Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 84 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 734Likes
 
Thread Tools
post #2491 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,478
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
My results have no bearing on yours.
They do on your claim of ethics where you ask for others to run DBTs yet you refuse to run and report on any yourself.

Quote:
As far as I know, IM still hasn't been ruled out, and you have been unwilling to help Arny rule it out.
You are confusing double talk on "IM distortion" with data. Here is data/my answer to Arny's IM test: Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test

---------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
OK, here's my first shot at an IM test.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xk18jgqmu...st%20tones.zip

There are two files in the zip file - both 2496, both containing the usual keys jangling sound, but at the end are 4 seconds of test tones.

(2) Now move on to listening to just the last 4 seconds of the files. The contents of the last 4 seconds of the file should sound like a -30 dB 4 KHz tone (not at all ear splitting), followed by a click, 1 second of silence, a click, 1 second of silence, a click, 1 second of silence, a click and end, whether you listen to the 2496 or the 1644 version. Please report what you hear for both files. Do not change your volume control between the keys jangling ABX listening and an the test tone listening. You do not need to ABX the test tone segments, just do sighted listening and report your subjective impressions.
OK, I am finally home and here are my results. Remember though, if anything I say is wrong, I will be blaming it on the dogs!

96 Khz: it is as you say.

44 KHz: All there except the last click is exceptionally quiet. I had to significantly turn up the volume to hear it.

Let's investigate the difference. Here is the last part of the 96 Khz file:



Look where the red vertical line is, and to the right of that you see the last audio sample represented by a dot. Eyeballing it is at -4 db. Remembering that 0 db is full amplitude, this is way, way up there as far as amplitude. Since there is no other sample after that, you go from -4 db to -infinity (or the noise floor of the system) which creates an absolutely sharp vertical line. This is a classic "impulse" which means it has infinite bandwidth (limited by the sampling rate) and will sound like a click or pop as Arny mentions.

Now let's look at the down sampled 16/44:



I have zoomed in more on this waveform but otherwise it is the same as the 96 Khz one.

Again, look at the last audio sample on the right. The value is now is at -50 db. We once again go to silence after that since there are no more audio samples. But there is a big difference here with respect to the 96 Khz file: our impulse/sharp drops from -50 db to 0 as opposed to -4 db. We still get our full spectrum of waveforms as a result of the impulse but the total energy is far, far lower in the 16/44 file. It is like pushing a swing with your little finger versus your whole body. The former will not move the swing nearly as much as the latter would.

At the same level that I was listening to for the 96 Khz file, the click at the end for the 44 Khz one was not audible to me. I had to boost the levels to max to hear it. The above is the reason.

Now, turns out you could hear a much louder pop in the 16/4 than what you should have. When you play an audio file and you get to the end, the audio channel is "closed." What the sound hardware does at that point is "undefined." Ideally you would want it to go to silence as mine did but it may not. It may actually change the electrical (DC) characteristics of the DAC and cause a pop by itself. So if you are hearing a loud pop, that is the reason. It is not due to the two waveforms being similarly situated.

Given the system dependent nature of this last pop, the better test would have been to fade to zero and have both waveforms have that zero value. If a click is desired, it could be inserted in a controlled manner from max amplitude to zero as opposed to where it happened to land in the current test.

Anyway, probably way more information than anyone wanted to read first thing in the morning .

As the soup nazi would say, "no IM distortion for you" in regards to my HP laptop.

Thanks as always for your hard work Arny.

---------------------------------------------------------

It is just hard for Arny to come out and say that his theory of IM distortion above does not apply to my results.

Quote:
So much for ethics.
As I said, keep posting .

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2492 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,478
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
False claim. These are not spectral analysis, they are displays of amplitude versus time. Digital Audio 101.
I stand corrected. Type faster than I can think . Thanks Arny. The rest of my post stands .

Quote:
Please try again!
Nothing to try again Arny. Would love to understand why you thought -6 dbfs average volume tone would be representative of "IM distortion" in a clip that is at -34 dbfs.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is online now  
post #2493 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:02 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If hardware ABX switchers were commonly used and still in production, which they aren't
False claim.

For example there is an ABX comparator in the recent releases of "Mastered For iTunes". It has been there since no later than 2012:

http://www.trustmeimascientist.com/2...ng-for-itunes/

"Even using a simple frequency analyzer would have been a step in the right direction. But ultimately, a blind ABX test would be necessary to get any sense of which file sounds closer to the original when heard by real-world listeners."

There is a app called "ABX Tester" apparently for iPads and iPhones that is being distributed at the Apple iTunes App store.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/abxt...27554135?mt=12
arnyk is offline  
post #2494 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:11 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Hi Arny. I suspect you are not using Task Manager correctly. Be sure to check the box that says "Show Processes from All Users":



This is a random snapshot from Internet to show the checkbox at the bottom.
MS made some dramatic changes to the Task Manager in Windows 8.1, which is the release of windows that I said I am using.



It has no apparent "Show Processes from All Users" flag.

There is a registry hack it seems that will bring back the 7.1 and previous releases task manager in Windows 8.x, but I'm not running it.

Here's a good procedure:

(1) Engage Brain.
(2) Commence Posting.

Please try it some time! ;-)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	windows 8.png
Views:	152
Size:	89.3 KB
ID:	183010  
tubetwister likes this.

Last edited by arnyk; 07-27-2014 at 04:16 PM.
arnyk is offline  
post #2495 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:13 PM
Senior Member
 
stereoeditor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
As far as I know, IM still hasn't been ruled out...
I posted the results of detailed tests on three different D/A headphone amplifiers this morning, definitively showing that the issue of intermodulation disortion with high sample-rate files was a red herring.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
stereoeditor is offline  
post #2496 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:14 PM
Senior Member
 
koturban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
They do on your claim of ethics where you ask for others to run DBTs yet you refuse to run and report on any yourself.


You are confusing double talk on "IM distortion" with data. Here is data/my answer to Arny's IM test: Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test

---------------------------------------------


OK, I am finally home and here are my results. Remember though, if anything I say is wrong, I will be blaming it on the dogs!

96 Khz: it is as you say.

44 KHz: All there except the last click is exceptionally quiet. I had to significantly turn up the volume to hear it.

Let's investigate the difference. Here is the last part of the 96 Khz file:



Look where the red vertical line is, and to the right of that you see the last audio sample represented by a dot. Eyeballing it is at -4 db. Remembering that 0 db is full amplitude, this is way, way up there as far as amplitude. Since there is no other sample after that, you go from -4 db to -infinity (or the noise floor of the system) which creates an absolutely sharp vertical line. This is a classic "impulse" which means it has infinite bandwidth (limited by the sampling rate) and will sound like a click or pop as Arny mentions.

Now let's look at the down sampled 16/44:



I have zoomed in more on this waveform but otherwise it is the same as the 96 Khz one.

Again, look at the last audio sample on the right. The value is now is at -50 db. We once again go to silence after that since there are no more audio samples. But there is a big difference here with respect to the 96 Khz file: our impulse/sharp drops from -50 db to 0 as opposed to -4 db. We still get our full spectrum of waveforms as a result of the impulse but the total energy is far, far lower in the 16/44 file. It is like pushing a swing with your little finger versus your whole body. The former will not move the swing nearly as much as the latter would.

At the same level that I was listening to for the 96 Khz file, the click at the end for the 44 Khz one was not audible to me. I had to boost the levels to max to hear it. The above is the reason.

Now, turns out you could hear a much louder pop in the 16/4 than what you should have. When you play an audio file and you get to the end, the audio channel is "closed." What the sound hardware does at that point is "undefined." Ideally you would want it to go to silence as mine did but it may not. It may actually change the electrical (DC) characteristics of the DAC and cause a pop by itself. So if you are hearing a loud pop, that is the reason. It is not due to the two waveforms being similarly situated.

Given the system dependent nature of this last pop, the better test would have been to fade to zero and have both waveforms have that zero value. If a click is desired, it could be inserted in a controlled manner from max amplitude to zero as opposed to where it happened to land in the current test.

Anyway, probably way more information than anyone wanted to read first thing in the morning .

As the soup nazi would say, "no IM distortion for you" in regards to my HP laptop.

Thanks as always for your hard work Arny.

---------------------------------------------------------

It is just hard for Arny to come out and say that his theory of IM distortion above does not apply to my results.


As I said, keep posting .
Find a single post where I have challenged anyone to take the test.
koturban is offline  
post #2497 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:20 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I posted the results of detailed tests on three different D/A headphone amplifiers this morning, definitively showing that the issue of intermodulation disortion with high sample-rate files was a red herring.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Really? What you showed is that there are indeed headphone amps with no audible problems with IM. which I have been saying all along. IMO some do have audible imperfections, some don't. at least as far as IM (and therefore nonlinear distortion) goes. Thanks for documenting my claims. Too bad about the false conclusion.

Problem is, not all headphone amps sound the same, and you can even quote me on that point. ;-)

Or, will your nest issue of Stereophile make the claim, based on the evidence mentioned above, that all headphone amps sound the same and are free of audible imperfections? ;-) I'm thinking not so much!
tubetwister likes this.
arnyk is offline  
post #2498 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:28 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I stand corrected. Type faster than I can think . Thanks Arny. The rest of my post stands .
Yes, that is a joke. The post is based on a gross error, so how can it stand? Thanks for the smiley.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Nothing to try again Arny. Would love to understand why you thought -6 dbfs average volume tone would be representative of "IM distortion" in a clip that is at -34 dbfs.
Another great guote for my book: "Why Amir shouldn't call himself a Psychocoustics Expert". Average levels is not the only representative statistics for an audio file, especially one with a high crest factor. Peak amplitude means something, too. Or Amir do you think that its OK to clip off the peaks during a critical test for small differences like this one?

Here's a graphic from your post: Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test



Amir, your own documentation shows that the peak level of the Keys file is about the same as the peak level of my test tones, which is good form for bench testing whether you understand bench testing audio gear or not.

I can show several 100 tech tests from Stereophile that show our dear friend John Atkinson testing audio gear with steady state sine waves whose amplitude is similar to that of the peak values of thee audio signals that it might encounter in actual use, if that is what it takes to convince you of your error. ;-)
arnyk is offline  
post #2499 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,478
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Find a single post where I have challenged anyone to take the test.
Here is you asking for DBTs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
1. What was the resistance of the Belden cable?

2. Did the coat hanger sound better or worse than any of the others in a DBT?
In this thread we have you not been willing to take a DBT test and report on its results.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is online now  
post #2500 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 736 Post(s)
Liked: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by arynk
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Here is the link for my idea of killer 24/96 .wav files files for using ABX to hear potential audible differences due to differences in bandpass and resolution:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l86f7oc7c...ww14Mrta1zs3Ca

Be careful with these files - the full bandpass version has so much ultrasonic energy that it can possibly take out your tweeters and you won't even think that it is playing very loud. They are also highly diagnostic for high frequency IM.

[spectrums showing the effect of downsampling removed for brevity]
Listen away guys! If you can't hear a difference between these files, hang it up...

I have Altered above text of the quote in part. Please note two underlined added words at the very end of the sentence immediately below .

"Here is the link for my idea of killer 24/96 .wav files files for using ABX to hear potential audible differences due to differences in bandpass and resolution or not: "

Consider this ,Perhaps if these two words were added at the very end of the quote as I have done immediately above and underlined it could possibly further clarify ones interpretation of intent one way or another . I believe the original intent would remain unchanged .

I believe this *may demonstrate in part* the vagaries and various
interpretations one may or may not attribute to written words in some cases.

Maybe Arnyk would be so kind as to comment and answer this supposition
as it applies to the immediate discussion and was in part IMO raised earlier in this discussion .

Again I am not disputing the supposition (s) that anyone may or may not be able to tell a difference (however small that may or may not be) in the perceived sound of the files.

My bar for hires has always been a little different from a yes/no result in that my question remains to be proven regardless of the final outcome here in that does hires music recording and playback ( in itself )present an significant easily demonstrated value added difference to the consumer and enthusiast alike which of course is another discussion altogether but could perhaps be related if one were able to make that interpretation.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-27-2014 at 04:59 PM. Reason: wri
tubetwister is offline  
post #2501 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:41 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
My results have no bearing on yours.

As far as I know, IM still hasn't been ruled out, and you have been unwilling to help Arny rule it out.

So much for ethics.
Speaking of helping people rule IM out, I decided to test my own monitoring system on this PC which I know to be flawed:



This should effectively counter JA's claim that all monitoring systems are free from audible IM and therefore the issue is according to him a red herring.

The other 2 tests are at least as bad, but no need to waste bandwidth or people's time with them.

Given that Amir claims access to good test equipment it wouldn't be hard for him to provide the same information on the systems he used.

BTW, here is an ABX log for a run with the above monitoring system, levels and passage selection fudged err optimized to create maximum "Correct" results:

---------------------

*Note - levels and passage selection fudged for best false positives


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/28 07:53:00

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3 4416.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3.wav

07:53:00 : Test started.
07:54:38 : Trial reset.
07:56:40 : 01/01 50.0%
07:56:55 : 02/02 25.0%
07:57:15 : 03/03 12.5%
07:57:21 : 04/04 6.3%
07:57:27 : 05/05 3.1%
07:57:35 : 06/06 1.6%
07:57:42 : 06/07 6.3%
07:57:55 : 07/08 3.5%
07:58:10 : 08/09 2.0%
07:58:27 : 09/10 1.1%
07:58:35 : 10/11 0.6%
07:58:52 : 11/12 0.3%
07:59:09 : 12/13 0.2%
07:59:15 : 13/14 0.1%
07:59:22 : 14/15 0.0%
07:59:52 : 15/16 0.0%
07:59:59 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)

---------------------------------

Sorry about the one I missed, I think I mistakenly hit the "Play A" button instead of the "Play X" button but recorded the result anyway.

I used the latest version of the files, downloadable from here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rjaw0fd9vg...tones%20f3.zip, not that it would make a difference.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pcta machine IM 23-27 Khz.png
Views:	195
Size:	22.1 KB
ID:	183026  

Last edited by arnyk; 07-28-2014 at 06:06 AM.
arnyk is offline  
post #2502 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,478
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Another great guote for my book: "Why Amir shouldn't call himself a Psychocoustics Expert".
Honestly Arny. It is inhumane to keep telling people my failings in understanding psychoacoustics. Appreciate you not constantly rubbing it in . We all know there is one and only one expert in this forum on that topic and that is you.

Quote:
Average levels is not the only representative statistics for an audio file, especially one with a high crest factor. Peak amplitude means something, too. Or Amir do you think that its OK to clip off the peaks during a critical test for small differences like this one?
[...]
Amir, your own documentation shows that the peak level of the Keys file is about the same as the peak level of my test tones, which is good form for bench testing whether you understand bench testing audio gear or not.
That is another thing I don't understand which would be nice if you didn't tell others Arny. It is a struggle for me to answer your audio challenges and attempt to rise up to your level. But if you don't mind, I will try in this instance .

Here is the spectrum of your file analyzed with the two parts separately. I selected the real recording which was the "key jingling" part in red and asked Audition CC to give us its frequency spectrum/make up and then selected your test tones and overlayed its spectrum in green:



Would you please explain, without calling me stupid again , how it is that you say if we hear distortions as a results of those hugely elevated test tones in green, that it would explain hearing the same in the actual recording of the keys we have been comparing?

Clearly any IM distortion generated due to those tall green peaks, would have to be derated by about 60 db for the real track?

Quote:
I can show several 100 tech tests from Stereophile that show our dear friend John Atkinson testing audio gear with steady state sine waves whose amplitude is similar to that of the peak values of thee audio signals that it might encounter in actual use, if that is what it takes to convince you of your error. ;-)


Arny I didn't think you subscribed to the same philosophy in audio as John. As such, what he does or doesn't do has nothing to do with tests you have provided to us to run. I am asking if you think you put together a proper test with respect to the lessons you always teach us in caring about "real/normal/typical" situations.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is online now  
post #2503 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 05:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 736 Post(s)
Liked: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Really? What you showed is that there are indeed headphone amps with no audible problems with IM. which I have been saying all along. IMO some do have audible imperfections, some don't. at least as far as IM (and therefore nonlinear distortion) goes. Thanks for documenting my claims. Too bad about the false conclusion.

Problem is, not all headphone amps sound the same, and you can even quote me on that point. ;-)

Or, will your nest issue of Stereophile make the claim, based on the evidence mentioned above, that all headphone amps sound the same and are free of audible imperfections? ;-) I'm thinking not so much!
Yes I belive my Xonar STX PC sound card with internal headphone amplifier (and changeable op amps for the advertised purposes of altering the headphone sound ) does indeed often sound different from my professional studio interface on the same headphones ( + different PC) at approximately similar levels .

Again on this system (Win 7 x64 PC with Xonar STX 192kHz amplified sound card and Senninheiser studio headphones I can hear~ maybe 7 -10 or more ? )faint transient clicks at varying repeatable intervals while the keys are jangling then the test tone clearly without audible distortion as well as the two preceding clicks preceded by and followed by a brief dead silence clearly and without audible distortion at intermediate ,and high levels. I have not (as yet ) reliably determined any difference in sound between the 2 original download files . Presently I do not have what I believe to be a valid opinion on an AB/ABX result only a cursory supposition . I might try to put these samples on parallel tracks in a sound editor and mark the faint transient click intervals individually for comparison .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-27-2014 at 06:06 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #2504 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 05:19 PM
Senior Member
 
stereoeditor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
I posted the results of detailed tests on three different D/A headphone amplifiers this morning, definitively showing that the issue of intermodulation distortion with high sample-rate files was a red herring.
Really? What you showed is that there are indeed headphone amps with no audible problems with IM. which I have been saying all along.
Okay, I have posted measurements of three D/A headphone amplifiers, one AC-powered, two bus-powered, where audible IM distortion products in the audioband with ultrasonic content are not a problem, as long as they are not driven into clipping. I have four more on deck that I will be measuring tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
IMO some do have audible imperfections, some don't. at least as far as IM (and therefore nonlinear distortion) goes.
So please post the measurements you have performed on typical D/A headphone amplifiers where audible IM distortion is indeed a problem with ultrasonic content. It's your hypothesis, Mr. Krueger, but you have yet to show any supporting evidence.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
stereoeditor is offline  
post #2505 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 05:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 207 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You should perform the listening tests and the answer to these questions would then be obvious.

...
Maybe I should but am not in a position to do so.
But, he posted considering what it takes for me to hear those faint tones, i.e. turn everything up to dangerously high levels,
Obviously he turned the volume way up beyond normal. I hope I am allowed to be curious about that.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #2506 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 05:25 PM
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,746
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2045 Post(s)
Liked: 3373
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
How high did you turn it up compared to your normal or somewhat above normal levels you would use for music?
And, if others are turning up the volume so high, I am surprise more tweeters haven't been blown yet as they are not capable of high power like mid and low drivers.
My speakers are Behringer PA speakers (B215XL) that use compression driver horn tweeters. Since they are designed for use with PA systems, like you'd find at a wedding or small concert, they are quite robust. Usually PA speakers have some sort of tweeter protection built into the crossover, often it's a little lightbulb that burns off extra current, I'm not sure if that's the case with mine. I'd be very cautious about playing Arnie's tones on a system with typical dome tweeters.

Mark Henninger

Last edited by imagic; 07-27-2014 at 05:37 PM.
imagic is online now  
post #2507 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 05:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 6,892
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2831 Post(s)
Liked: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
The glorious leader points out the memory leak and later uses binoculars to find audible differences.

I don't post (much), I read everythink, and when I get to pictures like this, I'm smilink.

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-27-2014 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Typo
NorthSky is offline  
post #2508 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 06:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RayDunzl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,513
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 518 Post(s)
Liked: 733
If ultrasonic tones are being generated by the speaker, and no IM is measureable in the electrical signal, there can still be IM in the air, for the ear to amuse itself with, according to this that I remember reading long ago.

http://www.holosonics.com/technology.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound



Or was this already worked out to the satisfaction of the combatants?

I'll be back later...


links::: 1.5RQ > digits > 1177a > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot
RayDunzl is offline  
post #2509 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 06:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 736 Post(s)
Liked: 415
I have the original sound files in a sound editor now and will slow down playback to better get a handle on the faint transient clicks during the keys jangling portion Some of which are clearly visible in the wave forms.

I will also make some other as yet undermined comparisons .
ofc displaying/measuring differences in a sound file and actually hearing them are quite different things.

Bumping the playback gain within the sound editor a few dBseems to have no detrimental effect at this point here.

No problem hearing anything (exc. maybe a transient click or two) at what I believe are safe levels with headphones
(on this playback chain) but adding a few dB gain in sound editor (*may resolve that)
ofc I will copy / save the unzipped WAV files as ongoing projects in there.

TBH I would be hesitant to play back these files on any speakers at elevated levels for fear of damaging whatever type tweeter is present and I will not risk any of my speakers in that way

ofc I'm running Crown XTI-2 2002 amps
in one playback chain here that clearly have potential to fry a tweeter now and then despite it's excellent clipping and speaker protection .

With Imagic using commercial Pro PA speakers designed for continuous high output that might be
a viable exception if nothing else at high output they would maybe be the loudest key chain jingle one would likely ever hear and may provide sufficient resolution horns can be very detailed as opposed to a lot of consumer "hifi speakrs "
that may offer colored brand 'house voicing/ sound '. ☺☺

I'm Not going to use AVR + speakers IMO they aren't designed for evaluating any thing and often struggle to do anything at elevated levels cleanly anyway .

I said before I believe this test is better suited for headphones reason (s) being IMO that testing with any speaker (with these or similar sounds ) would not prove or disprove that any significant value is added by hires playback in itselfto the recording playback chain if in fact any difference likely small if any were found
at all . Small difference (if any ) is of insignificant value for other than bragging rights

Again I believe that value added question should have been easily and clearly answered many years ago
eliminating the need for this discussion and testing altogether , this and many other discussion (s) clearly raise many as yet unanswered questions in that respect after all these years.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-27-2014 at 11:42 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #2510 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 06:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 736 Post(s)
Liked: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I don't post (much), I read everythink, and when I get to pictures like this, I'm smiling.
In any event the pictures are quite entertaining none the less ☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-27-2014 at 06:43 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #2511 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 06:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Liked: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
False claim.

For example there is an ABX comparator in the recent releases of "Mastered For iTunes". It has been there since no later than 2012

You seemed to have overlooked my use of the word "hardware" in front of "ABX switchers". THOSE are the ones I was stating are out of production and THOSE are the ones you mentioned in the thread I linked to that may have an audible "tell", due to their mechanical relay switches, which you said you could hear, in some instances, and ID. Software and App versions still abound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If hardware ABX switchers were commonly used and still in production, which they aren't, and I linked to a thread that was a "How to cheat the system and dupe others that you can hear things which you actually can't" tutorial, not written for and by fellow debunkers and scientists (that thread's intended audience), but instead for fellow con artists and swindlers, then arguably I guess "Yes", I'd say it would have been a promotion of fraud.

Last edited by m. zillch; 07-27-2014 at 06:54 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #2512 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 07:25 PM
isa
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
In this case, files were converted to 16/44 from 24/96. Per my previous post, we were asked if we can tell them apart. I did. And others did for a subset. So the hypothesis of whether there is an audible difference was proven.
That summary is stunningly at odds with the scientific method. Let's first just address first semester freshman engineering material (which I exaggerate slightly: l learned this in high school): no single test proves a hypothesis. At best one disproves a null hypothesis, and only with statistically significant results among other key criteria established over the 400 plus year development of the scientific method. Yet you continue to quibble, deny, fight, ignore, cherrypick and propose stawmans to refute the very foundations of the scientific method. Noted.
andyc56 and tubetwister like this.
isa is offline  
post #2513 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 07:58 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 15,052
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 363 Post(s)
Liked: 629

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #2514 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 09:35 PM
Senior Member
 
koturban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Here is you asking for DBTs:



In this thread we have you not been willing to take a DBT test and report on its results.
Red herring. "The test" we have been discussing is Arny's files.

Next thing you know, you'll be dredging up irrelevant 30 year old studies to further torment our readers.

Your last sentence is incomprehensible.
tubetwister likes this.

Last edited by koturban; 07-27-2014 at 09:41 PM.
koturban is offline  
post #2515 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,478
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by isa View Post
That summary is stunningly at odds with the scientific method.
So is this:



It doesn't mean we don't post it.

Quote:
Let's first just address first semester freshman engineering material (which I exaggerate slightly: l learned this in high school): no single test proves a hypothesis.
Good thing then that we did far more than one test. Once more:

1. There were two sets of tests. One created by Mark/Scott, and another by Arny. Each created with completely different methodology, tools and personnel.

2. Mark/Scott's test consisted of three clips converted down to 16/44. Arny used one clip converted to 32 and 44. So that is a total of 5 different tests.

3. To get the probability of chance to zero, I ran 20 trials of Arny's tests.

4. To get the probably of chance to zero, I ran 53 trials of Mark/Scott tests.

5. So the number of "tests" I conducted was 73, not one.

6. Multiple forum members here and on WBF have conducted their own tests on Arny's files and likewise. I let you count those but the number of trials is well above 100.

7. The testing was done using the proposed tool: Foobar2000 ABX. This is a plug-in that randomly assigns X and Y to A and B. All the reporting was automatically generated by Foobar2000. I have offered people to come and witness me taking the test but hopefully we are not calling each other's integrity into question in the name of "science."

In summary, this is not remotely as you characterize. It was not me guessing right once. Or twice. Or ten times. It was not just one clip but four. It was not just me but a number of others.

Quote:
At best one disproves a null hypothesis, and only with statistically significant results among other key criteria established over the 400 plus year development of the scientific method.
And statistical significance was reached and then some. In my case, probability of guessing was 0%. Not .5%, not 5%, but 0%. I can tell the files from each other 1000 times in a row if you like.

Quote:
Yet you continue to quibble, deny, fight, ignore, cherrypick and propose stawmans to refute the very foundations of the scientific method. Noted.
Noted what? Your post is information-free. It adds no data to the conversation. It simply aims to add doubt to the results. "Oh, scientific method was not used." You mean other than running double blind tests, using computer generated samples and reports?

What you are practicing is called FUD. IBM used it decades back to dissuade people from buying cheaper Amdahl computers. "Oh, it is not an IBM and it may have problems."

It is also the way too often practice of turning lack of data into data. "Oh, you have only run one test." Let's say I had. If you have no test data of your own, then you have no argument. Period. You can't imply that lack of additional data takes away the data that does exist.

If you are genuinely interested in science and adding data to the conversation, then run the tests. Don't just randomly guess. Remember that others have passed some of those tests. So try hard to identify the differences. Report that. Experience that. Then your posts will be constructive. As it is, they are just debating tactics and noise.
Charles R likes this.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is online now  
post #2516 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,478
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
MS made some dramatic changes to the Task Manager in Windows 8.1, which is the release of windows that I said I am using.
My bad. I forgot that you were using Win 8.1

Quote:


It has no apparent "Show Processes from All Users" flag.
There is not indeed. Windows 8 heavily revamps the task manager. Specifically it shows the "friendly" name of system processes as opposed to the image name. So instead of audiodg.exe you want to look for "Windows Audio Device Graph Isolation." As such, it would not show up at the beginning. Please take a look and you should see it.

Quote:
Here's a good procedure:

(1) Engage Brain.
(2) Commence Posting.

Please try it some time! ;-)
My procedure is this:

(1) Post as fast as you can. Never mind if you are not making sense.
(2) Wait for Arny to object which he kindly always does
(3) When that happens, blame anything wrong on Chu.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is online now  
post #2517 of 2920 Old 07-27-2014, 11:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 736 Post(s)
Liked: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
I have the original DVD in metal case + .iso rip good movie especially when the good Governor and Sharon Stone are fighting , she up put quite a respectable fight that unfortunartly ended in her characters untimley death

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-27-2014 at 11:53 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #2518 of 2920 Old 07-28-2014, 05:10 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
You seemed to have overlooked my use of the word "hardware" in front of "ABX switchers". THOSE are the ones I was stating are out of production and THOSE are the ones you mentioned in the thread I linked to that may have an audible "tell", due to their mechanical relay switches, which you said you could hear, in some instances, and ID. Software and App versions still abound.
My apologies. I caught the error in a review and deleted the post. It was indeed incorrect. My apologies.

As far as mechanical tells go, it varies.

We've built hardware ABX comparators with reed relays, and they are practically silent. But, they are low current devices and only useful for line level signals.

I've used the QSC ABX comparator, and I could read it from a goodly distance in a quit room based only on relay noise. Of course the music playing during the test masks a fair amount of noise.

Our ABX RM-2 comparator was a reed/standard relay hybrid, and it was IME a lot quieter than the QSC comparator. I've heard some owners say that they could read it in a quiet room.

The original ABX comparator used huge high current contactors, and while it made a lot of noise it seemed to make a different noise every time it changed state. Nobody I know of could ever read it based on mechanical noise.

The ABX comparators used a multi-stage switching technique described in some detail in the Clark paper to vastly reduce electrical noise during switch-overs. It could handle integrated amps at both the phono input and loudspeaker output ends.

If I were to develop a new hardware ABX comparator I would probably use a standard USB relay module with software control.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-CH-12V-USB...-/181390426947

arnyk is offline  
post #2519 of 2920 Old 07-28-2014, 05:45 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I have Altered above text of the quote in part. Please note two underlined added words at the very end of the sentence immediately below .

"Here is the link for my idea of killer 24/96 .wav files files for using ABX to hear potential audible differences due to differences in bandpass and resolution or not: "

Consider this ,Perhaps if these two words were added at the very end of the quote as I have done immediately above and underlined it could possibly further clarify ones interpretation of intent one way or another . I believe the original intent would remain unchanged .

I believe this *may demonstrate in part* the vagaries and various
interpretations one may or may not attribute to written words in some cases.

Maybe Arnyk would be so kind as to comment and answer this supposition
as it applies to the immediate discussion and was in part IMO raised earlier in this discussion .
I think that the phrase "hear potential audible differences" is sufficiently neutral. I'm not saying that they are audible or not, just that there is some potential for them to be audible.

However, I think I've included the phrase "or not" in some other postings of these files or files like them. Shouldn't be a big deal either way unless someone wants to split hairs.

Whoops! Have I forgotten where I am posting? ;-)

Latest versions of the files here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rjaw0fd9vg...tones%20f3.zip

I've added a copy of the 2496 keys jangling file high passed at 23 KHz and cleaned up a few unessential, cosmetic details.
arnyk is offline  
post #2520 of 2920 Old 07-28-2014, 06:08 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post

So please post the measurements you have performed on typical D/A headphone amplifiers where audible IM distortion is indeed a problem with ultrasonic content. It's your hypothesis, Mr. Krueger, but you have yet to show any supporting evidence.
Here they are, in a previous post I made before the above post. I just added the results of an ABX test performed with that bogus monitoring system that had a positive outcome.

Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test
arnyk is offline  
Closed Thread Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off