AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: Take 2 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 776 Old 08-14-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnargs View Post
BTW don't bother posting the 'results' of a 'test' where the participants are put in a test situation where it is easy to cheat and asked not to cheat. That is actually a test of a completely different phenomenon than the one you intended!
He is not asking you to accept the results. You can run the test yourself, and not cheat and see where you land. Without such a test, most people would not be in a position to create their own.

The test has generated some of the best discussions on this topic and data to back it. For example, in the debate thread we ABX tested Arny's key jingling files which did not have the timing delay and hence were immune to m.zillch's cheat, yet some of us managed to hear the difference in double blind ABX test. Here is my results for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
32 Khz versus 96 Khz
=================================
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:10:07

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 3216 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

06:10:07 : Test started.
06:10:38 : 01/01 50.0%
06:10:50 : 02/02 25.0%
06:11:07 : 03/03 12.5%
06:11:23 : 04/04 6.3%
06:11:36 : 05/05 3.1%
06:12:00 : 06/06 1.6%
06:12:14 : 07/07 0.8%
06:12:26 : 08/08 0.4%
06:12:38 : 09/09 0.2%
06:12:49 : 10/10 0.1%
06:13:00 : 11/11 0.0%
06:13:23 : 12/12 0.0%
06:13:42 : 13/13 0.0%
06:13:48 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/13 (0.0%)


44.1 versus 96 Khz
---------------------------------

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/09 06:32:02

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling band resolution limited 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

06:32:02 : Test started.
06:33:07 : 01/01 50.0%
06:33:17 : 02/02 25.0%
06:33:24 : 03/03 12.5%
06:33:36 : 04/04 6.3%
06:33:47 : 05/05 3.1%
06:33:58 : 06/06 1.6%
06:34:12 : 07/07 0.8%
06:34:15 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/7 (0.8%)
As you see, this is a perfect score when it comes to finding the difference between the original 96 Khz and down sampling to 44.1 and 32 Khz.


Maybe the data is not accurate. Maybe human beings are corrupt to the core. Seeing how most people post under aliases here, we could doubt any and all things they say. But we don't, right? I see a picture of a bald eagle landing in your avatar. It is too small for me to see if it is a real photo. Let's say it is and you took it. Who says you didn't manipulate that image? Maybe part of the wing was clipped (very common in BIF -- birds in flight) and you used photoshop to clone the pixels as Arthur Morris routinely does. But you didn't tell us that. Should we dismiss all such pictures as corrupt?

What the test has done is bring something different to this forum than thousand argumentative posts with references to one or two studies whose weaknesses they don't understand or admit. It is a fresh take on these discussions.

Yes, it rattles the cages of those people who say such tests always generate negative outcome. So we see a lot of defensive posturing. That's fine. It leads to good discussions and raises the curtain on how much we really know about this topic and routine talking points we use, assuming outcomes like what I post above do not and cannot exist.

For all of this, we need to thank Scott and Mark, not throw stones at them for the hard work they put in to generate meaningful discussion on this topic. I know I am super appreciative.

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post #62 of 776 Old 08-14-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnargs View Post
BTW don't bother posting the 'results' of a 'test' where the participants are put in a test situation where it is easy to cheat and asked not to cheat.

To add to that, did anyone else find it a bit odd to include [what's effectively] a cursory set of instructions on how one might (theoretically) go about cheating, right in the instructions themselves?

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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Of course, these results are anecdotal and not statistically significant, and the entire experiment is not scientifically controlled—I can only hope that participants don't cheat and look at the spectra of the two versions before listening and deciding which is which.

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post #63 of 776 Old 08-14-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
To add to that, did anyone else find it a bit odd to include [what's effectively] a cursory set of instructions on how one might (theoretically) go about cheating, right in the instructions themselves?
I didn't. It is a pretty obvious method of cheating after all. I thought it an up front admission that the test results needed to be taken with a grain of salt.

My concern was that a person acting in good faith might unconsciously differentiate some of the files solely on the basis of an unrelated parameter (a slight timing difference).

Last edited by MLXXX; 08-14-2014 at 04:35 PM.
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post #64 of 776 Old 08-14-2014, 07:13 PM
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ABX testing is not good in my opinion as we must stop listening to A before we start B.
What I would like to be able to do is upload A and B, start playing and switch between A and B during the playback so I can catch differences if any without stopping the song.
Is there a testing software that works like that?
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post #65 of 776 Old 08-14-2014, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blwegrzyn View Post
ABX testing is not good in my opinion as we must stop listening to A before we start B.
What I would like to be able to do is upload A and B, start playing and switch between A and B during the playback so I can catch differences if any without stopping the song.
Is there a testing software that works like that?



I take it you haven't actually ever tried using ABX in foobar? Its free and not that hard. I posted links in one of these threads including a video tutorial on how to use the ABX plugin. If you are having trouble finding it let me know.


You can switch between A and B, knowing exactly which is which, as many times as you want and you get to select if it plays the whole song, a specific part you like best, and if at each switch it takes you back to the beginning OR switches you mid-stream and stays right in the middle of the current song (or you favorite passage) where you are.


Or do you mean you want both the sound of A to be playing in your room simultaneously to B? Seems odd but buying two stereo systems would accomplish that or using another device called a mixer.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #66 of 776 Old 08-14-2014, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
The CD format of 44kHz 16 bits: a remarkable compromise

44.1/16 is remarkable. It has just enough bits for dither not to be noticeable at normal recording and playback levels. And it has just high enough a sample rate for the filtering in the top octave of human hearing to be a challenge that is surmountable with clever design. Despite that I think there are still subtle differences to be heard depending on the choice of filter. It's a long time since I experimented by listening to different filter methods. I wonder whether my hearing is still good enough in the 10 - 20 kHz range to detect differences...
In a digital world add four more bits of depth (to make it 20-bits), and double the sampling rate of 44.1 to 88.2kHz and the Red Book CD format (44.1/16) is no compromise anymore @ 88.2/20.

Them ECM and Channel Classics and Reference Recordings CDs would be just perfect, without compromise.
They are already sublime, but they could capture even more of the essence. DSD (SACD) is a good indicator in the nearby better direction.
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post #67 of 776 Old 08-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I take it you haven't actually ever tried using ABX in foobar? Its free and not that hard. I posted links in one of these threads including a video tutorial on how to use the ABX plugin. If you are having trouble finding it let me know.


You can switch between A and B, knowing exactly which is which, as many times as you want and you get to select if it plays the whole song, a specific part you like best, and if at each switch it takes you back to the beginning OR switches you mid-stream and stays right in the middle of the current song (or you favorite passage) where you are.


Or do you mean you want both the sound of A to be playing in your room simultaneously to B? Seems odd but buying two stereo systems would accomplish that or using another device called a mixer.
I did not look at the foobar ABX. I use some mac version of it called ABX tester.
I looked at foobar abx guide and i dont see the option to switch between the songs on the fly.
I want to start playing A and while A is at for example: 0:55sec I click switch to B and B starts playing exactly where A stopped.
I see the option to play specific part of the song but i always have to start from the beginning of the loop.
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post #68 of 776 Old 08-15-2014, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blwegrzyn View Post
I looked at foobar abx guide and i dont see the option to switch between the songs on the fly.
I want to start playing A and while A is at for example: 0:55sec I click switch to B and B starts playing exactly where A stopped.
This feature you want is indeed useful and exists in foobar ABX; it is a optional tick box under the "stop" button labeled:

"Keep playback position when changing track."
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post #69 of 776 Old 08-15-2014, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
This feature you want is indeed useful and exists in foobar ABX; it is a optional tick box under the "stop" button labeled:

"Keep playback position when changing track."
I tried that option and its cool but when you switch tracks there is slight break that is enough to throw you off.
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post #70 of 776 Old 08-15-2014, 04:27 PM
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In foobar ABX the switch is pretty much instantaneous, unless you are picking up on the fact that the two inherent files themselves are out of synch [which we now know is true at least for Mosaic A2 and B2, by about 10 milliseconds]. Maybe you are picking up on that tiny time delay.


Try loading the same song so A is literally the same song as B [you will have to relabel the name of it though or else foobar won't let you compare the two in the ABX plug-in]. Do you still hear this break which bothers you?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #71 of 776 Old 08-15-2014, 04:36 PM
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OK, you are right, I just loaded two songs: Al Greene "Let's stay together" and "Let's stay together -Copy" and indeed there is an audible gap in the sound.


JJ says clicks, ticks, and pops at the transitions can throw us off just as much as long delays where our exact memory will fade, so maybe foobar knows there will be a click so it mutes the transition so we don't hear the loud "THUNK" noise that would throw us for a loop even more. Not sure.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #72 of 776 Old 08-15-2014, 04:43 PM
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Update: It actually pauses the playback. It isn't just a mute. If you rapidly press "Play A" repeatedly you can almost stop the entire playback dead in its tracks. I never noticed that.


At least it seems consistent [as best as I can tell from a quick spin] so it shouldn't act as a tell.
A to A, A to B, B to A, A to X, X to A, B to X, X to B, etc. all seemed the same I think.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #73 of 776 Old 08-18-2014, 09:29 PM
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PM sent

Not 100% sure my system is up to it, but here it is:
Source 1: Laptop Foobar->WASAPI->HDMI Out
Source 2: HTPC OpenELEC (XBMC) -> HDMI Out
AVR: Marantz SR6003
Amps: Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks x2
Speakers: JBL Studio 590
Sub: SVS PB2000 x2

Pretty confident the two sources I tried are not re-sampling in any way
Tried AVR in both sub-crossover mode (not sure if any re-sampling here) and 'pure direct' mode
The JBL's are rated to 40KHz -6dB

Funny side note: My wife asked why I was doing it, to which I said "It's for a survey" ...she then responded with, "why do you want to do it? ...do you get a grocery voucher or anything?"

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post #74 of 776 Old 08-19-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekWave View Post
Funny side note: My wife asked why I was doing it, to which I said "It's for a survey" ...she then responded with, "why do you want to do it? ...do you get a grocery voucher or anything?"


And folks keep asking me to run more tests! I want a year's worth of groceries for free to listen to the same set of files yet again.
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post #75 of 776 Old 08-20-2014, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundPro69 View Post
The only way I can control volume that way is via the Oppo's volume control. Does anyone know if this is internally regulating the volume digitally or through an analog circuitry?
If either an digital or analog volume control is done right, it shouldn't matter.

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Would my use of this control invalidate my ability to tell the file sets apart consistently?
No. Your biggest problem is your ears and the brain attached to it.

Listener training seems to be the biggest weakness of this particular test.
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post #76 of 776 Old 08-20-2014, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blwegrzyn View Post
ABX testing is not good in my opinion as we must stop listening to A before we start B.
What I would like to be able to do is upload A and B, start playing and switch between A and B during the playback so I can catch differences if any without stopping the song.
Is there a testing software that works like that?
It's called Foobar2000 and just about every other legitimate ABX tester.

ABX testers work the way you want them to (as stated above). You must have some misapprehensions about them.
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post #77 of 776 Old 08-20-2014, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Update: It actually pauses the playback. It isn't just a mute. If you rapidly press "Play A" repeatedly you can almost stop the entire playback dead in its tracks. I never noticed that.


At least it seems consistent [as best as I can tell from a quick spin] so it shouldn't act as a tell.
A to A, A to B, B to A, A to X, X to A, B to X, X to B, etc. all seemed the same I think.
\


I'm getting the feeling that what some people think they want is a comparator with a cross fade feature.

I've worked with them and they are not panaceas. They might even create other problems. They give me sonic vertigo because without the pause or a pause with a mild click, I don't know audibly where the alleged change-over was.

The cross fade problem carries with it the potential problems of digital attenuation. In a hardware comparator, this is much more difficult to do right than a simple switchover, especially at loudspeaker levels.

In the digital domain, its just extra complexity for the program.
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post #78 of 776 Old 08-20-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I'm getting the feeling that what some people think they want is a comparator with a cross fade feature.

I've worked with them and they are not panaceas. They might even create other problems. They give me sonic vertigo because without the pause or a pause with a mild click, I don't know audibly where the alleged change-over was.
But you know where it occurred because you chose when it happened by mouse click and additionally you visually saw, for example, the display reading "A" change to "B" [or X].


If when doing a lightning fast transition you keep your eyes closed, and you can't for the life of you tell if the switch even occurred, causing you to then questioning if your button itself might be broken, well there's your proof right there that A and B are audibly equivalent!


On the A/B switch box I used to discover that all manifestations of Audyssey XT room correction aren't truly neutralized when turned "off" (as one would think they should be), at least for the digital inputs, the electrical switch noise of the A/B transition is so faint and innocuous that the physical, mechanical switch noise itself (even when heard through the muffling of my sealed back, circumaural headphones) completely masks it in almost all conditions.


I'm sure a loud thump or click may throw people off, but on what I use it is pretty unobtrusive.

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post #79 of 776 Old 08-21-2014, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
But you know where it occurred because you chose when it happened by mouse click and additionally you visually saw, for example, the display reading "A" change to "B" [or X].
All true but it doesn't work for me as well as a subtle click.


Quote:
If when doing a lightning fast transition you keep your eyes closed, and you can't for the life of you tell if the switch even occurred, causing you to then questioning if your button itself might be broken, well there's your proof right there that A and B are audibly equivalent!
Well yes, but I like to be *really* sure that I can't hear a difference.

Quote:
On the A/B switch box I used to discover that all manifestations of Audyssey XT room correction aren't truly neutralized when turned "off" (as one would think they should be), at least for the digital inputs, the electrical switch noise of the A/B transition is so faint and innocuous that the physical, mechanical switch noise itself (even when heard through the muffling of my sealed back, circumaural headphones) completely masks it in almost all conditions.
I never do listening tests with AVRs. Typically, an computer audio interface with perhaps an outboard headphone amp.

I have maybe a half dozen or more pro grade headphones and IEMs to choose from.

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I'm sure a loud thump or click may throw people off, but on what I use it is pretty unobtrusive.
Right. A really big click or thump can mask differences. It's called temporal masking. What is counter intuitive about temporal masking is that it works both ways in time. It can mask sounds that you already heard.
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post #80 of 776 Old 08-22-2014, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post



No. Your biggest problem is your ears and the brain attached to it.
That's certainly my problem.
I did the test and couldn't tell any difference at all, no doubt because my ears are old and my brain even older.
At least that is how it feels to me, all too often.

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post #81 of 776 Old 08-23-2014, 03:00 AM
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deleted post... re-posted some questions in new threads:

Is my equipment capable of high-res audio playback?
Room acoustics and High-res audio playback?

Although I found it hard to tell the difference between tracks, both versions sounded incredible, but could that be the excellent recording methods used, more than the file resolution at this stage?

cheers
Shane

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post #82 of 776 Old 08-24-2014, 03:16 PM
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I am late to the party, and haven't followed the thread;

My system
MacBook Pro
Musical Fidelity V Link
Inacoustik spdif cable
dCS Scarlatti dac
Nordost Odin balanced line level cables
Genelec 1038 active monitors
Bryston Taurus power distro,
Nordost Quantum 4
Nordost Valhalla power cables
dCs Scarlatti cd/DSDtransport
dCS Scarlatti Master Clock
Variable apature helmholtz resonator
judicious deployment of acoustical treatment to achieve reflection zone and even Schroeder curves without killing the room
Bag End E Trap

My hi rez results:

Mosaic A2
Just My.... B2
On the street Where You Live B2

I now await judgement day!
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post #83 of 776 Old 08-25-2014, 12:37 AM
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post #84 of 776 Old 08-27-2014, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
What the test has done is bring something different to this forum than thousand argumentative posts with references to one or two studies whose weaknesses they don't understand or admit. It is a fresh take on these discussions.

Yes, it rattles the cages of those people who say such tests always generate negative outcome. So we see a lot of defensive posturing. That's fine. It leads to good discussions and raises the curtain on how much we really know about this topic and routine talking points we use, assuming outcomes like what I post above do not and cannot exist.

For all of this, we need to thank Scott and Mark, not throw stones at them for the hard work they put in to generate meaningful discussion on this topic. I know I am super appreciative.
Thanks Amir! You certainly get what I'm trying to do here—shine new light on a controversial subject by involving as many people as possible in their own investigation. Many respondents have said how fun and interesting the exercise is, and I thank them all for their participation.

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post #85 of 776 Old 08-27-2014, 06:07 PM
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You posted the right quote Scott; Amir's comment reflects mine.
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post #86 of 776 Old 08-27-2014, 08:14 PM
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I agree. This is a nice and fun experiment. Got some Sony Hi Rez headphones and hope to try out my laptop for some ABX comparisons to see if it is similar to my HT w.r.t. revealing high resolution audio vs red book CD. Got plenty of plans for the long Labor Day weekend in the USA and hope I can get to this one morning.

Cheers.

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post #87 of 776 Old 08-30-2014, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thanks Amir! You certainly get what I'm trying to do here—shine new light on a controversial subject by involving as many people as possible in their own investigation. Many respondents have said how fun and interesting the exercise is, and I thank them all for their participation.
Funny as much as fun.

For example: the camp which, by far, most commonly (and ignorantly) claims that controlled testing 'always generate a negative outcome' is ...the 'subjectivist' audiophile camp.

Funny!
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post #88 of 776 Old 08-30-2014, 03:53 PM
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Using "Chinese ripoff" version of Monster Copper Turbine PRO In-ear Headphones plugged into a Mid-2012 MacBook Pro Retina playing through iTunes. I choose the "A" version of Just My Imagination. The "B" version of " Mosaic" and the "B" version of "On the Street where you Live" as the HRA files. I am 48 years old and am a pro in the television industry, so I hope I am right.
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post #89 of 776 Old 08-31-2014, 02:29 AM
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I've been testing the files with a

MARANTZ SR6005 as my pre/pro connected to a

PARASOUND 5150 V2 5 channel amp 250 watt RMS into all 5 channels simultaneously at 8 Ohms, and 340 at 4 ohms.

PS AUDIO P3 Power Regenerator/Conditioner.

DAC: BENCHMARK DAC2 HGC capable of playing up to 24/192 and DSD files

Fronts: SALK VERACITY HT2-TL (4 ohm speakers)

Sub: JL E-SUB 10

Center: DEFINITIVE TECH MYTHOS 9
Surr: DEFINITIVE TECH MYTHOS GEM XL

My conclusions are: Just my imagination B2, Mosaic B2 and On The Street Where You Live A2

When and where can we see the actual file bits/sample rates???? If Anyone know please let me know, thanks
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post #90 of 776 Old 08-31-2014, 11:24 AM
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PM your result and setup to Scott and he can provide feedback.
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