Debate Thread: Scott's Hi-res Audio Test - Page 93 - AVS Forum
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post #2761 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 07:37 AM
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Finally spit out all those crow feathers ................... Yuck!

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #2762 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I was visiting a friend when JJ called. My friend had ripped some CDs to MP3 and one was playing when he answered the call. JJ correctly identified the bitrate the CD had been ripped at over the telephone (which itself uses lossy compression). Now JJ, of course, is intimately familiar with lossy compression artefacts, having devoted much of his working life to developing codecs. But I was still gobsmacked.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! And so did his wife! She was in the kitchen listening over the speakerphone!

C'mon. Cute story for a magazine though.
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post #2763 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
In any case your lecture did present a reasonable conclusion which is:

"Still, the point is not that those early audiophiles were hard of hearing or just plain dumb, but that, without prior experience of the phonograph, the failings we would now find so obvious just didn't fit into the acoustic model those listeners were constructing of Ms. Case's voice." -- John Atkinson
Thank you for agreeing with me, Mr. Krueger, about the importance of experience and learning when it comes to perception. I gave more examples in my lecture preprint than the Edison/Case event, BTW, as you should be aware if you actually read the piece, as you now claim you had done.

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
However, as we commonly see with people of shall I say a creative bent (not meant in a good way) truth was used as a cover for personal attacks on a despised group of people who disagree with subjectivism:

"Footnote 3: For a long time, I've felt that the difference between an "objectivist" and a "subjectivist" is that the latter has had, at one time in his or her life, a mentor who could show them what to listen for. Raymond [Cooke of KEF] was just one of the many from whom I learned what to listen for." -- John Atkinson
You are reading something into that footnote that no-one else has. The role of mentoring in audio perception is well-known. In fact, Sean Olive and Floyd Toole at Harman and Geoffrey Martin at B&O, all of whom have enormous experience in blind testing, have all said that you need trained listeners if the testing is to get consistent and reliable results.

An example from my own life: in the late 1970s, I was a regular participant as a listener in blind tests of amplifiers and loudspeakers organized by Martin Colloms. My ability as a listener benefited greatly from that experience - I remember after one blind test asking Martin Colloms about one of the speakers we had auditioned, which had something in the upper midrange that had bothered me. "That was cone cry," he explained, "the sound of a large-diameter paper cone breaking up because it had been crossed over too high in frequency." Once that had been shown me, I could listen out for it in other speakers, and do so to this day.

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I'll counter that with the assertion that the best way I know of to learn what to listen for involves an ABX comparator. That way you know that you are hearing a difference and not some will-o-the-wisp invention of your brain operating in wish-fulfillment mode.
But without any listener training an ABX test is of limited use when you are trying to determine audibility of a specific change. Formal testing protocols that you yourself have mentioned in this thread are clear on that matter. From ITU BS.1116-2: "3.1 Expert listeners
It is important that data from listening tests assessing small impairments in audio systems should come exclusively from subjects who have expertise in detecting these small impairments. The higher the quality reached by the systems to be tested, the more important it is to have expert listeners."


John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
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Last edited by stereoeditor; 08-01-2014 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Inevitable typos
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post #2764 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 08:30 AM
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Why don't you guys talk about something that is important?


How many of you have a German ancestry?


http://fortune.com/2014/07/31/battle...rgement-table/
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post #2765 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 10:00 AM
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Why don't you guys talk about something that is important?


How many of you have a German ancestry?


http://fortune.com/2014/07/31/battle...rgement-table/
Italian Swiss here (think salami )

herr cass. seen the Stabskapitänleutnant the Kapitänleutnanlat would like to see him jetzt something about some bratwurst for herr goebbels or something like that !

Say Palmer , you ever figure out your TV uses scene analysis (frame analysis look ahead ) not program guide metadata to set auto picture mode dynamic adjustments (call up algorithms) like I told ya (and the Sony people later corroborated ) b4 or you still believing in that program guide metadata picture fairy nonsense you were talking about ya all had all of us ROTFLMAO for days on that one still laugh when I think about it !

I see your commentary is still about as intelligent as a post and maybe a little kinky and vulgar now these days (judging by the link you posted ) what kind weirdness or maybe recreational chemical habits you into now ? ....... never mind I don't want to know !
You know I got you on permanent ignore right ? just so you know!

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #2766 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I was visiting a friend when JJ called. My friend had ripped some CDs to MP3 and one was playing when he answered the call. JJ correctly identified the bitrate the CD had been ripped at over the telephone (which itself uses lossy compression). Now JJ, of course, is intimately familiar with lossy compression artefacts, having devoted much of his working life to developing codecs. But I was still gobsmacked.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
When dealing with JJ, one has to learn the art of saying, "ah, yes."

I was at his house and he was showing me the speakers he had built. All of a sudden he would say, "you hear that?" I would say what. He would say, "that is XYZ distortion." I would say, "ah, yes." .

Speaking of JJ, he wrote this succinct post on WBF forum on characteristics of a good listening test:

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Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
Can you tell us exactly what would be the complete protocol and analysis criteria for the tests in this particular situation in your opinion?
That's a whole book in and of itself.

A short, and undoubtedly insufficient list (since I'm writing this off the cuff) would be:

1) listener training
2) quiet, single-listener situation, with equipment, acoustics, etc of appropriate quality
3) negative and positive controls, and stimulus repetition for evaluation of consistency
4) perfect time alignment and level alignment (either of those off by much at all will absolutely result in a positive result)
5) feedback during training and after each individual trial
6) consistent A and B stimuli, which the subject is permitted to know, and who can refresh their recollection at any time. This is also an element that can easily cause any test to be positive by mistake.
7) transientless, quiet switching between the signals, with extremely low latency. Switch transients can cause either lower sensitivity or unblind a test, depending on how they arise.
8) the ability to loop the test material under user control
9) of course the setup must be double-blind, ordering must be varied, etc. All standard test confusion issues must be satisfied.


That's just few, that's not even close to a full set, but just that much shows how it isn't easy to run a good test.
See the #1 is "listener training." How were Meyer and Moran testers trained? Well, they were not. Did they have positive and negative controls where we know what the answer should be? Well, they did not. Did they have feedback during each trial? I don't recall them saying they did. Did they have the ability to loop content? I am pretty sure they did not have anything remotely close to what we have in file based testing.

Yet, we put that test forward time and time again as "scientific proof" that hi-res audio doesn't sound better than CD.

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post #2767 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
When dealing with JJ, one has to learn the art of saying, "ah, yes."

I was at his house and he was showing me the speakers he had built. All of a sudden he would say, "you hear that?" I would say what. He would say, "that is XYZ distortion." I would say, "ah, yes." .
Good info!
Now we can add "ah, yes" to:
"it depends" and "Mr. false claim".
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post #2768 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 11:10 AM
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Good info!
Now we can add "ah, yes" to:
"it depends" and "Mr. false claim".
I knew a guy called JJ used to own the house across the street from mine B4 I bought this one last name was Brown we used to call him dr. Brown ( think Back to the Future dr Brown ) his garage was like doc Browns lab ,JJ was always building or fixing stiff up .
He had one of those huge old school TV satelitte dishes and all kinds of scanners + ham radio stuff he was always up to something with that stuff he shiowed me how to listen in on the old analog cordless phones back in the day with a Ham band comm receiver on vhf.

I had a boat anchor hammerland HQ170 thing had 21 tubes in it amazing the stuff folks say on the phone that thing would pick one up a couple of miles away ! You couldn't do that with a Radioshack rig that one was the real deal !
J.J. Brown passed his widow is still there cool guy kinda miss him sometimes retired military had an almost all expenses (except for your habits ) paid vacation on uncle sam in Southest Asia like a lot of us back then did then also ...he was smart as heck in a lot of areas .


Ya know I've heard stuff in speakers other people don't hear at all ofc I've burned out or blown enugh of them out over the years so I've heard all the usual sounds of driver compression or over extension so these guys might have a point about listener training so that's why I'm staying out that conversation .
You know humpty dumpty didn't fall off the wall right ?......................... somebody pushed him !
gotta go Obama's coming in the TV to lie some more ! Then congress gets to lie ! Now they are flying in Ebola patients
sorry they are yanks and all, still concerning they are bring them here though .Seen that Ebola plane ? wild

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #2769 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Say Palmer , you ever figure out your TV uses scene analysis (frame analysis look ahead ) not program guide metadata to set auto picture mode dynamic adjustments (call up algorithms) like I told ya (and the Sony people later corroborated ) b4 or you still believing in that program guide metadata picture fairy nonsense you were talking about ya all had all of us ROTFLMAO for days on that one still laugh when I think about it !

Please explain the type of scene analysis (frame analysis look ahead) that applies to the auto (music scene) mode? Do you think that there is special video information in a music based TV channel that can be applied to activate the auto (music scene) mode?

How about commercials?


Why does auto scene select not work on cable channels?
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post #2770 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Please explain the type of scene analysis (frame analysis look ahead) that applies to the auto (music scene) mode? Do you think that there is special video information in a music based TV channel that can be applied to activate the auto (music scene) mode?

How about commercials?


Why does auto scene select not work on cable channels?
Do your own research it's obvious have no clue how your TV works or how it works that was settled long ago!
Even the Sony people were laughing at you ! ha ha go re read the thread !

All you need to know is how to turn it off and on and change the channel and volume (about what you know now)
now behave and leave the room and go check on your habit so the adults can have a conversation !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #2771 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
You are reading something into that footnote that no-one else has.
Like many things you've said before John, you appear to be claiming knowledge that no thoughtful person would claim. In essence you are claiming the global ability to read minds. To make that more specific, you are claiming to have thoroughly read the mind of every living person on earth, and after examining every thought in every person's minds, you have not found anybody else who thought the meaning that I mentioned.

John, here's what you can reasonably say: No person has read that footnote and made you aware of the obvious and clear interpretation of that footnote.

I am far from the most insightful person in the world. Many others must have found the same clear meaning. I suspect that that all of the many people who found that thought were familiar enough with you to not see any value to appraising you of the situation. You'd deny it as you have here. Simple enough!
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post #2772 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
I was visiting a friend when JJ called. My friend had ripped some CDs to MP3 and one was playing when he answered the call. JJ correctly identified the bitrate the CD had been ripped at over the telephone (which itself uses lossy compression). Now JJ, of course, is intimately familiar with lossy compression artefacts, having devoted much of his working life to developing codecs. But I was still gobsmacked.
Good example of a common logical error. The error is assigning the most global possible meaning to a very limited set of data. IOW, finding the hype. No good scientist makes it. Ever.

Here's an alternative, equally if not more correct meaning of the same anecdote:

JJ was familiar with a certain audible artifact associated with a certain coder operating at a certain bitrate, which unlike a high percentage of other artifacts was actually obvious over a telephone line. He heard it. That allowed him to identify the bitrate of the MP3 over the phone.
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post #2773 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
See the #1 is "listener training." How were Meyer and Moran testers trained?
Wow, now people are making the same logical mistake in pairs, and in nearly adjacent posts:

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Well, they were not.
99.99% surely a false claim. You don't know, do you Amir? How would you know? Were you a little bird on their shoulders for their entire life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Did they have positive and negative controls where we know what the answer should be? Well, they did not.
False claim.

It's an ABX test. Q.E.D.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Did they have feedback during each trial? I don't recall them saying they did.

Amir's new rule: If a scientific paper doesn't explicitly say something happened, it didn't happen. There are a ton of scientific papers that don't say what the people writing the paper had for breakfast lunch, and dinner and so they were starving the whole time they did the experiment.

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Did they have the ability to loop content? I am pretty sure they did not have anything remotely close to what we have in file based testing.
Don't need to. A lot of players have some kind of phrase repeat feature. My old CDP 101 surely did.

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Yet, we put that test forward time and time again as "scientific proof" that hi-res audio doesn't sound better than CD.
If you don't like it Amir, then do better.
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post #2774 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
You are reading something into that footnote that no-one else has.
Like many things you've said before John, you appear to be claiming knowledge that no thoughtful person would claim. In essence you are claiming the global ability to read minds.
Thanks for making me smile, Mr. Krueger. Perhaps English is not your first language? :-)

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John, here's what you can reasonably say: No person has read that footnote and made you aware of the obvious and clear interpretation of that footnote.
Okay, here is the entire text of the footnote that so upset you, Mr. Krueger:

"Footnote 3: For a long time, I've felt that the difference between an "objectivist" and a "subjectivist" is that the latter has had, at one time in his or her life, a mentor who could show them what to listen for. Raymond [Cooke of KEF] was just one of the many from whom I learned what to listen for." -- John Atkinson

And here is your comment on what that footnote means:

"However, as we commonly see with people of shall I say a creative bent (not meant in a good way) truth was used as a cover for personal attacks on a despised group of people who disagree with subjectivism"

Please explain how what I wrote in that footnote equates to "personal attacks" and what words I used either in this footnote (or in the entire preprint of my lecture, if you wish) suggest that I "despise" people "who disagree with subjectivism."

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I am far from the most insightful person in the world.
At least you got that right, Mr. Krueger :-)

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post #2775 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 01:34 PM
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Please explain how what I wrote in that footnote equates to "personal attacks" and what words I used either in this footnote (or in the entire preprint of my lecture, if you wish) suggest that I "despise" people "who disagree with subjectivism."

"Footnote 3: For a long time, I've felt that the difference between an "objectivist" and a "subjectivist" is that the latter has had, at one time in his or her life, a mentor who could show them what to listen for. Raymond [Cooke of KEF] was just one of the many from whom I learned what to listen for." -- John Atkinson
If the difference between an "objectivist" and a "subjectivist" "...is that the latter has had, at one time in his or her life, a mentor who could show them what to listen for...", then the clear meaning is that the former (an objectivist) never had a mentor who could show them what to listen for.

Among my mentors are Jim Johnson, David Clark, Earl Geddes, and Stanley Lipshitz; objectivests if there ever were any. They believed in audible differences and on occasion taught me how to listen for them.

Therefore your highly touted Heyser lecture contains at least one fairly grievous false claim that impugns the character and skill of four, count them four AES Fellows.

Let the denial begin! ;-)
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post #2776 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 01:45 PM
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post #2777 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 01:47 PM
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...your highly touted Heyser lecture contains at least one fairly grievous false claim that impugns the character and skill of four, count them four AES Fellows.
I really think you are projecting meanings into my words that are simply not there, Mr. Krueger.

And it's Jim Johnston, not Johnson, BTW, if you're referring to JJ.

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post #2778 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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99.99% surely a false claim. You don't know, do you Amir? How would you know? Were you a little bird on their shoulders for their entire life?
No, it is pretty easy. All you have to do is read their paper. No mention of training or trained/expert listeners. Here it is in their own words:

"With the help of about 60 members of the Boston Audio
Society and many other interested parties, a series of
double-blind (A/B/X) listening tests were held over a period
of about a year. Many types of music and voice signals
were included in the sources, from classical (choral,
chamber, piano, orchestral) to jazz, pop, and rock music.
The subjects included men and women of widely varying
ages, acuities, and levels of musical and audio experience;
many were audio professionals or serious students of the art."


Nothing in there speaks to specific training such as what I have in finding artifacts that they were chasing. There is also no mention of training content for the listeners they did have.

And "many types of music" supposed to be all the qualifications needed for such a test? Not that any of them have actual high frequencies in them?

Quote:
False claim.

It's an ABX test. Q.E.D.
Really? You are saying just having an ABX box gives us positive and negative controls? How does an ABX box guard against me having the same input into the box instead of the two that were being compared? I would get a bunch of random guesses then, right? Is that why it is OK to not have controls?

A positive control where say, all the high frequencies above 10 Khz are taken out would have identified that problem. If the two cables are carrying the same signal, you would immediately know it from the first few testers not telling them apart. Or else, we would know they are unfit testers for high-res audio.

We use controls to catch mistakes. We use controls to weed out non-critical listeners. This is why they are used in medical field. We keep talking about that using that "science" in audio but in the next breath, assume there is no need because we have an ABX box?

You yourself in your key jingling test provided controls by going way down in sampling rate. Where was that in Meyer and Moran?

Quote:
Amir's new rule: If a scientific paper doesn't explicitly say something happened, it didn't happen. There are a ton of scientific papers that don't say what the people writing the paper had for breakfast lunch, and dinner and so they were starving the whole time they did the experiment.
No paper is "scientific" if it leaves out key aspects of doing a proper listening test as JJ lists. By your rule, we could also assume a test is blind even if it doesn't say so? It seems we have no standard for what constitutes a "scientific paper" if it agrees with our point of view. We are corrupt to the core that way.

Here is how you document tests "scientifically:" The Placebo Method, A Comparison of In Situ Subjective Evaluation Methods for Vehicles, AES paper, Authors: House, Neal; Shively, Roger
Affiliation: Harman Motive Inc., Martinsville, USA

1.1 Listeners, Training and Scales

Eight trained listeners with known and acceptable hearing acuity and listening experience were
used for this study [5,7,9]. The listeners have had experience evaluating vehicle sound systems
using the blind and sighted methods mentioned above. The listeners have successfully completed
“ear training and preference testing ” exercises [5,6] and were above a 95% accuracy rating with
less than 0.5 variance for identifying the correct response.


The listeners were trained to rank and order their judgements using a “fidelity level scale” which
is an interval scale ranging from O-10. Generally, when ranking “high end” vehicle audio
systems with this method, there tends to be some scale compression as most of the rankings occur
in the 5.0-8.0 range. An example of the scale; with verbal attributes is shown in Table 1. This
scale is somewhat similar to the IEC 268-13 interval scale [lo].

All listeners were required to “recalibrate” themselves by completing the listening training and
fidelity scale testing prior to the vehicle evaluations.
An anchor [control] system was available to the
listeners throughout the study. The listeners were given explicit instructions about the listening
and system calibration procedures.
[/quote]

This is how it is done by professionals in the industry. What we have in Meyer and Moran is what hobbyist do without any of those qualifications. And we have other hobbyists running around forums talking about "scientific method" while turning a blind eye on the most basics of performing such tests properly.

Quote:
Don't need to. A lot of players have some kind of phrase repeat feature. My old CDP 101 surely did.
And have you tried to program it? I have. It is a pain in the neck to mark a specific segment that may be as short as half a second. It is nearly useless for this type of testing. This is beside the fact that nothing has been said about their player having such a feature and used in the testing.

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If you don't like it Amir, then do better.
I did. I passed your test. I passed Scott/Mark's test. I passed Ethan's test. Get me any of the people in the Boston Audio Society and let's see how they do.

Honestly how can we with straight face act so biased Arny? You know the merits of what I am talking about. If the outcome was positive, you would have harped on them until end of universe. But since you like the outcome, all is well?

Please let me know if we could make our reputation any worse Arny. Heaven knows every time I think we have sunk as low as we can sink, we manage to take it down even further. "Scientific paper" doesn't have to say it used controls, trained listeners, etc.? Unbelievable.
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post #2779 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:21 PM
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Nevermind.

MP3

Retired Old JJ | James D. Johnston

Soundfields Acoustics <=> Human Hearing

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2780 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:23 PM
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I sent a PM to JJ on another Pro forum as his name seems to be dropped here a lot. He has been very honest and enlightening in the knowledge he has shared in the past and helped dispel a lot of myths to audio and the so called high end which is a lot more than I can say for these sad discussions that always go on.
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post #2781 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I cannot recall what JJ stands for (who's the man?), please forgive me.
No worries Bob. Not everyone knows him. JJ is Jim Johnston. He is one of the luminaries in the field of audio and perceptual processing. He was an AT&T Bell Labs fellow. After a failed attempt by AT&T to create its own music format and closing doors, I was fortunate enough to recruit JJ to come and be an audio architect in my team at Microsoft. He led the effort to throw out the awful audio stack in Windows XP and replace it with a far improved one in Windows Vista on.

JJ is an objectivists and for that reason, folks commonly name drop his name as to gain credibility. The problem is, if they sat in front of JJ, they wouldn't be able to follow the first sentence let alone what follows! JJ speaks in a very technical language including math and signal processing and at all time assumes the listener/reader also does. If you don't get near his level of knowledge, you have no prayer of understanding what he says. So I have to chuckle when I read comments like what Arny just wrote about him being his mentor. It is like an average Joe saying the Pope is his mentor when it comes to Christianity!

I am sure Arny likes JJ because you could not have a heavier hammer than JJ when it comes to subjective sighted tests and such. I suspect the affection is not bi-directional though as JJ has no patience for people who don't understand the math and signal processing.

As a fun fact, JJ has a turntable to play his good sized library of LPs that he cannot get on CD.

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post #2782 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:38 PM
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Amir, John, anyone; can trained listeners, audio scientists be influenced by their own training listening sessions, and develop general characterizations applying to certain groups of people except for the general auditory public @ large? Is there more yet to be explored and understood and analysed in deeper profundity?

Can we be affected by our own misconceptions and preconceptions when regarding the effects of sounds on the human hearing?

What if higher digital audio resolution sounded different than lower audio resolution and that it was determined the superiority of one over the other? ...Like digital over analog for example?

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2783 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post

And it's Jim Johnston, not Johnson, BTW, if you're referring to JJ.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Jim Johnson

James D. (jj) Johnston

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2784 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
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No worries Bob. Not everyone knows him. JJ is Jim Johnston. He is one of the luminaries in the field of audio and perceptual processing. He was an AT&T Bell Labs fellow. After a failed attempt by AT&T to create its own music format and closing doors, I was fortunate enough to recruit JJ to come and be an audio architect in my team at Microsoft. He led the effort to throw out the awful audio stack in Windows XP and replace it with a far improved one in Windows Vista on.

JJ is an objectivists and for that reason, folks commonly name drop his name as to gain credibility. The problem is, if they sat in front of JJ, they wouldn't be able to follow the first sentence let alone what follows! JJ speaks in a very technical language including math and signal processing and at all time assumes the listener/reader also does. If you don't get near his level of knowledge, you have no prayer of understanding what he says. So I have to chuckle when I read comments like what Arny just wrote about him being his mentor. It is like an average Joe saying the Pope is his mentor when it comes to Christianity!

I am sure Arny likes JJ because you could not have a heavier hammer than JJ when it comes to subjective sighted tests and such. I suspect the affection is not bi-directional though as JJ has no patience for people who don't understand the math and signal processing.

As a fun fact, JJ has a turntable to play his good sized library of LPs that he cannot get on CD.
Jim, or James?

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2785 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 807recordings View Post
I sent a PM to JJ on another Pro forum as his name seems to be dropped here a lot. He has been very honest and enlightening in the knowledge he has shared in the past and helped dispel a lot of myths to audio and the so called high end which is a lot more than I can say for these sad discussions that always go on.
I am in pain. I am extremely disappointed by the judgement some people have made on others.
I travel from audio websites to other audio sites and I witness a lot of pain and injustice and misconceptions and barriers and false concepts and pretexts and stubbornness and personal hatred and revenge and superiority complexes and final arbitration and big egos and very high snobbish attitudes and too much seriousness and not enough music relaxation and not enough respect towards others and and and ... I am so fed up sometimes..

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2786 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I am in pain. I am extremely disappointed by the judgement some people have made on others.
I travel from audio websites to other audio sites and I witness a lot of pain and injustice and misconceptions and barriers and false concepts and pretexts and stubbornness and personal hatred and revenge and superiority complexes and final arbitration and big egos and very high snobbish attitudes and too much seriousness and not enough music relaxation and not enough respect towards others and and and ... I am so fed up sometimes..
I hear you, but believe me going from a career as a network engineer who worked on the higher level of technology, down to a software support manager here in Europe (for a great company) where our software is used by mastering engineers as their main staple it can be disheartening. The propagation of myths, stereo types, lack of scientific measurements, well at the same time being propagated as fact can be soul tiring. Of course it can work the other way also where I have seen so called elites blatantly ignore observations with out investigation to help understand what was observed.

Works both ways but I am still a firm believer if there is differences they can be measured and understood.
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post #2787 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 03:29 PM
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Jim Johnson

James D. (jj) Johnston

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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Not Jim or James or whomever.... but this may work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoYsfbq3vMc


In audio (hi-res) as in real life (human, people) it is important to make clear distinctions,
without misinterpreting our mistaken calculations and wrong judgement..

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2788 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 03:35 PM
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I hear you, but believe me going from a career as a network engineer who worked on the higher level of technology, down to a software support manager here in Europe (for a great company) where our software is used by mastering engineers as their main staple it can be disheartening. The propagation of myths, stereo types, lack of scientific measurements, well at the same time being propagated as fact can be soul tiring. Of course it can work the other way also where I have seen so called elites blatantly ignore observations with out investigation to help understand what was observed.
There, I won't go. ...The encyclopedia of my life. ...Of our humanity.

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Originally Posted by Recordings (807)
Works both ways but I am still a firm believer if there is differences they can be measured and understood.
There r' differences in everything.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2789 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Jim, or James?
Neither. We always call him JJ, on or off the forums.

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post #2790 of 2920 Old 08-01-2014, 03:54 PM
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I was a dealer for all three of the SACD players Meyer and Moran used so I know them well. I know for a fact all three had a>b phrase repeat functions which the listener could engage at will from their seated position, via remote. On two of the machines, a SonyES and the Yamaha they say they used predominantly, this function even has its own dedicated remote button making it very easy to access. On the third machine, a Pioneer which I also own, you need to negotiate to the correct menu screen first to get there, but once there it operates quite easily.

BTW, I don't know them well, however I have met both of these fine gentleman, one only passingly at a BAS meeting I co-attended.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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