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post #31 of 51 Old 07-08-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeR397 View Post
Does a 7.2.4 Atmos setup use Front Wides, or are the floor speakers: fronts/center/surround/surround backs and then 4 speakers mounted high up for front heights and rear heights to add the 3d aspect to the sound? http://dolbyatmos.onkyousa.com/



So far, I've tested stereo with single amp, stereo with bi-amp (huge improvement over single amp with the CM10's) and 7.1 for a movie and multi-stereo setting for music. I really need to get the 2 Supercube 8000's in before I comment about the movie experience b/c they will totally change things compared to my old 100w sub (3000w vs 100w lol), but again I'm absolutely blown away by how amazing multi-stereo setting for music is in 7.1 setup. The hairs on my arms literally stand up.

Finally, I've got a variety of speaker cable types/guages I'm testing. For what it's worth, the Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable (to fronts and center) seems to work fantastic, but I'm guessing is very overpriced. I've got Audioquest X-2 50' wires for the rest of the speakers which seems to my ears to work just as good at a lower price, although I did buy the banana connector add ons too. However, for comparison, I used two older and smaller gugage, little shielded, speaker wires for some of the CM8's and it's incredible how distorted the CM8's connected with the crappy wire gets once volume goes into loud or very loud terrority, while the speakers with the type 4 or x-2 wires remain crystal clear. What are your thoughts on ideal speaker wire?

I got talked into getting Audioquest HDMI carbon level cables as well (a 3 and 2 meter one). I'm going to do similar testing of these, although need at least HDMI 1.4 standard to support 4k video to my new Sony 4k TV.
I'm not really sure about the Dolby Atmos set-up. I've only
Glanced at it as I have no need or use for it. Don't have a basement
Or a dedicated HT room, just a 5.2 set up in the living room.
I will take a look at it in more detail.

Regarding your statement about speaker wire, it's not the old
Wire causing your CM8's to distort. It's a lack of power to your
System at high volumes. Your running everything full range
Waiting on your subs. This will tax your Marantz power supply.
Don't go down the expensive speaker wire road. That is best buy's
Biggest area of profit. I use 16 gauge speaker wire bought
On a big roll from Home Depot. I did add banana plugs though. You should probably replace the old cheap
Wire with new 16 gauge wire.

Expensive HDMI cable is also a rip off...digital cable transmits
1's and 0's...the cable either works or it doesn't...period.
Nothing magical about speaker cable or digital cable, been
Proven scientifically for many years. If you think you are
Hearing a difference it's because you want to. If you had a
Blindfold on and had a friend switch speaker wires around to
Different speakers without you KNOWING which wires were
Which you couldn't tell the difference....I guarantee it.

Edit-I looked over the prices you paid for your
Speaker cables and HDMI cable. Best Buy
Is taking you to school!

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post #32 of 51 Old 07-08-2014, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeR397 View Post
Ok, I'm getting the XPA-5 actually. It's $200 more than the XP-3, but has the same 200w per channel and I can use the extra 2 channels for the zone 2 preout for my patio speakers and easily turn zone 2 on/off via the marantz to seemlessly play the same music in the basement as out on the patio.

I've still got the 145w Marantz external amp coming from BB, so it will be fun to test it compared to the Emotiva XPA-5 and see what benefit there is in the extra 55w rating and/or sound characteristics in single and biamping of the CM10's. Will return the looser.
I think the Emotiva XPA-5 is a much wiser investment.
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post #33 of 51 Old 07-09-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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lol. Trust me I have no intention of being taken to school by Best Buy. I'm working through my own testing of the wires to see what difference is actually there and will return the fluff as needed. What is also interesting is that the 15% order discount I got is taken off the larger items in higher % such as the TV/subs/speakers while the cables are still at full price on my reciept, allowing for price match or upon return would effectively increase the average discount on the order (before additional BB GC and RZ discounts of ~20%). I do arbitrage for a living, so keep track of these things closely .

The audioquest wires are pretty much the same price on Amazon as Best Buy, so not much for price matching room there. What I let Best Buy throw in the cart when they were discount happy:

Audioquest 10' speaker wire Type 4 - 2 pack: 2 of these for the CM10's biamp = $250 * 2 = $500 . http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioque...&skuId=9511334

Audioquest X2 Grey 50' bulk cable - 2 of these at $95 each = $190 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioque...20x2&cp=1&lp=2

Audioquest 4 Banana Plugs (2 packs) at $30 each = $60 (ouch!)

Audioquest Irish red 9.8' Subwoofer cable at $90 (which is a glorfied mono RCA with a ground lol) http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioque...0red&cp=1&lp=1 and also a wireless kit for the second sub at $150 (I think I'll end up wiring it if the RCA is thin enough to go under the carpet for the rear sub).

Audioquest Carbon HDMI 2m and 3m at $239 and $300 = $540 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioque...hdmi&cp=1&lp=3

So that's a base of about $1,500 in cables/connections which was actually charged and I'll get refunded in full upon return, presuming keeping the other discounts (would return at a different store perhaps).

To be fair, my old speaker wire does indeed cause the distortion to the CM8's at very loud volumes, as I've switched back and forth and the X2 wired CM8's remain crystal clear and the old thin wired ones are the distorted ones (have tried different positions and channels too but this is all in multi-stereo mode anyway). The X2 wires are 14 guage and seem to work every bet as good as the pricy 10ft Type 4's that are $125 per 10 feet (but come with free bananas!). I need to do my research next on cables, what I need and what I don't and then do some comparison testing. I do need HDMI 1.4 at least to carry the 4k signal to my TV, but I'm doubting the Carbon level cables I got at $240 and $300 are going to enhance anything noticeable over similar high grade 1.4 HDMI at $30 each. I'm presuming that any 14 guage wires are going to be just as good for the speaker connections, and the only thing the Audioquest X2 adds is a heavier rubber cover for better claimed "shielding." Will look on Amazon/Monoprice ect.

As for Banana's, I presume I only want them for plugging into the back of the receiver, and not the speakers themselves? The speakers do not let them plug in and the insert vertically and likely not as good of contact as bare wire; further on the CM10's the bulky rubber covers crowd things and knock each other loose. I do like having them in the back of the AVR though.

Now to build my Salamander Synergy counsel (going to be a major PITA), which just got delivered and the delivery guy apparantly thought F it, leave this 300lb monster out on the driveway and did not even bring it to my door lol.

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post #34 of 51 Old 07-09-2014, 01:56 PM
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Yeah, $1500 in cables is outrageous...but I've seen
Much higher! Discount or not.

I think you would do very well with quality 14 gauge
Wire from Monoprice. Get the banana plugs from them
Too. They are very easy to do yourself, I've even found
That it is easier to do a banana plug into the AVR than just
The wire. Faster and you don't have to worry about stray
Strands causing shorts. The "old thin wire" you mentioned
Causing distortion needs to be tossed immediately.

RE: HDMI cables...I use the very finest super high tech
Ones from Monoprice. About $8 for a six foot length,
Remember HDMI is digital...1's and 0's.

I wish I was there to help you put your Salamander together,
love doing that stuff.

Remember that you can get very good quality
14 or 16 gauge wire in a bulk roll from any
Local hardware or big box hardware store.
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post #35 of 51 Old 07-09-2014, 02:03 PM
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For your amusement....the reviews alone
Are priceless!!!

http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Ter...s=speaker+wire

More Fun..
http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Dia...EX0VKY5ENKQTBR
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post #36 of 51 Old 07-09-2014, 02:16 PM
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One more thing...the wireless kit for your second sub
Is actually very good. Gives you the freedom to move the
Sub around if needed. (As long as there is a power outlet near)

Subs rarely sound their best where you think they should..LOL
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post #37 of 51 Old 07-11-2014, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The Emotiva XPA5 arrived. Holy hell this thing is a beast, its like 70lbs!

Test one: Stereo mode bi-amp test of Marantz 7008 doing both amps to the CM10's vs Emotiva doing the woofers. Result: Honestly can't tell much of a difference. (FWIW I've got the Emotiva powering the woofers and the AVR powering the mid/tweeter in this test). I noticed a huge difference with a single amp vs bi-amp setup to the CM10's, but I really can't tell a difference with the Emotiva vs just two channels from the AVR.

Test two: I'm continuing to get distoration out of the CM8's (not CM10's or CMC2) at very loud levels on songs with a lot of bass. I think the small guage cables I was testing at first had something to do with this, but you are right that it's lack of power from the AVR when in multi-channel mode using all 9 internal amps. The CM8's all have the bridges connected and are single amp'd, and when I used the preouts on the AVR to the Emotiva to power 2 of the 4 CM8's, the Emotive powered CM8's remained crystal clear whereas the other 2 retained thier distortion.

I also have both Supercube 8000's in and am trying to get them setup properly. My initial thought is that they do not blend in well and sound too boomy, but better room placement further from the wall and some setting adjustments has them sounding better. I need to see where/how Audussey is assigning thier crossovers and what load they are taking off the towers if any, and perhaps that will help with the distoration issue too. Still, frankly I expected more for thier price/specs.

Here is a little kink: The CM9's just went on sale for $1250 each at BB (from $1500). If I can get them to give me the 15% off that sale price I'm considering returning the CM8's for CM9's all around (which are taller and hit over the couch better), but in order to do that I'll likely need to use the Emotiva or more amp's to power the CM9's as they are rated at 200w vs 150w. I'm not sure I want to do this on a few levels, and have more testing to do first.

Finally, I ordered 300ft 12 guage wire, 16 banana plugs, some high quality RCA plugs and a single sub/coax cable from Monoprice today: Grand total: ~$140 shipped vs the ~$900 of Audioquest wires. I'm sure upon testing I'll notice zero sound quality loss. Also, one of my multi hundred dollar X4 Audioquest cables has a banana plug that broke after just two uses, lol. I've also got some 1.4 HDMI "hi end" cables from Sears for literally free (base was $30 each but had SYWR promos) that I'll compare to the snake oil ones from BB and will also be returning those.

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post #38 of 51 Old 07-11-2014, 08:27 PM
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Good to hear back from you. I like your series
Of tests. I am also glad to hear that you are
Getting rid of the "Shake oil" wires. Well done.

I would like you to possibly try one more test
Using your new Emotiva amp.

What I would like you to do is reinstall the jumpers
On your CM10 and CMC2 and run them only with
The Emotiva...no bi amp. I don't think you will hear
Any difference. 200 watts is plenty for the front three!


Now your going to think that you will be wasting the
Front 3 power channels of the Marantz, but this may
Not be true. By not using the front 3 amps of the Marantz
You will have more power to run the CM8's. Remember that
The Marantz has one power supply and the more of the 9 channels
You use the less power available. By "idling" the front 3 I'm think
You will not hear the distortion. Give it a shot if you want.

When you run Audyssey please post back the crossovers for
All the speakers, I can help you there if you would like.

Let me know if you swap out the CM8's too.

Concerning specs...always take them with a grain
Of salt..they often reflect ideal conditions. Your room and
The positioning of the speakers has a huge impact
On what you hear. If the CM8's are distorting, proper
Application of bass mgmt may help alleviate the issue.
A good sub will ALWAYS play bass note better than
Any speaker.

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post #39 of 51 Old 07-12-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I like your suggestion on the Emotiva powering the front three and was thinking along the same lines...my next setup is to power the 4 CM8's and the CMC2 with the Emotiva alone via the preamps, and then use the AVR for bi-amping the CM10's only (ie only 4 internal amps used on the AVR). When I want to use Zone 2 outside patio speakers (which will be my 300w old KLH towers) it'll just be a quick banana plug changeup away which is easier than setting the cushions out on the patio furniture (and otherwise I have no issues hearing the basement music outside opening the patio door a bit ).

I need to see what amp assigns will work the best for this setup though, and will try your suggestion as well. Do the preouts always carry a signal even if the amp assigns has thier relative internal amp turned off (or the speaker is not detected?). I figure Audussey will figure/configure this anyway if I leave it as 7channel bi-amp mode when it does the tone testing, but not sure on that.

The other test I should be doing is to buy the Denon 4250ci which is showing a solid 40% more power across relative channels driven over the Marantz 7008 as you posted before: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench vs http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench . Powering 7 channels the wattage is 69w vs 109w which is a big difference (five channels if the rest is offloaded to the Emotiva would make it 101 vs 121 which is a lot less of a difference and also likely adequate on both levels for distortion free very loud listening). The price is about the same on the two, but the biggest Drawback on the Denon is that thier Atmos AVR is not due out until January whereas Marantz is due in September and BB ok'd me to "rebuy/return" the 7008 as needed within my 45 day return windows in order to exchange it for the 7009 when they get that in.

Not sure what I want to do on the CM9's, still waiting to hear back and what type of exchange deal/discount I can do. I'm surprised that B&W speakers went on sale, and also that it's ONLY the CM9's, not any other CM's. The Emotiva 200w would power them all perfectly if the financials of an exchange line up.

Concerning the Supercube 8000's, I made some progress with them last night. The initial issue was the AVR's sub level was set all the way up at +12, I set them at flat 0 (on range of -12 to +12) and the volume on the subs to 30 out of 40 and that made a big improvement. Bass sounded great about 80'% of the time, perfectly seemless and deep, but 20% of the time there was too much higher frequency and poor sound (mostly at high volumes during movies and music the subs don't sound great at still). The subs will go down to 12hz is what they claim, but the crossover setting on the sub only goes to 60hz so I'm confused on that. The AVR crossover is set to the lowest for all channels at 40hz right now (set by Audussey but I can't manually set it any lower either). I'll deal with this area after getting all the towers sounding perfect in all listening situations, but any suggestions is much appreciated!

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post #40 of 51 Old 07-12-2014, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeR397 View Post
I like your suggestion on the Emotiva powering the front three and was thinking along the same lines...my next setup is to power the 4 CM8's and the CMC2 with the Emotiva alone via the preamps, and then use the AVR for bi-amping the CM10's only (ie only 4 internal amps used on the AVR). When I want to use Zone 2 outside patio speakers (which will be my 300w old KLH towers) it'll just be a quick banana plug changeup away which is easier than setting the cushions out on the patio furniture (and otherwise I have no issues hearing the basement music outside opening the patio door a bit ).

I need to see what amp assigns will work the best for this setup though, and will try your suggestion as well. Do the preouts always carry a signal even if the amp assigns has thier relative internal amp turned off (or the speaker is not detected?). I figure Audussey will figure/configure this anyway if I leave it as 7channel bi-amp mode when it does the tone testing, but not sure on that.

The other test I should be doing is to buy the Denon 4250ci which is showing a solid 40% more power across relative channels driven over the Marantz 7008 as you posted before: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench vs http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench . Powering 7 channels the wattage is 69w vs 109w which is a big difference (five channels if the rest is offloaded to the Emotiva would make it 101 vs 121 which is a lot less of a difference and also likely adequate on both levels for distortion free very loud listening). The price is about the same on the two, but the biggest Drawback on the Denon is that thier Atmos AVR is not due out until January whereas Marantz is due in September and BB ok'd me to "rebuy/return" the 7008 as needed within my 45 day return windows in order to exchange it for the 7009 when they get that in.

Not sure what I want to do on the CM9's, still waiting to hear back and what type of exchange deal/discount I can do. I'm surprised that B&W speakers went on sale, and also that it's ONLY the CM9's, not any other CM's. The Emotiva 200w would power them all perfectly if the financials of an exchange line up.

Concerning the Supercube 8000's, I made some progress with them last night. The initial issue was the AVR's sub level was set all the way up at +12, I set them at flat 0 (on range of -12 to +12) and the volume on the subs to 30 out of 40 and that made a big improvement. Bass sounded great about 80'% of the time, perfectly seemless and deep, but 20% of the time there was too much higher frequency and poor sound (mostly at high volumes during movies and music the subs don't sound great at still). The subs will go down to 12hz is what they claim, but the crossover setting on the sub only goes to 60hz so I'm confused on that. The AVR crossover is set to the lowest for all channels at 40hz right now (set by Audussey but I can't manually set it any lower either). I'll deal with this area after getting all the towers sounding perfect in all listening situations, but any suggestions is much appreciated!
The preouts will always have a signal.
If Audyssey set your sub at +12 then
The volume on the back of the sub was to low when you ran it. Increase the volume of the subs and re do Audyssey. You should shoot for a number close to zero or even negative.
(Minus 3 or 4)

I think Audyssey set your speakers too
Low. (This happens) I would change all floor standers and center to 60hz.
You will get better results by using the
Higher xover. Let the subs take care of bass below 60hz..that's what they do best!
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post #41 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Great advice and it made a nice difference. The frequencies on the CM10's is down to 45, CMC2 is 55, and the CM8's only go down to 69, so the crossover 40hz setting for all speakers was no good. I made these adjustments and set the subs to 60hz and it cleared things up much better. Also, I think the subs are sounding better now after being broken in a little and loosened up, much more natural as part of the music/movie and not an addition. Part of me wants to order the SVS PB12 or 13 for a comparison, but I got the Supercube 8000's rung up for $1k each less another 15% in discounted gift cards so SVS would be 2.5x more expensive and they are huge hulking monsters in the ported variety. Any idea what return shipping would be to SVS if I don't like it? I'm guessing at least $150 given the size and 188lbs of weight!

The CM8's still get heavily distorted at very loud music levels with aggressive bass, and I think the issue is just maxing out the potential of the speaker. The CMC2 and CM10's have zero issue with this at any level. I set the speaker size from large to small (leaving the rest of the crossovers and levels the same) for the CM8's and that instantly corrected the distortion issue at very loud levels, as I'm sure it treats them more as a bookshelf and removes more of the bass. The woofers on them still move nicely and more appropriately in small size setting at this level, but for low - loud music and all movies, they sound better set as large speakers and carrying more bass. I think the solution is simply to set them to small size really quickly when I'm going to be raging with friends at deafening levels on heavy bass (which is twice a month if that), otherwise will leave them at large setting for everything else.

It turns out the CM9's are on discount b/c they are being updated (perhaps an external tweeter like the CM10s). Doesn't sound like BB will give me the 15% off the reduced $1250 price of the CM9's so it'd be a $250 difference * 4 = $1k to swap and I'm doubting I'll do this. It would likely require using the Emotiva to power the 4 CM9's and the CMC2 and then biamping the CM10's with the receiver as well, eliminating my Zone 2 output. I don't think it'll sound any better with the CM9's, and perhaps not as good if they are not getting adequate 200w of power as the CM8's, just that they'd elminate the distoration issue I described above.

The Sony 79'' is great, and I've eliminated about 95% of the soap opera effect and juddering in films with Clear setting on the TV, and perhaps some help with the AVR as well. I need to try the 24hz PS3 playback setting as well. My only issue with it is that it's not that much bigger than my old 65'' plasma, ridiculously expensive (rung up at $7k) and not necessarily that much of a better overall viewing experience. I really would like to get the Sharp 90'' (which is cheaper too) but everyone says the juddering and motion is terrible on it and that's what I've noticed the time or two I've watched it. My BB has one on display in thier Magnolia room with teh CM10's actually, so I'm going to try to play with it there. A 90'' TV would really complete the setup better than the 79 Sony or my 65' plasma, but I dont' think I can live with the motion issues.

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post #42 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm setting up my main room upstairs as well and want it to play in sync with the basement for parties. If I get a second AVR that has Airplay, can that alone play on 2 AVR's at the same time via my Iphone? That would be the easiest way to link them. Alternatively, I could get a Sono's Connect setup at $350 base and use my old AVR, but I'm not sure that is needed with an Iphone and having AVR's on the same home network?

I've got the 4 CM1's I'll eventually be using for Atmos setup and my old sub and AVR setup upstairs now and it sounds good, perhaps adequate with the 4 CM1's despite the space being the same as the basement but 2 stories high ceilings. I'm considering getting 2 CM9's while they are on clearance for the living room side and then the CM1's above the cabinets in the kitchen opposite the CM9's. I can fit towers up top above the cabinets, but they'd need to be angled down or the tweeters and mid will be pointing 15ft parallel across our heads at the wall and I'm not sure how I'd tilt them 45 degrees down and keep them stable easily. Regardless, I think CM9's with 2 CM1's and my old subs will be perfect for upstairs, especially once it's in sync with the basement too. Upstairs is only for music, not movies.
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post #43 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 12:11 PM
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If the CM8's are speced at 69hz then the xover should be
At 70 hz or probably 80hz(preferred)

Regarding bass management small speakers vs large speakers.
This is often the source of confusion! It has NOTHING to do with
How BIG your speakers are!!

Large speaker setting=no bass management
Small speaker setting=bass management is engaged and
All frequencies below the xover are
Sent to the subs.
Always set ALL your speakers to SMALL!!

Another AVR upstairs with airplay should do what you want.
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post #44 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 01:00 PM
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I am also curious if you tried the experiment
I suggested in post #38 , paragraph 3??
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post #45 of 51 Old 07-15-2014, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the small vs large setting, I know this has nothing to do with the actual size of the speaker but rather bass management. The Marantz 7008 definately applies the crossover and sends the relative frequences to the subs even in Large speaker setting though. Very easy to tell this is happening playing with the crossovers while still in large speaker setting, but I'm guessing the Small setting simply removes more of the volume going to the CM8's. I have toggled between small and large on the speakers and have to say I prefer the fullness of the sound coming from Large over Small setting at lower and mid (movie) level volumes, even with exact same crossovers set (which are appropriately assigned, but only go in 20hz increments from 40, 60, 80, ect, so the CM8's are set to 80 now and in Large mode still). I think I'm just going to leave everything as Large and toggle the CM8's to small on the once or twice a month parties that the CM8's are overwhelmed with bass.

Yes, I have the CM10's and CMC2 single amp connected to the Emotiva right now (and the four CM8's connected to the AVR). I don't notice any difference in sound with this over the bi-amp CM10's off the AVR, but it's a little harder to tell than when playing with crossovers and AVR settings b/c I have to manually unplug and replug things with a delay. Seems the same volume/fullness/bass to me though but I'll test this again and post back. I'm going to try biamping the CM10's mid/tweeters with the AVR and the Emotiva for the woofers next to see if there is any difference there, but my guess is there will not be a noticeable difference above the single 200w it's currently getting from the Emotiva. I could also biamp the CM10's with 2 Emotiva 200w channels as well (as I've not got zone 2 speakers up yet), but my guess is again I won't notice anything b/c regardless of the ~100 to 200w the CM10 tweeters will get from the AVR/Emotiva bi-amp setup, they will never use more than 50w, so the only real goal is to make sure the CM10 woofers get the full 200w all the time with a biamp setup rather than sharing the 200w single channel (which again is likely also very similar results).

I got the Marantz 2 channel 145w Amp I previously ordered today. I'm not even going to open it. The 5 channel version is more $ than the Emotiva and 65w less per channel vs the XP5. I am super impressed by the Emotiva, not just the sound, but the packaging, look, and the 78lbs is reassuring in and of itself; makes the Marantz 2 channel amp feel like a paper weight. Plus, I can always do squats with the Emotiva on my back for some exercise too.

Do banana plugs on the back of the CM speakers not work like the back of the AVR and plug straight in? It seems they need to be twisted in like speaker wire and get crushed in the terminals or are not secured, so I'm planning to just use bananas on the back of the AVR and exposed wire to the speaker terminals? I like the ease of banana plugs, especially when I'm testing so many setups though.

As for Airplay, it looks like IoS devices (iphone and ipad) can only stream to one AVR at a time, but that Itunes on a PC or Laptop can stream to multiple. This is a nice solution for now, but it means only my Itunes library can be multi room streamed (a feature that will be cool to use during parties with people in multi stories of the house but frankly not that often), but not Spotify. I can use the Apple app to control my desktop Itunes for multi avr streaming though, so this nice. Everyone is hoping that the Iphone 6 will allow multi AVR streaming in Airplay which would then enable multi room Spotify streaming.

I watched the Dark Night Rises blu ray last night and it was the most engaging, awesome movie experience I have ever had! The subs are set perfect, as are the speakers, and the sound was phenomonal. So much perfect superlow bass, absolute clarity, and great sound effects (I've seen the movie before obvoiously). The TV looked great too, and I've fixed 95%+ of the motion issue on big LEDs with TV/AVR calibration. That said, I think I'm going to do an ~even exchange for the 85'' Samsung 4k from Best Buy http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...a-20/ref=nosim . I demo'd it last night as Best Buy just got it in to setup but not allowed to sell for a week. It seems every bit as strong as the Sony in picture quality and motion, and is 6'' bigger screen size and only 5'' behind the 90'' 1080p Sharp which cannot compete in picture quality/motion with these Sony/Samsung models. The Magnolia guys want me to look at 4k Projectors as well, but a projector setup looks to be another $5k++ in price and I'm limited by wall size to probalby 125'' and I don't think it'll look as good. Need to research it though, but I've never been a fan of projectors.

Last edited by MikeR397; 07-15-2014 at 10:33 AM.
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post #46 of 51 Old 07-16-2014, 08:04 AM
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It sounds like you are about 90% there. I'm curious
To what you stated about the large/small settings
And xovers in the Marantz. That's not how it worked
For me BUT I haven't purchased a new AVR in 3 1/2
Years! Things may have changed?

A projector in the size room you have May be an alternative.
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post #47 of 51 Old 07-16-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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With speakers in large mode, adjusting the crossovers makes a night and day difference still, just as if they are in small. I can instantly toggle between 250hz and 40hz and it's like being blasted by an entirely different subwoofer (not in a good way).

I actually got into looking at projectors yesterday and demo'd the $15k Sony 4k projector. I have never liked projectors but admit the quality in a dark room is parallel to the TVs on these pricy Sony's. I did the maths for cinemaaspect and/or 16:9 (it's an anamorphic projector so can do both) on various setups on my wall, and the largest screen possible (see attached photo), IF I move my Salamnader counsel off the wall to another wall with the AV stuff, and IF I ackwadly space out the CM10's and if I leave the CMC2 sitting on the floor, I can do up to 150'' screen in 16:9 format or 143'' in cinemascope size (both limited by width). This is a huge difference in size over the TV, but the price for the projector/screen/setup is going to be ~$20k and it creates a ackward layout. Also, I'm sitting about a max of 16ft away so the optimal suggested screen size is a max of 125'' for what thats worth...

If I keep the counsel as is, and the CM10's as is, then my max potential projector screen is 112'' for cinemascope or 119'' for 16:9. I'm not sure this is big enough to justify the projector over the 85'' Samsung 4k UHD for 1/2 the price and MUCH MUCH easier setup and install. I'm not that concerned about ambient light as our basement is/can be dark always and I rarely watch tv before 9pm.

Also, while cinemascope is fantastic for movies (it eliminates the black bars on top and bottom for perfect screen fit), watching any traditional 16:9 HD is going to only use ~65% of the cinemascope screen which is likely about the same size as the 85'' TV. For this reason, I think doing a 16:9 screen (up to 150'' without the counsel or 119'' with the counsel) and keeping the black bars for movies and then full screen fit for regular 16:9 HD would be the best projection option if I go that way.

In any event, the video setup is between the projector setup, the Samsung 85'' that just came out, or keeping the 79'' Sony. If I go with TV, I can't imagine that for the same price the 85''' Samsung wouldn't be better, as it's supposed to compete with the $25k 84'' Sony 4k from this year. I would buy the Samsung for side by side comparison to the 79''' Sony and then return the looser is the plan, presuming I skip on projection.

What is your opinion on the Panamax 5400-PM? I got it for about $400 after discounts. I've not had a chance to test what if anything it adds. I've never seen voltage drop below 118, and it normally sits at 121, so it looks like it's not helping with voltage until it gets below/above 116/124 and in that case I'm not sure what this "conditioner" is doing beyond a basic $10 surge protector???

See the pic for the current mayhem setup (taken before I got the XPA5). We are painting the walls a dark blue today and if I get a TV I'll mount it up slightly (and tilt down up to 15%). I'll likely put the CMC2 on the top of the counsel and then the Marantz/Emotiva in the middle large/open space which should be adequate for cooling/air flow (that Emotiva gets HOT after a movie!).
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Last edited by MikeR397; 07-16-2014 at 10:25 AM.
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post #48 of 51 Old 07-16-2014, 12:41 PM
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IMHO the Panamax is a waste of
Money. Not really needed at all.
Just get a good surge surpressor.
To me power conditioners fall into
The same category of expensive
Speaker wire. I'm sure there must
Be a benefit to a few, but not to
Most.
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post #49 of 51 Old 07-16-2014, 03:14 PM
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Was looking at the pic you posted. If I may
Make a suggestion....your center channel speaker
Is sitting way too low. Your not going to get good
Results from that speaker where it is. Needs to go
UP!

Also, is the center channel sitting on top of the
Emotiva or Marantz? Don't want to block the vents
On either unit. Can cause excess heat build up leading
To failure. My rule of thumb....nothing goes on top of
AVRs or power amps.
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post #50 of 51 Old 07-17-2014, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll test out the Panamax on the TV and audio and try to do some more research, but it's likley getting returned. It is supposed to remove the inherent hum you hear from electricity (ie try turning the volume up on your system without any input and you'll usually hear a humming -- when I do this now it is still dead silent), along with add in voltage if you drop below 116v but I've never seen that happen. It's an expensive trinket if I'm not getting a tangible value out of it.

Ya, see above about my plans for the setup. The CMC2 is going to sit on the top of the counsel, with the bottom of the TV mounted on the wall just above it. We finished painting yesterday and I'm slowing make progress, but it'll be a couple weeks until I can get the Samsung delivered to decide on which TV I'm keeping and them mounting. The XPA5 and AVR will be sitting on the bottom shelf where the CMC2 is in the picture I posted, and will not have anything sitting on top of them. It's a big empty space in there so heat disspation should be nearly as effective as if they sat on top of the counsel as well. The only remaining issue is I really want the 7009 Marantz in that amazing silver color, but I've yet to figure out a setup that this won't clash with the black XP5 sitting right next to it. Tought problem to have .

Thanks again for your continued imputs. Going to try biamping the CM10's with the Emotiva today and will report back if I notice anything over thier single Emotiva amp they are on now . Any reason I should not do this given they are rated at 300w and the biamp is two lines of 200w? I figure the 300w rating is for a single line of power?
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post #51 of 51 Old 07-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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Your cm10's are not going to use anywhere near
300 watts...ever.

Last edited by grasshoppers; 07-17-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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