Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 89 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-30-2014, 12:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,232
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 640 Post(s)
Liked: 387
I sense a mutiny capt Queeg run for your life !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-30-2014, 12:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,232
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 640 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch

He obviously seems to have a lot more time on his hands than me to post in this forum and spew his industry's self-serving propaganda (a field I know quite well having worked in it myself for over 20 years before I eventually left in disgust) so moving forward I will be ignoring his posts both in the interest of expediency and to prevent nausea and frustration.
Completely understandable on the industry from your point of view . I spent my career in the auto industry ( bus. unit management at the OEM level /some retail ) and to say much of it at the retail level was routinely misleading ,borderline fraudulent and at times outright fraudulent for many years would be kind.


One couldn't/cant usually get away with that at the OEM level though different highly regulated business altogether government /regulatory compliance is always in the forefront in that business wasn't always that way used to be the wild west .

luckily the co's I worked for were pretty honest and very particular of their reputations the one I spent the majority of my lengthy career adhered to that to the extreme and usually makes the most admired brand lists but they were fortune 50/100 multinational firms ( wouldn't trade the experiences for the world ,well a lot of things anyway ) you don't survive in that business at that scale for too long these days otherwise. I've seen some colossal stubborn mistakes and misconduct resulting in numerous fatalities harmful injuries by other firms though.


It took decades of federal and state regulation to level out the playing field for the consumer if you will including and especially in the retail sales service and repair business . IMO the current state of much of the consumer audio industry et,al *may be * much like the auto industry was decades ago which still needs work in some areas.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-30-2014 at 01:52 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 01:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked: 614
Alright,

"There is no light without darkness.
There is no right without wrong.
All points point to this."
- Me (R §)

______

Without Amir, this thread wouldn't even exist.
Without Amir, we wouldn't learn so much from Arnold (Arny).
Without Amir, there wouldn't even be comments from all of us. ...All type of comments and replies...higher and lesser.

* Amir and Arny are on the same path; High-Resolution Audio and what that means for all of us. ...Scientifically, technically, and perhaps psychologically too.
NorthSky is online now  
Old 07-30-2014, 01:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,232
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 640 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk
Good amplifiers have very low distortion up to their maximum output. When they reach their maximum output its like their output hits a brick wall, they can increase their output no further.

Some will brag that their amplifier has soft clipping, and this sounds intuitively nice until you realize what that involves.

Going back to our 50 watt amplifier above, to make it clip softly, you have to give up linearity above a certain point like say 15 volts. Your soft clipping amplifier is clean up to 15 volts, it is pretty dirty from 15 volts up to 20 volts and then linearity goes all cattywumpus above that.

What soft clipping did is turn a clean 50 watt amp into an amp that is only clean up to 28 watts. Such a deal! ;-)
Cool post thanks a lot very usefull information for me teach ! Not sure if my Crown XTi 2 has soft clipping but I'll check it out in any event it's got more power than I will ever use any way and is big overkill (now that I learned that from you also earlier ) for job here but it works good and I got a swinging deal on it ☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,190
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 327
Without Amir, we wouldn't learn so much from Arnold (Arny).

Without Amir, we might learn much more useful things from Arny.
tubetwister likes this.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 01:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 289
I was an NAD dealer for a long time and when they [1980s/90s] advertised an amp or receiver as "50 watts" that meant with the optional soft clipping switch set to the "OFF" position it truly could put out 50 clean watts per channel, following the six FTC stipulations, NOT that it was really more like 28 watts, cleanly, as has been suggested.

I can't speak to other brands, however.
tubetwister likes this.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


Last edited by m. zillch; 07-30-2014 at 02:14 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 02:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,190
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 327
I was an NAD dealer for a long time and when they [1980s/90s] advertised an amp or receiver as "50 watts/ch" that meant with the optional soft clipping switch set to the "OFF" position it truly could put out 50 clean watts per channel, following the six FTC stipulations, NOT that it was really more like 28 watts, cleanly, as has been suggested.

Yes, but the problem came when you turned soft clipping ON. NAD claimed (correctly) that you would get somewhat cleaner power somewhat above 50 watts. But they downplayed the fact that the output would be somewhat less clean somewhat below 50 watts.

Now, that's hardly the biggest deal in the world, and NAD was producing a legitimate 50-watt amp. Till it broke.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 02:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 596
I could be wrong but...

If this thread had taken the approach of disclosing what the audible differences were with the time stamps, it might've moved to a discussion of the imperfections or limitations in the sample rate converters. Maybe there'd be a brief segue into the claims of hi-res and whether the listening tests supported it. We could have looked at whether different approaches led to harder or impossible to detect or even if the differences wer now found in different places.

Instead, it rapidly became a thread with put downs, clever insults, and name calling by the principals, Amir and Arny, which advanced nothing.

We might have found out whether some versions of the software were better. Or maybe it was a matter of some computer settings. But no. Arny, who seems to have provided the bulk of the samples is told by Atkinson that he's got junk. Maybe not that exact word but that's the impression. Atkinson, who presumably does not have junk, and may well have access to stuff that Arny and others don't, could well have taken one of the files and converted it. Or, since he has nice microphones, could have recorded jangling keys or whatever himself in hi-res and down sampled.

We could have learned something and maybe eliminated a thousand or more posts. But I did learn that there appears to be only one person in Brooklyn that uses the word pedantic.
Ratman, fotto, Tack and 1 others like this.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
Old 07-30-2014, 02:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 289
"Downplayed"? Not as I see it. NAD never claimed "50 watts" yet this was only obtainable with the circuit engaged--it really could do 50 clean watts. They made it a point to make the circuit an optional, switchable choice, with an explanation to the owner as to why, and as far as I'm concerned they were perfectly upfront about what it did both in advertising and in owners manuals:


"SOFT CLIPPING™: Enables NAD’s proprietary Soft Clipping circuitry


on all channels. At [ON] position, Soft Clipping gently limits the output


of the C 326BEE to minimize audible distortion should the amplifier be


over-driven. Soft Clipping may simply be left ON at all times to reduce


the likelihood of audible distortion from excessive volume settings.


However, for critical listening and to preserve optimum dynamics, you


may wish to defeat it by setting this switch to “OFF” position.


The SOFT CLIPPING indicator on the front panel will illuminate when the


C 326BEE is in Soft Clipping mode."


Source: http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/manu...BEE_manual.pdf





In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


Last edited by m. zillch; 07-30-2014 at 02:58 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,190
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 327
Yeah, that's the marketing fluff. What did the spec sheet say?

I'll bet it gave a power/distortion spec with soft clipping off, but not with soft clipping on. So it's honest, but slightly incomplete. (As spec sheets usually are.)

Look, I'm not trying to beat up on NAD here. I'm just agreeing with Arny that soft clipping comes at a price, and noting that NAD's marketing was somewhat coy about that price. Hardly the worse offense in the audio world.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RayDunzl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,406
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 481 Post(s)
Liked: 679
Too many two-bit posts for a 16 vs 24 bit exploration.

I'll be back later...


links::: 1.5RQ > digits > 1177a > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot
RayDunzl is online now  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:10 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 14,662
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Instead, it rapidly became a thread with put downs, clever insults, and name calling by the principals, Amir and Arny, which advanced nothing.
Ironic since this thread was created as a "courtesy" for Scott to deflect.
Ratman is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Marketing "fluff"? Everything they have said there is factually correct. If you disagree you need to be specific about which point is in error.


"I'll bet it gave a power/distortion spec with soft clipping off, but not with soft clipping on. So it's honest, but slightly incomplete. (As spec sheets usually are.)"


The whole point of soft clipping is that it still distorts but that it distorts in a more graceful manner which is less offensive to the ear, at least for a short while. It is impossible to describe this with numbers so it's no wonder spec sheets will be vague on this point. There is a perceptual component at play and the only way to test that is through listeners. Perhaps:


"Our tests show that our 50 watt amp when overdriven sounds just as bad as anyone else's 50 watt amp, however with the optional soft clipping feature engaged most casual listeners report no problems at all even when the amp is distorting on musical peaks of 20mS or less which occur for less than 10% of the time, at 1kHz, at a level which matches that of a 75 watt amp into the same 8 ohm load that isn't distorting at all."


You can't easily condense that concept into a single spec. and a different team of listeners or different music material may yield different results. It's a perceptual thing not a numbers thing.

"Look, I'm not trying to beat up on NAD here. I'm just agreeing with Arny that soft clipping comes at a price, and noting that NAD's marketing was somewhat coy about that price. Hardly the worse offense in the audio world."

Find me one of these ads you object to and we'll discuss it further.

Last edited by m. zillch; 07-30-2014 at 03:44 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:41 PM
Member
 
antoniobiz1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 70
@amirm
@stereoeditor

I have a question for you guys.

I already said that I think that amir's test results are significant in terms of ABX testing. However, I am still pondering their importance, and I become curious about what kind of importance you attribute to them.

Amir, you deal in high end installations. John Atkinson is Stereophile's editor. What will you tell your clients/readers? Will you tell them that hires audio is demonstrably different/better than standard res, but that, in order to appreciate such difference, they must train they ears, then find a significant segment of a song, than play it back and forth? Or will you tell them the usual stuff (sound stage, air, clarity and so on)?
RobertR and tubetwister like this.
antoniobiz1 is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
krabapple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: in a state bordered by Kentucky and Maine
Posts: 5,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 229
Hey , has anyone heard HDMI jitter yet?
tubetwister likes this.
krabapple is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked: 614
Me, personally, I learned much more from the mature and technical exchanges between Amir and Arny. ...That's what a good debate is about.
I see two guys who are much more advanced than all the rest (most of us).

I wish I can contribute technically by listening to their hi-res audio files (Scott, Arny, Amir, Ethan), and develop, observe, improve, share my results. I am simply too lazy.
NorthSky is online now  
Old 07-30-2014, 03:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,190
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 327
Marketing "fluff"? Everything they have said there is factually correct.

Yes. The tell is what they don't say.

The whole point of soft clipping is that it still distorts but that it distorts in a more graceful manner which is less offensive to the ear, at least for a short while. It is impossible to describe this with numbers so it's no wonder spec sheets will be vague on this point.

Poppycock. You flip the switch on and plot a FR vs. distortion curve, just like you do with the switch off. If a single point on that curve is good enough for the spec sheet when the switch is off, then a single point on that curve is good enough for the spec sheet when the switch is on.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 04:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,232
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 640 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Hey , has anyone heard HDMI jitter yet?
No haven't seen it either ,but both Samsung and Sony assured me I would never see or hear that on my TV's and there was no need for expensive HDMI cables and I could just go ahead and buy inexpensive Monoprice or Amazon or whatever basic cables and as long as they were HDMI 1.4-2.0 high speed certified they would be guaranteed to be jitter free just like the TV's ! (ofc we bever discussed mpeg artifacts or mosquito noise or CATV/SAT HDLite re transmission either.

I want some of that sound stage, air, clarity and so on + maybe some shimmering highs, articulate bass and fluid micro dynamics for my headphones and speakers where can I buy some?

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-30-2014 at 04:48 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 04:50 PM
isa
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Me, personally, I learned much more from the mature and technical exchanges between Amir and Arny. ...That's what a good debate is about. .
I very disappointingly must disagree, after several attempts to contribute to this effort. Overall, I think Arny is earnest and keeps the proper perspective, while Amir is a true audio predator, among the nastiest to emerge in years. Amir plays a game of appearing to be all about science, but that couldn't be further from the truth. No later than July 13, Amir created a thread in his WTF forum entitled "Conclusive "Proof" that higher resolution audio sounds different". From that date on if not sooner, any true commitment to thoughtful discussion and the scientific method was over with Amir, even if he didn't have the guts to admit his position here. For those of us now wise to his tricks, he likely put the term "proof" in quotes to appeal to his sycophants while reserving the right to deny in a superficial manner he meant that in jest to those aligned with the scientific method. His blizzard of posts across two websites now allows him to cherrypick his own text for quotes to support whatever misleading message he decides to emphasize next. Some have been tricked into playing his game, but I will not.

The scientific method is pretty clear on focusing on eliminating bias, investigating sources of error and seeking explanations within the bounds of known science before concluding that results are the result of new science, the latter pithily captured by "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". But no later than July 13, Amir was done with all of that. Forget that this was an informal, "fun" test. Forget that no credible person could claim proper control of variables or statistical significance for any results. Amir was beyond all of that no later than July 13. If anyone believes otherwise, Amir got you. I give him props that he is garrulous, relentless, clever and an effective bully, so being deceived or silenced by him is understandable. I'll note at this time that I regard this as my first post that does not meet Amir's arbitrary requirement for suitable contribution, so I have at least 4 more coming before he can really try to silence me.

The original intent of this test by Scott and Mark was to conduct an informal, fun, thoughtful exercise to explore 96k/24 versus 44.1k/16 for music recorded at very high quality and with verifiable content above 22k. Had that remained the mission, several weeks ago we likely would have conducted a parallel audio test of the files using SoX per Andyc56. Not to humiliate anyone. Not to insult anyone. But to see if the resampling process could account for unexplained differences in gains and number of samples that may or may not be audible. Arny even tried to introduce a complimentary test with keys to investigate a credible source of unexpected difference, but Amir's relentless attacks on Arny's intent and files was received loud and clear by many.

I'm still open to the possibility that there is an audible difference between Mark's 96k/24 files and a 44.1k/16 version of them. But I will never, ever accept that with the current path as moderated by Amir. Might Amir eventually cough up the timestamps of the key parts of the files he detected a difference? Maybe. But enough people have asked, and he's ignored, that I will no longer hold my breath waiting for what he should have offered up in the interests of learning weeks ago. Might Amir eventually use tools like Audio Diffmaker to seek a reason for his results at whatever mysterious timestamps he hears differences that does not invoke new science? Maybe, but I no longer care to trust his objectivity. Can I detect a difference in the files? No, mainly because I don't have access to a system that can play 96k without at least one intermediate resampling step in my playback system. But should that eliminate my interest, participation and contribution to this effort? I think not.

If this appeal to the higher ground isn't enough to try to restart this discussion on more reasonable terms, I hope, Amir, you get it that truly talented people are just waiting for you to attempt a published paper on this informal test. Your bluster will meet true competence and commitment at that point, in a very public way. You can consider that a promise .
Frank Derks, CharlesJ and koturban like this.

Last edited by isa; 07-30-2014 at 04:57 PM.
isa is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 05:00 PM
Senior Member
 
stereoeditor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
@amirm
@stereoeditor

Amir, you deal in high end installations. John Atkinson is Stereophile's editor. What will you tell your clients/readers? Will you tell them that hires audio is demonstrably different/better than standard res, but that, in order to appreciate such difference, they must train they ears, then find a significant segment of a song, than play it back and forth?
Not at all. Human perception is not a linear process. As I said in my AES Richard Heyser Memorial lecture - see http://www.stereophile.com/content/2...ring-sound-qua - I discussed the standard model of how human beings don't perceive reality directly but instead construct internal models based on their experience and expectations. Those models are updated when new stimuli are recognized, However, until that recognition takes place, new properties of the stimulus are ignored. They are simply not perceived.

In my lecture I mentioned the well-known example of Edison's 1915 live vs recorded demonstration between the live voice of soprano Anna Case and his Diamond Disc Phonograph, where, given the audience's unfamiliarity with the flaws of the phonograph, they could not perceive any difference between Ms. Cases' voice and the reproduction of it. But once the flaws become familiar, what was once non-existent first becomes subtly noticeable, then significant. Witness the postings in this thread where people who thought there was no difference learned to recognize it. Perception involves learning - the ear is not a microphone.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Last edited by stereoeditor; 07-30-2014 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Typos
stereoeditor is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 05:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,232
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 640 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Posting Edited by original poster see posts 2748 and 2749 for comment

isa ,
Daily driver PC playback chain with 192kHz amplified sound card and Sennsheiser head phones capable of resolving 27kHz has no trouble passing the IM test and the pro gear in the studio can do that to a much higher degree and I should be able to see it in a DAW also .


As far as Thomas Edison is concerned he was just as big of a thief as Steve jobs and promoted DC (direct current ) as the better solution to to use for ordinary household current for his monetary gain eg,Edison electric AKA Conn Edison it was not until a few years later and many house fires and electrocutions that Westinghouse's much safer AC (alternating current ) as we know it today was deemed to be a safer better solution.and DC current for the home was removed .

I also do not believe someone who has been an audio enthusiast and has owned decent systems for well over 30 yrs and has a working digital recording studio or any consumer should have to 'train their ears 'to hear what should be a very obvious significant value added benefit from hires music vs Rebook CD 16/44.1 that perhaps may or may not exist ,that to me is not reasonable in my opinion. Maybe train to hear very small faint as yet unidentified anomalies as some have alleged here that they can do possibly hardly proof of anything at all beyond that as some allege .



Don't worry Arimn can't cut you off here at AVS only a moderator can do that he is a forum member just like us nothing more nothing less they can not ban you from a particular thread but they can lock a thread and silence the whole ofc I would certainly heed any moderators warnings however.



I routinely work with 24/48 mostly ,occasional 24/96 in studio projects both only for manipulative /editing overhead or for 24/48 uploading to iTunes or Amazon etc. not better sound quality s I have what I believe is good reason for my opinions none of this is new for me in practice .

Good post BTW . I don't put up with anyone trying to bully me in my personal life much less an internet forum ain't happening some people haven't figured it out yet too bad for them ! I also believe arny is credible and without ulterior motives just check out his likes !

regards .
Frank Derks likes this.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 08-01-2014 at 05:10 AM.
tubetwister is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 05:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
the well-known example of Edison's 1915 live vs recorded demonstration between the live voice of soprano Anna Case and his Diamond Disc Phonograph, where, given the audience's unfamiliarity with the flaws of the photograph, they could not perceive any difference between Ms. Cases' voice and the reproduction of it.

EVERY single person in attendance could perceive a difference. They were just being polite, and/or speaking in generalities ["Yes, it sounds the same, Mr Edison, just like you said it would!"], so as to not offend Mr Edison, et al, or disparage his ground breaking new toy he was so proudly showing off to them. [It was also a sighted comparison, not blind, not level matched, and I suspect the "test" had other flaws as well.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


Last edited by m. zillch; 07-30-2014 at 05:51 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Witness the postings in this thread where people who thought there was no difference learned to recognize it.

With backing ABX results? I must have missed those posts. Please provide links, thanks.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

m. zillch is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Back to the non linear distortion thing I think I get this for the most part ,

"For larger values of u, the higher order coefficients such as a_2 and a_3 come into play." -wikipedia -

not to sure about this stuff so much though ,
I'm going to try to keep this discussion math-less. ;-)

So far we've been talking about nonlinear distortion of the most obvious and clear cut kind, which is to say: clipping. In clipping the input signal tries to drive the output to places it was never designed to go and it completely balks.

the Wikipedia example of clipping was:

"For many devices, a linear model is accurate only for small signal levels. For example, at 2 volts input, a typical audio amplifier might put out 20 V, meaning the linear gain is 10 V/V. For 3 V input, it might then output 30 V. However, the model implies that at 50 V input it would produce 500 V, which is not possible with most amplifiers."

The other form of nonlinear distortion is not nearly as obvious nor as clear cut.

My paraphrased change to the above describing the other more gradual form of nonlinear distortion than clipping would be:

For all real world devices, a linear model is accurate only for small signal levels. For example, at 2 volts input, a typical audio amplifier might put out 20 V, meaning that the linear gain is 10 V/V. For 3 V input, the amplifier might output 29 V, meaning that the gain has dropped from 10 V/V for the first 2 volts of input to 9 V/V for the last volt of input.

Basically, the figurative little engine in the amplifier that accurately pulled the output from 0 to 2 volts lost a little steam, and when presented with a command to put out 10 more volts, it only managed to put out 9 volts. The dynamic range of this kind of device also eventually runs into a brick wall (clipping), but first there are these smaller errors.

Here is what happened graphically:



The blue line represents an ideal linear amplifier, while the pink line represents this particular form of nonlinearity.

This graph shows why this is called third order harmonic distortion:




The upper wave is at the fundamental frequency. Note that in the given time interval there is just one positive peak. This represents the pure signal.

The lower wave is at 3X the fundamental frequency. Note that in the given time interval there are three positive peaks. This wave represents the distortion.

If you add the two waves together, note what happens at the time marked with the red line. The first negative peak of the third harmonic cancels the positive peak of the fundamental (makes the peak value of the positive sum of the two waves less positive, which is what happened in the other plot).

Also note what happens at the time marked with the blue line.
The last positive peak of the third harmonic cancels the negative peak of the fundamental (makes the peak value of the negative sum of the two waves less negative, which also is what happened in the other plot).

So we can say that the addition of the third harmonic distortion accomplished the same graphically as we saw happen in the first plot of the output of the amp plotted against the input to the amp.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	grid paper nonlinear.png
Views:	91
Size:	2.9 KB
ID:	188922   Click image for larger version

Name:	third order harmonic distortion.png
Views:	87
Size:	29.1 KB
ID:	188978  
arnyk is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:17 PM
Senior Member
 
stereoeditor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
With backing ABX results?
Yes

Quote:
I must have missed those posts. Please provide links, thanks.
Look through the thread and you will find examples. One was from iMagic, IIRC.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
stereoeditor is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked: 614
I am reading, I am listening, I am taking it all in with very reasoned attention. ...isa & tubetwister, and all the other posters.

* Arny, I did not know much @ all about you before. And everything I've read from you so far is from a true pro gentleman not shy to be a real man, and an accomplished technical contributor on everything audio, science, people, truth, human psychology ...related.
You have my highest regards mister.

I don't judge people, I let everyone be themselves, and I just float among everyone.
In my mind & heart I know where my comfort zone is.
In my music & movies I know when my emotions and soul are @ peace.

<<>> Can I ask an off topic question...Ethan Winer, is he a member here @ AVS Forum?
Because Ethan can contribute greatly here technically in this thread, and everywhere else.
NorthSky is online now  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:21 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Don't suppose anyone anyone's seen any third or maybe sixth order and beyond non linear distortion in the keys files here ............... or would that be a stretch ?
If people overdrive their amplifiers then the usual result is symmetrical clipping which is the same as odd-order distortion. Odd order distortion is composed of third, fifth, seventh, nineth and so on harmonics.

This is what a cleanly clipped wave looks like:



This is what its spectral contents look like:



You can see the fundamental at 1 KHz and all of the odd harmonics a 3 KHz, 5 KHz, 7 KHz, etc.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	odd harmonic spectral content.png
Views:	90
Size:	23.4 KB
ID:	188994   Click image for larger version

Name:	odd harmonic wave.png
Views:	80
Size:	28.4 KB
ID:	189002  
arnyk is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post

<<>> Can I ask an off topic question...Ethan Winer, is he a member here @ AVS Forum?
Because Ethan can contribute greatly here technically in this thread, and everywhere else.

Yes, Ethan has an account here, and posts here. His postings are somewhat throttled by the fact that he has several day jobs.
arnyk is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,936
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
... I also believe arny is credible and without ulterior motives just check out his likes !

regards .
Don't look @ the "likes" of someone, look @ that someone.

P.S. Thx Arny regarding Ethan.
NorthSky is online now  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,190
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 327
Amir plays a game of appearing to be all about science, but that couldn't be further from the truth. No later than July 13, Amir created a thread in his WTF forum entitled "Conclusive "Proof" that higher resolution audio sounds different". From that date on if not sooner, any true commitment to thoughtful discussion and the scientific method was over with Amir, even if he didn't have the guts to admit his position here. For those of us now wise to his tricks, he likely put the term "proof" in quotes to appeal to his sycophants while reserving the right to deny in a superficial manner he meant that in jest to those aligned with the scientific method. His blizzard of posts across two websites now allows him to cherrypick his own text for quotes to support whatever misleading message he decides to emphasize next.

Gee, why am I not surprised. He gives audio salesmen a bad name, and that really is saying something.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off