Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 90 - AVS Forum
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post #2671 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch
With backing ABX results?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch
I must have missed those posts. Please provide links, thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
Look through the thread and you will find examples. One was from iMagic, IIRC.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

John See below


Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic

I want to make sure nobody mistakenly thinks that I'm claiming the hi-res version sounds better. All I did was find a way to hone in on a tiny difference in the transient details that acted as a "tell." I don't know if IM distortion is the reason for it, or if it has to do with resampling 24/96 to 16/44.1—a process that I've never been convinced is truly transparent. I'd feel more comfortable comparing 24/88 to 16/44, or 24/96 to 16/48. Perhaps it is something else altogether.
It seems perhaps imagic's post was not quite like you stated above perhaps you should check your references here ..........journalism 101 ...so where is the proof hires is better ?............... Now you know why I don't buy the magazine . good thing you are your own editor huh ?

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post #2672 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 05:54 PM
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[edit to add: Note post time compared to above. That is, I never saw this post, above, before posting mine.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Look through the thread and you will find examples. One was from iMagic, IIRC.
I guess you are counting this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I want to make sure nobody mistakenly thinks that I'm claiming the hi-res version sounds better. All I did was find a way to hone in on a tiny difference in the transient details that acted as a "tell." I don't know if IM distortion is the reason for it, or if it has to do with resampling 24/96 to 16/44.1—a process that I've never been convinced is truly transparent.
Besides him, the only other two people to pass Arny's ABX test are me an amirm. I keyed off a subtle flaw I believe Arny has now fixed, and amirm didn't describe his beliefs as "thought there was no difference [but subsequently] learned to recognize it".


BTW, were you able to get ABX working on your Mac platform [which Arny provided possible links for about a week ago after you asked for them] so that we might see your double blind test results? I'm sure lots of people here besides just me would be most curious to see your results!

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #2673 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Gee, why am I not surprised. He gives audio salesmen a bad name, and that really is saying something.
+1 Most of us here with a minimum amount of common sense are not surprised just one more reason to
advocate regulatory intervention in the industry

Posting edited by original poster see postings 2748 and 2749 for more comments

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2674 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 06:20 PM
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this is almost tooooo easy

Amir = fish

AVS = barrel
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post #2675 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
this is almost tooooo easy

Amir = fish

AVS = barrel
good fishing we caught two today...... one big one also ........ lets throw them back ! maybe they should move on and start their own forums maybe they already have forums none that I'm interested in though !
MAYBE I should troll them though see how they like it on their home turf to bad they don't move out of town or the galaxy ha ha

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2676 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
Back to the non linear distortion thing I think I get this for the most part ,

"For larger values of u, the higher order coefficients such as a_2 and a_3 come into play." -wikipedia -

not to sure about this stuff so much though ,
Quote:
Originally Posted by arynk
The other form of nonlinear distortion is not nearly as obvious nor as clear cut.

My paraphrased change to the above describing the other more gradual form of nonlinear distortion than clipping would be:

For all real world devices, a linear model is accurate only for small signal levels. For example, at 2 volts input, a typical audio amplifier might put out 20 V, meaning that the linear gain is 10 V/V. For 3 V input, the amplifier might output 29 V, meaning that the gain has dropped from 10 V/V for the first 2 volts of input to 9 V/V for the last volt of input.
Quotes edited for brevity see post 2664 ,2667 for more info

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
Don't suppose anyone anyone's seen any third or maybe sixth order and beyond non linear
Quote:
Originally Posted by arynk
distortion in the keys files here ............... or would that be a stretch ?
If people overdrive their amplifiers then the usual result is symmetrical clipping which is the same as odd-order distortion. Odd order distortion is composed of third, fifth, seventh, nineth and so on harmonics.
Thanks for the two postings and answering all my questions and then some . very informative gives me a better grasp of these things now
non linear gain reminds me of diminishing returns on an investment in a way you put in two like amounts but may not get like returns also better explains operating overhead in an amp and gives me a grasp on some variables
for many reasons so I can relate to the non linear gain and also understand what is going on under the hood much better with clipping now

I'll be saving this stuff for reference thanks again !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2677 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
@amirm
@stereoeditor

I have a question for you guys.

I already said that I think that amir's test results are significant in terms of ABX testing. However, I am still pondering their importance, and I become curious about what kind of importance you attribute to them.
Thanks for your vote of confidence and constructive question/post .

Quote:
Amir, you deal in high end installations. John Atkinson is Stereophile's editor. What will you tell your clients/readers?
Madrona's business is in whole house/business electronics. We don't cater to audiophiles/audiophile products although some of the products we carry fall in that domain. We probably install/sell 1000 Crown pro amps powering in-wall speakers to one Mark Levinson amplifier. The latter comes as someone calling us specifically to buy one and not as a result of any sales effort by us. So nothing here matters one way or the other with respect to my company's clients, nor do I imagine having any conversation with any of them now or in the future about these topics.

Quote:
Will you tell them that hires audio is demonstrably different/better than standard res, but that, in order to appreciate such difference, they must train they ears, then find a significant segment of a song, than play it back and forth? Or will you tell them the usual stuff (sound stage, air, clarity and so on)?
My position on this topic was stated on the first page. That it doesn't matter if there is or there is no difference in these downsamplings. That point becomes academic if we get the original masters. I like to hear what the talent heard and approved as the initial master. I don't need anyone to go and downsample the files for me. I can do that myself although with dirt cheap cost of storage, I would personally keep such files in high resolution.

If asked if the difference is night and day, my answer is that it is not to my ears. These are subtle differences to me anyway. There is that euphonic factor however that I can't quantify. When I have a piece of exemplary tuna sashimi, it transforms me to a happier place far more than its quantitative molecular differences would indicate. I could also find a hundred people who think they just taste the same. When I hear a note decay and decay into nothing instead of terminating toward the end, it puts a smile on my face. It is the tiniest difference to be sure. But if you know how to listen for it and appreciate it, it will tend to have special value.

Hope this answered your question .

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post #2678 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Well, yes, you can do that but if all you're doing is buying music and not ripping to 320, just storing it on your HD for later playback you can't.
That is a quandary that you have created yourself Chu. So the fact that it doesn't have a good answer, is a self-made issue.

Being the mischievous person that you are, you no doubt are avid watcher of the reality show Naked and Afraid? If not, and for those not into the types of things you are, here is a quick intro:


I was watching the latest episode on DVR. This couple were taken to this wet and cold mountain where no person has any business being and needed drinking water. They were next to a river but because it was 50 degrees and raining all the time, they could not start a fire to boil it and get rid of the harmful bacteria and pathogens in there. After suffering for a while, they then decide to go to the tall/massive waterfall that was feeding that river. The naked male explained why: "the farther down you are from source of water, the more chance that some animal has defecated in there so by going to the top of the fall, the chances of getting sick is far lower." So they went and lived ever after. Except that they didn't, not being able to feed themselves for 21 days in near freezing weather!

Anyway, same thing here. As I keep saying, if you get the original master, then you don't need to make any comparisons. You are getting water at the top of the waterfall. The CD is farther down and chances increase that quality has been lowered. By the time you get to MP3, you are assured that some animal has defecated in there. I mean, quality reduced .

So don't ask me how you can compare the river water to that of waterfall. Get the waterfall water and be done with it.

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post #2679 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 07:59 PM
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Never saw the show. I'm very disappointed in you.

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post #2680 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:05 PM
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In case you have not heard We had a mutiny here while you out Mr Queeg you and your first officer JA have been summarily relived of your duties by popular vote and logical common sense and after acting captains mast at dawn you all may be set to walk the plank or left on a remote island with some minimal provisions (think naked and afraid there may be aboriginal cannibals or head hunters on the island ) the good ship is on autopilot for now and no longer requires your or your first officers assistance maybe we can get arny to assume command after the captains mast and disposition if not there are plenty of capable blokes aboard ! stop.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2681 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Never saw the show. I'm very disappointed in you.
So what you saying? That I should tear up this picture of us together?


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post #2682 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Besides him, the only other two people to pass Arny's ABX test are me an amirm.
No, this member did too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
BTW here is the ABX log for me running an ABX test on just the keys jangling portion of the file:

--------------------------------
*Note - levels and passage selection fudged for best false positives


foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/28 07:53:00

File A: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3 4416.wav
File B: C:\Users\client64\Music\AVS\Keys jangling\keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3.wav

07:53:00 : Test started.
07:54:38 : Trial reset.
07:56:40 : 01/01 50.0%
07:56:55 : 02/02 25.0%
07:57:15 : 03/03 12.5%
07:57:21 : 04/04 6.3%
07:57:27 : 05/05 3.1%
07:57:35 : 06/06 1.6%
07:57:42 : 06/07 6.3%
07:57:55 : 07/08 3.5%
07:58:10 : 08/09 2.0%
07:58:27 : 09/10 1.1%
07:58:35 : 10/11 0.6%
07:58:52 : 11/12 0.3%
07:59:09 : 12/13 0.2%
07:59:15 : 13/14 0.1%
07:59:22 : 14/15 0.0%
07:59:52 : 15/16 0.0%
07:59:59 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)
--------------------------------

Obviously, I'm not going to BS anybody, this was a bogus test. I selected the level and the portion of the track that I actually listened to to maximize the audible difference based on nonlinear distortion in the crappy monitoring system in this PC producing more audible IM with the 2496 test file than with the 4416 file.
He has a theory of why he heard what he heard, but he did manage to differentiate the two files. I asked him and you if you shared your method of finding the difference and neither one of you answered. So I trust Arny heard it without knowing how you did it.

Quote:
I keyed off a subtle flaw I believe Arny has now fixed, and amirm didn't describe his beliefs as "thought there was no difference [but subsequently] learned to recognize it".
I have been clear that my ability to hear such small differences comes from training some 15 years ago. Even with that training, I did have to listen and become familiar with these clips to tell them apart. I thought you said the same: that it took you an hour of listening until you found your "tell." Prior to that you were oblivious to it, right? And after that you could hear it all the time.

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post #2683 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 08:43 PM
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Watching the FX show Tyrant ............. nobody likes him they are all making a fool of him ...... family too imagine that !
I'm in the bedroom with my newer Sony LED and one of the PC's on the LAN great picture for a LED .




............waiting for sunrise...............favorite time of day

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2684 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 09:51 PM
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Oh that's a cute picture. ....Which one is the albino?

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post #2685 of 2920 Old 07-30-2014, 10:16 PM
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Favorite movie line > Hunt For Red October> Andrei Bonovia: to Captain Tupolev You arrogant ass! You've killed us!"
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other sound bytes same movie link
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other sound bytes same movie link
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other sound bytes same movie link
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2686 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:12 AM
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New Apple Beats (or is it Beats Apple now ) auto hires listening research bot


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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #2687 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post
If you have a problem with it, refute it.
I have no 'problem' with it. I merely stated the fact, and it is you making an laughable false claim.

There is no need to do anything since anyone who reads this thread can figure it out eventually.
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post #2688 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 02:28 AM
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me i'd rather be chillin wit a hot babe at outdoor concert listening to da real thing and havin a tall cold one and some bud screw dees bits and zero's bro!

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #2689 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
In my lecture I mentioned the well-known example of Edison's 1915 live vs recorded demonstration between the live voice of soprano Anna Case and his Diamond Disc Phonograph, where, given the audience's unfamiliarity with the flaws of the phonograph, they could not perceive any difference between Ms. Cases' voice and the reproduction of it. But once the flaws become familiar, what was once non-existent first becomes subtly noticeable, then significant. Witness the postings in this thread where people who thought there was no difference learned to recognize it. Perception involves learning - the ear is not a microphone.
Enough relevant facts from that demonstration seem to have survived in the historical record, especially in the papers of Anna Case, that we know what people said at the time with pretty good accuracy.

No intelligent reader will be the slightest bit surprised if someone should humbly suggest that Atkinson's interpretation of that event is not the only one, not the best one, or perhaps not even an accurate one. Personal agendas, anyone?

There are just a few other accounts, and Google should be your friend.

Perhaps the most surprising factoid I've uncovered related to this seminal event is this one:

http://operaprojects.org/tonetest.htm

"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

As the saying goes: "Nuff said". ;-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
BTW, were you able to get ABX working on your Mac platform [which Arny provided possible links for about a week ago after you asked for them] so that we might see your double blind test results? I'm sure lots of people here besides just me would be most curious to see your results!
I strongly advise not holding one's breath... ;-)
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"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

I can see how Ms. Case might lessen her voices' dynamic range to fit the recording medium and add some intentional vibrato to mimic flutter, but her ability to replicate wax cylinder surface noise is just uncanny:


No wonder people found the two sounds "indistinguishable".
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post #2692 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 03:48 AM
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“People will hear what you tell them to hear.” -Thomas Alva Edison


“Those who hear this test will realize fully for the first time how literally true it is that Mr. Edison has made possible the re-creation of the artist’s voice. No more exacting test could be made to demonstrate that the New Edison actually does re-create the voice of the artist than to play it side by side with the artist who made the records. This is the final proof. Close your eyes. See if you can distinguish the voice of the New Edison from that of the artist. Did you ever believe it possible to re-create a voice? Note that the voice of the artist and the voice of the Edison are indistinguishable.”

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post #2693 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:31 AM
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Sounds like Edison was the first High End audio salesman.
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post #2694 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
Yeah, that's the marketing fluff. What did the spec sheet say?

I'll bet it gave a power/distortion spec with soft clipping off, but not with soft clipping on. So it's honest, but slightly incomplete. (As spec sheets usually are.)

Look, I'm not trying to beat up on NAD here. I'm just agreeing with Arny that soft clipping comes at a price, and noting that NAD's marketing was somewhat coy about that price. Hardly the worse offense in the audio world.

The service manual is here: http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_lib.../c326bee.shtml (registration required), but it and the schematics do not say a lot about it. I find no spec, adjustment, or performance test for it.
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post #2695 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Sounds like Edison was the first High End audio salesman.
Yes, and looking at Anna Case two posts above, looks like Edison wanted to emphasize how flat the frequency response was

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post #2696 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic
I want to make sure nobody mistakenly thinks that I'm claiming the hi-res version sounds better. All I did was find a way to hone in on a tiny difference in the transient details that acted as a "tell." I don't know if IM distortion is the reason for it, or if it has to do with resampling 24/96 to 16/44.1—a process that I've never been convinced is truly transparent. I'd feel more comfortable comparing 24/88 to 16/44, or 24/96 to 16/48. Perhaps it is something else altogether.
It seems perhaps imagic's post was not quite like you stated above perhaps you should check your references here ..........journalism 101 ...so where is the proof hires is better?
Put your "gotcha" back in your pocket, tubetwister. I haven't claimed that these tests show that hi-rez files sound "better." ABX tests don't distinguish preference, only whether or not a difference was audible. The question I was answering was about ABX tests where someone had learned to be able to distinguish the hi-rez file from the downsampled version. The imagic post to which I was referring did just that.

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post #2697 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

I can see how Ms. Case might lessen her voices' dynamic range to fit the recording medium and add some intentional vibrato to mimic flutter, but her ability to replicate wax cylinder surface noise is just uncanny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUeXnJZZvts


No wonder people found the two sounds "indistinguishable".
Maybe she had talents along the line of this guy:

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post #2698 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Perhaps the most surprising factoid I've uncovered related to this seminal event is this one:

http://operaprojects.org/tonetest.htm

"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."
If you had actually read my article that I referenced, Mr. Krueger, you will have noted that I did include this qualifier.

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post #2699 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Enough relevant facts from that demonstration seem to have survived in the historical record, especially in the papers of Anna Case, that we know what people said at the time with pretty good accuracy.

No intelligent reader will be the slightest bit surprised if someone should humbly suggest that Atkinson's interpretation of that event is not the only one, not the best one, or perhaps not even an accurate one. Personal agendas, anyone?

There are just a few other accounts, and Google should be your friend.

Perhaps the most surprising factoid I've uncovered related to this seminal event is this one:

http://operaprojects.org/tonetest.htm

"Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph."

As the saying goes: "Nuff said". ;-)
The article claimes that Edison ''often personally chose the musicians who recorded on his label. Case was his favorite because of her straight, non-vibrato tone. Newspapers report Edison traveling many miles to see Case's concerts, and he asked to hear a recording of her on the first transcontinental Phone callcall.''


Edison developed hearing problems at an early age. An Edison quote ''I have not heard a bird sing since I was twelve years old.''


Can you really trust a source that makes such mistake?
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post #2700 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 08:17 AM
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It works the other way too -- people can 'believe' that two things sound quite different, when they don't at all.

This, in fact, is why blind listening tests and/or measurements are used to verify claims of audible difference/preference.
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