you don't know what to listen for, you may well miss something that a more experienced listener will not. Then, when you are trained in what to listen for, your sensitivity increases.
What you call "my answer to the question" was skirting around the question. What you posted was bunch of excuses for not having a direct answer.
Quote:
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This is not a question that can be answered directly.
Do you know this through experiments that you've conducted? If you have, would you mind sharing how the experiment was set up and what was used?

Thanks for your forthcoming direct answer.
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post #1875 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 02:39 PM
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Ya just gotta laugh.
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At whom?

I'll be back later...


equitech 1.5RQ > digits > miniDSP > behringer > benchmark > krell pre and monoblocks > reQuest
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post #1877 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
What you call "my answer to the question" was skirting around the question. What you posted was bunch of excuses for not having a direct answer.
Your question is the audio engineering equivalent of "how long is a piece of string." There is no "direct" answer. Do you really not grasp that simple fact?

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post #1878 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The plot thickens!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thank you Scott! Much appreciated the effort you have put on this project Scott. For the first time I feel that the forum is moving forward toward better understanding of this topic.

I hope you don't mind but I thought I share my foobar results of the first tracks here: On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2/B2


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 18:50:44

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_B2.wav

18:50:44 : Test started.
18:51:25 : 00/01 100.0%
18:51:38 : 01/02 75.0%
18:51:47 : 02/03 50.0%
18:51:55 : 03/04 31.3%
18:52:05 : 04/05 18.8%
18:52:21 : 05/06 10.9%
18:52:32 : 06/07 6.3%
18:52:43 : 07/08 3.5%
18:52:59 : 08/09 2.0%
18:53:10 : 09/10 1.1%
18:53:19 : 10/11 0.6%
18:53:23 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/11 (0.6%)


It took me one set of trials to find the right segment. Then I lost it because of the way foobar forgets what start/stop locations you had picked when you save the results. Anyway I found another segment which was just as revealing very quickly so there are plenty of opportunities to find the difference.

As you can see, I could find the difference in tracks and vote in about 10 seconds and that included listening to the two segments. Therefore this is no subtle difference where I had to squint and keep playing back and forth. I classified the differences in Track A and B, and then by doing the same in X and Y I could easily vote the right away.

The testing was on my HP Z1 laptop, using standard analog audio out driving my ancient etymotic earphones. Listening was in our living room with the TV playing at low volume, a loud fan whirling away and the kids talking. In other words, it was the proverbial walking five miles uphill, in snow, and with no shoes!

Seriously, the differences in fidelity do not require fancy hardware. The differences were all in the audible band in my opinion and not ultrasonics. My hearing doesn't even go to 12 Khz these days. Yet I could easily detect the fidelity differences as you can tell from listening results. Perhaps this is mostly due to 16 vs 24 bit depth.

I really wish more people would run this test. I suspect it would show that our ability to hear such differences are not the same. If so, that would go at the core of the disagreement on this front.

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post #1879 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Just adding on, I am using standard Windows Audio stack set to 24 bit/96 Khz. So there is additional dithering being added to the data before it goes to the audio "codec" (meaning audio hardware in this use).

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post #1880 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Your question is the audio engineering equivalent of "how long is a piece of string." There is no "direct" answer. Do you really not grasp that simple fact?
What about my other question, "Do you know this through experiments that you've conducted?"? I'm just curious about where you are coming from. So, where does your "answer" come from?
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post #1881 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 07:19 PM
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stereoeditor: Perhaps you didn't see my question posted yesterday so I'll ask again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
that high levels of jitter-related artifacts are irrelevant is based on faith, not science.
What's wrong with "high levels of jitter-related artifacts"?
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post #1882 of 2920 Old 07-10-2014, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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The third track was pretty easy. First segment picked was quite revealing:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 21:01:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_B2.wav

21:01:16 : Test started.
21:02:11 : 01/01 50.0%
21:02:20 : 02/02 25.0%
21:02:28 : 03/03 12.5%
21:02:38 : 04/04 6.3%
21:02:47 : 05/05 3.1%
21:02:56 : 06/06 1.6%
21:03:06 : 07/07 0.8%
21:03:16 : 08/08 0.4%
21:03:26 : 09/09 0.2%
21:03:45 : 10/10 0.1%
21:03:54 : 11/11 0.0%
21:04:11 : 12/12 0.0%
21:04:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)



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post #1883 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
What about my other question, "Do you know this through experiments that you've conducted?"
I don't see that I am obliged to conduct my own experiments to confirm or deny everything I learn from acknowledged experts in a field, ie, people like the members of the Audio Engineering Society Technical Committee whose comments on the potential audibility of HDMI-induced jitter has been quoted earlier in this thread. Especially when those comments, out in the real world and not in the bubble of a Web forum, are not considered controversial.

As you asked this question, I believe it appropriate to ask you if you have you performed any experiments to show that those experts' comments were incorrect?

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post #1884 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You must admit, we have quite a turn of events. We went from idle chatter to potentially having proven the thesis of the thread with Arny's test showing that in my case I was able to distinguish 44 Khz sampling from 96 Khz in 7 out of 7 cases with possibility of being right of 99.2%.

And this is a test proposed and created by Arny. Yet the results dispute his views and that of other vocal members in this thread and elsewhere.
I did some listening tests of my own and was able to hear where IM and/or clipping was affecting my results on at least one of the computers that I used. The results were of course perfect detection. But, it was a cheat. unintentional though it was.

I'm working on a listening test that clearly identifies HF nonlinear distoriton in the monitoring chain if it exists.

I haven't been posting much lately because my day job and family responsibilities are intruding.
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post #1885 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I don't see that I am obliged to conduct my own experiments to confirm or deny everything I learn from acknowledged experts in a field, ie, people like the members of the Audio Engineering Society Technical Committee whose comments on the potential audibility of HDMI-induced jitter has been quoted earlier in this thread. Especially when those comments, out in the real world and not in the bubble of a Web forum, are not considered controversial.

As you asked this question, I believe it appropriate to ask you if you have you performed any experiments to show that those experts' comments were incorrect?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
"Bubble" does not accurately describe a community with a million members from varied backgrounds. The conversation in this thread might exist in a bubble; however, AVS Forum is the real world. As I've previously noted, it's real-world experiences in AVS members' basements that led me to doubt that the high-end crowd has a lock on what it takes to achieve the highest levels of audio fidelity.

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Last edited by imagic; 07-11-2014 at 05:52 AM.
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post #1886 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 05:33 AM
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I don't see that I am obliged to conduct my own experiments to confirm or deny everything I learn from acknowledged experts in a field, ie, people like the members of the Audio Engineering Society Technical Committee whose comments on the potential audibility of HDMI-induced jitter has been quoted earlier in this thread. Especially when those comments, out in the real world and not in the bubble of a Web forum, are not considered controversial.

As you asked this question, I believe it appropriate to ask you if you have you performed any experiments to show that those experts' comments were incorrect?

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From AES: (bolding is mine)

Quote:
Technical Documents are publications of the Technical Council that have an overall purpose of informing members and the public of the state of technology in areas represented by the Technical Committees. They comment on the currently available technology and applications, as well as seek to identify new and future directions and comment on their technical capabilities or shortcomings. The intended publications are different from the Standards Documents and from the Journal Papers as their goal is not to state a policy or support for a technical method, device or principle, but to provide information that represents a collective knowledge of a group of experts. Depending on the specific needs in each area, a wide range of publications can be foreseen, from a general overview to a highly technical analysis, in text, CD-ROM, DVD and other formats.
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post #1887 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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From AES: (bolding is mine)
From AES: (bolding is mine)

Quote:
Technical Documents are publications of the Technical Council that have an overall purpose of informing members and the public of the state of technology in areas represented by the Technical Committees. They comment on the currently available technology and applications, as well as seek to identify new and future directions and comment on their technical capabilities or shortcomings. The intended publications are different from the Standards Documents and from the Journal Papers as their goal is not to state a policy or support for a technical method, device or principle, but to provide information that represents a collective knowledge of a group of experts. Depending on the specific needs in each area, a wide range of publications can be foreseen, from a general overview to a highly technical analysis, in text, CD-ROM, DVD and other formats.
Whose side are you on again? What you quoted and I have highlighted in red is what John was saying and so have I. Have they identified shortcomings in HDMI? Yes. Is it the opinion of a "group of experts?" Yes.



In sharp contrast, we have a group of anonymous members with no credentials, professional experience or education, and poor Arny trying to counter the published opinion of the AES experts.

So thanks for posting that.
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post #1888 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 05:56 AM
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Whose side are you on again? What you quoted and I have highlighted in red is what John was saying and so have I. Have they identified shortcomings in HDMI? Yes. Is it the opinion of a "group of experts?" Yes.



In sharp contrast, we have a group of anonymous members with no credentials, professional experience or education, and poor Arny trying to counter the published opinion of the AES experts.

So thanks for posting that.
And on this forum their opinions count exactly as much as yours do, so perhaps you should lay off the constant put-downs.

Also, consider the contradiction involved with claiming you know the education, credentials, and/or personal experience of an anonymous member.
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Last edited by imagic; 07-11-2014 at 06:04 AM.
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post #1889 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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And on this forum their opinions count exactly as much as yours do, so perhaps you should lay off the constant put-downs.

Also, consider the contradiction involved with claiming you know the education, credentials, and/or personal experience of an anonymous member.
I am afraid your posts continue to be information-free. I asked earlier if you had run Arny's test and now, Scott's. You claim these differences are not audible, right? Well, you see my results. Let's see yours.

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post #1890 of 2920 Old 07-11-2014, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm
In sharp contrast, we have a group of anonymous members with no credentials, professional experience or education, and poor Arny trying to counter the published opinion of the AES experts.
And on this forum their opinions count exactly as much as yours do...
This was exactly the point I was making about this forum being a "bubble" compared to the real world, where qualifications, expertise, and experience do matter.

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