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post #1 of 23 Old 06-16-2014, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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YPAO confusion, center speaker sounds hollow

Hi all,


Have a question about how YPAO works. I have a Yamaha RX-V665.


My speaker setup is not the greatest. It keeps saying my FR is out of phrase, even though it isn't. I was reading through the manual, and it says if there is a warning (W1 in my case) the optimization will not complete. So because there is a warning, does that mean I'm not getting the full affect of YPAO setup? There's nothing I can do about the warning, it's just because of the speaker placement that I cannot change.


My second question, the center speaker sounds awful when it comes to movie voices, it sounds hollow and just gross to the ears. It's also the only speaker mounted directly on the wall, under my TV. Is there anything I can do about that? It's really ruining the experience for me.




Thanks!
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post #2 of 23 Old 06-16-2014, 04:59 PM
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Sometimes phase response of speakers is influenced by the room or by their position in the room - have you tried moving the FR speaker?

Your automatic room equalization probably isn't completing - can you turn this feature off? How does the center sound then? Can you manually set the crossover points for all the speakers or is it only part of the automatic YPAO? If it allows manual configuration of crossover points, select them according to the low frequency response of your speakers and try again. Do you have a sub? More details might help someone with expertise on the Yamaha AVR.

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post #3 of 23 Old 06-16-2014, 05:03 PM
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What speakers?

Does YPAO check the FR speaker first?

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post #4 of 23 Old 06-16-2014, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
Sometimes phase response of speakers is influenced by the room or by their position in the room - have you tried moving the FR speaker?

Your automatic room equalization probably isn't completing - can you turn this feature off? How does the center sound then? Can you manually set the crossover points for all the speakers or is it only part of the automatic YPAO? If it allows manual configuration of crossover points, select them according to the low frequency response of your speakers and try again. Do you have a sub? More details might help someone with expertise on the Yamaha AVR.

I believe I can turn off the EQ settings, I'll give that a try. I can't move the speakers, they are mounted on hangers. But it is indeed the position the speakers, it's closer to the corner. My room is a square.. And instead of being centered, my whole system is off centered towards the right. The sub is directly under the FR, in the corner.

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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
What speakers?

Does YPAO check the FR speaker first?
They're Polk Audio 5.0 set, I can't remember the model but it seemed to be the standard small satellite speaker set they sell. I don't know if YPAO checks the FR first, it most likely is.




I played around with the EQ settings, I choose "Flat" for the YPAO setting, but there's no difference between flat and off in the EQ settings screen.

Last edited by james9120; 06-16-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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post #5 of 23 Old 06-16-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
What speakers?

Does YPAO check the FR speaker first?
They're Polk Audio 5.0 set, I can't remember the model but it seemed to be the standard small satellite speaker set they sell. I don't know if YPAO checks the FR first, it most likely is.
Well, I guess it can't really check the phase of a single speaker. How far did it get in the phase check and can you tell how it performs (what it DID perform) it, exactly?

Are your speakers connected directly to the AVR or to the sub?

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post #6 of 23 Old 06-16-2014, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
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Originally Posted by james9120 View Post
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
What speakers?

Does YPAO check the FR speaker first?
They're Polk Audio 5.0 set, I can't remember the model but it seemed to be the standard small satellite speaker set they sell. I don't know if YPAO checks the FR first, it most likely is.
Well, I guess it can't really check the phase of a single speaker. How far did it get in the phase check and can you tell how it performs (what it DID perform) it, exactly?

Are your speakers connected directly to the AVR or to the sub?
It finished the setup, I believe it just saved the distance and level set, which are all good mostly. I might go back and check them with the sound meter I have, although I think that might be advised against.


They are all connected directly to the AVR.


I found the setup I have online, http://www.polkaudio.com/products/tl150




EDIT: Probably a stupid question, but what would happen if I purposely reversed the polarity of the speaker?

Last edited by james9120; 06-16-2014 at 05:53 PM.
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post #7 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 12:26 PM
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Pics of your setup would be helpful.
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post #8 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by james9120 View Post
EDIT: Probably a stupid question, but what would happen if I purposely reversed the polarity of the speaker?
It would probably report it as being in phase. But, IMO, you should rely on your wiring being correct and not on what YPAO says. So, check and double check all your wiring.

Of course, this won't help if the speaker is wired incorrectly, internally. And if that is at all a possibility, it could be both drivers or either the tweeter or the woofer which is 'out of phase'. If it is one or the other driver that is 'out of phase', reversing the polarity will not really remedy the situation although it might allow the speaker to pass the phase test.

Maybe those speakers' "aperiodic-tuned rear-firing bass port" is screwing up the YPAO phase test. Try covering the port when you run the test.

I know it is a pain in the ass, but you may want to move everything to a completely different location just to see what happens. As has been pointed out, there may be some weird acoustic anomaly related the speaker's interaction with the room that is causing the error.

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post #9 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
It would probably report it as being in phase. But, IMO, you should rely on your wiring being correct and not on what YPAO says. So, check and double check all your wiring.

Of course, this won't help if the speaker is wired incorrectly, internally. And if that is at all a possibility, it could be both drivers or either the tweeter or the woofer which is 'out of phase'. If it is one or the other driver that is 'out of phase', reversing the polarity will not really remedy the situation although it might allow the speaker to pass the phase test.

Maybe those speakers' "aperiodic-tuned rear-firing bass port" is screwing up the YPAO phase test. Try covering the port when you run the test.

I know it is a pain in the ass, but you may want to move everything to a completely different location just to see what happens. As has been pointed out, there may be some weird acoustic anomaly related the speaker's interaction with the room that is causing the error.
Thank you, I bet its my room's acoustic that's screwing it up. The speaker is swiveled with the rear pointing towards the corner. I have some mounting screws left over just under the swivels, I'll try mounting the speakers directly on the wall and see what happens.
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post #10 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe those speakers' "aperiodic-tuned rear-firing bass port" is screwing up the YPAO phase test. Try covering the port when you run the test.
This was it, I stuffed cotton balls in the port and finally passed, should I leave the cotton balls in the port now?
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post #11 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 06:47 PM
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This was it, I stuffed cotton balls in the port and finally passed, should I leave the cotton balls in the port now?
Hmmmm.
Well......................... are you using a sub and if so, at what frequency do you or YPAO crossover these speakers?

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post #12 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmmm.
Well......................... are you using a sub and if so, at what frequency do you or YPAO crossover these speakers?
I am, YPAO set the crossover to 80hz, but I think the speakers only support 100hz+
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post #13 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 08:40 PM
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I am, YPAO set the crossover to 80hz, but I think the speakers only support 100hz+
I do not know enough about YPAO (and there may be different versions). Does it actually set the crossover or is it defaulting to that 80Hz setting?

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post #14 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 08:45 PM
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I am, YPAO set the crossover to 80hz, but I think the speakers only support 100hz+

I highly doubt those 2.5" cones can go any lower than 100Hz. The Polk site says:

Total Frequency Response 95Hz-22kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 125 Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 20 kHz


That means your 80-125Hz region might be fairly empty, the 80-100 almost entirely. Why is it setting the crossover at 80Hz? Is that a default setting, or is it calculating it? I don't know enough about YPAO to answer that.

The room itself might help those speakers reach below 125Hz (hence the 80Hz crossover), but I can't see it going substantially below that.
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post #15 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I do not know enough about YPAO (and there may be different versions). Does it actually set the crossover or is it defaulting to that 80Hz setting?
It automatically sets it to 80hz.


Unfortunately my room's acoustics are so bad that bass above 80hz is a hit or miss, there's dead spots if I run a bass drop from a calibration CD. But there's nothing I can do about it. I've been thinking about getting rid of a sub and using large, high quality front speakers.


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I highly doubt those 2.5" cones can go any lower than 100Hz. The Polk site says:

Total Frequency Response 95Hz-22kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 125 Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 20 kHz


That means your 80-125Hz region might be fairly empty, the 80-100 almost entirely. Why is it setting the crossover at 80Hz? Is that a default setting, or is it calculating it? I don't know enough about YPAO to answer that.

The room itself might help those speakers reach below 125Hz (hence the 80Hz crossover), but I can't see it going substantially below that.
Thanks! I adjusted the crossover to 160hz, my only options around there was 120hz or 160hz. Doesn't give me much leg room.
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post #16 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 05:09 AM
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Thanks! I adjusted the crossover to 160hz, my only options around there was 120hz or 160hz. Doesn't give me much leg room.
I'd try the 120 and see how it sounds; if you want more bass, then move it to 160. 120 is the normal LPF of LFE setting. Going higher means you're doubling up on the bass, which might sound weird.
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post #17 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by james9120 View Post


Have a question about how YPAO works. I have a Yamaha RX-V665.


My speaker setup is not the greatest. It keeps saying my FR is out of phrase, even though it isn't. I was reading through the manual, and it says if there is a warning (W1 in my case) the optimization will not complete. So because there is a warning, does that mean I'm not getting the full affect of YPAO setup? There's nothing I can do about the warning, it's just because of the speaker placement that I cannot change.
The usual cause of this is excess reflections from surfaces around the afflicted speaker(s).


Quote:
My second question, the center speaker sounds awful when it comes to movie voices, it sounds hollow and just gross to the ears. It's also the only speaker mounted directly on the wall, under my TV. Is there anything I can do about that? It's really ruining the experience for me.
The usual cause of this is also excess reflections from surfaces around the afflicted speaker(s).
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post #18 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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The usual cause of this is excess reflections from surfaces around the afflicted speaker(s).




The usual cause of this is also excess reflections from surfaces around the afflicted speaker(s).
So probably directly under my TV and right above the entertainment stand is my source of reflections. Anyway to try and see if that's the source? I have to find a new location for it
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post #19 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 01:36 PM
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So probably directly under my TV and right above the entertainment stand is my source of reflections. Anyway to try and see if that's the source? I have to find a new location for it
Or to the left or right.

Reposition or reorient speakers or dampen the reflective surfaces with sound absorbing materials.
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post #20 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 02:29 PM
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120 is the normal LPF of LFE setting. Going higher means you're doubling up on the bass, which might sound weird.


The LPF of LFE and the speaker channel crossover settings are completely independent of one another. The LPF of LFE is applied to the LFE channel ONLY and the speaker channel crossovers are applied to the bass that is present in the main channels ONLY. Setting the speaker channel crossovers to 160Hz will not 'double up' anything.

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post #21 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 02:42 PM
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The LPF of LFE and the speaker channel crossover settings are completely independent of one another. The LPF of LFE is applied to the LFE channel ONLY and the speaker channel crossovers are applied to the bass that is present in the main channels ONLY. Setting the speaker channel crossovers to 160Hz will not 'double up' anything.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm more familiar with Audyssey -- clearly YPAO uses some different terms.
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Thanks for clarifying. I'm more familiar with Audyssey -- clearly YPAO uses some different terms.
It is NO different on an Audyssey-equipped AVR.

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post #23 of 23 Old 06-19-2014, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Soo is 120hz an appropriate hz or should I start with 160hz?


I was playing around with the settings just now, I changed the bass out to sub and front, it seemed to make a big difference in bass output and voice in music sounds a bit better. Haven't tried a movie yet. I left the speaker size to small though, I can't hear any distortion blasting bassy music with the sub turned off, would it be safe to leave bass output set to front and sub?

Edit:
Never mind it makes the bass from the sub sound horrible.

Last edited by james9120; 06-20-2014 at 08:12 AM.
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