Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 81 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-24-2014, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Kung Fu deja vu?
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Speaking of Blue Coast Records, Cookie Marenco has some (cough, cough) "interesting" claims about the sound of audio files changing when sent through email, and that different file formats are allegedly more susceptible to this "problem".
That never happened to me. However, I discovered that if a virus is attached to the email, together with the audio file, singers' voices tend to sound nasal, and they start to mispronounce consonants (f's turn into v's) and so on.

However, if I put such file in a folder named "bed" togeter with a file named "fluids" and don't play it for about a week it goes back to normal.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Nice! Do I get a commission if I can sell him on the idea?

I'm thinking that there's got to be at least be a coffee in it for me!
Starbucks or Dunkin Donut's ?

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
That never happened to me. However, I discovered that if a virus is attached to the email, together with the audio file, singers' voices tend to sound nasal, and they start to mispronounce consonants (f's turn into v's) and so on.

However, if I put such file in a folder named "bed" togeter with a file named "fluids" and don't play it for about a week it goes back to normal.

After visiting the BCR website on a couple of occasions and reading the preposterous beyond belief disinformation there it would not surprise me if BCR is full of nasties . I dont think ms. Moreno has even a basic understanding of just how a PC (or any computer ) works . I suspect she would be completely lost on anything much beyond an analog mixing board and has no idea of the meaning of the words "resident code " !
It's obvious other folks are doing the" grunt work at BCR and always have I would however question their abilities also ☺☺

What is more interesting is BCR is featured at the Sony Music store it's obvious Sony has sold out any integrity they once had to to business opportunities eg, ( hires etc ) it's not the company Akio Morita and Masaru Ibuka
founded any more by a long shot, once they could command and earned respect . I'm not so sure that remains true today .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-25-2014 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post

IMO ABX audio testing is the most difficult of all such test's to produce conclusive data from, when it's being used to resolve the most challenging issues relating psychoacoustics, and linear and non-linear distortions occurring -80 dB and below.
Sounds like a highly biased opinion to me. The forest seems to be lost in a sea of trees.

The opinion of many well informed experts is that ABX is the easiest of the available array of reliable listening tests to produce conclusive data in those situations where a positive outcome is a reasonable expectation.

Anybody who knows much about psychoacoustics knows that reliable detection of artifacts 80 dB or more down is generally mission impossible, particularly for linear distortion. For example a 0.1 dB overall level mismatch (a common example of broadband linear distortion) is so difficult or impossible to detect that we recommend ignoring it in any test, and that's an artifact that is a whopping 40 dB down.

This has nothing to do with statistics, because ABX tests can be properly and acceptably analyzed using any statistical test that fits. People have been proposing alternative statistical tests for decades with promises of more sensitive results, but when everything is said and done everybody seems to again gather around the tried and true binomial distribution. Again, if you have to use really sophisiticated statistics to prove reliable detection, the difference has very little real world consequences.

But obsessing over statistics misses the point - good numbers are based on sensitive and reliable detection on a trial by trial basis. And, that is the core of ABX's technology and that is where it excels.

The best statement to make about audio testing is that sighted evaluations are the most difficult of all such tests to produce conclusive data from, when it's being used to resolve the most challenging issues relating psychoacoustics, and linear and non-linear distortions that are controversial, difficult or impossible. That's because when small differences are involved, sighted evaluations are so open to a myriad of irrelevant influences with a strong tendency to an overwhelming number of false positive results. Yet, over 99% of all purported audio tests are still casual sighted evaluations with essentially no controls at all.s
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post

IMO ABX audio testing is the most difficult of all such test's to produce conclusive data from, when it's being used to resolve the most challenging issues relating psychoacoustics, and linear and non-linear distortions occurring -80 dB and below.
Re tubetwister

Not at all in my case (sometimes ) anyway .I like to keep it simple. (most of the time ) ,First I check with Arny or read his posts here (that's usually pretty informative IMO bty ) ☺☺, or .. I just listen to it, if I like it it gets a thumbs up and stays ,if not it gets a thumbs down and I toss it outta here and I tell anybody that likes it to GTFO !(sometimes )





Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder ?

I realize it'a a rather simplistic ,authoritative and possibly quite incorrect method in a scientific sense but its quick and easy! ☺☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-25-2014 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Starbucks or Dunkin Donut's ?
I'll save you a few bucks and go with Dunkin.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:04 AM
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[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy

IMO ABX audio testing is the most difficult of all such test's to produce conclusive data from, when it's being used to resolve the most challenging issues relating psychoacoustics, and linear and non-linear distortions occurring -80 dB and below.

Sounds like a highly biased opinion to me. The forest seems to be lost in a sea of trees. Yes, can't argue against you there. I have an bias in regards to all measurement methods; they all have their respective places in my tool chest. I use them all, and often overlap their implementation on projects. Never hurts to view an problem or an occurrence from more than just one or two perspectives.

The opinion of many well informed experts is that ABX is the easiest of the available array of reliable listening tests to produce conclusive data in those situations where a positive outcome is a reasonable expectation. I can get along with this statement. ABX testing is a highly inclusive testing format, often highly portable for comparing audio files and usually fun. You can concretely demonstrate a lot of sonic dissimilarities using ABX, inversely there are arguably much fewer that you cannot.

Anybody who knows much about psychoacoustics knows that reliable detection of artifacts 80 dB or more down is generally mission impossible, particularly for linear distortion. For example a 0.1 dB overall level mismatch (a common example of broadband linear distortion) is so difficult or impossible to detect that we recommend ignoring it in any test, and that's an artifact that is a whopping 40 dB down. Mission impossible, not sure I completely agree, but to use ABX to repeatedly verify such, and gain a solid sample that could be viewed as a representation of the population as a whole, I'd say that's, currently mission impossible, when mining the minutia at theses levels. Above these levels, there's much usefulness in entering to such tests and demonstrations. Cables, might be impossible, amp, I must confess I do at times hear difference during ABX sessions, but it's not the norm.

This has nothing to do with statistics, because ABX tests can be properly and acceptably analyzed using any statistical test that fits. People have been proposing alternative statistical tests for decades with promises of more sensitive results, but when everything is said and done everybody seems to again gather around the tried and true binomial distribution. Again, if you have to use really sophisiticated statistics to prove reliable detection, the difference has very little real world consequences. Very interesting statements, to which I agree with most of it, but the use of the adjective "nothing" in regards to stats and ABX, is a tad over stated in my opinion.

But obsessing over statistics misses the point - good numbers are based on sensitive and reliable detection on a trial by trial basis. And, that is the core of ABX's technology and that is where it excels.

The best statement to make about audio testing is that sighted evaluations are the most difficult of all such tests to produce conclusive data from, when it's being used to resolve the most challenging issues relating psychoacoustics, and linear and non-linear distortions that are controversial, difficult or impossible. That's because when small differences are involved, sighted evaluations are so open to a myriad of irrelevant influences with a strong tendency to an overwhelming number of false positive results. Yet, over 99% of all purported audio tests are still casual sighted evaluations with essentially no controls at all. Who can produce a winnable arguement against that? I surely can't.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
What is more interesting is BCR is featured at the Sony Music store it's obvious Sony has sold out any integrity they once had to to business opportunities eg, ( hires etc ) it's not the company Akio Morita and Masaru Ibuka founded any more by a long shot, once they could command and earned respect . I'm not so sure that remains true today .
So you are saying that if the founder of a label says incorrect technical things, their music should not be distributed by Sony? That Sony should hire a team of technical experts to search the Internet and avoid carrying music from any producer whose founder says something incorrect technically???

Company execs often say the darndest things in public. That doesn't mean you take business action because of it. Everyone worships Steve Jobs' vision of technology and portable entertainment/computing. Here is what Steve had to say back in 2003 at Mossberg's all-D conference:

M [Walt Mossberg]: A lot of people think given the success you have had with portable devices, you should be making a tablet or a PDA.
J [Steve Jobs]: There are no plans to make a tablet. It turns out people want keyboards. When Apple first started out, "People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this." "We look at the tablet and we think itis going to fail." Tablets appeal to rich guys with plenty of other PCs and devices already. "And people accuse us of niche markets." I get a lot of pressure to do a PDA. What people really seem to want to do with these is get the data out . We believe cell phones are going to carry this information. We didn't think we'd do well in the cell phone business. What we've done instead is we've written what we think is some of the best software in the world to start syncing information between devices. We believe that mode is what cell phones need to get to. We chose to do the iPod instead of a PDA.


By your logic then, retailers like Amazon should have analyzed these statements and refused to carry iPods???

It is this kind of problem I have with "our camp." Someone says a technically incorrect thing. Instead of simply focusing on that, we make incorrect statements statements of our own that go way past the borders of the topic. Lack of respect on behalf of Sony for carrying their music???

Do you have an issue with Sony specifically that causes you to insert their name in totally unrelated topics?
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:46 AM
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Now, did Jobs say that with the utmost sincerity or was it intentional misdirection? The late former coach of the Boston Celtics would routinely scout college games where in attendance there would be other scouts. Red would occasionally walk out after a short time leading the other scouts to suspect he saw something that bothered him about the player hence causing the other scouts to not value the potential NBA prospect highly,

That said, I agree with your sensible economic assessment, Amir.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:51 AM
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Although I agree with Amir, HD audio wise Sony is not playing the most honest game. Remember the misleading stairstep graphics on their website.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:16 AM
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I'm always willing, able and ready, to engage those whom desire to debate me, and not bait me.

Good heavens, you thought I was baiting you??? Nothing could have been further from my mind. (Sometimes, when people say, "with all due respect," they really mean it.) Apologies for any miscommunication there.

You seem to be quite knowledgeable (and sensible), which is why I find your confusion about statistics so puzzling. But perhaps this is part of the problem:

Mission impossible, not sure I completely agree, but to use ABX to repeatedly verify such, and gain a solid sample that could be viewed as a representation of the population as a whole, I'd say that's, currently mission impossible,

Despite what you may think, no one uses ABX tests to establish principles that apply to "the population as a whole." We have much more robust tools for that. But the results of ABX tests generally corroborate the findings of those other methods, which is why we know it's a sound methodology (no pun intended).

The reason ABX tests come up so often in these discussions is that it's a relatively simple method for proving that you can hear something. (An ABX test cannot be used to prove that you can't hear something, although repeated failures are pretty indicative.) So when someone makes a silly claim about being about to tell cable brands apart, he's usually challenged to "do it blind."
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Old 07-25-2014, 01:23 PM
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How do I DBX my avitar?
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirm

So you are saying that if the founder of a label says incorrect
technical things, their music should not be distributed by Sony? That
Sony should hire a team of technical experts to search the Internet and
avoid carrying music from any producer whose founder says something
incorrect technically?

Re tubetwister,

Yes its called best business practices and vetting any business
that appears on your own website store a common and prudent
established business practice but I guess that is one more thing you
may not don't know about established best business practices .

A website vetting in this instance would only require a cursory review of the website
they intend to engage on their web store page in a business relationship unlike a content aggregater
that may host or link hundreds or even thousands of web pages .


Companies at Sony's scale would obviously have or could employ the
necessary resources to properly vett a website link at their own store
and their marketing practices and products .
................................ or just instead look the other way .

They also have IT staff, advertising ,risk management , field product assets and legal dept's .


In all likelihood the Sony Music Store website production and affiliated
retailers acquisition are outsourced from Sony music
that does not prevent a periodic field audit by risk management and any
augmented technical or IT assets that would be required it is a simple matter
of resource allocation and the resources need not necessarily be in the same
geographical location either .

Even giving Sony music the benefit of doubt thinking the left hand does not
know what the right hand is doing does not excuse aiding and abetting unethical
business practices and in some cases can present liability exposure as an unintended consequence


These things can and do happen in large organizations (I've seen that in my career also without proper controls and oversight.)

It's quite evident at GM on the 25th floor at GM and far below all the way to the plant (s) factory floors .
(think ignition key/switch /locks ). pretty nice up there GM Ren.sen. on the 25th floor BTW but have to be invited .
Hopefully Mary B. will get some of that straightened out but that's along road there and then some .
She may be in a rocker or at least retired by that time trust me it's in some respects like the VA☺☺
SRSLY they've got folks inputting handwritten paperwork internally , from the field and retailers to this day that otherwise would be E forms anywhere else and have been for years .




Are best scientific ethics similar to best business ethics is a question that immediately comes to mind .
I'm betting they may have some correlation at least intent wise .



As for as my opinion of Sony and their current business practices as
related to this discussion I believe that may be well above your level of
understanding in these matters as it is applied to this discussion

IIRC you posted something critical agreeing with another here about
BCR in an earlier post .wherein you agreed BCR says incorrect technical
things on their website and maybe you also thought it was wrong .

I'm assuming by your post here you believe it`s OK for Sony By proxy to
do much the same thing in this case by having BCR website prominently
represented at the Sony store !



Trying to have both ways are we now ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirm
Do you have an issue with Sony specifically that causes you to insert
their name in totally unrelated topics?
Re tubetwister,

I stated my opinions of Sony current business practices wherein they
apply to this discussion very clearly in my prior posting and again
above . and yes they are re related despite your opinion and judging by
other posted comments about the same you may be in the minority here .


Perhaps you should step back from whatever you are doing or thinking
and try to think a little more clearly at least where it relates to
business practices and business ethics specifically
related to Sony and BCR Sony Store vetting as discussed here.



I have issues with people that appear to post occasionally if for no other valid reason than to perpetuate ongoing and
confrontational discourse .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirm
Company execs often say the darndest things in public. That doesn't mean you take business action because of it.
re tube twister

Donald Sterling ,Paula Dean and Mozilla's Brendan Eich and Duck Dynasty patriarch Phil Robertson instantly come to mind there are more ! You just got owned ☺☺☺☺


Quote:
Originally Posted by Armirm
By your logic then, retailers like Amazon should have analyzed these
statements and refused to carry iPods???


J [Steve Jobs]: "There are no plans to make a tablet. It turns out people want keyboards. When Apple first started out, "People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this." "We look at the tablet and we think itis going to fail." Tablets appeal to rich guys with plenty of other PCs and devices already" etc. read more see post 2409 above
Re tubetwister,

Please don't think for me when you say thing like "by your logic " you are doing a rather poor job if it lately ☺☺

No Amazon was quite correct to carry any of Apples products as evidenced
by the sales revenues and general overall customer satisfaction levels
with the products it has no bearing whatsoever to what Steve Jobs may or
may not said about PDA's at one time or another if in fact he was quoted
correctly which we do not know.

BTW Jobs was quite correct about PDA's seen any PDA's latley ?. maybe
iPads and iphones and all the other similar phones and PDD's.



Further Sony Linking a website to their own web store that has misleading
specious and incorrect information about their products and or services
and by proxy theirs and possibly aiding and abetting poor business practices has nothing
to do with Amazon,the iPod product ,any Apple product or what Steve jobs
may or may not said if at one time or another regarding PDA's or
whatever in fact if he was even quoted correctly .

Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
It is this kind of problem I have with "our camp." Someone says a
technically incorrect thing. Instead of simply focusing on that, we make
incorrect statements statements of our own that go way past the borders
of the topic. Lack of respect on behalf of Sony for carrying their
music???


re tubetwister,

Again as I stated in an earlier discourse respect is earned ,not given and should never be assumed
or nor should anyone expect it without earning it get my drift ?



Just How are a Steve jobs quote about PDA or iPad and Amazon related to
this discussion,Sony or BCR or the OP tread topic in any way ?


TBH This statement of yours above doesn't even deserve the dignity of a
reply for all the reasons stated above .

This isn't a camp it isn't your camp it isn't my camp but rather they don't give out
marshmallows here but expect a sense of civil decorum

This is public forum for free discussion ,civil discourse and not
troll baiting or trying to bully anyone you don't agree with or that may not
agree with you when you can not support an argument .


There are after all people smarter right here at AVS in many areas than ether of us might be you know .
one can't always be the biggest fish in the pond .

,Come back with a high level Six Sigma belt and decades of
experience at the multinational corporate level in international
regional, and national business ,facilities ,sales and project
management at which point I will be more than happy to continue this
discussion of business practices and ethics .

Mark Zuckerberg as brilliant as he allegedly is likley leaves the business of business
to others including Sheryl Sanberg and the much his staff and management team .

You are in my area of experience as it relates to best business practices
business ethics and business in general .I don't know how else to
put it but your'e drowning here my friend .

From reading your recent postings here I sincerely hope you have good staffing wherever you have your business (s) and manage them as silent partner /investor/proprietor only or only at a technical level anyway
and perhaps leave the business of business to others.

Never met anybody that was right on everything all the time have you ?.☺☺


PS:I tried to conclude our discussion (s) amicably a couple of times
perhaps for some reason(s) you are unwilling to do that ?

,It matters not what I hear ............. but rather what I think I hear ........... or not !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 07-25-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Amir wrote,

Armin wrote,

armon wrote,

you're killing me.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
How do I DBX my avitar?
Riverse engineering.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:33 PM
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Or raverse?
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
you're killing me.
You are totally right ( no suprise BTW ) I need to get a life obviously

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 07-25-2014, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Yes its called best business practices and vetting any business that appears on your own website store a common and prudent established business practice but I guess that is one more thing you may not don't know about established best business practices .
You are new here are are not aware of my two digit IQ and lack of business acumen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tub
A website vetting in this instance would only require a cursory review of the website they intend to engage on their web store page in a business relationship unlike a content aggregater that may host or link hundreds or even thousands of web pages .
Such a cursory review would involve knowing what FLAC is, how audio compression and file transfers work, etc.?

You think Sony music has performed this due diligence with every band they publish? That they don't use drugs, pay all of their taxes, are good citizens of their town, donate money to the homeless, etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tb
Companies at Sony's scale would obviously have or could employ the necessary resources to properly vett a website link at their own store and their marketing practices and products . ................................ or just instead look the other way .

They also have IT staff, advertising ,risk management , field product assets and legal dept's . I guess that is one more thing you may not don't know about best business practices or large corporate business organizations .
No doubt you are right. I did work for Sony more than 5 years. Our music division licensed the rights to Michael Jackson's library (later merging with his company) and a short while later he was accused of you know, too close of a relationship with children. "We" stayed with him and our contract with him. How come we did that yet you think they should not link to BCR web site because of something to do with FLAC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubb
That's understandable considering your technical background and all Some team leaders rarely have to focus beyond a few projects, a number of cubicles and usually a singular group of associates
Present company hopefully is excluded . At the risk of appearing immodest, at Microsoft I managed a division 1,000 people (grew from a single employee). It was called a "division" because it had end to end responsibility from product development to marketing, business development, licensing, PR, etc. I equally spent my time between business and technical areas and enjoy both domains the same. We had our own building due to the large size of the group. So it was more than a "a number of cubicles." But point is well taken. What do I know about such things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttubb
Even giving Sony music the benefit of doubt thinking the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing does not excuse aiding and abetting unethical business practices and in some cases can present liability exposure as an unintended consequence
Aiding and abetting unethical business practices is right. Who should we report them to, FBI? Maybe NSA because they are a foreign company? Maybe NSA already knows from monitoring all of their activities to and from Japan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttub
IIRC you posted something critical agreeing with another here about BCR in an earlier post .wherein you agreed BCR says incorrect technical things on their website and maybe you also thought it was wrong . I'm assuming by your post here you believe it`s OK for Sony By proxy to do much the same thing in this case by having BCR website prominently
represented at the Sony store !
Yes, what Cookie said is totally wrong. Between us chickens, what you are saying puts her comments to shame. But remember before hitting the reply button in anger that as you have rightly said, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed here .

Quote:
Originally Posted by tub
Your sense of disconnection here regarding this issue and business ethics and good business practices in general is rather amazing and defies anything remotely related to common business sense .
I am curious. Why do you put space before your periods? You know, inquiring minds want to know .

Quote:
Originally Posted by but
Perhaps you should step back from whatever you are doing or thinking and try to think a little more clearly at least where it relates to business practices and business ethics .
There is that space before the period again .

Quote:
I have issues with people that appear to have no concept of best business practices or business in general much beyond the store proprietor level and question others that clearly do when it is not warranted if for no other valid reason than to perpetuate ongoing and confrontational discourse .
There it is again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by butt
Donald Sterling ,Paula Dean and Mozilla's Brendan Eich and Duck Dynasty patriarch Phil Robertson instantly come to mind there are more ! You just got owned ☺☺☺☺
Hey, wait in line. Lots more people have owned me on this forum. I even changed my name to "False Claim" in honor of my master, Arny, always calling me that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tttt
Please don't think for me when you say thing like "by your logic " you are doing a rather poor job if it lately ☺☺
Once in a while I lose track of my place in the AVS universe. I beg your forgiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubb
BTW Jobs was quite correct about PDA's seen any PDA's latley ?. maybe iPads and iphones and all the other similar phones and PDD's. Sorry to say maybe another business disconnect or maybe lack of business and business ethics best practices education and or experience ..
OK, now there is a space and another period before the final period. Is this some kind of morse code? "Dash Dot Dot" translates into letter D. "Dash Dot" translates into N. So we have lots of "Ns" and a "D."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttub
Again as I stated in an earlier discourse respect is earned ,not given and should never be assumed or nor should anyone expect it without earning it get my drift ?
There is no question mark in morse code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tibtub
TBH This statement of yours above doesn't even deserve the dignity of a reply for all the reasons stated above .
Another letter N.

Quote:
Amir , Come back with a high level Six Sigma belt and decades of experience at the multinational corporate level in international regional, and national business ,facilities ,sales and project management at which point I will be more than happy to continue this discussion of business practices and ethics ,two subjects I believe you don't quite understand as well as you might you seem quite detached from those two subjects in general as evidenced by this very discussion.
OK, we have letter "E" for the single dot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t
Mark Zuckerberg as brilliant as he allegedly is likley leaves the business of business to others including Sheryl Sanberg and the much his staff and management team maybe something to consider someday
Hmmm. No period. No dash. No morse code at all! The trail got cold....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubey
You are in my area of expertise as it relates to best business practices business ethics and business in general .TBH not the place for novice or a store (s) proprietor unless you wan't to learn something. I don't know how else to put it but your'e drowning here my friend .
You said it partner:



Quote:
Originally Posted by tubb
From reading your recent postings here I sincerely hope you have good staffing wherever you have your business (s) and manage them as silent partner /investor/proprietor only or only at a technical level anyway and perhaps leave the business of business to others.
Thank you for the advice. Truth to be told they won't even let me park my car in front of Madrona. I have to wear a disguise to be able to do that. Have you seen me in a mustache? Not a pretty sight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby
Never met anybody that was right on everything all the time have you ?.☺☺
No but you have met someone who knows morse code. Or more accurately, knows how to look it up using online tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tub
PS:I tried to conclude our discussion (s) amicably a couple of times perhaps for some reason(s) you are unwilling to do that ? ,It matters not what I hear ............. but rather what I think I hear ........... or not !
-- -.-- / -... .- -.. .-.-.- / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / .- -.-. -.-. . .--. - / -- -.-- / .- .--. --- .-.. --- --. -.-- .-.-.-

(Translation: My bad. Please accept my apology.)
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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On WBF Forum someone said they thought Arny's resampling of keys jingling to 44.1 was not optimal and asked me to perform another test. I did not have much time but I did use Audition CC to resample the 96 Kh file to 44.1 using TPDF dither. Here are the results:

-------

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/24 20:27:41

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling amir-converted 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

20:27:41 : Test started.
20:28:07 : 00/01 100.0%
20:28:25 : 00/02 100.0%
20:28:55 : 01/03 87.5%
20:29:02 : 02/04 68.8%
20:29:12 : 03/05 50.0%
20:29:20 : 04/06 34.4%
20:29:27 : 05/07 22.7%
20:29:36 : 06/08 14.5%
20:29:44 : 07/09 9.0%
20:29:55 : 08/10 5.5%
20:30:00 : 09/11 3.3%
20:30:07 : 10/12 1.9%
20:30:16 : 11/13 1.1%
20:30:22 : 12/14 0.6%
20:30:29 : 13/15 0.4%
20:30:36 : 14/16 0.2%
20:30:41 : 15/17 0.1%
20:30:53 : 16/18 0.1%
20:31:03 : 17/19 0.0%
20:31:07 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 17/19 (0.0%)


So, still audible .

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Old 07-25-2014, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Sounds like a highly biased opinion to me. The forest seems to be lost in a sea of trees.

The opinion of many well informed experts is that ABX is the easiest of the available array of reliable listening tests to produce conclusive data in those situations where a positive outcome is a reasonable expectation.

Anybody who knows much about psychoacoustics knows that reliable detection of artifacts 80 dB or more down is generally mission impossible, particularly for linear distortion. For example a 0.1 dB overall level mismatch (a common example of broadband linear distortion) is so difficult or impossible to detect that we recommend ignoring it in any test, and that's an artifact that is a whopping 40 dB down.

This has nothing to do with statistics, because ABX tests can be properly and acceptably analyzed using any statistical test that fits. People have been proposing alternative statistical tests for decades with promises of more sensitive results, but when everything is said and done everybody seems to again gather around the tried and true binomial distribution. Again, if you have to use really sophisiticated statistics to prove reliable detection, the difference has very little real world consequences.

But obsessing over statistics misses the point - good numbers are based on sensitive and reliable detection on a trial by trial basis. And, that is the core of ABX's technology and that is where it excels.

The best statement to make about audio testing is that sighted evaluations are the most difficult of all such tests to produce conclusive data from, when it's being used to resolve the most challenging issues relating psychoacoustics, and linear and non-linear distortions that are controversial, difficult or impossible. That's because when small differences are involved, sighted evaluations are so open to a myriad of irrelevant influences with a strong tendency to an overwhelming number of false positive results. Yet, over 99% of all purported audio tests are still casual sighted evaluations with essentially no controls at all.s
WRT the jangling keys files, has the IM distortion issue been ironed out, or are there still questions regarding the results of the participants?
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You are new here are are not aware of my two digit IQ and lack of business acumen.
tube twister

By your postings regarding business ethics(related to the Sony Music website thing ) yes that would cast some doubt to me in those areas as applied to this discussion perhaps haven't yet realized you might not know everything quite yet either ?\
Common to a lot of business owners some times they can't help themselves it may be a clinically disposable thing ?
Saw a lot of it dealing with franchised dealers now and then even worse the more locations they had !

IQ..... I'm sure you are more than OK perhaps substantially above the norm the sometimes explains arrogant and otherwise abrasive personality tendencies , sometimes not not to mention the internet thing .
Behind the internet it could be we all take on different traits sometimes unintentionally you might be a great guy to have a cold one with in person in any event I Imagine you could tell some interesting story's that many could not .

Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Such a cursory review would involve knowing what FLAC is, how audio compression and file transfers work, etc.?
re tubetwiater
They could surely ask you no? or you otherwise could refer them to someone who does maybe ?
or just go to a geek site maybe Bleeping Computer or Toms Hardware .... or here?

Somehow I think they should be able to muster existing or employed assets to do the job. if they made the commitment.
Issue only involves the affiliated re sellers not the individual performers so the resources required wouldn't be insurmountable or even unreasonable .

i

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
You think Sony music has performed this due diligence with every band they publish? That they don't use drugs, pay all of their taxes, are good citizens of their town, donate money to the homeless, etc?
tube twister
Again artists are not and never were the issue here only affiliated re sellers.
See above

re Tubetwister
If they don't allocate resources finanical or otherwise it won't get done again for only affiliated re sellers only it should not be difficult at all and is common business practice.

On the vetting . you forgot ..morals or artist were never the issue see above

OTOH they haven't made very good business decisions overall for quite some time as is evident in their financials .

Quote:
Originally Posted by arminm
No doubt you are right. I did work for Sony more than 5 years. Our music division licensed the rights to Michael Jackson's library (later merging with his company) and a short while later he was accused of you know, too close of a relationship with children. "We" stayed with him and our contract with him. How come we did that yet you think they should not link to BCR web site because of something to do with FLAC?

FLAC has never been the issue at lest for me in this discussion I believe Sony's new hires hdd players support FLAC anyway
M. Jackson I believe was Highly indebted to Sony Entertainment at the time and they were in contract with him I'm sure risk management made what they felt was the appropriate decisions in that case from the business perspective and and did not choose to enforce any morals clause (s) that * may have been in the contract since Jackson was never convicted that posed little risk in the end not to mention the entertainment industry is a little more tolerant of these thing historically .

Further for purposes of this discussion the artists were never the issue only the affiliated re sellers the fact you could not immediately see that from the begging early on and can
not connect or separate the issues does indeed raise some concern on [U]this one issue .

Sony could otherwise set their re seller standards a little higher-and insist that any retailer on the website complies with the most basic of business ethics that not being fraudulent, appearing to be fraudulent, or misleading in any way.
But then they would in turn have do likewise no? .....but that is another discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
[/B]Present company hopefully is excluded . At the risk of appearing immodest, at Microsoft I managed a division 1,000 people (grew from a single employee). It was called a "division" because it had end to end responsibility from product development to marketing, business development, licensing, PR, etc. I equally spent my time between business and technical areas and enjoy both domains the same. We had our own building due to the large size of the group. So it was more than a "a number of cubicles." But point is well taken. What do I know about such things.
re tubetwister
Perhaps I was mistaken please accept my apology if that is the case but I've seen incompetents elected to the US presidency lately so that proves little if anything but I'm sure that is not the case here You think that is fun try factory (s) from ground up both opening and closing ofc I was just one of many but still had responsibilitys ☺
Yes permits and licencing can be time consuming and arduous at times especially with government employees with no accountability.

EPA had me in their Rolodex also at times no fun to get interrupted during a family BBQ having cold one
to respond to an 'incident 'I can tell you that is a fact! ....................

As you can see from the direction of this discussion has taken lately unfortunately I still have some concerns 'about
the Sony BCR thing on your part though .
But then software companies have always been a little shady maybe you cant help it being a Microsoft alumni and all

OTOH I worked closely with legal at times *(first name bases with the big cheeses )and rotated into
field product warranty /liability for a time been to court representing the co.(s) more times than I care to remember
that may skew my perspective in the prudent direction in risk analysis in fact I know it does that gives you a big
strategic view of every business decision and contingency plan you make trust me on that one .
and you become much more attuned to areas of liability exposure one would never think of in a million years.
yet they occur routinely even with employees .

People go into businesses routinely and "take a header " the avg nuisance settlement
is 15 -30 grand + medical at depsition/arbritaion + our legal fees can add up to a like amount .
so figure a min 30- 60 grand ~ same amt for a workers compensation claim for a simple strain
worked those claims also now and then I could do them eyes closed after a while !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
Aiding and abetting unethical business practices is right. Who should we report them to, FBI? Maybe NSA because they are a foreign company? Maybe NSA already knows from monitoring all of their activities to and from Japan?
tubetwister,

WE have jurisdiction to their North American assets and receipts also there is likely a respirocity
agreement with the home land very common in these situations . That's why Chevron oil is maybe sweating bricks over
some SA countries right now with regards to some past and current environmental practices some in the Amazon .
if I'm not mistaken NAFTA * may have * presented some additional opportunities for SA actions in that respect also .
at lest that is the word anyway . Just some things you won't usually see on the 5:00 news . be intresting to see
what they amortize for anticipated expenses they are phatt now so if they pay off the right folks down there
they might not incur a lot of pain this time around thats how these things *sometimes work out despite what 5:00 news says.

.
tubetwister,
In a sane world the free market informed consumers might question what they see at any given web site and make this conversation irrelevant ,again as for Sonys position and reasonable remedies we already discussed that.
see above .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
Yes, what Cookie said is totally wrong. Between us chickens, what you are saying puts her comments to shame. But remember before hitting the reply button in anger that as you have rightly said, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed here .
tubetwister,

Good we agree on one thing at lest I told you we cold find some common ground this is a start .

I never said IQ thing only that I just questioned your overall business acumen actually but we have narrowed that down considerably now . I never questioned your intelligence just perhaps just some other things based on some of your postings .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
I am curious. Why do you put space before your periods? You know, inquiring minds want to know .
Tubetwister
Actually I do not (consciously anyway maybe sometimes I do could be senior moments ) OTOH I type my longer replies in notepad and when I copy and paste to here windows or the web browser sometime formats the text a little oddly ,I'm sure you understand how that could happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by armin,
There is that space before the period again .


There it is again!
tubetwister
told ya see above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armin
Hey, wait in line. Lots more people have owned me on this forum. I even changed my name to "False Claim" in honor of my master, Arny, always calling me that.
tubetwister

OK you can have yourself back ......... please apologize to your significant others for the time I took you away from them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armin
Once in a while I lose track of my place in the AVS universe. I beg your forgiveness.
tube twister

OK you are not the only one by a long shot after all it's just a Forum!I never understood that except for ribbing newbies (only to encourage them to learn a little now and then ofc)
Ofc I will never learn the coding thing or most computer things at or near your level but you already know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armin
OK, now there is a space and another period before the final period. Is this some kind of morse code? "Dash Dot Dot" translates into letter D. "Dash Dot" translates into N. So we have lots of "Ns" and a "D."
Tubetwister
Could be a new stiffer keyboard , I may be double keying now and then because of that , an IBM AT mechanical sure or something similar would be nice I'm going to think about getting one I hate membrane keyboards ! I'm not liking this new board yet may return to Amazon for something else any recommendations ?

Folks that never used a decent mechanical don't know . I kept an AT keyboard forever like 5 PC's ofc that was a while ago I was a serial upgrader then now I try to make them last 3- 4 yrs although on this one I upgraded the hdd
CPU.cooler,video,ram.,sound + clean install at ~ 2.5 yrs all in all I guess I can't resist the urge still
it moves right along well now though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Armin
There is no question mark in morse code.
Tubetwister
Sorry it's a new code I picked up on twitter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
Another letter N.


OK, we have letter "E" for the single dot.


Hmmm. No period. No dash. No morse code at all! The trail got cold...
.


Tubetwister

Twitter code again .....sorry..............or maybe Senior moment both good exuses anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
(drowning picture reply here ) to earlier tube twister remark " you are drowning here my friend"


You said it partner:.
.

tube twister
Nice pool you have there is it heated for the winter months?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
Thank you for the advice. Truth to be told they won't even let me park my car in front of Madrona. I have to wear a disguise to be able to do that. Have you seen me in a mustache? Not a pretty sight!
tube twister

I was being fecetious and sarcastic I hope you understand. but the business acumen thing (for the Sony store website )stands for now .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminm
referring to tube twister sig............... I think?
No but you have met someone who knows morse code. Or more accurately, knows how to look it up using online tools.


-- -.-- / -... .- -.. .-.-.- / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / .- -.-. -.-. . .--. - / -- -.-- / .- .--. --- .-.. --- --. -.-- .-.-.-

(Translation: My bad. Please accept my apology.)
tube twister
Maybe it'a a bandwidth CDN ,ISP or Router issue? I can't figure out why the data packets weren't reconstructed and resorted some where along the line though? .......Any Ideas that's your expertise ?

At least we have moved on from authoritative vitriolic discourse in no small part to your efforts here
some rather humorous that's an encouraging sign and it was kind of fun much better than the other stuff ☺☺

Regards

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-29-2014 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
WRT the jangling keys files, has the IM distortion issue been ironed out, or are there still questions regarding the results of the participants?
It appears to me that people are abusing the tools that I developed for this study. I started getting email from people who post at another forum, and found that they had only been told about a certain person's successes, and very little about the IM distortion issue. I found no posting of links or discussion of the test tone files that were very diagnostic for this problem.

BTW the proper download link is:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ylrjezd7vc...st%20tones.zip

I've deleted all the other keys jangling files files in the public section of my Dropbox account on the grounds of observed improper use.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
On WBF Forum someone said they thought Arny's resampling of keys jingling to 44.1 was not optimal and asked me to perform another test. I did not have much time but I did use Audition CC to resample the 96 Kh file to 44.1 using TPDF dither.
Typical of what happens when one is not there to defend themselves or their work. I became aware of the WBF discussions and found that they were, no surprize based on a selective subset of what had been going on over here. In particular there seemed to be no evidence of use or even acknowlegement of the existence of the IM test files even though there were dozens of posts since they were made available.

The original files were made with TPDF dither, so remaking them with TPDF dither is gratuitous.

The last change I made was to move the first twin tone up to 23 and 27 KHz to put it cleanly above the Nyquist frequency for 44KHz sampling. I added a tenth of a second of silence to the end of the file to circumvent audio interfaces that may shut down prematurely and not reproduce the last click properly.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
On WBF Forum someone said they thought Arny's resampling of keys jingling to 44.1 was not optimal and asked me to perform another test. I did not have much time but I did use Audition CC to resample the 96 Kh file to 44.1 using TPDF dither. Here are the results:

-------

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/24 20:27:41

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling amir-converted 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

20:27:41 : Test started.
20:28:07 : 00/01 100.0%
20:28:25 : 00/02 100.0%
20:28:55 : 01/03 87.5%
20:29:02 : 02/04 68.8%
20:29:12 : 03/05 50.0%
20:29:20 : 04/06 34.4%
20:29:27 : 05/07 22.7%
20:29:36 : 06/08 14.5%
20:29:44 : 07/09 9.0%
20:29:55 : 08/10 5.5%
20:30:00 : 09/11 3.3%
20:30:07 : 10/12 1.9%
20:30:16 : 11/13 1.1%
20:30:22 : 12/14 0.6%
20:30:29 : 13/15 0.4%
20:30:36 : 14/16 0.2%
20:30:41 : 15/17 0.1%
20:30:53 : 16/18 0.1%
20:31:03 : 17/19 0.0%
20:31:07 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 17/19 (0.0%)


So, still audible .
Also, still using obsolete test files.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
It appears to me that people are abusing the tools that I developed for this study. I started getting email from people who post at another forum, and found that they had only been told about a certain person's successes, and very little about the IM distortion issue. I found no posting of links or discussion of the test tone files that were very diagnostic for this problem.

BTW the proper download link is:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ylrjezd7vc...st%20tones.zip

I've deleted all the other keys jangling files files in the public section of my Dropbox account on the grounds of observed improper use.
So just for my own clarification, ultrasonic content in the files may be causing IM distortion and affecting the outcome of the test. And some of those claiming a positive outcome have not reliably demonstrated that IM distortion has not affected their files during playback. Would that sum it up?

It's a shame that someone is so emotionally (financially?) invested in their biases that they would stoop to such unethical shenanigans and spoil this experiment for everyone else.
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
So just for my own clarification, ultrasonic content in the files may be causing IM distortion and affecting the outcome of the test.
Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
And some of those claiming a positive outcome have not reliably demonstrated that IM distortion has not affected their files during playback. Would that sum it up?
I'll let their comments stand on their own without any interpretation from me. Right now the results seem to be spread over several threads even on different forums and mixed with irrelevant comments.

I know that several people have found IM in some of their monitoring systems and have reported it. There has been a surprisingly high incidence of this problem and no discernible correlation with the price range or high end pretensions of the audio gear involved.
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Very true.



I'll let their comments stand on their own without any interpretation from me. Right now the results seem to be spread over several threads even on different forums and mixed with irrelevant comments.

I know that several people have found IM in some of their monitoring systems and have reported it. There has been a surprisingly high incidence of this problem and no discernible correlation with the price range or high end pretensions of the audio gear involved.
It is certainly an interesting phenomena. I guess that if the media being played has no ultrasonic content, and their equipment isn't capable of ultrasonic reproduction (including transducers) then one needn't be concerned and enjoy their system. Seems like a case of over-performance creating unintended consequences.

Btw, I cruised on over to the aforementioned forum and I see that someone's ego has been inflated to a point that he is considering submitting a paper to AES about his "result". Oh my.
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Also, still using obsolete test files.
Obsolete? You provided us with a recording of keys jingling that you made 14 years ago. *I* resampled them by a much more modern and up-to-date version of the software you used. And I am still able to differentiate the files reliably.

So no Arny, there is nothing "obsolete" about listening to a recording and its downsampled version. This is what folks do when they down sample their music creations to 44/16. And the difference is audible to me.

Amir
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:59 AM
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btw for newbies here, the way to quote correctly is to make sure that 'quote="whoever"' is the opening tag on *every* quoted section, even if the sections are from the same post. This is a new thing at AVSF

e.g. (I've omitting opening and closing brackets here, so the examples don't turn into quotes! But every 'quote' or /quote tag should have brackets around it)

(open)quote=R2D2(close)

blah blah section 1

(open)/quote(close)

reply to 1




(open)quote=R2D2(close)

blah blah section 2

(open)/quote(close)


reply to 2


etc

Last edited by krabapple; 07-26-2014 at 09:04 AM.
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