Why does Audyssey Xt32 setup want my subwoofer so low? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Whenever I run my XT32 setup I have to turn the gain on my sub nearly off. It sounds great for movies but when I turn on music the sub barely makes noise. I have to manually turn the gain up to get some bass. Can anyone help me out explaining why this is happening from the XT32 setup? Thanks

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post #2 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 05:41 PM
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The bass in the music you play is not as loud as movie LFE. The software puts the sub level where it should be for movie reproduction. If you like it to be different, help yourself. I generally turn my sub down a hair from what the software does. I don't want my music to sound like a teenager at a stop light with a supwoofer in his trunk. I just like a little support for the main speakers. If prefer it turned up a little then do that. There are rules of thumb but nobody is going to arrest you for adjusting things to your preference.
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post #3 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 05:49 PM
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Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.
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post #4 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

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post #5 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 08:50 PM
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Take a look at what instruments can go below 40hz.

https://www.google.com/search?q=frequency+range+of+instruments

Are you listening to them?

Does the composition make use of their lower range?

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post #6 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?
Try raising the crossover to 80hz. What speakers are they?
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post #7 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 09:29 PM
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I agree - try the crossover at 80hz, or whatever sounds best to you. Audyssey's recommended crossover points don't seem to work well.

There's nothing wrong with preferring different settings for movies and music or manually turning up the bass to your taste.
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post #8 of 20 Old 06-07-2014, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Try raising the crossover to 80hz. What speakers are they?

I had Klipsch RF-35's and I just replaced them with RF-7 II's. Maybe I need to learn more about Audyssey. I followed the directions on setting up my sub. If I don't manually turn up my subs gain it sounds like I am listening to speakers with no low end bass. It's crazy having a massive SVS sub and barely feel the woofer moving with the volume up to 82 Ref THX levels. From now on I will just turn up the gain when I listen to music. I am curious how everyone has their sub setup.

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post #9 of 20 Old 06-08-2014, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

If you ran Audssyey correctly this is what I would do: 1) Make sure the speakers are set to Small (My Denon recognized my RF-7s as Large) 2) With that AVR I would raise the crossover to 80 Hz or possibly lower to 60 Hz, and make sure your other speakers have a crossover at no lower than 80 Hz. 3) I am only on my first cup of coffee but think there is a setting in the GUI where you need to make an adjustment if you want the subwoofer on in 2 channel.

{Note: If your RF-7s are set as Large then you won't be getting redirected material to the subwoofer...If you have your speakers as Small already, then by raising the crossover from 40 Hz to 80 Hz should get your subwoofer hitting those lower notes and freeing up some Headroom in your AVR for the other speakers.}

EDIT: Fwiw, here is a thread I started for Klipsch Owners and Audyssey: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1514970/klipsch-speakers-and-audyssey-setup-discussion
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post #10 of 20 Old 06-08-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post

Whenever I run my XT32 setup I have to turn the gain on my sub nearly off. It sounds great for movies but when I turn on music the sub barely makes noise. I have to manually turn the gain up to get some bass. Can anyone help me out explaining why this is happening from the XT32 setup? Thanks
Audyssey sets the bass so that it is sometimes *perceived* as lower than the non-Audyssey response, but it is, in reality, just "flat." Here is what Audyssey did to my response:





Note how much lower the overall level is post-Audyssey. This because Audyssey's primary focus is to cut the peaks. In doing so, it decreases the overall level, but it does get the response back to flat, (which means all frequencies are output at the same overall level.) The result is that, when content is played back at the level it was recorded, it will sound in proper balance. It's important to note that this only occurs, when the content is played back at the same level it was recorded.

When it is played back below the level it was recorded, it will sound bass shy. This is due to the normal human hearing sensitivities at low frequencies. It takes higher levels of low frequencies for humans to *perceive* sounds at the same levels as mid's and high frequencies. Fletcher-Munson described these sensitivities years ago and published charts that show human hearing perception by frequency. These have been updated through further research, and are shown below:





Audyssey has done their own research on these sensitivities and determined their own curves, and they have instituted as set of offsetting curves that compensate for these decreased sensitivities at lower volume levels. Their system is called "Dynamic EQ", and it is used to increase the SPL of lower frequencies to compensate for human hearing sensitivities. Here is a measurements of the effect of Dynamic EQ at different Master Volume Control, (MVC), settings:



You can see that, as the MVC is lowered, the bass output increases, and the more it is lowered, the more the bass increases relative to the midrange and treble. If you are listening at an MVC setting of -10 or -20, and your receiver has Dynamic EQ, you'll want to engage it to restore the bass that is perceptually missing.

Turning up the subwoofer trim is NOT the same thing. Raising the trim "shelves" the bass up below your crossover. It is not rising bass by decreasing frequency, just a fixed boost at all frequencies below the crossover.

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post #11 of 20 Old 06-08-2014, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Think I fixed the problem. I did audyssey test starting with my gain at 12 o'clock. I kept adjusting until it set my sub between +12 to -12. Eventually at the 9 o'clock position it set my sub at -8. From there I ran the entire setup and set all my speakers to 80hz THX. This helped. I ran some test and manually bumped my sub to -4 for more bass or maybe it was +4 cannot remember. When playing music I changed audyssey to music from movie and selected music optimization. My sub was playing normally and everything sounded much better. Before the sub was no doing anything. I could put my fingers on the woofer edge and it was barely moving at 82 THX volume. Now its moving again and music sounds like music. That problem really made my speakers sound terrible. They sounded like all highs with no lows. Now they sound great.

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post #12 of 20 Old 06-09-2014, 09:42 AM
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It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.
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post #13 of 20 Old 06-10-2014, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.

Yeah I read that. After I did some research it seemed like many who are having the same problem I did are using the same Onkyo 818 AVR. It may be a problem with the Onkyo. I turned the volume up from nothing until 82+ and the bass didn't move on my SVS Sub. All I have to do now is turn audyssey to music and music optimization on when I listen to Stereo. It sounds much better.

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post #14 of 20 Old 07-03-2014, 02:19 AM
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If Audyssey sets your sub to -8, keep it there for a week. And listen. You may start liking it.

You see, most manufacturers boost the bass to make music sound better. I had a friend over, he asked where is the bass. I think he has never heard FLAT response before.



Anyway, I run my sub "hot" by 3-5 dB. 12dB will probably sound unnatural.

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post #15 of 20 Old 07-03-2014, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post
Think I fixed the problem.
I don't think so. Did you read craig john's post? Let Audyssey do its thing and switch on Dynamic EQ. You can adjust bass with the Reference Level Offset setting later on.

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post #16 of 20 Old 07-04-2014, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by primetimeguy 

Also, check the crossover setting for your speakers. I'm guessing they are set low and therefore with two channel music you aren't getting much from the sub.


Yes when I have it in stereo the sub is hardly making any movement even at high volume. The crossover is 40 on my main L & R speakers. Is it normal to turn my gain from 25% to 75% to get some low end sound in stereo mode?

40 hz is too low a setting; something between 50 and 60 hz is probably what you want, unless your main speakers have 10-inch or larger drivers. Experiment with some music that has low bass and tune the setting for the clearest bass.
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post #17 of 20 Old 07-05-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
40 hz is too low a setting; something between 50 and 60 hz is probably what you want, unless your main speakers have 10-inch or larger drivers....
I agree and use a 60 Hz crossover on my RF-7s, but fwiw, they along with the OPs RF-7II have dual 10" LF drivers.
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post #18 of 20 Old 07-06-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myriadcorp View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by DMark1 

It sounds to me like you are just fooling around with settings until it "sounds good" to you. That is fine if you want to continually adjust settings, but your system will not reproduce what the director or artist intended with that approach. If you want to hear music and movies as intended, and without constant adjustments to settings, please go back and reread what craigjohn said so you understand what is happening in your system and more importantly, why it is happening. He is exactly correct.


Yeah I read that. After I did some research it seemed like many who are having the same problem I did are using the same Onkyo 818 AVR. It may be a problem with the Onkyo. I turned the volume up from nothing until 82+ and the bass didn't move on my SVS Sub. All I have to do now is turn audyssey to music and music optimization on when I listen to Stereo. It sounds much better.
Where is the music optimization option? And when you say music setting, do you mean the music option on the remote?

Thanks!
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I realize this is a very old thread, but when you google xt32 and subwoofer it comes here, so I thought I might post just in case someone arrives here and has the problem I did. I purchased a used receiver with xt32 and it was working terribly, except in opposite way of this form. I could turn my subwoofer all the way up and was reading, but it was telling me that it was too quiet. Running through all tests would fail because it would test the subwoofer and say that the level was too low or there was too much ambient noise. I turned it up until it was rattling the windows so I figured something was wrong, but I went ahead and tested my speakers and the results were atrocious. I tried every I could think, thinking maybe something was faulty in the receiver, etc. I decided though that just might be the mic so I purchased a new one instantly fixed everything. I didn't really consider the calibration microphone because I bought it from an acquaintance who I knew took good care of unit, the receiver was exceptionally clean, everything else seemed to work fine and with a little research I knew it was the correct microphone. I didn't suspect that a microphone could go really. It's possible that it was handled roughly at one point or another but I did read that some types of mic's do degrade over time even with little use. Anyway, I'm thrilled with the results of Audyssey xt32 now so I thought I would stick this out there in case it would help someone.
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I didn't suspect that a microphone could go really. It's possible that it was handled roughly at one point or another but I did read that some types of mic's do degrade over time even with little use.
When theses style of mics degrade over time it is usually pretty subtle, say by a dB or two. When there is a huge impact on the sound it is often because the capsule's diaphragm [the thin, vibrating membrane which excites the voice coil] has cracked, torn, or become partly dislodged due to trauma. This is why nice mics are packed in very cushy foam padded transport boxes.

Free mics in AVRs are usually just stuffed in a thin cardboard box and you are lucky if they even bother to give you a padded bag.

Never drop them.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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