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-   -   Why does Audyssey Xt32 setup want my subwoofer so low? (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1534814-why-does-audyssey-xt32-setup-want-my-subwoofer-so-low.html)

myriadcorp 06-07-2014 11:31 AM

Whenever I run my XT32 setup I have to turn the gain on my sub nearly off. It sounds great for movies but when I turn on music the sub barely makes noise. I have to manually turn the gain up to get some bass. Can anyone help me out explaining why this is happening from the XT32 setup? Thanks

FMW 06-07-2014 04:41 PM

The bass in the music you play is not as loud as movie LFE. The software puts the sub level where it should be for movie reproduction. If you like it to be different, help yourself. I generally turn my sub down a hair from what the software does. I don't want my music to sound like a teenager at a stop light with a supwoofer in his trunk. I just like a little support for the main speakers. If prefer it turned up a little then do that. There are rules of thumb but nobody is going to arrest you for adjusting things to your preference.

primetimeguy 06-07-2014 04:49 PM

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.

myriadcorp 06-07-2014 07:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

RayDunzl 06-07-2014 07:50 PM

Take a look at what instruments can go below 40hz.

https://www.google.com/search?q=frequency+range+of+instruments

Are you listening to them?

Does the composition make use of their lower range?

primetimeguy 06-07-2014 08:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?
Try raising the crossover to 80hz. What speakers are they?

rcohen 06-07-2014 08:29 PM

I agree - try the crossover at 80hz, or whatever sounds best to you. Audyssey's recommended crossover points don't seem to work well.

There's nothing wrong with preferring different settings for movies and music or manually turning up the bass to your taste.

myriadcorp 06-07-2014 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Try raising the crossover to 80hz. What speakers are they?

I had Klipsch RF-35's and I just replaced them with RF-7 II's. Maybe I need to learn more about Audyssey. I followed the directions on setting up my sub. If I don't manually turn up my subs gain it sounds like I am listening to speakers with no low end bass. It's crazy having a massive SVS sub and barely feel the woofer moving with the volume up to 82 Ref THX levels. From now on I will just turn up the gain when I listen to music. I am curious how everyone has their sub setup.

Zen Traveler 06-08-2014 06:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

If you ran Audssyey correctly this is what I would do: 1) Make sure the speakers are set to Small (My Denon recognized my RF-7s as Large) 2) With that AVR I would raise the crossover to 80 Hz or possibly lower to 60 Hz, and make sure your other speakers have a crossover at no lower than 80 Hz. 3) I am only on my first cup of coffee but think there is a setting in the GUI where you need to make an adjustment if you want the subwoofer on in 2 channel.

{Note: If your RF-7s are set as Large then you won't be getting redirected material to the subwoofer...If you have your speakers as Small already, then by raising the crossover from 40 Hz to 80 Hz should get your subwoofer hitting those lower notes and freeing up some Headroom in your AVR for the other speakers.}

EDIT: Fwiw, here is a thread I started for Klipsch Owners and Audyssey: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1514970/klipsch-speakers-and-audyssey-setup-discussion

craig john 06-08-2014 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Whenever I run my XT32 setup I have to turn the gain on my sub nearly off. It sounds great for movies but when I turn on music the sub barely makes noise. I have to manually turn the gain up to get some bass. Can anyone help me out explaining why this is happening from the XT32 setup? Thanks
Audyssey sets the bass so that it is sometimes *perceived* as lower than the non-Audyssey response, but it is, in reality, just "flat." Here is what Audyssey did to my response:





Note how much lower the overall level is post-Audyssey. This because Audyssey's primary focus is to cut the peaks. In doing so, it decreases the overall level, but it does get the response back to flat, (which means all frequencies are output at the same overall level.) The result is that, when content is played back at the level it was recorded, it will sound in proper balance. It's important to note that this only occurs, when the content is played back at the same level it was recorded.

When it is played back below the level it was recorded, it will sound bass shy. This is due to the normal human hearing sensitivities at low frequencies. It takes higher levels of low frequencies for humans to *perceive* sounds at the same levels as mid's and high frequencies. Fletcher-Munson described these sensitivities years ago and published charts that show human hearing perception by frequency. These have been updated through further research, and are shown below:





Audyssey has done their own research on these sensitivities and determined their own curves, and they have instituted as set of offsetting curves that compensate for these decreased sensitivities at lower volume levels. Their system is called "Dynamic EQ", and it is used to increase the SPL of lower frequencies to compensate for human hearing sensitivities. Here is a measurements of the effect of Dynamic EQ at different Master Volume Control, (MVC), settings:



You can see that, as the MVC is lowered, the bass output increases, and the more it is lowered, the more the bass increases relative to the midrange and treble. If you are listening at an MVC setting of -10 or -20, and your receiver has Dynamic EQ, you'll want to engage it to restore the bass that is perceptually missing.

Turning up the subwoofer trim is NOT the same thing. Raising the trim "shelves" the bass up below your crossover. It is not rising bass by decreasing frequency, just a fixed boost at all frequencies below the crossover.

Craig

myriadcorp 06-08-2014 05:53 PM

Think I fixed the problem. I did audyssey test starting with my gain at 12 o'clock. I kept adjusting until it set my sub between +12 to -12. Eventually at the 9 o'clock position it set my sub at -8. From there I ran the entire setup and set all my speakers to 80hz THX. This helped. I ran some test and manually bumped my sub to -4 for more bass or maybe it was +4 cannot remember. When playing music I changed audyssey to music from movie and selected music optimization. My sub was playing normally and everything sounded much better. Before the sub was no doing anything. I could put my fingers on the woofer edge and it was barely moving at 82 THX volume. Now its moving again and music sounds like music. That problem really made my speakers sound terrible. They sounded like all highs with no lows. Now they sound great.

DMark1 06-09-2014 08:42 AM

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.

myriadcorp 06-10-2014 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.

Yeah I read that. After I did some research it seemed like many who are having the same problem I did are using the same Onkyo 818 AVR. It may be a problem with the Onkyo. I turned the volume up from nothing until 82+ and the bass didn't move on my SVS Sub. All I have to do now is turn audyssey to music and music optimization on when I listen to Stereo. It sounds much better.

nexxest 07-03-2014 01:19 AM

If Audyssey sets your sub to -8, keep it there for a week. And listen. You may start liking it.

You see, most manufacturers boost the bass to make music sound better. I had a friend over, he asked where is the bass. I think he has never heard FLAT response before.

http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/45/500x1000...02_040104.jpeg

Anyway, I run my sub "hot" by 3-5 dB. 12dB will probably sound unnatural.

markus767 07-03-2014 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myriadcorp (Post 24807698)
Think I fixed the problem.

I don't think so. Did you read craig john's post? Let Audyssey do its thing and switch on Dynamic EQ. You can adjust bass with the Reference Level Offset setting later on.

commsysman 07-04-2014 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myriadcorp (Post 24804882)
Quote:Originally Posted by primetimeguy http://www.avsforum.com/img/forum/go_quote.gif

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.


Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?


40 hz is too low a setting; something between 50 and 60 hz is probably what you want, unless your main speakers have 10-inch or larger drivers. Experiment with some music that has low bass and tune the setting for the clearest bass.

Zen Traveler 07-05-2014 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commsysman (Post 25483882)
40 hz is too low a setting; something between 50 and 60 hz is probably what you want, unless your main speakers have 10-inch or larger drivers....

I agree and use a 60 Hz crossover on my RF-7s, but fwiw, they along with the OPs RF-7II have dual 10" LF drivers.

Tonesoul 07-06-2014 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myriadcorp (Post 24816270)
Quote:Originally Posted by DMark1 http://www.avsforum.com/img/forum/go_quote.gif

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.


Yeah I read that. After I did some research it seemed like many who are having the same problem I did are using the same Onkyo 818 AVR. It may be a problem with the Onkyo. I turned the volume up from nothing until 82+ and the bass didn't move on my SVS Sub. All I have to do now is turn audyssey to music and music optimization on when I listen to Stereo. It sounds much better.

Where is the music optimization option? And when you say music setting, do you mean the music option on the remote?

Thanks!


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