Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 91 - AVS Forum
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post #2701 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
This couple were taken to this wet and cold mountain where no person has any business being and needed drinking water. They were next to a river but because it was 50 degrees and raining all the time, they could not start a fire to boil it and get rid of the harmful bacteria and pathogens in there. After suffering for a while, they then decide to go to the tall/massive waterfall that was feeding that river. The naked male explained why: "the farther down you are from source of water, the more chance that some animal has defecated in there so by going to the top of the fall, the chances of getting sick is far lower." So they went and lived ever after. Except that they didn't, not being able to feed themselves for 21 days in near freezing weather!

Anyway, same thing here. As I keep saying, if you get the original master, then you don't need to make any comparisons. You are getting water at the top of the waterfall. The CD is farther down and chances increase that quality has been lowered. By the time you get to MP3, you are assured that some animal has defecated in there. I mean, quality reduced .

So don't ask me how you can compare the river water to that of waterfall. Get the waterfall water and be done with it.
But what if you can prove that any impurities are too low a level to be detected, tasted, or have any effect on human health? What if it costs 5x more to get water straight from the waterfall, and you have to walk a mile each time to do it?

Then it becomes irrational to pay the extra money and make the extra trip. People are free to become irrational, but such irrationality is rarely benign: it usually means they're neglecting something else.

Abandon the concept of "good enough", and you can always be sold "better". It never ends. The cost is 50x to climb the waterfall, and it takes you 8 hours to do it, but boy that water is pure!

The cost is 500x to fly into the clouds, and it takes you 20 hours to do it, but oh the pure water!


Interestingly, some people delight in higher cost and greater inconvenience. Sometimes they want whatever someone will tell them is "better". Sometimes they only concentrate on one dimension of "better" at a time, possibly making the overall experience worse. Sometimes the higher cost and greater inconvenience delivers no change in experience at all.

Meanwhile some people have a basic curiosity about what is good enough, where objectively better ceases to be noticeably better, and why. Sometimes they have a good grasp of the various dimensions of "better", leading to a much better experience overall.

Those two different kinds of people should probably never meet.

Cheers,
David.

Last edited by 2Bdecided; 07-31-2014 at 10:26 AM.
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post #2702 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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It works the other way too -- people can 'believe' that two things sound quite different, when they don't at all.
No! How can that be??? I wonder how many people are reading this thread that needed to know our talking point there.

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This, in fact, is why blind listening tests and/or measurements are used to verify claims of audible difference/preference.
It didn't work in this thread now, did it? I ran test after test. Did it "verify" claims of audible difference? No. I didn't even claim there was an audible difference prior to running the tests. Only reported what the recommended tool did. Did our camp cheer? No. They question whether the results are real, gamed, etc.

Now, maybe they are right. That these DBTs are unreliable. If so, why would we keep asking for a test whose results are unreliable in our opinion?

More so, what do we make of the fact that we ourselves hate to run and report on the results? We have no foobar from you. We have not foobar from Tube. We have no foobar from Robert. We have no foobar from Kut. We have no foobar from mcnarus. We have no foobar from Chu. And we barely have a report or two from Arny with him dismissing those results himself!

So instead of repeating our tired campaign line, how about you all put some real effort behind these tests and see how far you get? m.zillch did it after an hour. See if you can beat his record. Even if you can't tell the differences, post your results to show that some people can't hear these differences. Run Arny's "IM test" and let everyone know how good or bad your system is or how valid his theory is. These would be constructive contributions to the thread, not repeating those lines over and over again as if anyone beside me is deaf and blind.
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post #2703 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
But what if you can prove that any impurities are too low a level to be detected, tasted, or have any effect on human health?
That's the trick, isn't it? Problem we face in audio is that we don't have the measurements that say, "this is audible."

I am not a doctor but even in the water example my understanding is that there is no certainty. We can tolerate certain amount of impurities and some can tolerate more than others.

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What if it costs 5x more to get water straight from the waterfall, and you have to walk a mile each time to do it?
Well, they walked many miles to the top of the waterfall and it was worth it to do that than have severe stomach pain and discomfort.

In the context of this topic, the high-res content does not cost 5X more. And if it does, then sure, each one of us can decide if the extra purity is worth it or not.

Anthony Bourdain in his book, Kitchen Confidential, talks about how the seafood market opens at something like 3:00am. The best chef go then to pick the best seafood. By 10:00am, what is left is stinking fish that is starting to rot in the hot weather. He says that is when the Chinese cooks show up and buy what is left at really low prices. He asks, "how else did you think they can sell you a seafood dish for $7 or some such price?" That is on my mind anytime I eat Chinese food in a strip mall .

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Then it becomes irrational to pay the extra money and make the extra trip. People are free to become irrational, but such irrationality is rarely benign: it usually means they're neglecting something else.
What is irrational to you and me, is perfect rational to somebody else. When I started working at Microsoft, one of my bosses had made a ton of money since he had been there way before I had. Despite being far younger than me, his net worth was in a completely different class. To wit, he wanted to buy a Ferrari that had a year waiting list. Anxious to have "something" he bought a used Ferrari with intent to trade it in for the other one in a year. I did the math and the sales tax alone was more than a new Honda Accord on the "used one!" To me that was the most irrational thing I had heard. But to him, it was perfectly rational given his interest to get that car and the amount of money he had.

Should we get together and start a movement to declare the above irrational and try to stop people from doing what he did? What do we do if we ever find ourselves in his situation? How many of us drive a used compact car instead of an SUV? How many of us live in a one-bedroom apartment instead of a big house with four bedrooms? We could all sleep in one room, right?

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Abandon the concept of "good enough", and you can always be sold "better". It never ends. The cost is 50x to climb the waterfall, and it takes you 8 hours to do it, but boy that water is pure!
In the case of high-res content, it ends and it ends quickly. Get the master that was created for the track and you are done. There is no higher hill to climb. And it doesn't cost 50X.

What we are advocating is let's make it illegal for people to go to the top of the waterfall.

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The cost is 500x to fly into the clouds, and it takes you 20 hours to do it, but oh the pure water!
I was having sushi once. As I always do, I ask where the fish came from, its quality, etc. We had this fish that the chef said was "farmed" but that they kept them in ocean and pumped water from the bottom of the ocean into the pen as to provide a much fresher environment for them. The taste was amazing. Even more amazing was comments from my Japanese colleagues that were there. They said in Japan they actually bottle and sell that water! He had never heard of it being used to breed fish. "Ah the pure water."

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Interestingly, some people delight in higher cost and greater inconvenience. Sometimes they want whatever someone will tell them is "better". Sometimes they only concentrate on one dimension of "better" at a time, possibly making the overall experience worse. Sometimes the higher cost and greater inconvenience delivers no change in experience at all.
That is certainly true. My partner Steve on WBF Forum, has a set of tube pre-amps that are mono. So every time he wants to change the volume, he has to turn both dials up and down! To me that makes no sense. To him, it is worth it. I put huge value on convenience. He does not.

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Meanwhile some people have a basic curiosity about what is good enough, where objectively better ceases to be noticeably better, and why. Sometimes they have a good grasp of the various dimensions of "better", leading to a much better experience overall.
Sure.

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Those two different kinds of people should probably never meet.
Well said. Unfortunately they do meet on these forums.

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Cheers,
David.
Great, thought provoking post David. My apology in responding to every sentence separately. Did not mean that to come across me being critical of what you are saying .

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post #2704 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 11:18 AM
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If you have a problem with it, refute it.
Weird.... my early post was gone....?

I do not have 'problem' with it. Someone with a few replies ago just mentioned some of people who could distinguish the files show that I am merely stating the fact while your claim is simply false ('lying' would be better word, I think). I don't even have to work to 'refute' it since others are doing it instead of me.
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post #2705 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 11:35 AM
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In the context of this topic, the high-res content does not cost 5X more. And if it does, then sure, each one of us can decide if the extra purity is worth it or not.
It does and sometimes more. The price is the most crucial issue on... well, not just high-res content, but music in general.

Say, Norah Johns's Come Away With Me would cost me 25 bucks for 192/24, 20 bucks for 96/24 (from HDtracks).

MP3 album would cost me 6 bucks, Or I can grab a CD which would cost me mere 5 bucks including shipping. CD has album art cover, linear notes that both mp3 and hdtrack do not have.

And then there are albums cost 35 bucks or more as in high-res contents.

Nearly 10 bucks~20 bucks difference per album. Those differences add up pretty fast as one buys more album. It is not merely a waterfall at that point. It's mount Everest. The price of these HD albums are complete nonsense since I can get a blu-ray movie at same price, or a video game at the price of two albums.


I suspect the real reason that general public 'dislikes' high-res is not because they can't hear difference. They don't really care if it is advertised as 'better than ~'. It is just because those music files are priced in absurd price that causes laughter and disdain.
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post #2706 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
I suspect the real reason that general public 'dislikes' high-res is not because they can't hear difference. They don't really care if it is advertised as 'better than ~'. It is just because those music files are priced in absurd price that causes laughter and disdain.

Then again, when they pay more, and are told upfront that they should expect 'better sound', you'd better believe that lots of people are going to report hearing 'better sound'. And then many of them are going to go ooh, ahhh, it's gotta be because of all that creamy 'high def' goodness.

And then the dancers will do their dance to convince them they're right. I imagine some will point to this very thread!

To wit: Is the Dancing Man from Madrona really now saying he routinely discerns 320 kbps MP3s from source? And claiming for the past two weeks to his campfire friends at WBF that he's 'proved' he can hear hi rez vs Redbook?

Wow. We've advanced audio science and psychoacoustics so very far, in such a short time.
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post #2707 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
That's the trick, isn't it? Problem we face in audio is that we don't have the measurements that say, "this is audible."
But fortunately "we" have the good nature and patience to read the technical info provided (and the wonderful anecdotes), come to a conclusion and firmly state: "It depends".
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post #2708 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
Weird.... my early post was gone....?

I do not have 'problem' with it. Someone with a few replies ago just mentioned some of people who could distinguish the files show that I am merely stating the fact while your claim is simply false ('lying' would be better word, I think). I don't even have to work to 'refute' it since others are doing it instead of me.
Of course there are others that have passed the ABX tests. Where have I claimed different?

If you read the thread, you'd understand the claims Amir is making based on those tests.
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post #2709 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:32 PM
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Of course there are others that have passed the ABX tests. Where have I claimed different?

If you read the thread, you'd understand the claims Amir is making based on those tests.

Let's back to very first sentence that created argument between you and me:

Quote:
Given your repeated instances of "spiking the football" with your results, any claims that you have been performing these tests in good faith are highly suspect.
And this was my response.

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That's only if his case is isolated one.
What I mean 'his case is isolated one', is that he is the ONLY one who passed ABX test. Clearly, he is NOT only one who passed ABX test. You can't say his claims are 'highly suspect' only because he used results of his test a lot. Far better words would be 'annoying', 'arrogant' or 'abusive'. But, just merely annoying to read does not automatically nullify his claims either since there are 3rd party instances that support his results. I mean you can't say 'you are wrong because your arguments are annoying'... that's not a good way to absolve the discussion, right?

By contrast, Arny's counterarguments with IM issue is far better to continue the discussion.


I will drop this now since it is clearly understanding issue between you and me.
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post #2710 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:37 PM
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To save me from scrolling up several pages in the thread, can anyone please point me to the files that Arny offered (the keys files)?
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post #2711 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
The article claimes that Edison ''often personally chose the musicians who recorded on his label. Case was his favorite because of her straight, non-vibrato tone. Newspapers report Edison traveling many miles to see Case's concerts, and he asked to hear a recording of her on the first transcontinental Phone callcall.''


Edison developed hearing problems at an early age. An Edison quote ''I have not heard a bird sing since I was twelve years old.''


Can you really trust a source that makes such mistake?
What mistake?

Bird calls are generally very faint. Just because a person's threshold of hearing is high doesn't mean that they can't hear anything.
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post #2712 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
Let's back to very first sentence that created argument between you and me:



And this was my response.



What I mean 'his case is isolated one', is that he is the ONLY one who passed ABX test. Clearly, he is NOT only one who passed ABX test. You can't say his claims are 'highly suspect' only because he used results of his test a lot. Far better words would be 'annoying', 'arrogant' or 'abusive'. But, just merely annoying to read does not automatically nullify his claims either since there are 3rd party instances that support his results. I mean you can't say 'you are wrong because your arguments are annoying'... that's not a good way to absolve the discussion, right?

By contrast, Arny's counterarguments with IM issue is far better to continue the discussion.


I will drop this now since it is clearly understanding issue between you and me.
Its isolated with respect to the claims he is making. Nowhere have I said he is the only one who passed the ABX.

What part of this don't you understand?
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post #2713 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
To save me from scrolling up several pages in the thread, can anyone please point me to the files that Arny offered (the keys files)?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rjaw0fd9vg...tones%20f3.zip
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post #2714 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 12:57 PM
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Comments removed see retractions in postings 2748 and 2749

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2715 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
The article claimes that Edison ''often personally chose the musicians who recorded on his label. Case was his favorite because of her straight, non-vibrato tone. Newspapers report Edison traveling many miles to see Case's concerts, and he asked to hear a recording of her on the first transcontinental Phone callcall.''


Edison developed hearing problems at an early age. An Edison quote ''I have not heard a bird sing since I was twelve years old.''

quote edited for brevity



Posting edited by original poster see postings 2748 and 2749 for further comment


History has since exposed Thomas Edison's questionable ethics and practices , Edison vs. Westinghouse: A Shocking Rivalry is very revealing ) ,

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2716 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 01:40 PM
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That's the trick, isn't it? Problem we face in audio is that we don't have the measurements that say, "this is audible."

I am not a doctor but even in the water example my understanding is that there is no certainty.
Staggeringly pure water is easily available, at a cost. Almost no one drinks that. The few studies that exist suggest it's slightly less healthy than "normal" (i.e. less pure) water. I don't know if I want to stretch the analogy too far to audio, though I'm thinking that wider bandwidths can bring ultrasonic content that may not be helpful.

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What is irrational to you and me, is perfect rational to somebody else. When I started working at Microsoft, one of my bosses had made a ton of money since he had been there way before I had. Despite being far younger than me, his net worth was in a completely different class. To wit, he wanted to buy a Ferrari that had a year waiting list. Anxious to have "something" he bought a used Ferrari with intent to trade it in for the other one in a year. I did the math and the sales tax alone was more than a new Honda Accord on the "used one!" To me that was the most irrational thing I had heard. But to him, it was perfectly rational given his interest to get that car and the amount of money he had.

Should we get together and start a movement to declare the above irrational and try to stop people from doing what he did? What do we do if we ever find ourselves in his situation? How many of us drive a used compact car instead of an SUV? How many of us live in a one-bedroom apartment instead of a big house with four bedrooms? We could all sleep in one room, right?

...

What we are advocating is let's make it illegal for people to go to the top of the waterfall.
No, even in the part you quoted I said "People are free to become irrational" - that's the opposite of saying "let's make it illegal".

People are free to spend their money as they want. Even so, I think it's a false comparison you make: is there anyone on the planet who would demand double-blind testing to prove that there's a detectable difference between a Ferrari and a Honda Accord? The difference may not be proportionate to cost, but human perceptible difference there clearly is.

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In the case of high-res content, it ends and it ends quickly. Get the master that was created for the track and you are done. There is no higher hill to climb. And it doesn't cost 50X.
They make "better" masters. Haven't you heard of DSD512? It never ends. This stuff can follow Moore's law if we let it. Look at the first sentence quoted in this post - you've written that you don't know when to stop. :-)


Quote:
Well said. Unfortunately they do meet on these forums.
I know But the hi-rez fans have delivered positive ABX results. That's building a bridge - "these people" (if you'll forgive the expression) usually run a mile from ABX. The hi-res doubters are interested, but are looking for other causes. Careful investigation could find the real cause. Careful repetition could yield a study like Meyer and Moran but with the opposite results. However, two things are very important: does it sound better (rather than just different), and is it down to equipment imperfections (because we know certain types of equipment imperfections would make ultrasonics very audible - and most of us would hope to minimise those kinds of imperfections).

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Great, thought provoking post David. My apology in responding to every sentence separately. Did not mean that to come across me being critical of what you are saying .
Ditto.

btw, it's great to have full length samples legally available to test with.

Cheers,
David.
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post #2717 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
That's the trick, isn't it? Problem we face in audio is that we don't have the measurements that say, "this is audible."
Excluded middle argument with elements of denial added in apparently for fun and profit.

Some of our measurements can tell us: "Just about everybody can hear this" and we have other measurements that can tell us "Nobody is going to hear this, no way". Especially the second thing is reprehensible to many high end audio dupes.

One of the things that self labels people as being hopelessly irrational anti-science subjectivists is denial of simple, common sense facts such as shown above above about the correlation of measurements and audibility. Denial of science still seems to sell a lot of copies of high end audio ragazines and a certain amount of the over-priced equipment they hype.

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I am not a doctor but even in the water example my understanding is that there is no certainty. We can tolerate certain amount of impurities and some can tolerate more than others.
The water example is also highly flawed and therefore misleading and false. Again its anti-science subjectivist bias destroys its credibility.

My late brother in law was a world-class public health expert. He told me that he could get a sample from a local water supply and predict how many work days per year was lost on the average resident due to water-borne diseases. He could back that prediction up with public health surveys. He could then find a clean source of water, measure it, and predict what the reduction of days work lost would be. After redirecting the area's water supply to the clean source, they would come back and repeat the survey and find that the promised improvement was delivered.

He later on repeated the same sort of thing by predicting the rates of eye disease by measuring the nutrients in local diets. It was just a matter of asking the right questions and doing the right tests and interpreting them properly.
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post #2718 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 02:02 PM
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It's alleged that Ms. Case later admitted to having trained her voice to sound like the phonograph." As Arny was so kind to point out
Something you *may have * conveniently omitted in your earlier post here at * AVS * as related to Thomas Edison and Ms. Case to support your obviously intended narrative.
As I posted earlier, I did indeed mention this in my AES lecture, to which I provided a link. I can only assume that neither you nor Arny Krueger bothered to click on that link. But even if Ms. Case tried to imitate the phonograph, it doesn't affect at all the point I was making about perception, that if you don't know what to listen for, you won't necessarily perceive it.

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post #2719 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 02:22 PM
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What mistake?

Bird calls are generally very faint. Just because a person's threshold of hearing is high doesn't mean that they can't hear anything.
Well. The guy had a severe hearing problem from age 12. From what i understand he was deaf in his left ear and had 20% hearing in his right ear left. SEVERE_ he was kind of deaf.

It is a bit odd that a guy with severe hearing problems ''traveled many miles to see Case's concerts''. What's also odd is that he, dispite having severe hearing problems, ''loved Case because of her straight, non-vibrato tone''.


Interesting question to me is if folks were able to tell the difference between her voice and the phonographic reproduction of her voice (which includes ''wax cylinder surface noise'' as m.zillch puts it).

Less interesting to me is that Case and others trained their voices to sound like the machine. or that Case turned down her voice a bit in Carnegie Hall tone-test because of the modest sound coming from the phonograph. Was probably part of a advertisement campain..


Looks like there was lots of manipulation going on back then, and this might just be the tip of the iceberg. That Edison guy was a ''tricky dick'' Is HE considered to be ''the Father'' of audio?


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post #2720 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
To save me from scrolling up several pages in the thread, can anyone please point me to the files that Arny offered (the keys files)?
Probably a sticky post should be put up top pointing to the most current version of the files. It might cut the confusion by 0.02%, which is perhaps detectable.
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post #2721 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
As I posted earlier, I did indeed mention this in my AES lecture, to which I provided a link. I can only assume that neither you nor Arny Krueger bothered to click on that link. But even if Ms. Case tried to imitate the phonograph, it doesn't affect at all the point I was making about perception, that if you don't know what to listen for, you won't necessarily perceive it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

In your talk, did you also discuss false positives? That if you 'listen for' something, you may well 'perceive' it, whether it's real or not?


'Wrong' answers in an ABX are one type of that phenomenon (except when the subject is simply guessing).
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post #2722 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Excluded middle argument with elements of denial added in apparently for fun and profit.
Hi Arny. Let's take the situation at hand. Can you please post the differential measurement that allowed us to tell the files apart and the ease with which it predicted that.

And explain how the same measurement can simultaneously predict the many who couldn't hear any difference.

Quote:
Some of our measurements can tell us: "Just about everybody can hear this" and we have other measurements that can tell us "Nobody is going to hear this, no way". Especially the second thing is reprehensible to many high end audio dupes.
I know as our mentor and human psychoanalysis machine, you can read all of those messages in the invisible ink of those graphs but we can't keep up with you Arny.

Let's review what got us the jingling key sequence. You said in the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Fortunately, the above speculations are not true. With complex music signals the limit of audiblity is more like 16 KHz due to masking, and that is more than plenty far enough away from 44.1 KHz with modern digital filters.
I asked you a few clarifying questions and this was your kind response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I did what I said in the previous post. I made recordings of live musicans in an exceedingly quiet and non-reverberent room @24/96 using 1/4" measurement mics that had strong content > 20 KHz, even 30 KHz.

I set up an ABX between the 24/96 files with a 16 KHz brickwall filter, and with full bandpass. I used speakers and amps with strong response > 30 KHz and put the listeners on axis of their supertweeters.

both [blind and non-blind]

The training sequence was files brick walled at lower frequencies such as 9 KHz, and working up in logical steps.

Yes. [the person performing the tests had his hearing tested to make sure they could hear above 16 Khz?]
As you know, that is not the outcome of us testing the same file. 16 Khz (32k sampling) was walk in the park for a number of us to tell apart. Having been able to also tell at CD's full response of 22 Khz, clearly the graphs you had read in this regard were faulty. And assertion of what is or is not audible just the same.

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One of the things that self labels people as being hopelessly irrational anti-science subjectivists is denial of simple, common sense facts such as shown above above about the correlation of measurements and audibility. Denial of science still seems to sell a lot of copies of high end audio ragazines and a certain amount of the over-priced equipment they hype.
I have no defense for the labels you are putting on me. I just beg your forgiveness for wasting your time responding to me.

I had no idea that there was such a strong correlation between measurements and audibility. Can you please explain then why we perform any DBTs? Should we close the chapter on listening tests and simply go by your interpretation?

Quote:
The water example is also highly flawed and therefore misleading and false. Again its anti-science subjectivist bias destroys its credibility.
Hey, it could be worse. I could have used a car analogy!

Nothing was wrong though about the original analogy of the situation in Naked and Afraid. The original file is the best copy, period. Just like the fact that the water on top of the waterfall is going to be cleaner than any water downstream.

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My late brother in law was a world-class public health expert. He told me that he could get a sample from a local water supply and predict how many work days per year was lost on the average resident due to water-borne diseases.
Your brother-in-law, may he rest in peace, was a smart fellow. Your water analogy though is wrong. I said that you can't take any one sample of water and tell if you and I are both going to get sick drinking it. It had nothing to do with "average resident" comment which indicates taking large samples and averaging them. I could easily lose less or more work days than his average.

The above is really the core misunderstanding here. Nothing about our discussions is meant to say what the "average" person will or will not here. Average person is not wasting time reading these threads. We care if anyone can hear these differences and if they do, our assertion that we can read graphs and tell something is not audible, is invalidated. Which is what we did with your key jingling file.

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post #2723 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:08 PM
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Comments removed by original poster see retractions in postings 2748 and 2749

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2724 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:09 PM
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I made what I hope will be a useful video for some people who might want a little help in determining what parts of these music files are the best to focus on:
AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: Take 2

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #2725 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Nothing about our discussions is meant to say what the "average" person will or will not here. Average person is not wasting time reading these threads.
Then why worry about the average person? Why keep posting and sharing "our" knowledge with those of "us" with three digit IQ's?

Many of "us" consider ourselves average and waste "our" time every day reading these threads. "We" look forward to the ~10am (EDT) wakeup from the Space Needle (It's actually a spaceship).
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post #2726 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:40 PM
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@Ratman,

Almost fell outta my chair I was LMAO ! Say .................wasn't he voted off the ship what happened.............................. Somebody get the chief of the boat .................with his side arm ?

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2727 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I made what I hope will be a useful video for some people who might want a little help in determining what parts of these music files are the best to focus on:
AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: Take 2
Nice job I watched it . Like I mentioned in the linked thread I will certainly play with the appropriate WAV files .
Kudo's

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2728 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Then why worry about the average person? Why keep posting and sharing "our" knowledge with those of "us" with three digit IQ's?

Many of "us" consider ourselves average and waste "our" time every day reading these threads. "We" look forward to the ~10am (EDT) wakeup from the Space Needle (It's actually a spaceship).
Rather unfortunately, Amir is right on this. Anyone who is posting or regularly visits this site is anything but average.

Real average people do not really care about music in general. Those are people who are easily satisfied listening to music on youtube (video with music and static image), which is no more than 96kbs, absolute bottom quality. Those are the ones who feel paying 10 bucks per month on Spotify is too expensive, and buying an normal CD album at 5 bucks is insanity.

With music industry people's relentless pursuit on file-sharing and internet music, they successfully incubated a generation of people who are completely disinterested in seeing music as valuable object.

Anyone who is reading this thread is niche of niche.
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post #2729 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
And then the dancers will do their dance to convince them they're right. I imagine some will point to this very thread!
They might! So be careful what you write....

Quote:
To wit: Is the Dancing Man from Madrona really now saying he routinely discerns 320 kbps MP3s from source?
I didn't say that. But I do OK. As a random challenge, I converted Arny's clip to MP3 at 320 kbps a few days ago and post the results in another thread on AVS:

=============
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/19 19:45:33

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling 16 44.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling 16 44_01.mp3

19:45:33 : Test started.
19:46:21 : 01/01 50.0%
19:46:35 : 02/02 25.0%
19:46:49 : 02/03 50.0%
19:47:03 : 03/04 31.3%
19:47:13 : 04/05 18.8%
19:47:27 : 05/06 10.9%
19:47:38 : 06/07 6.3%
19:47:46 : 07/08 3.5%
19:48:01 : 08/09 2.0%
19:48:19 : 09/10 1.1%
19:48:31 : 10/11 0.6%
19:48:45 : 11/12 0.3%
19:48:58 : 12/13 0.2%
19:49:11 : 13/14 0.1%
19:49:28 : 14/15 0.0%
19:49:52 : 15/16 0.0%
19:49:56 : Test finished.

----------

Total: 15/16 (0.0%)

And just now, ran one of the tracks from the 6 samples in Scott/Mark's music and converted that to MP3. Here are those results:

===============

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/31 15:18:41

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2.mp3
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2.wav

15:18:41 : Test started.
15:19:18 : 01/01 50.0%
15:19:30 : 01/02 75.0%
15:19:44 : 01/03 87.5%
15:20:35 : 02/04 68.8%
15:20:46 : 02/05 81.3%
15:21:39 : 03/06 65.6% <--- Difference found
15:21:47 : 04/07 50.0%
15:21:54 : 04/08 63.7% <--- Dog barked!
15:22:06 : 05/09 50.0%
15:22:19 : 06/10 37.7%
15:22:31 : 07/11 27.4%
15:22:44 : 08/12 19.4%
15:22:51 : 09/13 13.3%
15:22:58 : 10/14 9.0%
15:23:06 : 11/15 5.9%
15:23:14 : 12/16 3.8%
15:23:23 : 13/17 2.5%
15:23:33 : 14/18 1.5%
15:23:42 : 15/19 1.0%
15:23:54 : 16/20 0.6%
15:24:06 : 17/21 0.4%
15:24:15 : 18/22 0.2%
15:24:23 : 19/23 0.1%
15:24:34 : 20/24 0.1%
15:24:43 : 21/25 0.0%
15:24:52 : 22/26 0.0%
15:24:57 : Test finished.

----------

Total: 22/26 (0.0%)

As you see, the results could not be more compelling on me being able to tell 320 kbps apart from the source. And these are not tracks selected to be "codec killers." It is what folks have put forward in this forum for another reason.

So that folks don't stay upset at me, talking to you Chu, I saved the markers for the above track:

Start point: 3:11.4
End point: 3:11.8

Listen to the difference in high frequencies. Listen to whether one is more congested than the other (for the lack of a better word). Now you see why I don't try to explain the differences. English words are not easy fit for them. This is why you need to do your own listening and hear the difference first hand. No amount of telling you how to fish will teach you what it feels like to catch your first one.

Quote:
Wow. We've advanced audio science and psychoacoustics so very far, in such a short time.
No, nothing has changed if you actually study the science as opposed to relying on forum folklore as your only source of knowledge. Lest you think I can do your job by just reading and arguing about it online....

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post #2730 of 2920 Old 07-31-2014, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
Rather unfortunately, Amir is right on this. Anyone who is posting or regularly visits this site is anything but average.

Real average people do not really care about music in general. Those are people who are easily satisfied listening to music on youtube (video with music and static image), which is no more than 96kbs, absolute bottom quality. Those are the ones who feel paying 10 bucks per month on Spotify is too expensive, and buying an normal CD album at 5 bucks is insanity.

With music industry people's relentless pursuit on file-sharing and internet music, they successfully incubated a generation of people who are completely disinterested in seeing music as valuable object.

Anyone who is reading this thread is niche of niche.
EDITED /corrected by original poster see post 2740 for comment

There are no 96kbps uploads currently being accepted as standard quality uploads .By the way it's kbps not kbs
lots of 384kbps .AAC VBR stereo video uploads
on the tube these days some of them sound pretty good especially the pro ones ! It may be that 192kbps AAC VBR is maximum stereo audio playback based on the information you provided me in post 2735 . 192kbps AAC VBR *can often sound as good as 328 kbps CBR mp3 however.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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