Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 90 - AVS Forum
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post #2671 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
this is almost tooooo easy

Amir = fish

AVS = barrel
good fishing we caught two today...... one big one also ........ lets throw them back ! maybe they should move on and start their own forums maybe they already have forums none that I'm interested in though !
MAYBE I should troll them though see how they like it on their home turf to bad they don't move out of town or the galaxy ha ha

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2672 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
Back to the non linear distortion thing I think I get this for the most part ,

"For larger values of u, the higher order coefficients such as a_2 and a_3 come into play." -wikipedia -

not to sure about this stuff so much though ,
Quote:
Originally Posted by arynk
The other form of nonlinear distortion is not nearly as obvious nor as clear cut.

My paraphrased change to the above describing the other more gradual form of nonlinear distortion than clipping would be:

For all real world devices, a linear model is accurate only for small signal levels. For example, at 2 volts input, a typical audio amplifier might put out 20 V, meaning that the linear gain is 10 V/V. For 3 V input, the amplifier might output 29 V, meaning that the gain has dropped from 10 V/V for the first 2 volts of input to 9 V/V for the last volt of input.
Quotes edited for brevity see post 2664 ,2667 for more info

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
Don't suppose anyone anyone's seen any third or maybe sixth order and beyond non linear
Quote:
Originally Posted by arynk
distortion in the keys files here ............... or would that be a stretch ?
If people overdrive their amplifiers then the usual result is symmetrical clipping which is the same as odd-order distortion. Odd order distortion is composed of third, fifth, seventh, nineth and so on harmonics.
Thanks for the two postings and answering all my questions and then some . very informative gives me a better grasp of these things now
non linear gain reminds me of diminishing returns on an investment in a way you put in two like amounts but may not get like returns also better explains operating overhead in an amp and gives me a grasp on some variables
for many reasons so I can relate to the non linear gain and also understand what is going on under the hood much better with clipping now

I'll be saving this stuff for reference thanks again !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2673 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
@amirm
@stereoeditor

I have a question for you guys.

I already said that I think that amir's test results are significant in terms of ABX testing. However, I am still pondering their importance, and I become curious about what kind of importance you attribute to them.
Thanks for your vote of confidence and constructive question/post .

Quote:
Amir, you deal in high end installations. John Atkinson is Stereophile's editor. What will you tell your clients/readers?
Madrona's business is in whole house/business electronics. We don't cater to audiophiles/audiophile products although some of the products we carry fall in that domain. We probably install/sell 1000 Crown pro amps powering in-wall speakers to one Mark Levinson amplifier. The latter comes as someone calling us specifically to buy one and not as a result of any sales effort by us. So nothing here matters one way or the other with respect to my company's clients, nor do I imagine having any conversation with any of them now or in the future about these topics.

Quote:
Will you tell them that hires audio is demonstrably different/better than standard res, but that, in order to appreciate such difference, they must train they ears, then find a significant segment of a song, than play it back and forth? Or will you tell them the usual stuff (sound stage, air, clarity and so on)?
My position on this topic was stated on the first page. That it doesn't matter if there is or there is no difference in these downsamplings. That point becomes academic if we get the original masters. I like to hear what the talent heard and approved as the initial master. I don't need anyone to go and downsample the files for me. I can do that myself although with dirt cheap cost of storage, I would personally keep such files in high resolution.

If asked if the difference is night and day, my answer is that it is not to my ears. These are subtle differences to me anyway. There is that euphonic factor however that I can't quantify. When I have a piece of exemplary tuna sashimi, it transforms me to a happier place far more than its quantitative molecular differences would indicate. I could also find a hundred people who think they just taste the same. When I hear a note decay and decay into nothing instead of terminating toward the end, it puts a smile on my face. It is the tiniest difference to be sure. But if you know how to listen for it and appreciate it, it will tend to have special value.

Hope this answered your question .

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post #2674 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Well, yes, you can do that but if all you're doing is buying music and not ripping to 320, just storing it on your HD for later playback you can't.
That is a quandary that you have created yourself Chu. So the fact that it doesn't have a good answer, is a self-made issue.

Being the mischievous person that you are, you no doubt are avid watcher of the reality show Naked and Afraid? If not, and for those not into the types of things you are, here is a quick intro:


I was watching the latest episode on DVR. This couple were taken to this wet and cold mountain where no person has any business being and needed drinking water. They were next to a river but because it was 50 degrees and raining all the time, they could not start a fire to boil it and get rid of the harmful bacteria and pathogens in there. After suffering for a while, they then decide to go to the tall/massive waterfall that was feeding that river. The naked male explained why: "the farther down you are from source of water, the more chance that some animal has defecated in there so by going to the top of the fall, the chances of getting sick is far lower." So they went and lived ever after. Except that they didn't, not being able to feed themselves for 21 days in near freezing weather!

Anyway, same thing here. As I keep saying, if you get the original master, then you don't need to make any comparisons. You are getting water at the top of the waterfall. The CD is farther down and chances increase that quality has been lowered. By the time you get to MP3, you are assured that some animal has defecated in there. I mean, quality reduced .

So don't ask me how you can compare the river water to that of waterfall. Get the waterfall water and be done with it.

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post #2675 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:59 PM
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Never saw the show. I'm very disappointed in you.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2676 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:05 PM
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In case you have not heard We had a mutiny here while you out Mr Queeg you and your first officer JA have been summarily relived of your duties by popular vote and logical common sense and after acting captains mast at dawn you all may be set to walk the plank or left on a remote island with some minimal provisions (think naked and afraid there may be aboriginal cannibals or head hunters on the island ) the good ship is on autopilot for now and no longer requires your or your first officers assistance maybe we can get arny to assume command after the captains mast and disposition if not there are plenty of capable blokes aboard ! stop.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2677 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Never saw the show. I'm very disappointed in you.
So what you saying? That I should tear up this picture of us together?


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post #2678 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Besides him, the only other two people to pass Arny's ABX test are me an amirm.
No, this member did too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
BTW here is the ABX log for me running an ABX test on just the keys jangling portion of the file:

--------------------------------
*Note - levels and passage selection fudged for best false positives


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/28 07:53:00

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3 4416.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3.wav

07:53:00 : Test started.
07:54:38 : Trial reset.
07:56:40 : 01/01 50.0%
07:56:55 : 02/02 25.0%
07:57:15 : 03/03 12.5%
07:57:21 : 04/04 6.3%
07:57:27 : 05/05 3.1%
07:57:35 : 06/06 1.6%
07:57:42 : 06/07 6.3%
07:57:55 : 07/08 3.5%
07:58:10 : 08/09 2.0%
07:58:27 : 09/10 1.1%
07:58:35 : 10/11 0.6%
07:58:52 : 11/12 0.3%
07:59:09 : 12/13 0.2%
07:59:15 : 13/14 0.1%
07:59:22 : 14/15 0.0%
07:59:52 : 15/16 0.0%
07:59:59 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)
--------------------------------

Obviously, I'm not going to BS anybody, this was a bogus test. I selected the level and the portion of the track that I actually listened to to maximize the audible difference based on nonlinear distortion in the crappy monitoring system in this PC producing more audible IM with the 2496 test file than with the 4416 file.
He has a theory of why he heard what he heard, but he did manage to differentiate the two files. I asked him and you if you shared your method of finding the difference and neither one of you answered. So I trust Arny heard it without knowing how you did it.

Quote:
I keyed off a subtle flaw I believe Arny has now fixed, and amirm didn't describe his beliefs as "thought there was no difference [but subsequently] learned to recognize it".
I have been clear that my ability to hear such small differences comes from training some 15 years ago. Even with that training, I did have to listen and become familiar with these clips to tell them apart. I thought you said the same: that it took you an hour of listening until you found your "tell." Prior to that you were oblivious to it, right? And after that you could hear it all the time.

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post #2679 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:43 PM
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Watching the FX show Tyrant ............. nobody likes him they are all making a fool of him ...... family too imagine that !
I'm in the bedroom with my newer Sony LED and one of the PC's on the LAN great picture for a LED .




............waiting for sunrise...............favorite time of day

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2680 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 10:51 PM
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Oh that's a cute picture. ....Which one is the albino?

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post #2681 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 11:16 PM
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Favorite movie line > Hunt For Red October> Andrei Bonovia: to Captain Tupolev You arrogant ass! You've killed us!"
[click to play]
other sound bytes same movie link
click to play
other sound bytes same movie link
click to play
other sound bytes same movie link
click to play
other sound bytes same movie link
click to play

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2682 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 01:12 AM
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New Apple Beats (or is it Beats Apple now ) auto hires listening research bot


Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #2683 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
If you have a problem with it, refute it.
I have no 'problem' with it. I merely stated the fact, and it is you making an laughable false claim.

There is no need to do anything since anyone who reads this thread can figure it out eventually.
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post #2684 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 03:28 AM
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me i'd rather be chillin wit a hot babe at outdoor concert listening to da real thing and havin a tall cold one and some bud screw dees bits and zero's bro!

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #2685 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
In my lecture I mentioned the well-known example of Edison's 1915 live vs recorded demonstration between the live voice of soprano Anna Case and his Diamond Disc Phonograph, where, given the audience's unfamiliarity with the flaws of the phonograph, they could not perceive any difference between Ms. Cases' voice and the reproduction of it. But once the flaws become familiar, what was once non-existent first becomes subtly noticeable, then significant. Witness the postings in this thread where people who thought there was no difference learned to recognize it. Perception involves learning - the ear is not a microphone.
Enough relevant facts from that demonstration seem to have survived in the historical record, especially in the papers of Anna Case, that we know what people said at the time with pretty good accuracy.

No intelligent reader will be the slightest bit surprised if someone should humbly suggest that Atkinson's interpretation of that event is not the only one, not the best one, or perhaps not even an accurate one. Personal agendas, anyone?

There are just a few other accounts, and Google should be your friend.

Perhaps the most surprising factoid I've uncovered related to this seminal event is this one:

http://operaprojects.org/tonetest.htm

"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

As the saying goes: "Nuff said". ;-)
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post #2686 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
BTW, were you able to get ABX working on your Mac platform [which Arny provided possible links for about a week ago after you asked for them] so that we might see your double blind test results? I'm sure lots of people here besides just me would be most curious to see your results!
I strongly advise not holding one's breath... ;-)
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post #2687 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:34 AM
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"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

I can see how Ms. Case might lessen her voices' dynamic range to fit the recording medium and add some intentional vibrato to mimic flutter, but her ability to replicate wax cylinder surface noise is just uncanny:


No wonder people found the two sounds "indistinguishable".
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post #2688 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:48 AM
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“People will hear what you tell them to hear.” -Thomas Alva Edison


“Those who hear this test will realize fully for the first time how literally true it is that Mr. Edison has made possible the re-creation of the artist’s voice. No more exacting test could be made to demonstrate that the New Edison actually does re-create the voice of the artist than to play it side by side with the artist who made the records. This is the final proof. Close your eyes. See if you can distinguish the voice of the New Edison from that of the artist. Did you ever believe it possible to re-create a voice? Note that the voice of the artist and the voice of the Edison are indistinguishable.”

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post #2689 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 06:31 AM
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Sounds like Edison was the first High End audio salesman.
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post #2690 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
Yeah, that's the marketing fluff. What did the spec sheet say?

I'll bet it gave a power/distortion spec with soft clipping off, but not with soft clipping on. So it's honest, but slightly incomplete. (As spec sheets usually are.)

Look, I'm not trying to beat up on NAD here. I'm just agreeing with Arny that soft clipping comes at a price, and noting that NAD's marketing was somewhat coy about that price. Hardly the worse offense in the audio world.

The service manual is here: http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_lib.../c326bee.shtml (registration required), but it and the schematics do not say a lot about it. I find no spec, adjustment, or performance test for it.
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post #2691 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Sounds like Edison was the first High End audio salesman.
Yes, and looking at Anna Case two posts above, looks like Edison wanted to emphasize how flat the frequency response was

@amirm
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Thank you both for your replies
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post #2692 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic
I want to make sure nobody mistakenly thinks that I'm claiming the hi-res version sounds better. All I did was find a way to hone in on a tiny difference in the transient details that acted as a "tell." I don't know if IM distortion is the reason for it, or if it has to do with resampling 24/96 to 16/44.1—a process that I've never been convinced is truly transparent. I'd feel more comfortable comparing 24/88 to 16/44, or 24/96 to 16/48. Perhaps it is something else altogether.
It seems perhaps imagic's post was not quite like you stated above perhaps you should check your references here ..........journalism 101 ...so where is the proof hires is better?
Put your "gotcha" back in your pocket, tubetwister. I haven't claimed that these tests show that hi-rez files sound "better." ABX tests don't distinguish preference, only whether or not a difference was audible. The question I was answering was about ABX tests where someone had learned to be able to distinguish the hi-rez file from the downsampled version. The imagic post to which I was referring did just that.

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post #2693 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

I can see how Ms. Case might lessen her voices' dynamic range to fit the recording medium and add some intentional vibrato to mimic flutter, but her ability to replicate wax cylinder surface noise is just uncanny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUeXnJZZvts


No wonder people found the two sounds "indistinguishable".
Maybe she had talents along the line of this guy:

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post #2694 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Perhaps the most surprising factoid I've uncovered related to this seminal event is this one:

http://operaprojects.org/tonetest.htm

"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."
If you had actually read my article that I referenced, Mr. Krueger, you will have noted that I did include this qualifier.

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post #2695 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Enough relevant facts from that demonstration seem to have survived in the historical record, especially in the papers of Anna Case, that we know what people said at the time with pretty good accuracy.

No intelligent reader will be the slightest bit surprised if someone should humbly suggest that Atkinson's interpretation of that event is not the only one, not the best one, or perhaps not even an accurate one. Personal agendas, anyone?

There are just a few other accounts, and Google should be your friend.

Perhaps the most surprising factoid I've uncovered related to this seminal event is this one:

http://operaprojects.org/tonetest.htm

"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

As the saying goes: "Nuff said". ;-)
The article claimes that Edison ''often personally chose the musicians who recorded on his label. Case was his favorite because of her straight, non-vibrato tone. Newspapers report Edison traveling many miles to see Case's concerts, and he asked to hear a recording of her on the first transcontinental Phone callcall.''


Edison developed hearing problems at an early age. An Edison quote ''I have not heard a bird sing since I was twelve years old.''


Can you really trust a source that makes such mistake?
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post #2696 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 09:17 AM
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It works the other way too -- people can 'believe' that two things sound quite different, when they don't at all.

This, in fact, is why blind listening tests and/or measurements are used to verify claims of audible difference/preference.
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post #2697 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
This couple were taken to this wet and cold mountain where no person has any business being and needed drinking water. They were next to a river but because it was 50 degrees and raining all the time, they could not start a fire to boil it and get rid of the harmful bacteria and pathogens in there. After suffering for a while, they then decide to go to the tall/massive waterfall that was feeding that river. The naked male explained why: "the farther down you are from source of water, the more chance that some animal has defecated in there so by going to the top of the fall, the chances of getting sick is far lower." So they went and lived ever after. Except that they didn't, not being able to feed themselves for 21 days in near freezing weather!

Anyway, same thing here. As I keep saying, if you get the original master, then you don't need to make any comparisons. You are getting water at the top of the waterfall. The CD is farther down and chances increase that quality has been lowered. By the time you get to MP3, you are assured that some animal has defecated in there. I mean, quality reduced .

So don't ask me how you can compare the river water to that of waterfall. Get the waterfall water and be done with it.
But what if you can prove that any impurities are too low a level to be detected, tasted, or have any effect on human health? What if it costs 5x more to get water straight from the waterfall, and you have to walk a mile each time to do it?

Then it becomes irrational to pay the extra money and make the extra trip. People are free to become irrational, but such irrationality is rarely benign: it usually means they're neglecting something else.

Abandon the concept of "good enough", and you can always be sold "better". It never ends. The cost is 50x to climb the waterfall, and it takes you 8 hours to do it, but boy that water is pure!

The cost is 500x to fly into the clouds, and it takes you 20 hours to do it, but oh the pure water!


Interestingly, some people delight in higher cost and greater inconvenience. Sometimes they want whatever someone will tell them is "better". Sometimes they only concentrate on one dimension of "better" at a time, possibly making the overall experience worse. Sometimes the higher cost and greater inconvenience delivers no change in experience at all.

Meanwhile some people have a basic curiosity about what is good enough, where objectively better ceases to be noticeably better, and why. Sometimes they have a good grasp of the various dimensions of "better", leading to a much better experience overall.

Those two different kinds of people should probably never meet.

Cheers,
David.

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post #2698 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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It works the other way too -- people can 'believe' that two things sound quite different, when they don't at all.
No! How can that be??? I wonder how many people are reading this thread that needed to know our talking point there.

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This, in fact, is why blind listening tests and/or measurements are used to verify claims of audible difference/preference.
It didn't work in this thread now, did it? I ran test after test. Did it "verify" claims of audible difference? No. I didn't even claim there was an audible difference prior to running the tests. Only reported what the recommended tool did. Did our camp cheer? No. They question whether the results are real, gamed, etc.

Now, maybe they are right. That these DBTs are unreliable. If so, why would we keep asking for a test whose results are unreliable in our opinion?

More so, what do we make of the fact that we ourselves hate to run and report on the results? We have no foobar from you. We have not foobar from Tube. We have no foobar from Robert. We have no foobar from Kut. We have no foobar from mcnarus. We have no foobar from Chu. And we barely have a report or two from Arny with him dismissing those results himself!

So instead of repeating our tired campaign line, how about you all put some real effort behind these tests and see how far you get? m.zillch did it after an hour. See if you can beat his record. Even if you can't tell the differences, post your results to show that some people can't hear these differences. Run Arny's "IM test" and let everyone know how good or bad your system is or how valid his theory is. These would be constructive contributions to the thread, not repeating those lines over and over again as if anyone beside me is deaf and blind.
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post #2699 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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But what if you can prove that any impurities are too low a level to be detected, tasted, or have any effect on human health?
That's the trick, isn't it? Problem we face in audio is that we don't have the measurements that say, "this is audible."

I am not a doctor but even in the water example my understanding is that there is no certainty. We can tolerate certain amount of impurities and some can tolerate more than others.

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What if it costs 5x more to get water straight from the waterfall, and you have to walk a mile each time to do it?
Well, they walked many miles to the top of the waterfall and it was worth it to do that than have severe stomach pain and discomfort.

In the context of this topic, the high-res content does not cost 5X more. And if it does, then sure, each one of us can decide if the extra purity is worth it or not.

Anthony Bourdain in his book, Kitchen Confidential, talks about how the seafood market opens at something like 3:00am. The best chef go then to pick the best seafood. By 10:00am, what is left is stinking fish that is starting to rot in the hot weather. He says that is when the Chinese cooks show up and buy what is left at really low prices. He asks, "how else did you think they can sell you a seafood dish for $7 or some such price?" That is on my mind anytime I eat Chinese food in a strip mall .

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Then it becomes irrational to pay the extra money and make the extra trip. People are free to become irrational, but such irrationality is rarely benign: it usually means they're neglecting something else.
What is irrational to you and me, is perfect rational to somebody else. When I started working at Microsoft, one of my bosses had made a ton of money since he had been there way before I had. Despite being far younger than me, his net worth was in a completely different class. To wit, he wanted to buy a Ferrari that had a year waiting list. Anxious to have "something" he bought a used Ferrari with intent to trade it in for the other one in a year. I did the math and the sales tax alone was more than a new Honda Accord on the "used one!" To me that was the most irrational thing I had heard. But to him, it was perfectly rational given his interest to get that car and the amount of money he had.

Should we get together and start a movement to declare the above irrational and try to stop people from doing what he did? What do we do if we ever find ourselves in his situation? How many of us drive a used compact car instead of an SUV? How many of us live in a one-bedroom apartment instead of a big house with four bedrooms? We could all sleep in one room, right?

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Abandon the concept of "good enough", and you can always be sold "better". It never ends. The cost is 50x to climb the waterfall, and it takes you 8 hours to do it, but boy that water is pure!
In the case of high-res content, it ends and it ends quickly. Get the master that was created for the track and you are done. There is no higher hill to climb. And it doesn't cost 50X.

What we are advocating is let's make it illegal for people to go to the top of the waterfall.

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The cost is 500x to fly into the clouds, and it takes you 20 hours to do it, but oh the pure water!
I was having sushi once. As I always do, I ask where the fish came from, its quality, etc. We had this fish that the chef said was "farmed" but that they kept them in ocean and pumped water from the bottom of the ocean into the pen as to provide a much fresher environment for them. The taste was amazing. Even more amazing was comments from my Japanese colleagues that were there. They said in Japan they actually bottle and sell that water! He had never heard of it being used to breed fish. "Ah the pure water."

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Interestingly, some people delight in higher cost and greater inconvenience. Sometimes they want whatever someone will tell them is "better". Sometimes they only concentrate on one dimension of "better" at a time, possibly making the overall experience worse. Sometimes the higher cost and greater inconvenience delivers no change in experience at all.
That is certainly true. My partner Steve on WBF Forum, has a set of tube pre-amps that are mono. So every time he wants to change the volume, he has to turn both dials up and down! To me that makes no sense. To him, it is worth it. I put huge value on convenience. He does not.

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Meanwhile some people have a basic curiosity about what is good enough, where objectively better ceases to be noticeably better, and why. Sometimes they have a good grasp of the various dimensions of "better", leading to a much better experience overall.
Sure.

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Those two different kinds of people should probably never meet.
Well said. Unfortunately they do meet on these forums.

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Cheers,
David.
Great, thought provoking post David. My apology in responding to every sentence separately. Did not mean that to come across me being critical of what you are saying .

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post #2700 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 11:18 AM
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If you have a problem with it, refute it.
Weird.... my early post was gone....?

I do not have 'problem' with it. Someone with a few replies ago just mentioned some of people who could distinguish the files show that I am merely stating the fact while your claim is simply false ('lying' would be better word, I think). I don't even have to work to 'refute' it since others are doing it instead of me.
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