Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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post #2611 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Given your repeated instances of "spiking the football" with your results, any claims that you have been performing these tests in good faith are highly suspect.
That's only if his case is isolated one.
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post #2612 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
That's only if his case is isolated one.
No one else who has passed the ABX test is making the claims that he is, so yes, it is an isolated case.
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post #2613 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 04:04 AM
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Well, this fellow claims he can pass any DBT and woe to any person or country that doubts his abilities.

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post #2614 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

As to me "intentionally causing nonlinear distortion," you could very well be right. I drag the files into foobar and hit "play A" then "play B." Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. I then select a segment and play X and Y. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. I then vote and click "Next Trial." Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. After a while the percentage right goes to 100% as far as probability. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right. Lastly, I quit out of Foobar ABX and it generates its report. Does that cause non-linear distortion? If so, then you are right.
Depending on other influences - such as the exact nature of the monitoring system and the listening levels chosen, any of the first few steps you describe can cause nonlinear distortion.
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post #2615 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Well, this fellow claims he can pass any DBT and woe to any person or country that doubts his abilities.
(see img. Post 2616)
Never would have figured Putin for an AKG man who would have thought ?
I would have thought he would prefer the sometimes 'veiled' sound of certain Sennheiser's.
Kinda looks like my buddies Gulfstream V in a way,same color seats and all ..you think they let him fly it ?

Dropped the On The Street Where You Live on the Street or whatever they call it unaltered WAV music files directly into Audacity also no readily apparent visible waveform differences there !

I wonder if these are two same ,same ringers or actually different resolution . I can't reliably hear any difference ?
Think maybe someone is trying to hose us ? ☺☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #2616 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
No one else who has passed the ABX test is making the claims that he is, so yes, it is an isolated case.
So, it seems we are now conveniently forgetting stuffs to make arguments. The worse is that your forgetting is quite selective, too.
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post #2617 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
So, it seems we are now conveniently forgetting stuffs to make arguments. The worse is that your forgetting is quite selective, too.
You may want to review the thread before you post. Run along now.
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post #2618 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Never would have figured Putin for an AKG man who would have thought ?
I would have thought he would prefer the sometimes 'veiled' sound of certain Sennheiser's.
Rhymes with KGB.

Almost time Amir to wake up.
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post #2619 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
Never would have figured Putin for an AKG man who would have thought ?
I would have thought he would prefer the sometimes 'veiled' sound of certain Sennheiser's.

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Rhymes with KGB.
I can see the AKG /KGB or is it KGB/AKG thing now that you mention it makes perfect sense!


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Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Almost time Amir to wake up.
You know on this Arny/Amirm thing they have going on here for a long time ,

I just noticed something last night .......... Arny has something like 1065 likes to Arminm's
340 likes and they both joined in like in 2002 .........go figure?




Back to the non linear distortion thing I think I get this for the most part ,


Quote:
"For many devices, a linear model is accurate only for small signal levels. For example, at 2 volts input, a typical audio amplifier might put out 20 V, meaning the linear gain is 10 V/V. For 3 V input, it might then output 30 V. However, the model implies that at 50 V input it would produce 500 V, which is not possible with most amplifiers."-wikipedia-
not to sure about this stuff so much though ,

Quote:
"For larger values of u, the higher order coefficients such as a_2 and a_3 come into play." -wikipedia -
Math was never my strong point in college ,or high school either..... I liked the girls and the keggers lot's at college though ! Used to take the babe's on motorcycle rides they loved it and usually were a lot of fun to take on a long ride
if you know what I mean, had a car too so it was all good !☺☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2620 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Just for the record, what I did to ace the test wasn't "cheating", at least not by my standards, and I would appreciate it if people would not refer to it by that word. I described it as my keying (or sensing off of) an accidental "tell" left in Arny's originally posted files.
That is what you are supposed to do. That is, listen for any difference. Let's recall the test. We have taken a 24-bit/96 Khz file and reduced it down to 16/44.1. That process is said to be 100% transparent. The conversion was machine made. No human was involved. And it is the same process used by countless mastering engineers to give us CD resolution from their high-res masters. If that process leaves a "tell" such that you can separate the files, then we have accomplished the job of invalidating the assertion of transparency.

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When playing poker, for example, if you notice sweat on your opponent's brow every time they bluff, if you happen to pick up on that "tell" you have every right to act on it. You aren't "cheating"; you are taking advantage of a vulnerability they have.
You are not cheating. But you are not taking advantage of any "vulnerability" either. You have not beat the system in any way. You are using your ears to find a difference and you did. It almost seems like you don't want anyone to take your results seriously. Just like Arny calling his results "bogus" I don't understand why we are so afraid to show that we have started to learn to listen and use our ears to find small differences. Just like reading the player's cards from him sweating, you should be proud of your accomplishments. And not keep positioning as some kind of beating the system when it is not. At least not based what you have told us.

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My selections of A and B were done entirely by my hearing alone, of an extremely subtle difference that took me over an hour to pull off, but the important point is I had no outside assistance from dogs, analyzers, etc.. [Using such external tools as these would have been correctly deemed "cheating", since it is then no longer a test of human hearing at all.]
There we go. It seems that finding positive differences is such a rare thing that we don't even know how to describe our findings. You were supposed to spend an hour getting trained. This is what international standard, ITU BS1116 recommends.

What you are going through is the first baby steps of becoming trained. Over time, finding the differences becomes easier and easier. And you find "tells" that others can't even hear. Those tells is what an engineer would need to find and fix issues. It is not something to sweep under the rug or be ashamed of. Embrace your newfound skills. And make them better. Go and take some compressed music that you thought was transparent to the source. Listen to them with the same intent as here. Likely you will hear differences you did not before.

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post #2621 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
You know on this Arny/Amirm thing they have going on here for a long time ,

I just noticed something last night .......... Arny has something like 1065 likes to Arminm's
340 likes and they both joined in like in 2002 .........go figure?
Third post not contributing anything technical to the topic.

When I was in middle school (?) we were sitting in the class and our teacher was nowhere in sight. As kids do, everyone went nuts, talking, paying, screaming, throwing things at each other, etc. All of a sudden this stranger shows up and sits in the instructor's chair. He says our normal teacher is sick or something and he is the substitute. That took the decibel level from 100 to maybe 99 . He sat there calmly for a while. Then he spoke up with a much more stern voice, pointed to one of the loud kids in the front and said: "Every classroom needs a clown. Don't try to be the one!" The room became absolutely quiet. Even the usual clowns became model students. Who wanted to be known as the clown?

So the choice is yours. I hope you choose to contribute technically and not create personal friction and have social discussions. Let others be the clowns. They are the ones giving the likes to Arny which the forum software enabled less than a year ago.

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post #2622 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
... Let others be the clowns. They are the ones giving the likes to Arny which the forum software enabled less than a year ago.
And what does that make those that give you "likes"?

And what about the "likes" that you give to others?
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post #2623 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:01 AM
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Amirm, (did I spell it right this time ? ) I gave your thoughtful post some careful consideration and much of it has merit
but Consider this ,sometimes it gets interesting and all here but sometimes the subject material is a little repetitious and boring now and then as these things tend to be now and again
but I'm learning some some stuff here ( not sure just what or if it even useful to me ) maybe the same for some others . .

OTOH you have all these really cool guys here like me,
Arny, Chu Gai,koturban , NorthSky, isa, zillch,mcnarus,krabapple,imagic,RayDunzl,Ratman,br iansxx,spkr,
CharlesJ,Frank Derks,antoniobiz1,Garidy,RobertR,
your buddy and fellow hires advocate stereoeditor,and some others all posting here (sometimes with a little levity ) and keeping it going while you are away and not letting things get cold and the thread die on you what's not to like ?
All work and no play you know what they say ? .

EDIT Folks have been looking for the audio playback holy grail since Edisons wax cylinders and haven't found it but the marketing folks without fail try to sell them on it all the time when something just a little different comes out and they always make tremendous claims for it that rarely pan out so you will have to allow for the scepticks amongst us . Otherwise this thread might die . This thread seems to have a hostile tone at times rather unnecessarily when some one disagrees with you , as the defacto OP you might want to think about that .otherwise people will probably tire of it that's not incomprehensible IMO.

EDIT TBH I've learned a lot of credible and independently verifiable stuff stuff from Arny in the different threads At AVS , here also much more than this thread could ever hope to legitimately accomplish for me in any way shape or form .

EDIT TBH if nothing else this thread is confirming my opinions of hires in general in that IMO it is similar to what I experienced with SACD and a not inexpensive Sony ES spinner that otherwise still works well after all this time but is no longer in use here. Decent PC ODD is probably just as good reading a CDR (disappointment)is the word the only difference being no plastic disc .

Surely one can understand the occasional levity could be a draw for some also Although we all might not agree on everything

I think there is a bit of comaradity present now and then ....or maybe you ain't feeling it for some reason or another ?

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2624 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Depending on other influences - such as the exact nature of the monitoring system and the listening levels chosen, any of the first few steps you describe can cause nonlinear distortion.
Arny, you had me run a listening test and I passed it. How can I still be "causing non-linear distortion?" You are a fan of listening tests. You created the test. We ran it with negative outcome. Despite your theory not holding up, you keep insisting that I must have suffered from non-linear distortion?

What was the purpose of performing your listening test if you distance yourself from its results immediately after we report it? Again, this was your test that was supposed to reveal that we had "IM distortion." It was a shot in the dark and it failed.

Ultimately the point is simple: we had insisted up to this point that downsampling to 16/44 is transparent. That no one can tell the 24/96 from 16/44 in "DBT ABX" tests. Well, we managed to do so, yourself included. It matters not why there is a difference at this point. What matters is that there is an audible difference so we no longer can accuse people who hear these differences as 100% suffering from bias.

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post #2625 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
You know on this Arny/Amirm thing they have going on here for a long time ,

I just noticed something last night .......... Arny has something like 1065 likes to Arminm's
340 likes and they both joined in like in 2002 .........go figure?
Or, to put it another way, a "like rate" of 7.7% to 1.9% in favor of Arny. But you're even more likeable. You're at 14%.
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post #2626 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:30 AM
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I'm feeling the love!
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post #2627 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:36 AM
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Amir, how can one use their new found skills at picking out these differences unless one has the original to compare to?
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post #2628 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Amir, how can one use their new found skills at picking out these differences unless one has the original to compare to?
In many cases you do. Take one of your CDs and compress it to 320 kbps. Pick something with high-frequency transients. Compare the two and keep developing your skill. Learning to tell previously transparent files apart goes a long ways toward becoming a critical listener.

Of course you can also practice with Scott/Mark's files and Arny's.

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post #2629 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So this is the fourth post lacking any technical knowledge or data contributions to the thread.

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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
OTOH you have all these really cool guys here like me,
Arny, Chu Gai,koturban , NorthSky, isa, zillch,mcnarus,krabapple,imagic,RayDunzl,Ratman,br iansxx,spkr,
CharlesJ,Frank Derks,antoniobiz1,Garidy,RobertR,
your buddy and fellow hires advocate stereoeditor,and some others all posting here (sometimes with a little levity ) and keeping it going while you are away and not letting things get cold and the thread die on you what's not to like ?
All work and no play you know what they say ? .
This is not levity:

Quote:
EDIT TBH I've learned a lot of credible and independently verifiable stuff stuff from Arny in the different threads At AVS , here also much more than this thread could ever hope to legitimately accomplish for me in any way shape or form .
Nor is this:
Quote:
EDIT TBH if nothing else this thread is confirming my opinions of hires in general in that IMO it is similar to what I experienced with SACD and a not inexpensive Sony ES spinner that otherwise still works well after all this time but is no longer in use here. Decent PC ODD is probably just as good reading a CDR (disappointment)is the word the only difference being no plastic disc .

Quote:
Surely one can understand the occasional levity could be a draw for some also Although we all might not agree on everything
The draw for this thread is the technical discussion and results of our listening tests. Your opinion is noted and since you have made up your mind, I trust you won't keep repeating it.

Quote:
I think there is a bit of comaradity present now and then ....or maybe you ain't feeling it for some reason or another ?
I don't feel anything other than partisan bickering in your posts. I am going to ask you again to contribute technically instead of these ankle biting posts.

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post #2630 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
You may want to review the thread before you post. Run along now.
I believe it is you who need to reread the thread before spewing stuffs like this. I recommend you to respect other people such as those posted results in this thread and one in WBF.
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post #2631 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
In many cases you do. Take one of your CDs and compress it to 320 kbps. Pick something with high-frequency transients. Compare the two and keep developing your skill. Learning to tell previously transparent files apart goes a long ways toward becoming a critical listener.

Of course you can also practice with Scott/Mark's files and Arny's.
Well, yes, you can do that but if all you're doing is buying music and not ripping to 320, just storing it on your HD for later playback you can't. There are times a person can get too hung up on minor imperfections and lose sight of a bigger picture, like this fellow.


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post #2632 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
not to sure about this stuff so much though ,
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
"For many devices, a linear model is accurate only for small signal levels. For example, at 2 volts input, a typical audio amplifier might put out 20 V, meaning the linear gain is 10 V/V. For 3 V input, it might then output 30 V. However, the model implies that at 50 V input it would produce 500 V, which is not possible with most amplifiers."-wikipedia-
In the paragraph above the Wikipedia author is describing clipping. Clipping simply means that an amplifier can be a good amplifier only up to its maximum output. Everything in the real world has limits.

For example an amplifier that is reasonably linear up to 50 watts into 8 ohms will deliver signals as large as 20 volts RMS. Some place above 20 volts, the amp gives up increasing its output (because it lacks the internal resources) and simply won't grow its output any further.

You put in 2 volts and for example you get 20 volts out. You put in 3 volts and you don't get 30 volts out, you get somewhat less.

Good amplifiers have very low distortion up to their maximum output. When they reach their maximum output its like their output hits a brick wall, they can increase their output no further.

Some will brag that their amplifier has soft clipping, and this sounds intuitively nice until you realize what that involves.

Going back to our 50 watt amplifier above, to make it clip softly, you have to give up linearity above a certain point like say 15 volts. Your soft clipping amplifier is clean up to 15 volts, it is pretty dirty from 15 volts up to 20 volts and then linearity goes all cattywumpus above that.

What soft clipping did is turn a clean 50 watt amp into an amp that is only clean up to 28 watts. Such a deal! ;-)
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post #2633 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
I believe it is you who need to reread the thread before spewing stuffs like this. I recommend you to respect other people such as those posted results in this thread and one in WBF.
If you have a problem with it, refute it.
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post #2634 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I don't feel anything other than partisan bickering in your posts. I am going to ask you again to contribute technically instead of these ankle biting posts.
And in your opinion, you and your "friend" do not contribute to partisan bickering and bite the ankles of one particular poster???

C'mon! Play nice.
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post #2635 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
So this is the fourth post lacking any technical knowledge or data contributions to the thread.
With all your knowledge,expertise and effort how come you can't convince me and many others (some perhaps more knowledgeable than both of us together) of the basic hypotheses of the is thread ?
or that hires is in fact superior on it's own merits there should be no controversy about the superiority of hires after all these years. common sense would dictate that .

If Sony,Harmon int'l,DCM holding Subsidiary, Samsung,et,al cannot prove or disprove it just what is it that makes you think you can ?

All that has been proven here is that some people claim to hear a very slight difference but they don't even know what? Just how useful is that in a practical sense ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
OTOH you have all these really cool guys here like me,
Arny, Chu Gai,koturban , NorthSky, isa, zillch,mcnarus,krabapple,imagic,RayDunzl,Ratman,br iansxx,spkr,
CharlesJ,Frank Derks,antoniobiz1,Garidy,RobertR,
your buddy and fellow hires advocate stereoeditor,and some others all posting here (sometimes with a little levity ) and keeping it going while you are away and not letting things get cold and the thread die on you what's not to like ?
All work and no play you know what they say ? .
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
This is not levity:
Never said that paragraph was levity wasn't meant as such ......... you don't get it !


Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
EDIT TBH I've learned a lot of credible and independently verifiable stuff stuff from Arny in the different threads At AVS , here also much more than this thread could ever hope to legitimately accomplish for me in any way shape or form .

See I just learned some TECNICAL things in answer to a TECNICAL question I posted that are very useful to me (in a real and practical TECHNICLE sense from arny again in post 2635 told ya !
bet some others learned from that post also That's what I 'm talking about!
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Nor is this:

It wasn't supposed to be levity only the truth it should be readily apparent to anyone reading it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister

EDIT TBH if nothing else this thread is confirming my opinions of hires in general in that IMO it is similar to what I experienced with SACD and a not inexpensive Sony ES spinner that otherwise still works well after all this time but is no longer in use here. Decent PC ODD is probably just as good reading a CDR (disappointment)is the word the only difference being no plastic disc .

Quote:
Surely one can understand the occasional levity could be a draw for some also Although we all might not agree on everything

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
The draw for this thread is the technical discussion and results of our listening tests. Your opinion is noted and since you have made up your mind, I trust you won't keep repeating it.
Maybe tech discussion for some maybe not so much for others people often like to see arrogant condescending people put in their place repeatedly as so often happens on public forums and when they post that way all bets are off it's human nature,.



After all it's just like watching the house down the block burn down they come back for more .
and this one seems to be on fire frequently that's the tone you've set here all along and in other threads when someone may not agree with you ☺.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
I think there is a bit of comaradity present now and then ....or maybe you ain't feeling it for some reason or another ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
I don't feel anything other than partisan bickering in your posts. I am going to ask you again to contribute technically instead of these ankle biting posts.

Ever heard the saying you reap what you sow maybe you consider that.
You get what you give sometimes that's just the way it is if you don't like it grow some thicker skin or try to be less confrontational to others.

I can feel the comaradity maybe you ain't feeling it because you aren't part of it.

We all have to man up and take our lumps like everyone else here when they are deserved
I know it's a hard transition from the workplace . I had to go through the same thing when I retired and realize my word was no longer scripture .

Maybe take a look at your like percentages just saying

You know people wait for you to post sometimes and it ain't always for technical reasons like you think either,if that does not give you pause to think I don't know what will.

I will post what I please within the forum rules comments on opinions duly noted no guarantees however ofc it is your right to do so likewise.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-30-2014 at 11:26 AM.
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post #2636 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 11:00 AM
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You may be right
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
It's too late to fight
It's too late to change me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right

(Billy Joel)

Not a technical contribution, but I thought it was funny.
Sleep well.
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post #2637 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 11:17 AM
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This is a sickening, gross manipulation of the facts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You are not cheating. But you are not taking advantage of any "vulnerability" either. You have not beat the system in any way. You are using your ears to find a difference and you did. It almost seems like you don't want anyone to take your results seriously. Just like Arny calling his results "bogus" I don't understand why we are so afraid to show that we have started to learn to listen and use our ears to [blah-blah-blah]...
Previously he wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
By ignoring his results altogether you are hinting at us that you told him how to cheat on this test...
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Would be interesting to see if your cheat and that of m.zillch work given how I ran the test.
[emphasis mine]

Once again, I didn't cheat, but more importantly amirm has no idea what I did to pass the test, he can only guess, and his guess is 100% wrong. His post attempting to sway either me (?!!) or the other readers here, as to "what I did", is a complete fantasy, misdirection, con job, and fabrication/manipulation of the facts and should be summarily dismissed by all. [Note, I believe he may have edited portions of it by the time you read this, so my exact quotes may be slightly off, but were correct at the time of posting.]

It's sad how in his warped mind he now seems to attribute my successful passing of the test of Arny's original files (the only ones of his he's been able to pass as well, I might add) as some sort of confirmation/validation to his cause, lumping me with [to paraphrase] "the distinguished listeners, with fine taste, who can prove they hear a qualitative difference between the sound of the keys janging, when they are presented in hi-res" [rather than the truth: one person who found a minor, audible error in Arny's construction of the two files, which I believe Arny has now fixed in his latest version and that nobody here can now pass]. This sickens me to my very core that he would USE me in this way, not just here but including in other threads, as well? (perhaps even other forums, for all I know), but there's not much I can do about it, beyond this very post of protest.

He obviously seems to have a lot more time on his hands to post in this forum (than most forum members do) in which to spew his industry's self-serving propaganda (a field I know quite well having worked in it myself for over 20 years before I eventually left in disgust), so moving forward I will be ignoring his posts both in the interest of not wasting my time and to prevent any further nausea and frustration.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #2638 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 11:29 AM
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I sense a mutiny capt Queeg run for your life !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #2639 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch

He obviously seems to have a lot more time on his hands than me to post in this forum and spew his industry's self-serving propaganda (a field I know quite well having worked in it myself for over 20 years before I eventually left in disgust) so moving forward I will be ignoring his posts both in the interest of expediency and to prevent nausea and frustration.
Completely understandable on the industry from your point of view . I spent my career in the auto industry ( bus. unit management at the OEM level /some retail ) and to say much of it at the retail level was routinely misleading ,borderline fraudulent and at times outright fraudulent for many years would be kind.


One couldn't/cant usually get away with that at the OEM level though different highly regulated business altogether government /regulatory compliance is always in the forefront in that business wasn't always that way used to be the wild west .

luckily the co's I worked for were pretty honest and very particular of their reputations the one I spent the majority of my lengthy career adhered to that to the extreme and usually makes the most admired brand lists but they were fortune 50/100 multinational firms ( wouldn't trade the experiences for the world ,well a lot of things anyway ) you don't survive in that business at that scale for too long these days otherwise. I've seen some colossal stubborn mistakes and misconduct resulting in numerous fatalities harmful injuries by other firms though.


It took decades of federal and state regulation to level out the playing field for the consumer if you will including and especially in the retail sales service and repair business . IMO the current state of much of the consumer audio industry et,al *may be * much like the auto industry was decades ago which still needs work in some areas.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-30-2014 at 12:14 PM.
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post #2640 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 12:24 PM
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Alright,

"There is no light without darkness.
There is no right without wrong.
All points point to this."
- Me (R §)

______

Without Amir, this thread wouldn't even exist.
Without Amir, we wouldn't learn so much from Arnold (Arny).
Without Amir, there wouldn't even be comments from all of us. ...All type of comments and replies...higher and lesser.

* Amir and Arny are on the same path; High-Resolution Audio and what that means for all of us. ...Scientifically, technically, and perhaps psychologically too.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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