Why does Audyssey Xt32 setup want my subwoofer so low? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 1 Post By craig john
  • 1 Post By DMark1
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
myriadcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Whenever I run my XT32 setup I have to turn the gain on my sub nearly off. It sounds great for movies but when I turn on music the sub barely makes noise. I have to manually turn the gain up to get some bass. Can anyone help me out explaining why this is happening from the XT32 setup? Thanks

myriadcorp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 04:41 PM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 697
The bass in the music you play is not as loud as movie LFE. The software puts the sub level where it should be for movie reproduction. If you like it to be different, help yourself. I generally turn my sub down a hair from what the software does. I don't want my music to sound like a teenager at a stop light with a supwoofer in his trunk. I just like a little support for the main speakers. If prefer it turned up a little then do that. There are rules of thumb but nobody is going to arrest you for adjusting things to your preference.
FMW is online now  
post #3 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.
primetimeguy is online now  
post #4 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
myriadcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

myriadcorp is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 07:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
RayDunzl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 677
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Take a look at what instruments can go below 40hz.

https://www.google.com/search?q=frequency+range+of+instruments

Are you listening to them?

Does the composition make use of their lower range?

I'll be back later...


equitech 1.5RQ > digits > miniDSP > behringer > benchmark > krell pre and monoblocks > reQuest
RayDunzl is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 08:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?
Try raising the crossover to 80hz. What speakers are they?
primetimeguy is online now  
post #7 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 08:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Liked: 59
I agree - try the crossover at 80hz, or whatever sounds best to you. Audyssey's recommended crossover points don't seem to work well.

There's nothing wrong with preferring different settings for movies and music or manually turning up the bass to your taste.
rcohen is online now  
post #8 of 18 Old 06-07-2014, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
myriadcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Try raising the crossover to 80hz. What speakers are they?

I had Klipsch RF-35's and I just replaced them with RF-7 II's. Maybe I need to learn more about Audyssey. I followed the directions on setting up my sub. If I don't manually turn up my subs gain it sounds like I am listening to speakers with no low end bass. It's crazy having a massive SVS sub and barely feel the woofer moving with the volume up to 82 Ref THX levels. From now on I will just turn up the gain when I listen to music. I am curious how everyone has their sub setup.

myriadcorp is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 06-08-2014, 06:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

If you ran Audssyey correctly this is what I would do: 1) Make sure the speakers are set to Small (My Denon recognized my RF-7s as Large) 2) With that AVR I would raise the crossover to 80 Hz or possibly lower to 60 Hz, and make sure your other speakers have a crossover at no lower than 80 Hz. 3) I am only on my first cup of coffee but think there is a setting in the GUI where you need to make an adjustment if you want the subwoofer on in 2 channel.

{Note: If your RF-7s are set as Large then you won't be getting redirected material to the subwoofer...If you have your speakers as Small already, then by raising the crossover from 40 Hz to 80 Hz should get your subwoofer hitting those lower notes and freeing up some Headroom in your AVR for the other speakers.}

EDIT: Fwiw, here is a thread I started for Klipsch Owners and Audyssey: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1514970/klipsch-speakers-and-audyssey-setup-discussion
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 06-08-2014, 07:36 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Whenever I run my XT32 setup I have to turn the gain on my sub nearly off. It sounds great for movies but when I turn on music the sub barely makes noise. I have to manually turn the gain up to get some bass. Can anyone help me out explaining why this is happening from the XT32 setup? Thanks
Audyssey sets the bass so that it is sometimes *perceived* as lower than the non-Audyssey response, but it is, in reality, just "flat." Here is what Audyssey did to my response:





Note how much lower the overall level is post-Audyssey. This because Audyssey's primary focus is to cut the peaks. In doing so, it decreases the overall level, but it does get the response back to flat, (which means all frequencies are output at the same overall level.) The result is that, when content is played back at the level it was recorded, it will sound in proper balance. It's important to note that this only occurs, when the content is played back at the same level it was recorded.

When it is played back below the level it was recorded, it will sound bass shy. This is due to the normal human hearing sensitivities at low frequencies. It takes higher levels of low frequencies for humans to *perceive* sounds at the same levels as mid's and high frequencies. Fletcher-Munson described these sensitivities years ago and published charts that show human hearing perception by frequency. These have been updated through further research, and are shown below:





Audyssey has done their own research on these sensitivities and determined their own curves, and they have instituted as set of offsetting curves that compensate for these decreased sensitivities at lower volume levels. Their system is called "Dynamic EQ", and it is used to increase the SPL of lower frequencies to compensate for human hearing sensitivities. Here is a measurements of the effect of Dynamic EQ at different Master Volume Control, (MVC), settings:



You can see that, as the MVC is lowered, the bass output increases, and the more it is lowered, the more the bass increases relative to the midrange and treble. If you are listening at an MVC setting of -10 or -20, and your receiver has Dynamic EQ, you'll want to engage it to restore the bass that is perceptually missing.

Turning up the subwoofer trim is NOT the same thing. Raising the trim "shelves" the bass up below your crossover. It is not rising bass by decreasing frequency, just a fixed boost at all frequencies below the crossover.

Craig
Greenwood Ave likes this.

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 06-08-2014, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
myriadcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Think I fixed the problem. I did audyssey test starting with my gain at 12 o'clock. I kept adjusting until it set my sub between +12 to -12. Eventually at the 9 o'clock position it set my sub at -8. From there I ran the entire setup and set all my speakers to 80hz THX. This helped. I ran some test and manually bumped my sub to -4 for more bass or maybe it was +4 cannot remember. When playing music I changed audyssey to music from movie and selected music optimization. My sub was playing normally and everything sounded much better. Before the sub was no doing anything. I could put my fingers on the woofer edge and it was barely moving at 82 THX volume. Now its moving again and music sounds like music. That problem really made my speakers sound terrible. They sounded like all highs with no lows. Now they sound great.

myriadcorp is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 06-09-2014, 08:42 AM
Senior Member
 
DMark1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.
Greenwood Ave likes this.

Fine Music, Movies, Wine, and Friends - A Life Well Lived!
DMark1 is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 06-10-2014, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
myriadcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.

Yeah I read that. After I did some research it seemed like many who are having the same problem I did are using the same Onkyo 818 AVR. It may be a problem with the Onkyo. I turned the volume up from nothing until 82+ and the bass didn't move on my SVS Sub. All I have to do now is turn audyssey to music and music optimization on when I listen to Stereo. It sounds much better.

myriadcorp is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 07-03-2014, 01:19 AM
Member
 
nexxest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 26
If Audyssey sets your sub to -8, keep it there for a week. And listen. You may start liking it.

You see, most manufacturers boost the bass to make music sound better. I had a friend over, he asked where is the bass. I think he has never heard FLAT response before.



Anyway, I run my sub "hot" by 3-5 dB. 12dB will probably sound unnatural.

nexxest is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 07-03-2014, 02:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 595 Post(s)
Liked: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post
Think I fixed the problem.
I don't think so. Did you read craig john's post? Let Audyssey do its thing and switch on Dynamic EQ. You can adjust bass with the Reference Level Offset setting later on.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is online now  
post #16 of 18 Old 07-04-2014, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
commsysman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,254
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by primetimeguy 

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.


Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

40 hz is too low a setting; something between 50 and 60 hz is probably what you want, unless your main speakers have 10-inch or larger drivers. Experiment with some music that has low bass and tune the setting for the clearest bass.
commsysman is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 07-05-2014, 02:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
40 hz is too low a setting; something between 50 and 60 hz is probably what you want, unless your main speakers have 10-inch or larger drivers....
I agree and use a 60 Hz crossover on my RF-7s, but fwiw, they along with the OPs RF-7II have dual 10" LF drivers.
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 07-06-2014, 03:14 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by DMark1 

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.


Yeah I read that. After I did some research it seemed like many who are having the same problem I did are using the same Onkyo 818 AVR. It may be a problem with the Onkyo. I turned the volume up from nothing until 82+ and the bass didn't move on my SVS Sub. All I have to do now is turn audyssey to music and music optimization on when I listen to Stereo. It sounds much better.
Where is the music optimization option? And when you say music setting, do you mean the music option on the remote?

Thanks!
Tonesoul is online now  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off