Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 87 - AVS Forum
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post #2581 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
By ignoring his results altogether you are hinting at us that you told him how to cheat on this test and he didn't really hear the difference due to "audible distortion based on non-linear distortion?"
Give me some credit! I don't need people to teach me how to cheat! ;-)

I actually figured this cheat out over a decade ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I have not said anything whatsoever about "superior quality" of hi-res version. As I keep saying, ABX testing is not about qualitative analysis. It is a forced choice, binary decision and data.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Even now, I don't know which file is which. As I explained yesterday, I simply grabbed the files, threw them into the playlist in Foobar and ran an ABX test on them. That is the fair way to run the test.
The files names seem to make which file is which self-evident. I did that to keep idiot me from getting them mixed up. ;-)

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3 4416.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3.wav

What is unclear about 4416? ;-)

The only mystery should be what F3 means. It means they are the results my third attempt to fix the files. The fixes were pretty minor except that I added the test file composed of only content > 23 Khz. By minor I mean that I made sure the clicks were more uniform, and ensured that the ultrasonic test tones were a level matched a little better.
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post #2582 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Not necessarily. I guess I need to introduce you to another class of thingies that show up in FFTs. I call them undesired signals. They are coherent as you say. But, since we can line them up with a stimulus, they come from the outside world, not the internals of the UUT.

They are all related to the power line signal (60 Hz) distorted in a specific way. But since the original 60Hz signal is not at all obvious in the FFT, it was probably coming in from somewere outside the mic.
You should get a job in their customer service department Arny. Because when I contacted them last year, they were not smart enough to come up with that excuse:

From: Rich Taylor (Dayton Audio) [mailto:xxxx@daytonaudio.com] [I have redacted the email alias]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 6:31 AM
To: Amir Majidimehr
Subject: RE: Distortion with UMM-6

Amir,

We are looking into this.

Best Regards,
Rich Taylor


I didn't just do this measurement now Arny. I did it to help diagnose problems others had found with the same mic and needed further evidence. Here is others with the same data:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Ah-ha, found the spikes in a full sweep I did on my subs only.

If there is something in the air, it must exist both in his house and mine! Except that he lives in South Dakota and me in Washington state. Doubtful we have the same air???

Here is another poster with the same measurement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Just because I was feeling a little left out of the spikes issue, I checked my measurements and what do you know...
 
And another by AJ although I don't think he has the same mic (?):

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is what the RTA is showing for my mic:
 
He lives in Austin Texas. Clearly not the same air as us. Theirs has a strong accent and ours does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post
Just got my minidsp umik1 and it is showing the same 1khz and harmonics spikes. Haven't had a chance to compare it to my CSL calibrated EMM6 yet. Will probably be sending it to CSL for a full calibration report before I do much testing.



-Mike
This guy is in Merryland. Clearly not the same air or even microphone. But distortions spikes are there.

Still want to use a measurement mic to analyze distortion spikes? Other than Chu, I hope no one else will attempt to do so.

Quote:
It may have enterded the mic acoustically, in which their presence does not indict the mic, their presence may indict the room that the mic was in when the measurement was made.
Or, the mic is detecting presence of aliens on earth. Let's not forget that.

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post #2583 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Give me some credit! I don't need people to teach me how to cheat! ;-)

I actually figured this cheat out over a decade ago.
So the results you just post were based on this cheat?

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post #2584 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The files names seem to make which file is which self-evident. I did that to keep idiot me from getting them mixed up. ;-)
That was a nice thing to do Arny. What I was saying is that once inside Foobar ABX tools, the file names are hidden. You can try to learn which file is which but I did not do that. At no time did I decide "A" was the high-res version and "B" not. Or vise versa. I throw the files into the playlist and let Foobar pick whichever it wanted for A and B. When listening, I did not try to guess, "oh this is the high-res file." I simply searched for differences. Didn't care if A sounded better than B or the other way around. Only that they sounded different.

Would be interesting to see if your cheat and that of m.zillch work given how I ran the test.

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post #2585 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
[emphasis mine]


Huh? "Some others", plural? If we are talking about Arny's files, only one other person besides him claims to hear a difference between 44.1 and the hi-res version, that being forum member imagic. So "others", plural, is incorrect. Sure, I aced the test too, however instead of claiming it's due to my "superior hearing", "high end and expensive gear", and/or a "certain distinct, pristine shine or clarity to the upper, lower treble that sounds like a veil was lifted", I'm instead stating up front it has nothing to do with the hi-res sound being superior or more detailed, it has to do with a subtle audible difference between the two files, undoubtedly due to some artifacts generated by the different way they were produced:


Tell me Chu, do you hear a superior quality to the hi-res version? If you don't, as I strongly suspect since you are human, then why do you believe others who claim to if I've proven that I can pass the same test by keying off a very subtle sound difference which is actually just an artifact?
No, I don't but I'll also acknowledge that the point of the tests performed here was to see if one could audibly differentiate between two files be they keys, music or whatever. It wasn't done through casual listening of one song then the other. That's why I've speculated that it may be something caused by the conversion process as IM, while it can't be ruled out in every case, doesn't seem that it's at play here. Maybe better converters, whatever that means, are more precise and might lead to greater transparency?

As it stands now, it's like the reason Ben Affleck was banned from certain games at a casino because he seems to have picked up on an ever so slight, but distinguishable to him, imperfection. One that neither the casino, the person dealing the cards, the manufacturer overlooked, and every other player overlooked.
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post #2586 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Why are you asking me? Won't I be a biased source? ;-)

If you read my posts you know that the SRC I use was the one in Cool Edit Pro 2.1 with pre/post filtering, and you know about the SRC reviews at Infinite Wave. Adobe Audition 2.0 is a close descendant of Cool Edit Pro 2.0 which is testsed at Infinnite Wave. I could tell you to go figure.

However, I can also tell you that I've run the tests that Infinite Wave used on all those SRCs on the Cool Edit Pro 2.1 SRC with very similar results. I also did some tests that are far more difficult than what Infinite Wave used, and found it has a weakness. The weakness is that if you upsample or downsample with really high ratios such as upsampling from 44.1 to several, maybe 10 megahertz, its digital filter's bandpass filtering seems to loose some of its precision. The circumvention is to do the upsampling in steps.
So the resampling that you did for us in this jingling track in blind listening tests is audible despite your paper analysis above. Yet you said to JA that upsampling to 192 Khz is not. Can you please help rationalize these two positions?

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post #2587 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
it's like the reason Ben Affleck was banned from certain games at a casino because he seems to have picked up on an ever so slight, but distinguishable to him, imperfection. One that neither the casino, the person dealing the cards, the manufacturer overlooked, and every other player overlooked.
Actually the person dealing the cards is in on it. I've read an entire book on the technique and will now elaborate.


Even if you use a computer to make all betting decisions, it is simply impossible, long term at least, to win at blackjack, with one exception: If the casino has a large ratio between the minimum allowed bet and the maximum bet, and you specifically bet heavily during the short windows of opportunity when the deck is unusually, and only momentarily, in favor to the players [let's say for point of argument 10% of the time], then you might win overall. This concept gave birth to the concept of "card counting" where a player makes note when the remaining cards are unusually rich in their percentage of 10s and aces [because they've counted up all the exposed cards since the start of that deck] and then strategically bets the maximum allowed amount only then when the odds are briefly in their favor.


Casinos figured out what was happening [1960s ?] and banned such players initially, but then worked out an even better safeguard. Instead of using one deck of cards they now use a "shoe" holding six or more decks worth of cards. [In theory one might even see two ace of spades on the table, or in one hand, at the same time.] Here the much larger deck almost never reaches a point of being advantageously rich in aces and tens, statistically, with one possible exception, and that's when the cards are really, really low, or almost entirely dealt out. How do they prevent this? They never allow the deck to get that low because the dealer randomly inserts a marker card, perhaps 2/3s of the way down, which indicates they are due to reshuffle. Problem solved.


If however a player, especially a charismatic movie star like Ben, winks at the dealer with a secret wink which means "Hook me up and act like your insertion of the marker card is random, but instead insert it as low as you feel safe doing, such that the pit boss watching over you doesn't think you are in collusion with me, a card counter, and I will give you a really big tip at the end of my stay here at your table".


That's the only way to win, short of straight up "cheating", like dealing from a secret stash of cards hidden under the deck.
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post #2588 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 01:26 PM
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Random thoughts:

How nice it would be if every single post by Members A1 and A2 didn't generate a whole new debate subthread from Member A3.


I still haven't tried the hi rez vs redbook part of the jangly keys test...maybe this weekend. The 32kHz vs 44.1kHz , was, as I noted, a piece of ABX cake, once I found a 'tell'. And my hearing above 16 kHz is pretty poor.


Meyer and Moran's tests used music. And real-time conversion from high rez to 44.1/16. Yet rather than producing a more enhanced and obvious degradation, they yielded results indicating no audible difference.


Is a puzzlement.
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post #2589 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 01:45 PM
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If it takes 2600 posts there are only two acceptable answers:
1) it doesn't audibly matter to those without "golden ears" and the best hardware/software.
2) it is a personal issue between 2 (or three) respondents to be the king of the monkey bars.

Either way... I sleep well.
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post #2590 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 01:48 PM
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I have an unproven hypothesis that being maybe by natures design our ears are keenly attuned to human voice ,rumbling volcanoes ,distant thunderstorms ,falling trees,lions roar,stampedes,charging Rhinosaurus,avalanches , someone flatuating (so we can get outta the cave ) etc since B4 the Flintstones so quite possibly the more genetically primitive among us... may not have quite the 'golden ears ' as some others

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #2591 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 01:57 PM
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'Deflection' implies a straight course is being deviated from. If you can discern a straight line of argument in this thread, you have 'golden eyes'.
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post #2592 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
If it takes 2600 posts there are only two acceptable answers:
1) it doesn't audibly matter to those without "golden ears" and the best hardware/software.
2) it is a personal issue between 2 (or three) respondents to be the king of the monkey bars.
Or in some cases the biggest turd in the pool !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2593 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:04 PM
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Deflection of what?
If the other 2500 posts between two (or three) other post makes me a "bad guy"... so be it.

I have nothing to gain or lose in this "debate". It's just my observation(s) and/or opinion.

EDIT:
I guess the post to which I was responding to was deleted...
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post #2594 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:11 PM
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I have an unproven hypothisis that being maybe by natures design our ears are keenly attuned to human voice ,rumbling volcanoes ,falling trees,lions roar,stampedes,charging Rhinosaurus,avalanches , someone flatuating (so we can get outta the cave ) etc since B4 the Flintstones so quite possibly the more genetically primitive among us... may not have quite the 'golden ears ' as some others

The reverse is more likely true. Some of us have evolved, leaving behind this no-longer-essential skill.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2595 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
I have an unproven hypothises that being maybe by natures design our ears are keenly attuned to human voice ,rumbling volcanoes ,falling trees,lions roar,stampedes,charging Rhinosaurus,avalanches , someone flatuating (so we can get outta the cave ) etc since B4 the Flintstones so quite possibly the more genetically primitive among us... may not have quite the 'golden ears ' as some others

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus
The reverse is more likely true. Some of us have evolved, leaving behind this no-longer-essential skill.
I used to reliably be able to completely tune out nagging bosses,girlfriends and spouses

Now if I could re learn that ability and apply it to certain forum posters (present company excluded ofc) that would be progress !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2596 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Actually the person dealing the cards is in on it. I've read an entire book on the technique and will now elaborate.


Even if you use a computer to make all betting decisions, it is simply impossible, long term at least, to win at blackjack, with one exception: If the casino has a large ratio between the minimum allowed bet and the maximum bet, and you specifically bet heavily during the short windows of opportunity when the deck is unusually, and only momentarily, in favor to the players [let's say for point of argument 10% of the time], then you might win overall. This concept gave birth to the concept of "card counting" where a player makes note when the remaining cards are unusually rich in their percentage of 10s and aces [because they've counted up all the exposed cards since the start of that deck] and then strategically bets the maximum allowed amount only then when the odds are briefly in their favor.


Casinos figured out what was happening [1960s ?] and banned such players initially, but then worked out an even better safeguard. Instead of using one deck of cards they now use a "shoe" holding six or more decks worth of cards. [In theory one might even see two ace of spades on the table, or in one hand, at the same time.] Here the much larger deck almost never reaches a point of being advantageously rich in aces and tens, statistically, with one possible exception, and that's when the cards are really, really low, or almost entirely dealt out. How do they prevent this? They never allow the deck to get that low because the dealer randomly inserts a marker card, perhaps 2/3s of the way down, which indicates they are due to reshuffle. Problem solved.


If however a player, especially a charismatic movie star like Ben, winks at the dealer with a secret wink which means "Hook me up and act like your insertion of the marker card is random, but instead insert it as low as you feel safe doing, such that the pit boss watching over you doesn't think you are in collusion with me, a card counter, and I will give you a really big tip at the end of my stay here at your table".


That's the only way to win, short of straight up "cheating", like dealing from a secret stash of cards hidden under the deck.
I was wrong about it being Affleck. The person was Phil Ivey and this is one take on the story.
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2014/0...acle-18054.htm

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post #2597 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I used to reliably be able to completely tune out nagging bosses,girlfriends and spouses

Now if I could re learn that ability and apply it to certain forum posters (present company excluded ofc) that would be progress !
You and me both. It sure would be nice if folks post with some kind of data, technical insight, etc. If your last five posts have been devoid that, I suggest creating your own thread to have a social discussion and posting there.

For now, Ethan asked to run his much higher fidelity generational loss on WBF Forum. I ran one set with my Etymotic headphones and got this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethan on WBF Forum
More to the point, that test was done using an old SoundBlaster sound card that cost $25. Few serious audiophiles are using or considering buying stuff like that. I'm much more interested in learning how many people can pick out the original versus one generation of the more typical "high end" converter I used in this follow-up test:Converter Loop-Back Tests
Ah, didn't realize there were a second set of files on that page. Thanks for upping the fidelity and providing the variety. I gave one set of files a try. Here is how I did:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/29 14:05:31

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Ethan's new generational loss files\focusrite_3a.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Ethan's new generational loss files\focusrite_3c.wav

14:05:31 : Test started.
14:05:50 : 00/01 100.0%
14:06:18 : 01/02 75.0%
14:06:24 : 02/03 50.0%
14:06:31 : 02/04 68.8% -<<< Difference found
14:06:42 : 03/05 50.0%
14:06:53 : 04/06 34.4%
14:07:02 : 05/07 22.7%
14:07:19 : 06/08 14.5%
14:07:35 : 07/09 9.0%
14:08:01 : 08/10 5.5%
14:08:12 : 09/11 3.3%
14:08:31 : 10/12 1.9%
14:08:54 : 11/13 1.1%
14:09:32 : 11/14 2.9% <--- Dog barked.
14:09:52 : 12/15 1.8%
14:10:03 : 13/16 1.1%
14:10:19 : 14/17 0.6%
14:10:53 : 15/18 0.4%
14:11:33 : 16/19 0.2%
14:12:47 : 17/20 0.1%
14:13:18 : 18/21 0.1%
14:13:39 : 19/22 0.0%
14:13:41 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 19/22 (0.0%)


I should note as I did to ethan in the WBF thread that I think there is a dead easy way to tell the original file from the rest. It was not material to my testing as I was not trying to identify the generational order but that is what Ethan is testing. And card playing folks may be able to figure out how to cheat.

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post #2598 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:49 PM
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That was a nice thing to do Arny. What I was saying is that once inside Foobar ABX tools, the file names are hidden. You can try to learn which file is which but I did not do that. At no time did I decide "A" was the high-res version and "B" not. Or vise versa. I throw the files into the playlist and let Foobar pick whichever it wanted for A and B. When listening, I did not try to guess, "oh this is the high-res file." I simply searched for differences. Didn't care if A sounded better than B or the other way around. Only that they sounded different.
We must be running different releases of Foobar.

This is what mine shows:



From this I deduce that A is the file with 4416 downsampling, and B is the file with no downsampling.

Since that particular monitoring system has high IM, it is that easy.

One difference between you and I may be that based on years of experience with reliable listening, I know what IM sounds like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Would be interesting to see if your cheat and that of m.zillch work given how I ran the test.
You appear to know my cheat because as you say:

"I simply searched for differences." is basically what I do to cheat.
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post #2599 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 02:59 PM
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I used to reliably be able to completely tune out nagging bosses,girlfriends and spouses

Now if I could re learn that ability and apply it to certain forum posters (present company excluded ofc) that would be progress !
Quote:
Originally Posted by arminm
You and me both. It sure would be nice if folks post with some kind of data, technical insight, etc. If your last five posts have been devoid that, I suggest creating your own thread to have a social discussion and posting there.
I would but I'm having much too much fun watching folks post maybe questionable data maybe not and other folks maybe exposing that maybe not and in some cases maybe debunking same maybe not and some times posting the same data over and over and over Just like the hires hypothesis nobody has proven anything yet one way or another other than that some folks may hear as yet unattributable differences know what I mean? ..............


PS Arminm : I'm sure many us will be looking forward to seeing some new JAES or AES hires papers . Please let us know if you hear of any thanks .

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post #2600 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 03:06 PM
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I don't see how it matters, since as it has correctly been pointed out FB2K ABX only shows differences, not preferences, however from my playing around with it today, after the topic was brought up, I determined that the file higher in the list is always "A", even if this isn't spelled out for you explicitly during testing in the smaller test window screen.

Here's what doesn't matter:
-the order you select them
-the order they were originally before you moved files around
-alphabetical order

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #2601 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
We must be running different releases of Foobar.
No, we are running the same thing Arny. Except that i don't run foobar in a large window like you are. In its default small window, it manages to always hide its file names with the ABX pop up dialog.

Quote:
This is what mine shows:



From this I deduce that A is the file with 4416 downsampling, and B is the file with no downsampling.
Once in the ABX dialog you can't tell which file is which. What you did is what I said I had NOT done. That is, try to associate a file with A or B. I drag the files into the playlist, invoke the ABX dialog above and start listening. At no time do I attempt to think, "OK, this is the high-res file so it should sound better than this converted one." As such, I am not using any knowledge of which file is what.

I wonder if you would do as well if the file names were not revealing. Have a loved one rename them to something you don't know and repeat to see if you can still tell them apart reliably.

Quote:
Since that particular monitoring system has high IM, it is that easy.
So you are confirming that you did not use any cheats given to you by m.zillch. Yes? I want to make sure the authenticity of your test is not questioned. That you did indeed hear "IM distortion."

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One difference between you and I may be that based on years of experience with reliable listening, I know what IM sounds like.
So why it took you so long to apply that knowledge to your own test Arny? For days on end you said you could not hear the differences due to hearing damage in the Army. Why the suddenly found skill?

How about the previous 14 years that you said no one had passed the tests? Surely audio systems were crappier in the past and if your theory is right, would have made it easier to hear the difference.

Isn't possible now that it is shown that audible differences do exist if you pay attention, that you too are able to hear the artifacts that heretofore, were inaudible to you? That is, what went on with Mark happened to you? Hate to think you are cheating instead .

Quote:
You appear to know my cheat because as you say:

"I simply searched for differences." is basically what I do to cheat.
That is not a cheat whatsoever.

Non-linear distortion is content specific so you have to find the right segment where it may be audible. If you have called this a "cheat" then no, you have not found a way to get around the system. You just discovered that using a method routinely used in listening tests in the industry to find differences. This is your first step in becoming a critical listener. Mark got there a week or more before you. As I said, we have changed the landscape of these discussions forever. One by one, folks are learning what it means to actually listen and evaluate tracks. And are now succeeding to hear differences, yourself included, that until now were deemed impossible.

The pandora's box that you opened Arny....
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post #2602 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I would but I'm having much too much fun watching folks post maybe questionable data maybe not and other folks maybe exposing that maybe not and in some cases maybe debunking same maybe not and some times posting the same data over and over and over Just like the hires hypothesis nobody has proven anything yet one way or another other than that some folks may hear as yet unattributable differences know what I mean? ..............
That is one post. You have four more to go. Let's see if you use the opportunity to have "fun" or contribute technically.

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post #2603 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 03:41 PM
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Just for the record, what I did to ace the test wasn't "cheating", at least not by my standards, and I would appreciate it if people would not refer to it by that word. I described it as my keying (or sensing off of) an accidental "tell" left in Arny's originally posted files.

When playing poker, for example, if you notice sweat on your opponent's brow every time they bluff, if you happen to pick up on that "tell" you have every right to act on it. You aren't "cheating"; you are taking advantage of a vulnerability they have.

My selections of A and B were done entirely by my hearing alone, of an extremely subtle difference that took me over an hour to pull off, but the important point is I had no outside assistance from dogs, analyzers, etc.. [Using such external tools as these would have been correctly deemed "cheating", since it is then no longer a test of human hearing at all.]

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post #2604 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 04:02 PM
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Both of Arny's orig unaltered key files waveforms look much the same until the training test tones and sound much the same ( to me ) at same same levels at playback but a noticeable difference visible in some waveform amplitude peaks and training test tones overall ? curious about that ?

View was zoomed out 2 clicks can provide normal view if needed

Note:they were dropped unaltered straight into Audacity and not imported as a project to ensure they were not altered.
'

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2605 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I don't see how it matters, since as it has correctly been pointed out FB2K ABX only shows differences, not preferences, however from my playing around with it today, after the topic was brought up, I determined that the file higher in the list is always "A", even if this isn't spelled out for you explicitly during testing in the smaller test window screen.

Here's what doesn't matter:
-the order you select them
-the order they were originally before you moved files around
-alphabetical order

Funny enough I was just asking abotu htis on HA, and did my own tests.

I agree that the order of selections doesn't matter. Nor does alphabetical order, *unless* your tracklist is arranged in alphabetical order.

Because the order that the tracks occur in whatever playlist you select them from, certainly does matter (for me).



IOW if the playlist looks like this

Track 1
Track 2
Track 3
Track 4


And I select Track 3, then Track 1 (or vice versa), and choose 'ABX two tracks', Track 1 always becomes 'A' and Track 3 always becomes 'B'.

If I manually rearrange the tracks in the playlist ('moved files around')

Track 3
Track 4
Track 1
Track 2


And choose track 1, then track 3 (or vice versa), now Track 3 always becomes 'A' and Track 1 becomes 'B'.


This tells me that the current order of tracks in the playlist is what matters.


And FWIW, the tracks assigned to A and B do not change during the course of the test. So if you know the relative position the two track in their playlist, you know what A and B are during the whole test.


In Arny's case above the first one (96-->44) in his list of two tracks will always be A, the second (96) will be B.
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post #2606 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Just for the record, what I did to ace the test wasn't "cheating", at least not by my standards, and I would appreciate it if people would not refer to it by that word. I described it as my keying (or sensing off of) an accidental "tell" left in Arny's originally posted files.

When playing poker, for example, if you notice sweat on your opponent's brow every time they bluff, if you happen to pick up on that "tell" you have every right to act on it. You aren't "cheating"; you are taking advantage of a vulnerability they have.

My selections of A and B were done entirely by my hearing alone, of an extremely subtle difference that took me over an hour to pull off, but the important point is I had no outside assistance from dogs, analyzers, etc.. [Using such external tools as these would have been correctly deemed "cheating", since it is then no longer a test of human hearing at all.]
It's not clear from what you keep writing whether this 'tell' is something extrinsic to the 'keys jangling' -- as , say, switching noise would be -- or whether it is part of the 'jangling keys' content itself (including distortion tracking the signal).

For example, when comparing 22kHz SR to 44.1, I could find a part or parts where the jangling keys sounded slightly 'crispier' in one version than the other. That, to me, is a 'tell' that is part of or correlated to the sound of the keys jangling.

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post #2607 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
So why it took you so long to apply that knowledge to your own test Arny? For days on end you said you could not hear the differences due to hearing damage in the Army. Why the suddenly found skill?
Since differences caused by IM distortion in the monitoring chain are irrelevant to the question at hand, I did not treat those obvious differences as being relevant.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
How about the previous 14 years that you said no one had passed the tests? Surely audio systems were crappier in the past and if your theory is right, would have made it easier to hear the difference.
I don't think that a lot has changed in the last 14 years in home audio in terms of SQ outside of things like HDMI that make things easier and automated room tuning facilities (Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, etc.) that make setup easier. There have been dramatic improvments in portable audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Isn't possible now that it is shown that audible differences do exist if you pay attention, that you too are able to hear the artifacts that heretofore, were inaudible to you? That is, what went on with Mark happened to you? Hate to think you are cheating instead .
I believe in calling a spade a spade. Detecting bandwidth differences by creating nonlinear distortion is a cheat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Non-linear distortion is content specific so you have to find the right segment where it may be audible. If you have called this a "cheat" then no, you have not found a way to get around the system. You just discovered that using a method routinely used in listening tests in the industry to find differences. This is your first step in becoming a critical listener. Mark got there a week or more before you. As I said, we have changed the landscape of these discussions forever. One by one, folks are learning what it means to actually listen and evaluate tracks. And are now succeeding to hear differences, yourself included, that until now were deemed impossible.
Thanks for finally admitting that you are detecting differences between the files by intentionally causing nonlinear distortion in your monitoring chain, Amir. That explains why you have been so critical of my files that expose this.
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post #2608 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Thanks for finally admitting that you are detecting differences between the files by intentionally causing nonlinear distortion in your monitoring chain, Amir. That explains why you have been so critical of my files that expose this.
Let me deal with the last sentence first Arny. Your files have been a gift. A true gift. To have Arny Krueger create them and challenge us to telling the difference, and us delivering, could not produce a more defensible situation. You can't say the person who created them was incompetent. You can't doubt the person who created them as not knowing what audio is. You can't doubt the person that created them to have cheated. You can't doubt the person who created them as not being here to question. You can't doubt the person who created them not having an education. You can't even doubt there are aliens on earth. OK, I had to sneak that one in.

So no, everyday I wake up now I am thankful for how you forever have changed the landscape of these discussions. There is no more, "show me a DBT ABX that says there is a difference." We can point to a number of them now. With your name being behind every test, the credibility could not be any higher. Makes putting up with Chu's antics almost, almost worth it!

I know your modesty won't allow you to take credit for it but that is how the history will show it. That it was the power of ABX that finally proved these illusive differences can be found. That and some golden ears.

As to me "intentionally causing nonlinear distortion," you could very well be right. I drag the files into foobar and hit "play A" then "play B." Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. I then select a segment and play X and Y. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. I then vote and click "Next Trial." Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. After a while the percentage right goes to 100% as far as probability. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. Lastly, I quit out of Foobar ABX and it generates its report. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right.

As you know, my audio knowledge is even lower than my IQ. Despite that, I am thinking that what I did is what everyone does to play their favorite content. I didn't try to identify the tracks like you did. Didn't try to game the system by analyzing order and such like Krab is doing. I didn't do what m.zillch did because he won't tell us! I simply used being dumb as an asset and compared files playing on my computer.

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post #2609 of 2920 Old 07-29-2014, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Let me deal with the last sentence first Arny. Your files have been a gift. A true gift. To have Arny Krueger create them and challenge us to telling the difference, and us delivering, could not produce a more defensible situation. You can't say the person who created them was incompetent. You can't doubt the person who created them as not knowing what audio is. You can't doubt the person that created them to have cheated. You can't doubt the person who created them as not being here to question. You can't doubt the person who created them not having an education. You can't even doubt there are aliens on earth. OK, I had to sneak that one in.

So no, everyday I wake up now I am thankful for how you forever have changed the landscape of these discussions. There is no more, "show me a DBT ABX that says there is a difference." We can point to a number of them now. With your name being behind every test, the credibility could not be any higher. Makes putting up with Chu's antics almost, almost worth it!

I know your modesty won't allow you to take credit for it but that is how the history will show it. That it was the power of ABX that finally proved these illusive differences can be found. That and some golden ears.

As to me "intentionally causing nonlinear distortion," you could very well be right. I drag the files into foobar and hit "play A" then "play B." Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. I then select a segment and play X and Y. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. I then vote and click "Next Trial." Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. After a while the percentage right goes to 100% as far as probability. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. Lastly, I quit out of Foobar ABX and it generates its report. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right.

As you know, my audio knowledge is even lower than my IQ. Despite that, I am thinking that what I did is what everyone does to play their favorite content. I didn't try to identify the tracks like you did. Didn't try to game the system by analyzing order and such like Krab is doing. I didn't do what m.zillch did because he won't tell us! I simply used being dumb as an asset and compared files playing on my computer.
Given your repeated instances of "spiking the football" with your results, any claims that you have been performing these tests in good faith are highly suspect.
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post #2610 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 12:19 AM
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Don't suppose anyone anyone's seen any third or maybe sixth order and beyond non linear distortion in the keys files here ............... or would that be a stretch ?

Image below could be a trained listener elated at finding a difference between Red book 16/44.1 and hires audio file samples....maybe not ? .......... just speculation at this point of course. I didn't ask him what he was listening to. ☺☺

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