Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 74 - AVS Forum
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post #2191 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Arny, I had all those thoughts regarding Amir's results with the key jangling files. Then, I simply figured out how to pass the test. So, based on personal experience, cheating is totally unnecessary. That's because with those files, there is an obvious, detectable difference, even between 44.1 and 96.
Please describe the sensory means for obtaining the obvious detectible difference. As I recall it required the use of a certain laptop, right?
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post #2192 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Please describe the sensory means for obtaining the obvious detectible difference. As I recall it required the use of a certain laptop, right?
I'm not sure it required the laptop (edit - it did not require that laptop, or headphones). It's not 'a certain laptop,' it's just the laptop I have. It just happened to be the case that I figured out how to ace the test when I reran it on a laptop, instead of my desktop. I plan to revisit (edit - I did revisit) the test on another system, to see if I can repeat the feat (edit - I did!). I also plan to do it with speakers instead of headphones. As far as I can tell, the trick really was figuring out what to listen for.

Anyhow, what I found was that starting the loop in the middle of a particularly strong transient, and keeping the loop short (1 second or less) was the key to detecting the difference. The volume level was relatively modest.
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Last edited by imagic; 07-21-2014 at 07:08 AM. Reason: Updated info
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post #2193 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:34 AM
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So, bottom line time. For those who can detect the difference, does this make you want to change your equipment or media? Mark, you in particular have advocated for a set of speakers (the Behringers) that sound good, but have compression drivers that are not known for their ultrasonics. You've also been a bit of an "objectivist" around here (and I definitely mean that as a compliment - you're someone who serves as a moderating force against some of the more radical and unsupportable claims that get made on this forum). Does this have any impact on how you will buy equipment or media in the future?
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post #2194 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
How many different combinations of digital players and transducers have you duplicated your results with? if its *that* easy, you should be able to rack up an impressive number of retests on different players and transducers in a heartbeat or two...
I have post results from no less than 3 different "transducers." So not sure why that challenge is being put forward Arny.

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post #2195 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by skater2 View Post
So, bottom line time. For those who can detect the difference, does this make you want to change your equipment or media? Mark, you in particular have advocated for a set of speakers (the Behringers) that sound good, but have compression drivers that are not known for their ultrasonics. You've also been a bit of an "objectivist" around here. Does this have any impact on how you will buy equipment or media in the future?
It has no impact at all in terms of the equipment I use, or how I buy my most of music (iTunes AAC/M4A). I am fine with using HDMI for audio, and the DAC that's built into my Pioneer Elite. In just a few minutes from now, I plan to use the Behringers, which start to roll off significantly around 17,000 Hz, to perform the same tests. It's a totally different chain than the laptop/headphones combo, fingers crossed that I can pull it off.

edit - that was easy!
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Last edited by imagic; 07-21-2014 at 06:58 AM.
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post #2196 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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And here are the results from fourth transducer, the Paradigm e2m IME:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 06:43:13

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav

06:43:13 : Test started.
06:43:53 : 01/01 50.0%
06:44:02 : 02/02 25.0%
06:44:08 : 03/03 12.5%
06:44:17 : 04/04 6.3%
06:44:29 : 05/05 3.1%
06:44:34 : 06/06 1.6%
06:44:43 : 07/07 0.8%
06:44:50 : 08/08 0.4%
06:44:57 : 09/09 0.2%
06:45:05 : 10/10 0.1%
06:45:11 : 11/11 0.0%
06:45:15 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/11 (0.0%)


So complete correct detection once again. I hope this horse is now dead and remains so .
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post #2197 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 06:57 AM
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OK, for this test I used my DIY PC. Audio is coming from of the video card's HDMI output (ATI Radeon R9 200 series). Processing is via Pioneer Elite SC-55 in Pure/Direct mode. I listened through a pair of Behringer B215XL speakers. I made one goof, but ultimately it was just as easy to tell 16/44.1 from 24/96 as it was with the laptop/headphones combo.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 09:48:16

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

09:48:16 : Test started.
09:50:38 : 01/01 50.0%
09:50:45 : 02/02 25.0%
09:50:54 : 03/03 12.5%
09:51:02 : 04/04 6.3%
09:51:09 : 05/05 3.1%
09:51:14 : 06/06 1.6%
09:51:22 : 07/07 0.8%
09:51:29 : 07/08 3.5%
09:51:37 : 08/09 2.0%
09:51:43 : 09/10 1.1%
09:51:47 : 10/11 0.6%
09:51:53 : 11/12 0.3%
09:51:56 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/12 (0.3%)
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post #2198 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I have post results from no less than 3 different "transducers." So not sure why that challenge is being put forward Arny.
For one thing, the above seems to be only half an answer, as it seems to describe usage involving just one player.
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post #2199 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
For one thing, the above seems to be only half an answer, as it seems to describe usage involving just one player.
I now have positive results from two totally different systems.

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post #2200 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
OK, for this test I used my DIY PC. Audio is coming from of the video card's HDMI output (ATI Radeon R9 200 series). Processing is via Pioneer Elite SC-55 in Pure/Direct mode. I listened through a pair of Behringer B215XL speakers. I made one goof, but ultimately it was just as easy to tell 16/44.1 from 24/96 as it was with the laptop/headphones combo.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 09:48:16

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

09:48:16 : Test started.
09:50:38 : 01/01 50.0%
09:50:45 : 02/02 25.0%
09:50:54 : 03/03 12.5%
09:51:02 : 04/04 6.3%
09:51:09 : 05/05 3.1%
09:51:14 : 06/06 1.6%
09:51:22 : 07/07 0.8%
09:51:29 : 07/08 3.5%
09:51:37 : 08/09 2.0%
09:51:43 : 09/10 1.1%
09:51:47 : 10/11 0.6%
09:51:53 : 11/12 0.3%
09:51:56 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/12 (0.3%)
Well this is all very interesting. The last time I circulated this recording (10-14 years ago) it seems to have stumped everybody. Now, not so much. But the number of reports is still very small but apparently quite repeatable at least in some cases. People are reporting detection with earphones, headphones and speakers that seem to have some pretty strong limitations in the ultrasonic response department.

I'll have to put some more work into that audible IM test.
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post #2201 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
And here are the results from fourth transducer, the Paradigm e2m IME:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 06:43:13

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav

06:43:13 : Test started.
06:43:53 : 01/01 50.0%
06:44:02 : 02/02 25.0%
06:44:08 : 03/03 12.5%
06:44:17 : 04/04 6.3%
06:44:29 : 05/05 3.1%
06:44:34 : 06/06 1.6%
06:44:43 : 07/07 0.8%
06:44:50 : 08/08 0.4%
06:44:57 : 09/09 0.2%
06:45:05 : 10/10 0.1%
06:45:11 : 11/11 0.0%
06:45:15 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/11 (0.0%)


So complete correct detection once again. I hope this horse is now dead and remains so .
As far as I'm concerned, at least as far as these key jangling files go, the difference between 24/96 and any of the other files is totally and reliably detectable—including the 16/44 version.

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post #2202 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
As far as I'm concerned, at least as far as these key jangling files go, the difference between 24/96 and any of the other files is totally and reliably detectable—including the 16/44 version.
Great to see you validate the results. I was worried soon Arny would be demanding to see my birth certificate .

Prior to this experience, you would not have thought that these differences were audible, yes? And your first tries proved the same. You were biased by the experiment creators at the start. That you were not supposed to hear any difference so you didn't. And didn't even try hard because you were told that outcome was the right one. Who says these DBTs are unbiased? Clearly they are not in the context that they are presented.

Now Arny says he is able to hear the difference too. What changed? Fact that others could reliably hear the difference. Now the expectation bias of no difference is thrown out the window, man's pride in question, and all of a sudden, he can hear the difference too! Maybe our grand master has finally learned to listen critically?

So what does this say about all this talk on forums? They are not science based now, are they? No. They are instead based on conjecture, and what sounds right as you read the text in a forum post. We tell the kids not to believe everything they read on the Internet but then go on to do exactly that when it comes to audio. Lack of professional experience seems to not bother us.

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post #2203 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
As far as I'm concerned, at least as far as these key jangling files go, the difference between 24/96 and any of the other files is totally and reliably detectable—including the 16/44 version.
OK, here's my first shot at an IM test.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xk18jgqmu...st%20tones.zip

There are two files in the zip file - both 2496, both containing the usual keys jangling sound, but at the end are 4 seconds of test tones.

(1) Using the FOOBAR2000 facilities for listening to only part of a file, listen to the usual keys jangling sound and ABX to obtain your usual accurate detection.

(2) Now move on to listening to just the last 4 seconds of the files. The contents of the last 4 seconds of the file should sound like a -30 dB 4 KHz tone (not at all ear splitting), followed by a click, 1 second of silence, a click, 1 second of silence, a click, 1 second of silence, a click and end, whether you listen to the 2496 or the 1644 version. Please report what you hear for both files. Do not change your volume control between the keys jangling ABX listening and an the test tone listening. You do not need to ABX the test tone segments, just do sighted listening and report your subjective impressions.

In addition, for your listening pleasure:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nuvojqahj...rk%20fixed.zip

Contains Ethan's Soundblaster generations file with the ca. 0.4 dB level mismatch (probably audible) corrected.

Last edited by arnyk; 07-21-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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post #2204 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:00 AM
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WRT the audible differences in the keys files, are there more than one location where it can be reliably detected?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2205 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Great to see you validate the results. I was worried soon Arny would be demanding to see my birth certificate .

Prior to this experience, you would not have thought that these differences were audible, yes? And your first tries proved the same. You were biased by the experiment creators at the start.
I was the creator of the experiment and I approached it with an arguably open mind. Creating the experiment took legwork and significant out-of-pocket expenses. We're talking a ca. $500 audio interface, two $1300 each street price B&K 4006 microphones and a Benchmark Media mic preamp.

The files were downloaded by 100s if not thousands of people in the days of the PCABX web site and there were no reports of people hearing differences. No attempts were made to suggest an outcome. The presentation of the files was designed to foster enthusiasm for positive outcomes.

I believe that at the time I brought the files and a PC with a professional audio interface and some NHTPro A10 studio monitors that had strong response > 20 KHz to a SMWTMS meeting and had a number of people, some AES Fellows, listen to them there. Everybody gave it a heck of a try from what I could see. No dice.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
That you were not supposed to hear any difference so you didn't. And didn't even try hard because you were told that outcome was the right one. Who says these DBTs are unbiased? Clearly they are not in the context that they are presented.
Remember this was ca. Y2K. Before SACD, and DVD-A. My goal was to develop some really strong samples that would induce reliable detection, and if I achieved that I would receive a certain amount of adulation from my peers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Now Arny says he is able to hear the difference too. What changed?
I am baldly and forthrightly cheating by inducing IM distortion. ;-) If I fail to do that, I'm back to random guessing.

Last edited by arnyk; 07-21-2014 at 08:07 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
Your memory serves you ill, Mr. Krueger, as you never saw an "early draft" of an article of mine on lossy compression.
Well, it wasn't the 2008 article... (snip of the inevitable personal comment)
No, because you never saw that article before publication: http://www.stereophile.com/features/308mp3cd/index.html .

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
and it wasn't the brief 1999 article.
No, because you never saw that article either before publication. I don't understand why you are claiming prior knowledge of the content of articles I have written.

But to put me out of your misery, Mr. Krueger, you are referring to a public lecture George Massenburg gave to the UK chapter of the Audio Engineering Society in the spring of 2009, which included demonstrations of the difference signals between uncompressed and lossy compressed files. This lecture and George's demonstration was discussed at length on Hydrogen Audio in a thread to which you and Krabapple were vocal contributors, as well as myself. As flattering as it is to be confused with George, you are mistaken.

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Probably from before the 1998 bankruptcy of SP's parent...
There was no bankruptcy of "SP's parent" in 1998. In June 1998, my business partner and I sold Stereophile and Stereophile Guide to Home Theater to Petersen Publications.

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post #2207 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:04 AM
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Here's another one I did just for fun, listening for the difference between 16/32 and 16/44. It took me a while to find my groove, hunting for a good segment. The last round was easy enough though, it really is about finding the right clip. On the first three tries, the difference was too slight and I lost my confidence. On the fourth round, it just clicked.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 10:49:13

File A: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: E:\AVS\Foobar ABX\Jangling Keys\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav

10:49:13 : Test started.
10:49:43 : 01/01 50.0%
10:49:47 : 02/02 25.0%
10:49:51 : 03/03 12.5%
10:49:55 : 03/04 31.3%
10:50:01 : 03/05 50.0%
10:50:05 : 04/06 34.4%
10:50:16 : 05/07 22.7%
10:50:25 : 06/08 14.5%
10:50:31 : 06/09 25.4%
10:50:39 : 07/10 17.2%
10:50:49 : 07/11 27.4%
10:50:54 : 08/12 19.4%
10:51:07 : 09/13 13.3%
10:51:12 : 09/14 21.2%
10:51:19 : 09/15 30.4%
10:51:21 : Trial reset.
10:51:33 : 01/01 50.0%
10:51:37 : 02/02 25.0%
10:51:42 : 03/03 12.5%
10:51:47 : 03/04 31.3%
10:51:54 : 04/05 18.8%
10:52:07 : 05/06 10.9%
10:52:14 : 05/07 22.7%
10:52:21 : 06/08 14.5%
10:52:32 : 06/09 25.4%
10:52:41 : 06/10 37.7%
10:52:45 : 06/11 50.0%
10:54:05 : 06/12 61.3%
10:54:07 : Trial reset.
10:54:11 : 00/01 100.0%
10:54:17 : 01/02 75.0%
10:54:26 : 02/03 50.0%
10:54:33 : 02/04 68.8%
10:54:38 : 03/05 50.0%
10:54:45 : 04/06 34.4%
10:54:50 : 05/07 22.7%
10:54:59 : 06/08 14.5%
10:55:12 : 07/09 9.0%
10:55:15 : 08/10 5.5%
10:55:21 : 08/11 11.3%
10:55:25 : 08/12 19.4%
10:55:33 : 08/13 29.1%
10:55:42 : 09/14 21.2%
10:55:51 : 09/15 30.4%
10:55:57 : 10/16 22.7%
10:56:03 : 10/17 31.5%
10:56:09 : 11/18 24.0%
10:56:16 : 11/19 32.4%
10:56:17 : Trial reset.
10:57:12 : 01/01 50.0%
10:57:26 : 01/02 75.0%
10:57:32 : 02/03 50.0%
10:57:40 : 03/04 31.3%
10:57:55 : 04/05 18.8%
10:58:06 : 05/06 10.9%
10:58:12 : 06/07 6.3%
10:58:22 : 07/08 3.5%
10:58:28 : 08/09 2.0%
10:58:35 : 09/10 1.1%
10:58:55 : 10/11 0.6%
10:59:00 : 11/12 0.3%
10:59:04 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 37/58 (2.4%)

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post #2208 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
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It's become a test of whatever the Naysayers say "nobody can hear" and then Amirm tries it and replies with "Oh yes I can..."
Do you trust what he posts on this forum?
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post #2209 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
OK, here's my first shot at an IM test.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xk18jgqmu...st%20tones.zip

There are two files in the zip file - both 2496, both containing the usual keys jangling sound, but at the end are 4 seconds of test tones.

(1) Using the FOOBAR2000 facilities for listening to only part of a file, listen to the usual keys jangling sound and ABX to obtain your usual accurate detection.

(2) Now move on to listening to just the last 4 seconds of the files. The contents of the last 4 seconds of the file should sound like a -30 dB 4 KHz tone (not at all ear splitting), followed by a click, 1 second of silence, a click, 1 second of silence, a click, 1 second of silence, a click and end, whether you listen to the 2496 or the 1644 version. Please report what you hear for both files. Do not change your volume control between the keys jangling ABX listening and an the test tone listening. You do not need to ABX the test tone segments, just do sighted listening and report your subjective impressions.

In addition, for your listening pleasure:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nuvojqahj...rk%20fixed.zip

Contains Ethan's Soundblaster generations file with the ca. 0.4 dB level mismatch (probably audible) corrected.
Done. Super easy.

When it comes to the tones, with the 16/44 file I heard the first tone, then silence. With the 24/96 file, I heard a bit of distortion creep in there after the first tone; three high-pitched, relatively quiet, fuzzy tones; each one a bit different. I already peeked at the files in Audition, so I know what I was listening to.

So, what does it all mean?

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 11:07:00

File A: C:\Users\mark\Downloads\keys jangling test tones\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones 1644.wav
File B: C:\Users\mark\Downloads\keys jangling test tones\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones.wav

11:07:00 : Test started.
11:12:37 : 01/01 50.0%
11:12:42 : 02/02 25.0%
11:12:49 : 03/03 12.5%
11:12:54 : 04/04 6.3%
11:13:00 : 05/05 3.1%
11:13:06 : 06/06 1.6%
11:13:12 : 07/07 0.8%
11:13:18 : 08/08 0.4%
11:13:21 : 09/09 0.2%
11:13:24 : 10/10 0.1%
11:13:30 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #2210 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:20 AM
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here are my results - done on a laptop via iems
Quote:
foobar2000 v1.3.1
2014/07/21 15:35:16

File A: C:\Users\jkeny\Music\Keys Jangling 2496\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\jkeny\Music\Keys Jangling 2496\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

15:35:16 : Test started.
15:37:08 : 01/01 50.0%
15:37:16 : 02/02 25.0%
15:37:29 : 03/03 12.5%
15:37:38 : 04/04 6.3%
15:37:43 : 05/05 3.1%
15:37:48 : 06/06 1.6%
15:37:55 : 07/07 0.8%
15:38:03 : 08/08 0.4%
15:38:09 : 09/09 0.2%
15:38:14 : 10/10 0.1%
15:38:19 : 11/11 0.0%
15:38:24 : 12/12 0.0%
15:38:29 : 13/13 0.0%
15:38:34 : 14/14 0.0%
15:38:39 : 15/15 0.0%
15:38:45 : 16/16 0.0%
15:38:50 : 17/17 0.0%
15:38:55 : 18/18 0.0%
15:39:00 : 19/19 0.0%
15:39:05 : 20/20 0.0%
15:39:19 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 20/20 (0.0%)
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post #2211 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post
Do you trust what he posts on this forum?
I beleive that the results of the IM and soundcard tests described and made available in this post:

Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test

Will shed additional light.

Science can be like war and even a relatively unimportant point is rarely won or lost in one battle.
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post #2212 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
here are my results - done on a laptop via iems
Now please proceed to this post and report your results from both tests in it:

Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test
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post #2213 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Done. Super easy.

When it comes to the tones, with the 16/44 file I heard the first tone, then silence. With the 24/96 file, I heard a bit of distortion creep in there after the first tone; three high-pitched, relatively quiet, fuzzy tones; each one a bit different. I already peeked at the files in Audition, so I know what I was listening to.

So, what does it all mean?

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 11:07:00

File A: C:\Users\mark\Downloads\keys jangling test tones\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones 1644.wav
File B: C:\Users\mark\Downloads\keys jangling test tones\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones.wav

11:07:00 : Test started.
11:12:37 : 01/01 50.0%
11:12:42 : 02/02 25.0%
11:12:49 : 03/03 12.5%
11:12:54 : 04/04 6.3%
11:13:00 : 05/05 3.1%
11:13:06 : 06/06 1.6%
11:13:12 : 07/07 0.8%
11:13:18 : 08/08 0.4%
11:13:21 : 09/09 0.2%
11:13:24 : 10/10 0.1%
11:13:30 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)
We have some other candidates for this test (at least 3 or 4) , and I don't want to bias their findings. I will explain it all when I have sufficient responses.

Please attempt the corrected Soundblaster generations files in the other Zip file if at all convenient.
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post #2214 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Here's another one I did just for fun, listening for the difference between 16/32 and 16/44.
----------
Total: 37/58 (2.4%)
Thanks a lot Mark. Here is the spectrum of those files as posted by Arny:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Band and resolution limited to 44/16:



Band and resolution limited to 32/16:



Listen away guys! If you can't hear a difference between these files, hang it up...
There is no ultrasonics. So I wonder how Arny's intermodulation theory holds with respect to these differences. Clearly these are band limited files with no ultrasonics to speak of.

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post #2215 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I was the creator of the experiment and I approached it with an arguably open mind. Creating the experiment took legwork and significant out-of-pocket expenses. We're talking a ca. $500 audio interface, two $1300 each street price B&K 4006 microphones and a Benchmark Media mic preamp.
Well, then I have you beat as I have spent almost $2,500 on my laptop plus something like $4,000 for my Stax headphone.

Silly argument, no? I trust you did not buy any of that hardware just to do this test and then throw them away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
The files were downloaded by 100s if not thousands of people in the days of the PCABX web site and there were no reports of people hearing differences.
Yup. That is the nature of average listener. And the danger in extrapolating their results to everyone else and claiming there are no golden ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
No attempts were made to suggest an outcome. The presentation of the files was designed to foster enthusiasm for positive outcomes.
I am speaking of their presentation in this forum. I just post what you said above: "Listen away guys! If you can't hear a difference between these files, hang it up..."

Doesn't this say Arny believes the differences are inaudible? And therefore anyone who breathes your exhaust fumes would be enticed to believe the same? There was no reason to add that commentary if we are genuinely interested in either outcome.

But yes, I do believe that the Arny of that era was far more neutral than the one writing these posts .

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
I believe that at the time I brought the files and a PC with a professional audio interface and some NHTPro A10 studio monitors that had strong response > 20 KHz to a SMWTMS meeting and had a number of people, some AES Fellows, listen to them there. Everybody gave it a heck of a try from what I could see. No dice.
Which puts in doubt any listening tests that group has performed. And with all due respects, the AES Fellows too. I am pretty sure they did not become AES Fellows based on their listening abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
Remember this was ca. Y2K. Before SACD, and DVD-A. My goal was to develop some really strong samples that would induce reliable detection, and if I achieved that I would receive a certain amount of adulation from my peers.
I believe that. Per above, I think over time you have moved off that goal and position to an extreme one that simply is not defensible. The Arny of that era found differences in amplifiers. The Arny of today makes that sound like an impossibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arny
I am baldly and forthrightly cheating by inducing IM distortion. ;-) If I fail to do that, I'm back to random guessing.
Well, that is not what I am doing or hearing. So I think your vote still remains as random guessing.

By the way, do you have measurements of that IM distortion that you can post?

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post #2216 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:52 AM
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There's no music I like listening to more than jangling keys.
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post #2217 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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And here are my results comparing 32 Khz sampling to 44 Khz. A test which I had run before with the same outcome:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/21 08:47:19

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav

08:47:19 : Test started.
08:47:38 : 01/01 50.0%
08:47:47 : 02/02 25.0%
08:47:57 : 03/03 12.5%
08:48:06 : 04/04 6.3%
08:48:15 : 05/05 3.1%
08:48:27 : 06/06 1.6%
08:48:33 : 07/07 0.8%
08:48:41 : 08/08 0.4%
08:48:50 : 09/09 0.2%
08:48:59 : 10/10 0.1%
08:49:14 : 11/11 0.0%
08:49:18 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/11 (0.0%)


As I noted in my response to Mark, I don't see how Arny's hypothesis has merit. Arny, do you hear these differences and still believe it is "IM distortion?"

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post #2218 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
There's no music I like listening to more than jangling keys.
You are more than welcome to listen to Scott's clips instead which are real music. Here is how I did. Please post how you have done:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Thank you Scott! Much appreciated the effort you have put on this project Scott. For the first time I feel that the forum is moving forward toward better understanding of this topic.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 18:50:44

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_B2.wav

18:50:44 : Test started.
18:51:25 : 00/01 100.0%
18:51:38 : 01/02 75.0%
18:51:47 : 02/03 50.0%
18:51:55 : 03/04 31.3%
18:52:05 : 04/05 18.8%
18:52:21 : 05/06 10.9%
18:52:32 : 06/07 6.3%
18:52:43 : 07/08 3.5%
18:52:59 : 08/09 2.0%
18:53:10 : 09/10 1.1%
18:53:19 : 10/11 0.6%
18:53:23 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/11 (0.6%)

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
The third track was pretty easy. First segment picked was quite revealing:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 21:01:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_B2.wav

21:01:16 : Test started.
21:02:11 : 01/01 50.0%
21:02:20 : 02/02 25.0%
21:02:28 : 03/03 12.5%
21:02:38 : 04/04 6.3%
21:02:47 : 05/05 3.1%
21:02:56 : 06/06 1.6%
21:03:06 : 07/07 0.8%
21:03:16 : 08/08 0.4%
21:03:26 : 09/09 0.2%
21:03:45 : 10/10 0.1%
21:03:54 : 11/11 0.0%
21:04:11 : 12/12 0.0%
21:04:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/11 06:18:47

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_B2.wav

06:18:47 : Test started.
06:19:38 : 00/01 100.0%
06:20:15 : 00/02 100.0%
06:20:47 : 01/03 87.5%
06:21:01 : 01/04 93.8%
06:21:20 : 02/05 81.3%
06:21:32 : 03/06 65.6%
06:21:48 : 04/07 50.0%
06:22:01 : 04/08 63.7%
06:22:15 : 05/09 50.0%
06:22:24 : 05/10 62.3%
06:23:15 : 06/11 50.0% <---- difference found reliably. Note the 100% correct votes from here on.
06:23:27 : 07/12 38.7%
06:23:36 : 08/13 29.1%
06:23:49 : 09/14 21.2%
06:24:02 : 10/15 15.1%
06:24:10 : 11/16 10.5%
06:24:20 : 12/17 7.2%
06:24:27 : 13/18 4.8%
06:24:35 : 14/19 3.2%
06:24:40 : 15/20 2.1%
06:24:46 : 16/21 1.3%
06:24:56 : 17/22 0.8%
06:25:04 : 18/23 0.5%
06:25:13 : 19/24 0.3%
06:25:25 : 20/25 0.2%
06:25:32 : 21/26 0.1%
06:25:38 : 22/27 0.1%
06:25:45 : 23/28 0.0%
06:25:51 : 24/29 0.0%
06:25:58 : 25/30 0.0%

06:26:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 25/30 (0.0%)


So we now have 3 out of 3 positive detection of differences in Scott's clips.

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post #2219 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
There's no music I like listening to more than jangling keys.
In the constellation of sound selections that have been used over the years for diagnostic listening, keys jangling is probably among the shortest and easiest to listen to.

Imagine the effects of listening to rock and roll on people who have a very strong preference for classical or vice versa!

Take a listen to the MPEG group's SQAM files, which are still on the web the last time I looked for them a few months back.
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post #2220 of 2920 Old 07-21-2014, 09:21 AM
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For lossy encoding there are 'killer samples' that tend to be more revealing of artifacts; for difference tests generally, pure tones can sometimes allow for easier discrimination than 'complex' ones. Mono signals may out-discriminate stereo ones. Etc. etc. If our goal is to ferret out whether a difference can *ever possibly* be heard, you use abnormal, analytic tools like that. Plus training, plus the most revealing gear you can muster, etc.

My *overall* point is, does any of that *really* support the general , endlessly claimed audiophile case of 'wow, *such a difference* when I play the hi-rez version of this music, compared to my CD! High rez must be doing the trick!" This is from 'just plain' playback, no attempts to maximize the discriminating power of the listening session. It's just someone on the $20 K forum, or AudioAsylum, or ComputerAudiophile, or here, or some Stereophile/TAS/Soudn & Vision reviewer, putting on two different versions of the same *music* and claiming, off the bat, that wow, such a big difference! and therefore: high rez rules!

THAT is the state of play. When the abovementioned parties rave about hi rez, are they responding to what Mike hears when he focuses on 1 subsecond of a jangling keys file?


FWIW, I'm still quite skeptical that anyone is really hearing the difference between 96 kHz and 44 kHz sampling -- because that difference should really only be the bandwidth above 22 kHz. So, the question should really be,what are they hearing?
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Last edited by krabapple; 07-21-2014 at 09:30 AM.
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