Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 09:33 PM
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Aliens?


ps: PC -> USB -> DAC2 -> HD650

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.1
2014/07/14 23:42:32

File A: D:\Users\me\Downloads\keys jangling band resolution limited 1616 2496.wav
File B: D:\Users\me\Downloads\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

23:42:32 : Test started.
00:22:55 : 01/01 50.0%
00:23:11 : 01/02 75.0%
00:24:01 : 01/03 87.5%
00:24:31 : 02/04 68.8%
00:24:48 : 03/05 50.0%
00:24:57 : 04/06 34.4%
00:25:06 : 04/07 50.0%
00:25:14 : 05/08 36.3%
00:25:20 : 05/09 50.0%
00:25:43 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 5/9 (50.0%)

There you have it. Anything I say in the future you can refer back here and say "He can't hear a thing"

I'll be back later...


1.5RQ > digits > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot

Last edited by RayDunzl; 07-14-2014 at 10:35 PM.
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post #1982 of 2920 Old 07-14-2014, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Once again the post is modified and then responded to. Nothing was said about "expert opinion always in perfect agreement with real world." Rather, Arny said and I quote: "My preference is to not learn from experts, but rather to learn from the real world." He is saying emphatically that he does not want to learn from experts, period.

Is that your position? That your preferences it to not learn from experts? How did you gather your audio knowledge? All from what you have learned yourself?

In my view, you can learn from experts, you can learn from experience, you can even learn from idiots.
However, to learn anything, you must first understand that you are student


- Rich
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post #1983 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
So for the last 12 years you have been mixing live sound. For what portion of that time did you have this severe hearing damage? And why did it not interfere with you getting these jobs?
What I know for sure is that I recorded the "Keys jangling" file around Y2K for the www.pcabx.com web site. The www.wayback.com machine confirms this that was about 14 years ago. (note that the Wayback records of the site are incomplete because not all of it was on a server that had a regular URL). However I have the complete site on my hard drive. At that time the 32 KHz sampling files were the first of the series that gave me serious trouble and they were mission impossible. The 16 and 24 Khz sample rate files were doable by me. Others confirmed those results.

However, you really do need to read recent posts on AVS because JA quoted Toole in http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post25746153 :

"Floyd Toole's work showed - damn I am appealing to authority again! - showed that presbycusis is not so much of a problem when it comes to consistent and repeatable listening test ability as much as hearing damage at lower frequencies, such as that due to impulsive sounds, like gunshots. Poppy Crum of Johns Hopkins and Dolby - oops, appeal to authority again - gave a very interesting paper on this subject at the New York convention in, IIRC, 2011."

I think that pretty well explains my situation.

One problems with applying the results of traditional hearing tests to audio listening is that traditional hearing tests test the threshold of hearing, while one can easily crank a good stereo up to the point where it overcomes some hearing loss.

One other thing, live sound and recording sound quality are not about having near-hypersonic hearing as much as hearing well in the normal core of the audible range. There are enough people who mix badly up to 8 KHz that just being able to do that puts you well ahead of the pack.

Last edited by arnyk; 07-15-2014 at 05:50 AM.
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post #1984 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 05:05 AM
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With the 32k sampling I could hear a minute difference under very pristine listening conditions. Under normal listening conditions ( sane levels and loudspeakers ) the difference is negligible to the point that it is not worth worrying about it.


With 44.1k sampling I failed to detect a reliable difference.


In Scott's first test I managed to identify the correct files. The second test with level matched files I did not do so well. (I picked the resampled files in all three cases.)
The 0.2dB difference the first time around probably made the difference after all.
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post #1985 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
With the 32k sampling I could hear a minute difference under very pristine listening conditions. Under normal listening conditions ( sane levels and loudspeakers ) the difference is negligible to the point that it is not worth worrying about it.

With 44.1k sampling I failed to detect a reliable difference.

In Scott's first test I managed to identify the correct files. The second test with level matched files I did not do so well. (I picked the resampled files in all three cases.)
The 0.2dB difference the first time around probably made the difference after all.
This is what I would expect.

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post #1986 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 06:34 AM
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The glorious leader conducted all the tests and witnesses confirmed he correctly identified everything.

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post #1987 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 06:51 AM
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In these tests, I tried to increase the number of iterations in order to decrease the margin of error.

PC -> Optical S/PDIF -> Pioneer Elite SC-55 -> Sony MDR-1R

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/15 08:40:55

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

08:40:55 : Test started.
08:41:50 : 01/01 50.0%
08:42:08 : 01/02 75.0%
08:42:22 : 01/03 87.5%
08:42:29 : 02/04 68.8%
08:42:36 : 03/05 50.0%
08:42:44 : 03/06 65.6%
08:42:56 : 03/07 77.3%
08:43:05 : 03/08 85.5%
08:43:18 : 04/09 74.6%
08:43:27 : 05/10 62.3%
08:43:37 : 06/11 50.0%
08:43:48 : 07/12 38.7%
08:44:02 : 07/13 50.0%
08:44:15 : 08/14 39.5%
08:44:32 : 08/15 50.0%
08:44:47 : 08/16 59.8%
08:44:57 : 08/17 68.5%
08:45:05 : 08/18 76.0%
08:45:16 : 08/19 82.0%
08:45:31 : 08/20 86.8%
08:45:38 : 08/21 90.5%
08:45:49 : 09/22 85.7%
08:46:02 : 09/23 89.5%
08:46:15 : 10/24 84.6%
08:46:21 : 10/25 88.5%
08:46:28 : 11/26 83.7%
08:46:44 : 11/27 87.6%
08:46:53 : 12/28 82.8%
08:47:00 : 13/29 77.1%
08:47:07 : 13/30 81.9%
08:47:13 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/30 (81.9%)


and...

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/15 09:14:40

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

09:14:40 : Test started.
09:15:33 : 00/01 100.0%
09:15:45 : 00/02 100.0%
09:16:20 : 01/03 87.5%
09:16:39 : 02/04 68.8%
09:16:50 : 03/05 50.0%
09:17:03 : 03/06 65.6%
09:17:12 : 03/07 77.3%
09:17:30 : 04/08 63.7%
09:17:43 : 04/09 74.6%
09:17:58 : 04/10 82.8%
09:18:23 : 04/11 88.7%
09:18:32 : 04/12 92.7%
09:18:45 : 04/13 95.4%
09:18:56 : 05/14 91.0%
09:19:04 : 05/15 94.1%
09:19:27 : 06/16 89.5%
09:19:41 : 06/17 92.8%
09:19:55 : 07/18 88.1%
09:20:08 : 07/19 91.6%
09:20:23 : 07/20 94.2%
09:20:41 : 07/21 96.1%
09:20:53 : 07/22 97.4%
09:21:05 : 07/23 98.3%
09:21:20 : 08/24 96.8%
09:21:30 : 08/25 97.8%
09:21:43 : 09/26 96.2%
09:22:03 : 09/27 97.4%
09:22:14 : 10/28 95.6%
09:22:30 : 11/29 93.2%
09:22:45 : 11/30 95.1%
09:22:48 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/30 (95.1%)

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Last edited by imagic; 07-15-2014 at 07:48 AM.
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post #1988 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 07:34 AM
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I did a bit better when I didn't listen to the files at all.

Please note the short intervals between selections...

Arbitrary click results:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/15 09:29:45

Not an actual test

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

09:29:45 : Test started.
09:29:47 : 00/01 100.0%
09:29:49 : 01/02 75.0%
09:29:51 : 01/03 87.5%
09:29:52 : 02/04 68.8%
09:29:53 : 03/05 50.0%
09:29:54 : 03/06 65.6%
09:29:55 : 03/07 77.3%
09:29:57 : 04/08 63.7%
09:29:58 : 05/09 50.0%
09:29:59 : 05/10 62.3%
09:30:01 : 06/11 50.0%
09:30:02 : 06/12 61.3%
09:30:03 : 06/13 70.9%
09:30:05 : 07/14 60.5%
09:30:07 : 07/15 69.6%
09:30:09 : 07/16 77.3%
09:30:10 : 07/17 83.4%
09:30:11 : 07/18 88.1%
09:30:13 : 08/19 82.0%
09:30:14 : 09/20 74.8%
09:30:15 : 10/21 66.8%
09:30:17 : 10/22 73.8%
09:30:18 : 11/23 66.1%
09:30:20 : 12/24 58.1%
09:30:22 : 12/25 65.5%
09:30:24 : 13/26 57.7%
09:30:26 : 14/27 50.0%
09:30:28 : 14/28 57.5%
09:30:30 : 15/29 50.0%
09:30:31 : 15/30 57.2%
09:30:34 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/30 (57.2%)

Next, I see what happens if I use a coin toss to decide...

Coin toss results:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/15 09:36:27

Not an actual test

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

09:36:27 : Test started.
09:36:34 : 00/01 100.0%
09:36:42 : 00/02 100.0%
09:36:49 : 00/03 100.0%
09:36:55 : 00/04 100.0%
09:37:02 : 01/05 96.9%
09:37:10 : 01/06 98.4%
09:37:17 : 01/07 99.2%
09:37:24 : 01/08 99.6%
09:37:30 : 01/09 99.8%
09:37:37 : 01/10 99.9%
09:37:43 : 01/11 100.0%
09:37:51 : 02/12 99.7%
09:37:57 : 03/13 98.9%
09:38:04 : 04/14 97.1%
09:38:12 : 04/15 98.2%
09:38:19 : 04/16 98.9%
09:38:25 : 05/17 97.5%
09:38:32 : 06/18 95.2%
09:38:38 : 06/19 96.8%
09:38:45 : 07/20 94.2%
09:38:52 : 07/21 96.1%
09:39:00 : 08/22 93.3%
09:39:06 : 08/23 95.3%
09:39:13 : 09/24 92.4%
09:39:19 : 10/25 88.5%
09:39:26 : 10/26 91.6%
09:39:33 : 11/27 87.6%
09:39:41 : 12/28 82.8%
09:39:48 : 13/29 77.1%
09:39:54 : 14/30 70.8%
09:39:56 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 14/30 (70.8%)

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com

Last edited by imagic; 07-15-2014 at 07:45 AM.
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post #1989 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
With the 32k sampling I could hear a minute difference under very pristine listening conditions. Under normal listening conditions ( sane levels and loudspeakers ) the difference is negligible to the point that it is not worth worrying about it.
Hmmm. This was your previous findings:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
A and B along with X and Y I listen from slightly louder 'sparkle' in the hirez file. (Difficult to dicribe the sound)


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 20:49:23
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
20:49:23 : Test started.
20:51:10 : 01/01 50.0%
20:52:25 : 02/02 25.0%
20:52:46 : 03/03 12.5%
20:53:12 : 04/04 6.3%
20:53:58 : 05/05 3.1%
20:54:20 : 06/06 1.6%
20:54:47 : 07/07 0.8%
20:55:25 : 08/08 0.4%
20:55:49 : 09/09 0.2%
20:56:16 : 10/10 0.1%
20:56:44 : 11/11 0.0%
20:57:15 : 12/12 0.0%
20:57:23 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)
Kind of amazing that you were able to 100% reliably detect "minute" differences. A perfect score of 12/12. You didn't even miss one test. Such results usually mean the difference is distinct and reliably there.

But let's say it is minute but reliably detected in ABX DBT. If you recall these were my results:


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
32 Khz versus 96 Khz
=================================
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:10:07

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

06:10:07 : Test started.
06:10:38 : 01/01 50.0%
06:10:50 : 02/02 25.0%
06:11:07 : 03/03 12.5%
06:11:23 : 04/04 6.3%
06:11:36 : 05/05 3.1%
06:12:00 : 06/06 1.6%
06:12:14 : 07/07 0.8%
06:12:26 : 08/08 0.4%
06:12:38 : 09/09 0.2%
06:12:49 : 10/10 0.1%
06:13:00 : 11/11 0.0%
06:13:23 : 12/12 0.0%
06:13:42 : 13/13 0.0%
06:13:48 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/13 (0.0%)
Given our results I hope you agree this statement is incorrect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The fact remains that we have plenty of evidence that 16/44 coding is generally sonically transparent, and there is no such thing as improved sound quality by adding bits or samples. More detailed examination shows that 15 bits and even 14 bits generally provides sonically transparent coding, as do sample rates as low as 32 KHz. Therefore 16/44 is an overkill format.
We didn't find 16 bits 32 Khz to be transparent let alone 15 or 14 bits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
With 44.1k sampling I failed to detect a reliable difference.
No worries. Just be happy that you have beat everyone else here in 32 Khz file including our audio master, Arny. 44 Khz one is quite a bit more difficult to detect. Here again my test results as to create motivation for others to try hard to detect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
44.1 versus 96 Khz
---------------------------------

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:32:02

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

06:32:02 : Test started.
06:33:07 : 01/01 50.0%
06:33:17 : 02/02 25.0%
06:33:24 : 03/03 12.5%
06:33:36 : 04/04 6.3%
06:33:47 : 05/05 3.1%
06:33:58 : 06/06 1.6%
06:34:12 : 07/07 0.8%
06:34:15 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/7 (0.8%)

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post #1990 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
In these tests, I tried to increase the number of iterations in order to decrease the margin of error.

PC -> Optical S/PDIF -> Pioneer Elite SC-55 -> Sony MDR-1R

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/15 08:40:55

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

08:40:55 : Test started.
08:41:50 : 01/01 50.0%
08:42:08 : 01/02 75.0%
08:42:22 : 01/03 87.5%
08:42:29 : 02/04 68.8%
08:42:36 : 03/05 50.0%
08:42:44 : 03/06 65.6%
08:42:56 : 03/07 77.3%
08:43:05 : 03/08 85.5%
08:43:18 : 04/09 74.6%
08:43:27 : 05/10 62.3%
08:43:37 : 06/11 50.0%
08:43:48 : 07/12 38.7%
08:44:02 : 07/13 50.0%
08:44:15 : 08/14 39.5%
08:44:32 : 08/15 50.0%
08:44:47 : 08/16 59.8%
08:44:57 : 08/17 68.5%
08:45:05 : 08/18 76.0%
08:45:16 : 08/19 82.0%
08:45:31 : 08/20 86.8%
08:45:38 : 08/21 90.5%
08:45:49 : 09/22 85.7%
08:46:02 : 09/23 89.5%
08:46:15 : 10/24 84.6%
08:46:21 : 10/25 88.5%
08:46:28 : 11/26 83.7%
08:46:44 : 11/27 87.6%
08:46:53 : 12/28 82.8%
08:47:00 : 13/29 77.1%
08:47:07 : 13/30 81.9%
08:47:13 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/30 (81.9%)
Thanks for posting this. It allows me to make another point regarding such tests. Let's say there were 9 other people besides you getting the same scores and me with my results. Once my results were added to you all, we would wind up with negative conclusion as what I did would completely get lost in your results.

Now, if we are assessing what the general public can hear, the above is fine. It represents the broad spectrum of population. But if we are to claim inaudibility of small impairments, the above would be totally wrong. Just a single person with statistically valid positive results is all we need to dismiss the statements such as those made by Arny that i quoted in my last post. This is why it is important to have the breakdown of scores for each participants and not just one total.

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post #1991 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Thanks for posting this. It allows me to make another point regarding such tests. Let's say there were 9 other people besides you getting the same scores and me with my results. Once my results were added to you all, we would wind up with negative conclusion as what I did would completely get lost in your results.

Now, if we are assessing what the general public can hear, the above is fine. It represents the broad spectrum of population. But if we are to claim inaudibility of small impairments, the above would be totally wrong. Just a single person with statistically valid positive results is all we need to dismiss the statements such as those made by Arny that i quoted in my last post. This is why it is important to have the breakdown of scores for each participants and not just one total.
Yes, but in your scenario (where you stand alone), your score would qualify as an extraordinary claim, since it would represent a deviation from the norm. As such, people (experts?) would want to see the experiment repeated, with independent verification, before calling it scientific data.

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Last edited by imagic; 07-15-2014 at 08:13 AM.
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post #1992 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:13 AM
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Talk about "golden ears"?
Jersey Corn is being harvested. "We" love it.

You may love it also... but I guess it depends.
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post #1993 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes, but in your scenario, your score qualifies as an extraordinary claim, since it represents a deviation from the norm. As such, people would want to see the experiment repeated, with independent verification. Otherwise it can't really be called scientific data.
There has been no audit, independent verification or duplication of any test put forward from the other camp. Who duplicated Meyer and Moran test? Who was there to monitor what they did? Maybe they screwed up the cabling and the whole test is wrong?

So no, for the purposes of the bubble we are in where we make up our rules of evidence, what they other guys did to show negative results, applies to me getting positive results. They were not audited so asking for the same for me would not be level playing field.

And think of the other crew versus me. They had no professional experience in such tests. No training. No verification of their reliability when it comes to testing. And no one was screened prior to taking the test.

At the risk of appearing immodest, in my case, I have been in countless double blind tests. I have professional training and had countless opportunities to verify my findings with actual operation of the system that was being developed in my team.

Given this background, all of your doubt should be pointed to the other folks performing such tests, not me. And remember again as I just post, that Frank duplicated my results in 32 Khz and got a perfect score. So any accusation of misconduct needs to pull him too.

Remember, none of those claims in these forums are "scientific" either. They are just an average Joe making claims left and right about inaudibility, present company excluded of course . Their only proof point was a challenge for DBT results and lacking that folks would say, "so you admit you have no listening test to back what you are saying." Well, now I have that DBT. Not one I created but one that our grand mentor, Arny created. And not just Arny's test but Scott's. And I used the tool I was told to use, i.e. foobar2000.

So as far as forum arguments and rules within are concerned, this is a watershed event. It is like bringing an actual UFO to the skeptics-are-us meeting. The impossible happened. Hell did freeze over. The fat lady did sing. Cows came home. It snowed in florida, etc, etc.

I hope from here on we don't go business as usual and claim inaudible this and that. Google indexes this site and the data we now have has forever changed the landscape of these discussions.

BTW, if Randi James has a $1M challenge or even $100K, I would be 100% ready to be audited by him as I redo these tests. So please get him to create such a challenge and I will be right there to address your remaining concerns. I will be donating the money to charity by the way.

Alternatively you can create a kickstarter campaign, collect sufficient money to have you fly here and monitor me running the test and some to donate to charity.

Edit: can't spell this morning .

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post #1994 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:16 AM
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We didn't find 16 bits 32 Khz to be transparent let alone 15 or 14 bits.
Did anybody try?

I don't know where they might have obtained the files for studying word length, not that making them is rocket science.

Just to remind people, word length is orthogonal with sample rate. IOW, they are totally independent of each other.

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No worries. Just be happy that you have beat everyone else here in 32 Khz file including our audio master, Arny. 44 Khz one is quite a bit more difficult to detect. Here again my test results as to create motivation for others to try hard to detect:
The issue of IM in the monitoring path seems to be unresolved as well.

I see evidence of the expected rush to judgement with some bullying thrown in, just for color I guess. ;-)

Did someone say something about amateurism?
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post #1995 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Did anybody try?
Try what Arny? We detected 16 bit 32 Khz not being transparent. How would 14 or 15 be transparent???

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post #1996 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:28 AM
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There has been no audit, independent verification or duplication of any test put forward from the other camp. Who duplicated Meyer and Moran test? Who was there to monitor what they did? Maybe they screwed up the cabling and the whole test is wrong?

So no, for the purposes of the bubble we are in where we make up our rules of evidence, what they other guys did to show negative results, applies to me getting positive results. They were not audited so asking for the same for me would not be level playing field.

And think of the other crew versus me. They had no professional experience in such tests. No training. No verification of their reliability when it comes to testing. And no one was screened prior to taking the test.

At the risk of appearing immodest, in my case, I have been in countless double blind tests. I have professional training and had countless opportunities to verify my findings with actual operation of the system that was being developed in my team.

Given this background, all of your doubt should be pointed to the other folks performing such tests, not me. And remember again as I just post, that Frank duplicated my results in 32 Khz and got a perfect score. So any accusation of misconduct needs to pull him too.

Remember, none of those claims in these forums are "scientific" either. They are just an average Joe making claims left and right about inaudibility, present company excluded of course . Their only proof point was a challenge for DBT results and lacking that folks would say, "so you admit you have no listening test to back what you are saying." Well, now I have that DBT. Not one I created but one that our grand mentor, Arny created. And not just Arny's test but Scott's. And I used the tool I was told to use, i.e. foobar2000.

So as far as forum arguments and rules within are concerned, this is a watershed event. It is like bringing an actual UFO to the skeptics-are-us meeting. The impossible happened. Hell did freeze over. The fat lady did sing. Cows came home. It snowed in florida, etc, etc.

I hope from here on we don't go business as usual and claim inaudible this and that. Google indexes this site and the data we now have has forever changed the landscape of these discussions.

BTW, if Randi James has a $1M challenge or even $100K, I would be 100% ready to be audited by him as I redo these tests. So please get him to create such a challenge and I will be right there to address your remaining concerns. I will be donating the money to charity by the way.

Alternatively you can create a kickstarter campaign, collect sufficient money to have you fly here and monitor me running the test and some to donate to charity.

Edit: can't spell this morning .
Methinks it was your example, and in your example you stood alone. I was talking about what it would take for your assertions to be treated as real science, not what's happening in this thread.

And yes, quite a few AVS threads do very well in terms of Google search ranking for the given topic. In fact, I noticed AVS is the #1 result for "HDMI jitter"

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post #1997 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Methinks it was your example, and in your example you stood alone.
No I didn't:

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Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
A and B along with X and Y I listen from slightly louder 'sparkle' in the hirez file. (Difficult to dicribe the sound)


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 20:49:23
File A: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: \\diskstationone\music\jitter\test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
20:49:23 : Test started.
20:51:10 : 01/01 50.0%
20:52:25 : 02/02 25.0%
20:52:46 : 03/03 12.5%
20:53:12 : 04/04 6.3%
20:53:58 : 05/05 3.1%
20:54:20 : 06/06 1.6%
20:54:47 : 07/07 0.8%
20:55:25 : 08/08 0.4%
20:55:49 : 09/09 0.2%
20:56:16 : 10/10 0.1%
20:56:44 : 11/11 0.0%
20:57:15 : 12/12 0.0%
20:57:23 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark
I was talking about what it would take for your assertions to be treated as real science, not what's happening in this thread.
And I explained that all the claims to the contrary had much less weight associated with them yet you all accepted them with open arms. No skepticism was demonstrated. Now all of a sudden you are worried about veracity of my results? Show that you are not a part-time vegetarian and we can talk.

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post #1998 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:37 AM
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No I didn't:
You said: "Let's say there were 9 other people besides you getting the same scores and me with my results." and "Just a single person with statistically valid positive results is all we need"

I said: "Methinks it was your example, and in your example you stood alone."

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post #1999 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:39 AM
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Thanks for posting this. It allows me to make another point regarding such tests. Let's say there were 9 other people besides you getting the same scores and me with my results. Once my results were added to you all, we would wind up with negative conclusion as what I did would completely get lost in your results.

Now, if we are assessing what the general public can hear, the above is fine. It represents the broad spectrum of population. But if we are to claim inaudibility of small impairments, the above would be totally wrong. Just a single person with statistically valid positive results is all we need to dismiss the statements such as those made by Arny that i quoted in my last post. This is why it is important to have the breakdown of scores for each participants and not just one total.
Sure, if we averaged out everything, individual successes would be lost, and after so many correct answers, which don't suggest chance, one might well come to the erroneous conclusion that it can't be heard.

Few findings in the realm of science are definitive and we often read that results suggest sayings like further work is necessary. This way we get a more complete understanding. If I've understood some of what Fielder has written, he's a proponent of hi-rez. Contained within that, is that the playback system should be capable of comparable dynamics. In your case, Amir, the headphones you used have a FR of 20-16K I believe with no stated tolerance. Their measurements look something like this,



As to what the HP headphone output is capable of, i dont know. One question that comes to mind is if the reason you're picking up differences in any way due IM considerations and how could we test for that?

Another thought is what would the results be if you were to rig the PC such that you could feed your Stax headphones?

Keying in on snippets is good to nail what may be the problem or most taxing areas. People are generally going to listen to musical pieces in their entirety which makes me wonder how does the ability to discriminate change when one does so?

Your alien story was interesting, Amir, but seeing that so many that have been abducted reported sexual encounters typically involving the backdoor, how was it that you didn't report that?

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post #2000 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:48 AM
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No I didn't:

And I explained that all the claims to the contrary had much less weight associated with them yet you all accepted them with open arms. No skepticism was demonstrated. Now all of a sudden you are worried about veracity of my results? Show that you are not a part-time vegetarian and we can talk.
I'm even skeptical about my own results, after finding that actual random selections resulted in (slightly) better performance than trying to make the right choice. It must be within the margin of error.

And yes, if you wanted to truly prove you are the exception to the rule, everyone would need to be re-tested using stringent controls—not just you. Otherwise, the results are not science—I'd go with 'anecdotal evidence' as the proper description.

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post #2001 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Your alien story was interesting, Amir, but seeing that so many that have been abducted reported sexual encounters typically involving the backdoor, how was it that you didn't report that?
Yes, I often wonder about that. As you know, under severe trauma such as that, the brain goes into self protection and erases memory of such events. At some point when I am brave enough, I will be going under hypnosis to bring back these repressed memories.

I wonder if someone could record my therapy sessions like they did for Will:


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post #2002 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 09:03 AM
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Try what Arny? We detected 16 bit 32 Khz not being transparent.
False claim. Some alleged tests with postive outcomes have been reported, but questions about monitoring chains seem to be systematically ignored.

Furthermore word length and sample rate seem to be intentionally conflated.

^%$!! amateurs!
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post #2003 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 09:12 AM
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Severe trauma is one possibility. Another is that you rather enjoyed it but for personal reasons would prefer not to talk about it.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2004 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Severe trauma is one possibility. Another is that you rather enjoyed it but for personal reasons would prefer not to talk about it.
I bow to your experience in this regard Chu.

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post #2005 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 09:42 AM
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Yes, I often wonder about that. As you know, under severe trauma such as that, the brain goes into self protection and erases memory of such events. At some point when I am brave enough, I will be going under hypnosis to bring back these repressed memories.

I wonder if someone could record my therapy sessions like they did for Will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpL3ncoK99U
Proponents of repressed memories, hdmi jitter, and hi Rez audio all have one thing in common: lack of evidence.

Whereas the last two result in nothing more than lighter wallets for consumers, the first one resulted in false convictions of a number of day care workers for "satanic rituals". A recent issue of Skeptical Inquirer has an article about the recent exoneration of two of them.

Such can be the consequence of hastily accepted baseless assertions.
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post #2006 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Proponents of repressed memories, hdmi jitter, and hi Rez audio all have one thing in common: lack of evidence.
How about the fact that I saw you on the spaceship and they didn't let you go when they let me? I suppose you will now deny that????

Quote:
Originally Posted by kut
Whereas the last two result in nothing more than lighter wallets for consumers, the first one resulted in false convictions of a number of day care workers for "satanic rituals". A recent issue of Skeptical Inquirer has an article about the recent exoneration of two of them.
Don't tell me about satanic rituals at daycare because I have also experienced that. The alien abduction was much worse though.

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Such can be the consequence of hastily accepted baseless assertions.
There is nothing baseless about me being on a UFO. I have the hearing ability to prove it. What proof do you have that you were not on the same spaceship?

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post #2007 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 09:53 AM
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I bow to your experience in this regard Chu.
Assuming the position?

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How about the fact that I saw you on the spaceship and they didn't let you go when they let me? I suppose you will now deny that????


Don't tell me about satanic rituals at daycare because I have also experienced that. The alien abduction was much worse though.


There is nothing baseless about me being on a UFO. I have the hearing ability to prove it. What proof do you have that you were not on the same spaceship?
Given some of your out-of-this-world assertions, I would not be surprised.
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post #2009 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 10:02 AM
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Hmmm. This was your previous findings:



Kind of amazing that you were able to 100% reliably detect "minute" differences. A perfect score of 12/12. You didn't even miss one test. Such results usually mean the difference is distinct and reliably there.

But let's say it is minute but reliably detected in ABX DBT. If you recall these were my results:




Given our results I hope you agree this statement is incorrect:



We didn't find 16 bits 32 Khz to be transparent let alone 15 or 14 bits.


No worries. Just be happy that you have beat everyone else here in 32 Khz file including our audio master, Arny. 44 Khz one is quite a bit more difficult to detect. Here again my test results as to create motivation for others to try hard to detect:
I did training before posting the final ABX. Took some time before I was able to select a small part of the track that gave me the final result.
With 44.1 k sampling I could not successfully abx anymore.


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post #2010 of 2920 Old 07-15-2014, 10:24 AM
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I am reading this thread and I am shocked! ...Rattled to the bone!

Talk about audio science! Shhhh ...Self-proclaimed experts without any control; not showing their best light fo sur.
Not a drop of respect, and "I'm the god of paradise".

Young scientists reading this, jeez what would Albert think! ...Not only it isn't inspiring, but it has less than a solid zero credibility; I'm bleeding in & out.
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