Do good cables make an audible difference in sound? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 204Likes
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #541 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,604
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1988 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
What's with the supper opened series of questions?

This last has one takes the cake!

If you honestly don't know the answer to this question, by now, then you never-ever, never-ever, never-ever, will!

So in black and white, the answer is obviously YES!
Stick around; you'll get the hang of things (me).
NorthSky is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #542 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 07:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Stick around; you'll get the hang of things (me).
Sure thing - I already got your number... no worries, just tire kicking, not looking to engage in this debate...
Garidy is offline  
post #543 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,604
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1988 Post(s)
Liked: 586
My favorite cereals is Froot Loops, you?

______________

Question: Why so many audiophiles are hearing a clear audible difference between audio cables?
...And not just loudspeaker cables but also AC power chords?

Is it because with a high resolution system you hear more every individual component? ...Cables included.

And some loudspeaker's manufacturers even recommend some particular cables with their speaker's design.
And some high-end amps too seems to like some cables more over others.

They don't lie, they simply share their experience. I don't doubt them, I believe them.
And I don't care about money. I care about people, and what they say and hear. ...Their happiness.
NorthSky is online now  
post #544 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:08 PM
Member
 
drblank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 230 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I'm really glad that you brought all those points; now we can start analysing them one by one and see (hear) what it means in real terms of audibility.

My own experience with different cables is very limited, so I'm no expert on this.
I did read a lot though, and I read many many many comments by several audio people, who listen to music from their hi-fi stereo sound systems - audiophiles, and who love experimenting with all sort of esoteric loudspeaker cables, interconnect cables, and AC power chords.

And some who put their cables in the freezer for a week or so, then let them warm up for another week, then break them in for a month or so by playing music or test tones 24/7, then if they move them they have to repeat the entire process and so on... By the time they are ready to listen to some music about two months later they just have discovered new improved and better looking and sounding loudspeaker cables, for more money.

Yes, some cables sound better with tubes, others with solid state amps and preamps.
Some cables are better @ reproducing analog music than digital music, too.

* Geometry: Helix, stars, flowers, several wires separated and twisted and having their own dielectric values and made of more silver here, better quality copper there, and teflon covering, and AudioQuest and Nordost, Transparent, Shunyata, KK, Canare, MIT, Monster, Belden, Cardas, Nagra, Arcentos, AudioBliss, Esoteric USA, ... flat, round, square, two-color, three, four, multi-color (dressing), solid core, twisted pairs, 2AWG, thousands of strands, ...

* Shielding: None @ all (KK), double, triple, quadruple, ...interconnects for subwoofers (XLR truly balanced), for turntables with special shielding and acting as anti-skating devices, for CD players (like Trinity) with high prices because low price ones don't cut it (sound quality mind), for Hi-Res Audio music servers, USB asynchronous cables with digital jitter filtering/rejecting, cables with powered batteries, with marble encasing, with proprietary internal x-over (covered by exotic temples made of rare woods, ceramic, aluminum, platinum, rare metal with noise reduction, ...), cables injected intravenously with anti-viruses from foreign countries, cables that are made for low altitude (ocean level), others for high altitude (in space), cables inside shielding aluminum tubes, cables ...

* Filters: X-overed cables for each loudspeaker's section (drivers), frequency filtered below 1Hz and 1,000kHz, DSD cables ready, 64-bit/704kHz hi-res cables, anti-THD cables, intermodulation rejection cables, noise induction cables, coloring flavors (part of the filtering system), cables ...

______

We'll all have to sit down, take our time, compare them all, measure them all, and pick one or few, ...perhaps a coat hanger would do @ the end, to hang ourselves with, or we'll simply pick that old broken lamp in the attic and cut the chord. ...It's free and just need to find that pair of wire stripper we dislocated last time we search for it. ...Could be in the garage inside that car tool box...
I'm not interested in comparing them all. I'll leave that to the cable mfg to compare and for the product reviewers to compare. I've done the majority of comparing cables to the point where I know what I like and I've got cables that do what I want, they sound great, and the only way I would replace them is if I got a boat load of cash and could drop it on the high end MIT Oracle and then trade in the one's I have. But I'm not holding my breath. I was fortunate in getting some used MIT's in excellent condition for a LOT less than anything comparable in their line up new. I'm happy. If someone gave me cables to audition, I might take some time out of my day, but other than that. I'm done listening to and comparing cables. I'm like steak with A-1 steak sauce. I'm DONE. But I'm happy to talk to others about cables until I get sick of it.

I personally would be interested in at least checking out the Bertram cables since they are really weird looking, and the claim I heard was they have 0 capacitance, which I find hard to believe, but they are strange cables. But other than that? Knock yourselves out. I just think that if you haven't checked out MIT, at least throw a set in the ABX test and see if you can hear any harshness from them. So far, I've NEVER heard any MIT cable exhibit harshness.
drblank is offline  
post #545 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:13 PM
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,339
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1693 Post(s)
Liked: 3040
Fun reading, I love good fiction.
imagic is online now  
post #546 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:20 PM
Senior Member
 
koturban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
The "dark side"? is that a technical term?

I've had some discussions with psychologists and you know what some of them have told me?

When someone is introduced to something they don't understand, they typically trash talk it to cover up their own ignorance. It's a typical defense mechanism humans might do when they are introduced to something new. Some change their mind after they become more familiar with it and learn to accept it.

That's happened over and over again historically when some new technology or way of thinking comes out that changes the paradigm people have grown accustomed to.

The same thing happened when the GUI interface for computers first got introduced to the market. I remember all of the PC DOS users trash talking Apple for their GUI for years until they either learned to accept it because Microsoft got rid of DOS and went with Windows. It's funny to see that all of those old DOS fans are now using what they first would trash talk because they were so uncomfortable with the notion of a GUI interface and using a mouse. This happens ALL of the time. Same thing has happened with hybrid and electric cars, when they first came out lots of people were trash talking them and now they are becoming more normal. It's just learning how to accept something you aren't familiar with, and moving on.

Heck, I've run into people that don't think of room treatment that highly, and it's because they don't really know much about it. then I see the same people years later with room treatment because they learned about it and learned to accept the fact that they need it.

Human beings put up their defense mechanisms the second they run across something they don't know anything about and then they eventually change their minds once they get familiar with it. I think that if you don't want to know more about cables, and don't care about it, then move on and talk about something else that you care about.
You don't need to taste the snake oil to understand it.
koturban is offline  
post #547 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by briansxx View Post
Perhaps you felt better in a cooler room, and so you perceived an improvement in sound. Without controlled testing, we can't be sure. I know on some days, my modest system sounds incredibly good to me; on others, much less so. Nothing is changing in the system; it's been the same configuration for a long time. The differences are purely due to changes in my perception, which can be affected by a multitude of variables.
This. Your psychological state has a huge effect on how you interpret your senses including sound. Certainly far more difference than wires can make. I'd like to see some studies into this, how the equal loudness curves change depending on mood.

Basically cables have no effect. The impedance and capacitance and inductance of copper are all constants, there's not much you can do to a piece of copper to change its electrical (and therefore acoustic) qualities.

This thread was answered correctly and concisely in post #391 . Do good cables make an audible difference in sound? . I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, but if you disagree you should do some research into cognitive biases and the placebo effect.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

To look at this from another perspective, why in the world would you trust the advice from someone who stands to make significant financial gain (A/V salesman) by convincing you his advice is correct? Just why? If you want to throw your money away on expensive cables because you genuinely believe that YOU can hear a difference then so be it, I'd rather you sent me the money so I can spend it on something more worthwhile like drugs and prostitutes but I can live with your bad choice.

If you're buying the expensive cables because the salesman/manufacturer/whoever convinced you it would sound better (and you believed them because they're a clever person with many qualifications), I do have a problem with that, you are the reason the audiofool market exists, please come and see me, I'll sell you a spoon that protects you from dragon attacks, and at the reasonable price of just $699.
Ormy is offline  
post #548 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 4,604
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1988 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
I'm not interested in comparing them all. I'll leave that to the cable mfg to compare and for the product reviewers to compare. I've done the majority of comparing cables to the point where I know what I like and I've got cables that do what I want, they sound great, and the only way I would replace them is if I got a boat load of cash and could drop it on the high end MIT Oracle and then trade in the one's I have. But I'm not holding my breath. I was fortunate in getting some used MIT's in excellent condition for a LOT less than anything comparable in their line up new. I'm happy. If someone gave me cables to audition, I might take some time out of my day, but other than that. I'm done listening to and comparing cables. I'm like steak with A-1 steak sauce. I'm DONE. But I'm happy to talk to others about cables until I get sick of it.

I personally would be interested in at least checking out the Bertram cables since they are really weird looking, and the claim I heard was they have 0 capacitance, which I find hard to believe, but they are strange cables. But other than that? Knock yourselves out. I just think that if you haven't checked out MIT, at least throw a set in the ABX test and see if you can hear any harshness from them. So far, I've NEVER heard any MIT cable exhibit harshness.
That's a good post; honest, to the point, friendly and respectful. ...I like it.
...And I'm happy for you, I truly am.
NorthSky is online now  
post #549 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:41 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,384
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
I'm not interested in comparing them all. I'll leave that to the cable mfg to compare and for the product reviewers to compare. I've done the majority of comparing cables to the point where I know what I like and I've got cables that do what I want, they sound great, and the only way I would replace them is if I got a boat load of cash and could drop it on the high end MIT Oracle and then trade in the one's I have. But I'm not holding my breath. I was fortunate in getting some used MIT's in excellent condition for a LOT less than anything comparable in their line up new. I'm happy. If someone gave me cables to audition, I might take some time out of my day, but other than that. I'm done listening to and comparing cables. I'm like steak with A-1 steak sauce. I'm DONE. But I'm happy to talk to others about cables until I get sick of it.

I personally would be interested in at least checking out the Bertram cables since they are really weird looking, and the claim I heard was they have 0 capacitance, which I find hard to believe, but they are strange cables. But other than that? Knock yourselves out. I just think that if you haven't checked out MIT, at least throw a set in the ABX test and see if you can hear any harshness from them. So far, I've NEVER heard any MIT cable exhibit harshness.
Seriously Doc, you are the perfect candidate for some Coconut Audio cables. http://www.coconut-audio.com/index.html Here's the best advice possible from the designer himself:

Quote:
Advice from Mr. Coconut
To get the best sound, you should spend at least 98% of your entire system on our cables, 1.9% on our tweaks, and 0.1% on electronics. Any electronics will do. When buying more expensive gear, it's just a side step into another flavor. A DAC with a plastic vs metal enclosure gives a huge difference in sound, but it's not the DAC itself that gives the difference, it's what's placed around it = the enclosure. When you add something on top of the enclosure, the overall resonant properties of the entire enclosure changes, based on the material of the tweak. This is why our tweaks give greater improvements than "upgrading" the DAC or other component. In fact, many audiophiles get more transparent sound from cheap electronics because they have a lower mass, which results in less colorations.


Our cables are something special, they change the resonant properties of the signal that runs through the wire. This is done using piezoelectric quartz crystal formulas to manipulate the jitter while keeping bit-perfect data.



Our products not only improve the audio system, they improve bad recordings as well. This is because with our crystals, the musical signal is overwritten with a new and better signal that is synergized perfectly with the human brain. The more of our products you use, the stronger the effect becomes, because our products will dominate the overall resonant frequency, and not the electronics themselves.
These Coconut Audio cables are unequivocally the very best cables money can buy. The imaging is absolutely transparent and holographic; the noise floor is so low it's underground; and they're a quantum leap in dynamics and resolution. Read the reviews: http://www.coconut-audio.com/testimonials.html



However, they're not cheap cables. They range from $100,000 for a stereo pair of speaker cables to $1M for a power cord and $2M for a power distributor. http://www.coconut-audio.com/order.html



I can understand if you don't have the means to afford the price of admission, but there can be no denying that these cables can make music sound *BETTER* than live music. In fact, they are better than Viagra because they provide a 4 hour pineal erection and they can increase the intensity of your "eargasm!"



I hope you can afford these cables, but if you can't afford the best cables money can buy, I guess you'll just have to "get over it."


Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System


Last edited by craig john; 08-11-2014 at 08:48 PM.
craig john is offline  
post #550 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rnrgagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Question: Why so many audiophiles are hearing a clear audible difference between audio cables?
...And not just loudspeaker cables but also AC power chords?
.

Cultism fueled by commerce.

Last edited by rnrgagne; 08-11-2014 at 08:54 PM.
rnrgagne is offline  
post #551 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gecko85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post
Cultism fueled by commerce.
I don't doubt at all that many truly believe they hear a difference. Even a "night and day" difference. I'm absolutely sure it's hearing bias/confirmation bias, just as I'm 100% sure that a cable can't be "bright" or "muddled" or exhibit "better imaging".

Panasonic TC-P60ST60, Pioneer SC-1523-K, Oppo BDP-103D, Pioneer PL-550 + Cambridge Audio Azur 640P, B&W CM1 (fronts), B&W CM Centre, Athena Point 5 Mk II (rears), Hsu VTF-2
----------------------------------------
Sony 34XBR960, Onkyo TX-NR414, Sony PS3, Athena Point 5 Mk II (center and fronts), Wharfedale WH-2 (rears), Polk PSW10
Gecko85 is offline  
post #552 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 08:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rnrgagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
I don't doubt at all that many truly believe they hear a difference. Even a "night and day" difference.
Absolutely, and I've lived it.
rnrgagne is offline  
post #553 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 09:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rnrgagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
... just as I'm 100% sure that a cable can't be "bright" or "muddled" or exhibit "better imaging".
I'd guess it's possible to create the illusion if the cable acts as a filter... but then it's no longer a transmission cable.. it's a filter.
rnrgagne is offline  
post #554 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 09:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1674
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Seriously Doc, you are the perfect candidate for some Coconut Audio cables. http://www.coconut-audio.com/index.html Here's the best advice possible from the designer himself:
These Coconut Audio cables are unequivocally the very best cables money can buy. The imaging is absolutely transparent and holographic; the noise floor is so low it's underground; and they're a quantum leap in dynamics and resolution. Read the reviews: http://www.coconut-audio.com/testimonials.html
However, they're not cheap cables. They range from $100,000 for a stereo pair of speaker cables to $1M for a power cord and $2M for a power distributor. http://www.coconut-audio.com/order.html
I can understand if you don't have the means to afford the price of admission, but there can be no denying that these cables can make music sound *BETTER* than live music. In fact, they are better than Viagra because they provide a 4 hour pineal erection and they can increase the intensity of your "eargasm!"
I hope you can afford these cables, but if you can't afford the best cables money can buy, I guess you'll just have to "get over it."
Craig

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #555 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 11:07 PM
Member
 
drblank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 230 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
Who, pray tell, claimed that frequency response, alone, explains how good a system sounds.

And, if we're working in the acoustic environment, you know, speakers, room, you, furniture, etc, how do you measure frequency response? Short term? Long term? Window varying with frequency? What do you use as a proper target for the frequency response?

How about phase response?

What's your point. Of course personal preference is involved. On the other hand, my question about how one might measure frequency response is also entire germane. Can you tell me what that might be?

Perhaps you can tell me when you want more diffuse content in a recording, and when you want less?

How about room size vs. microphone pattern, and the time delay to early reflections? Maybe that has something to do with real physics, as opposed to imaginary mistakes about the Nyquist Conjecture?


Since what "sounds better" to you is your personal preference, what's your point?

Yes, with lots of work, and lots of cooperation (something I don't see forthcoming from you, for sure) one could determine what YOU prefer.

I don't care what that is, frankly, I don't like your attitude.
What are you talking about. You seem to be rambling on and on and getting off the topic and it's getting old..

I don't like your attitude either, so the feeling's mutual. When we do subjective listening tests its only relevant to the listener and only that listener. Unfortunately, we can't do much about that. Everything in our entire "system" which includes the room/acoustics/gear and what content we listen to all plays their respective role in what the listener hears. It would not make any sense for me to compare cables in your "system" when I'm going to use the cables in my "system". Sure, I would LOVE to see a consensus from all of the mfg of audio cables to sit down, figure out what tests, test methodology, equipment, etc. that should be tested on a consistency where they ALL use the same methods and publish findings on each product they sell. That way, the tech geeks can have all the objective measurements (as relevant or irrelevant as they might be) to help determine which cables they might want to check out. But, that IS NOT going to happen any time in the near future. I wish it were the case. Now, what you like in the sound quality is what you like and what I like might be similar or it might be different. I've run into some folks that don't like neutral sounding systems for whatever reason. Then there are those that do. And whatever measurements they can give us will only go so far and then ultimately we have to listen to whatever cables we choose to compare in our "system" and choose amongst the ones we can afford and like.

The first issue is accepting the fact that cables can make a difference depending on the cables and the rest of the equipment and then it's up to the listener to be able to hear any differences to another cable being tested. Yeah, if our room acoustics suck, it will be harder to tell, that's a given. If the person really doesn't know how to listen to differences in cables (with a lot of people don't have that experience) it will take whatever time it takes to learn how to listen to cables. That's just part of the issue. It took me personally many years to really understand what to listen to and in my old room, the room acoustics were not allowing me to hear things properly as compared to other rooms I've been using. So there are always parameters that may prevent us or allow us to hear things in our "system".

one can stack a billion pages of technical information what the mfg does to their hearts content, but it doesn't change what cables we like or dislike. All it does is give us some idea that someone did some work rather than just buying off the shelf cable and terminating it.

The problem is that average person doesn't really want to know every tiny detail about the product was designed and tested as they have other things to do. I've been to wealthy people's homes that can EASILY afford any system they want and you know what some of their attitudes are? They are the types that will call up a dealer, tell them the dollar amount they want to spend and they'll tell them "I want the best you got" and leave it at that. That's how a lot of these ultra expensive systems are sold. Many of them have no desire to know anything other than it's high end audio and it looks and sounds cool. The people with more of a technical background that are really interested in the techie stuff fall into several categories.

Let me ask you a VERY serious question and be 100% honest in the answer. Are you a REAL serious buyer that has the funds and desire to buy expensive cables if you were provided all of the technical measurements to prove that one cable measures better than another? I mean, what is your purpose for your interjecting into the discussion? Just for $hits and grins? Because you are really a seriously interested potential customer of high end cables or are you just hear to argue?

I enjoy talking to others about cables. My original post was intended to give some friendly and helpful advise on what to do and not do when evaluating cables and it's just my opinion based on my experiences. I think I made some valid points that I hoped others would benefit. I also added that it would be great if others would offer their opinions on things to add to help other evaluate cables. That's all I was originally hear for and then people started fueling a lot of technical garbage to act superior when I haven't seen ANYONE come forward that's actually designed high end cables that can compete with these other cable mfg. I just see some people with varying degrees of technical background trying to throw techno information and not really relating it to cables. I'm not hear to discuss how to design a cable, that's not my thing, never was. I leave that to those that do that for a living. If you aren't interested in offering advice and experience on how to evaluate cables, then why are you getting upset with me, when that's all I was originally here for?

I honestly would rather see some useful technical information from cable mfg to see what they can provide on quality of sound measurements and maybe some other measurements that would help us match the cable to the other components we have and that's all that they really need to show. Talking about Fourier analysis at this point is kind of meaningless to me since I'm not trying to design a cable. If you feel that there is some measurement that can be made that proves some aspect of quality of sound, that's great. But I can't do anything about it. I don't have the budget or interest in buying a ton of measurement equipment to do my own test measurements on cables. Again, I leave that to the cable mfg, which do whatever measurements they do and that's why they get paid the big bucks. If you want to talk technical about cables, then call various cable mfg, ask to speak to their engineering staff and see if they'll spend some time indulging in technical discussions to satisfy your curiosity about cables.

The problem you might run into with some cable mfg is that they don't want to release information that gives away anything that they consider to be trade secrets. Coca Cola won't ever give you their recipe for their beverage and neither will Pepsi so the only thing you can do there is do the taste test or not. The same thing is kind of happening in the cable industry. As frustrating as it is for you or I, it's the way it is and until companies start releasing more technical information, it'll probably remain that way.

So again, why are you commenting here? Just for argument sake, seriously interested in buying some higher end cables or do you have any advice on how to audition cables?

Don't take this personally, but I'm just curious. I did explain why I first posted on this topic, now it's your turn.
drblank is offline  
post #556 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 11:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
I've looked at various other places for conducting controlled tests for ABX with audio equipment and I quite frankly, couldn't find any that I felt were without flaws. I've been thinking about this type of situation for many years and have other friends over the years discussing it as well and we keep on coming up with new aspects that can potentially create a flaw that could potentially taint the test.
Ok, now could you please show your testable, verifiable qualifications for evaluating tests of wire, ABX or otherwise.

You're now claiming expertise here, and speaking with the sound of authority, so now you need to show your authority, as recognized beyond you own self.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #557 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 11:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
I've just reached a point where i don't need a blindfold ABX test to hear differences in cables.
So, then, you have no evidence beyond your own untestable, unverifiable experiences.

I understand very well, and I'll put it bluntly, you have just presented solid evidence that you have no evidence whatsoever.

I would suggest that you read this, and learn a bit about how your perceptual apparatus works, assuming, of course, that you are human, and not a computer: http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt/jj/heyser.pptx

This will explain the fallacious nature of your claim quoted above.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #558 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 11:24 PM
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,339
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1693 Post(s)
Liked: 3040
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
So again, why are you commenting here? Just for argument sake, seriously interested in buying some higher end cables or do you have any advice on how to audition cables?
I know you are not addressing me, but the answer is simple: It's an open forum.

Here's my advice on auditioning cables... if you think pricey cables improve the sound of an expensive stereo, perhaps the problem is the expensive stereo doesn't sound all that super to begin with.
Ratman likes this.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com

Last edited by imagic; 08-11-2014 at 11:39 PM.
imagic is online now  
post #559 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 11:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
Just for argument sake, seriously interested in buying some higher end cables or do you have any advice on how to audition cables?

I'm a world-recognized expert in audio perception. I care when people spew bovine diarrhea about the subjects I do real scientific work in.

One of those people would, it appears, be you.

Now, about you, you claim expertise. Mine is in the public record, you can find it lots of places, including AES and IEEE. You claim yours, how about you decloak from that "dr" nic and actually tell us who you are and how you get to claim to do something nobody else has ever done, which is manage to accurately hear small differences in a non-blind test for which you have acknowleged expectations.

Speak up. Or give up. I would suggest giving up.

You have refused to address the science, you have uttered insult ( "rambling", etc), you have not even tried to learn ANYTHING about the subject you are posing as an expert in, you have made a variety of testable claims (without a single bit of evidence), and so on.

Yeah, you don't like my attitude, because you don't like being called out for spewing bovine codswallop in acre-foot volumes.
imagic likes this.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #560 of 604 Old 08-11-2014, 11:55 PM
Member
 
drblank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 230 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post
I'd guess it's possible to create the illusion if the cable acts as a filter... but then it's no longer a transmission cable.. it's a filter.
Well, in the truest sense it is a filter. It's just passing audio signals through it and because there are measurable amount of LCR, it acts like a filter in the process. A perfect cable would have no measurable amount of LCR, and then it wouldn't filter anything because it would be perfectly transmitting the audio signal and not doing anything to it, but unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect cable.

If you have some publication that proves that they don't act like a filter, let me know. I'm all ears on this one. I've heard that they do from a variety of publications and cable mtgs, not just one source.
drblank is offline  
post #561 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 12:00 AM
Member
 
drblank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 230 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
I'm a world-recognized expert in audio perception. I care when people spew bovine diarrhea about the subjects I do real scientific work in.

One of those people would, it appears, be you.

Now, about you, you claim expertise. Mine is in the public record, you can find it lots of places, including AES and IEEE. You claim yours, how about you decloak from that "dr" nic and actually tell us who you are and how you get to claim to do something nobody else has ever done, which is manage to accurately hear small differences in a non-blind test for which you have acknowleged expectations.

Speak up. Or give up. I would suggest giving up.

You have refused to address the science, you have uttered insult ( "rambling", etc), you have not even tried to learn ANYTHING about the subject you are posing as an expert in, you have made a variety of testable claims (without a single bit of evidence), and so on.

Yeah, you don't like my attitude, because you don't like being called out for spewing bovine codswallop in acre-foot volumes.
You have published articles that prove that there is no difference in the sound quality of a cable in an audio system? Where are these articles? I'll look at them.

What did I say I did that no one has ever done?
drblank is offline  
post #562 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 01:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
You have published articles that prove that there is no difference in the sound quality of a cable in an audio system?
Why are you asking me for that? Obviously, you haven't even read what I've written, and you have no idea what I've written here or anywhere else. You're just wasting reams of electrons calling me names, contradicting me without even thinking, and now obviously not even reading what I've written.

Tell you what, why don't you find where I said there is no difference in the sound of any cable. Good luck with that. Really. Let us, while you attempt that, notice that I have pointed out one (albeit extreme) example where cables did make a difference, IN THIS THREAD. Your question is claiming that I hold a position that I have specifically neither stated nor implied.

Furthermore, in professional applications there are certainly issues, ranging from cable capacitance vs. driver circuits, to shielding, to balanced twist, to inductance for low-impedence cables, and so on.

Not as much in most stereos, BUT there are some speakers with really, really wild-*** impedence for which the size of speaker cables, for one example. I did mention that a ways upthread, too, so what is this straw man of yours, anyhow?

Why? Why did you make that up?

I've said your problems with testing are misguided.
I've said your talking about harmonic structure, etc, is poorly informed at best.
I've said you have shown no evidence of qualifications to evaluate an ABX test, or frankly, any other audio test.
I've said that you need to learn what positive and negative controls are.
I've said you're spewing acre-feet of codswallop.
I've said you don't know the difference between math and science.
I've said you have no idea what the word "theory" means.
I've said that mathematics do not "prove" theories. Math is a tool.
I've said that theories are not "proven", they are 'accepted' based on the best available understanding, despite your seeming ideas otherwise. (I will stipulate you were not very clear in your assumptions in that regard.)
I've said that there is no evidence that anyone, at least anyone of at least normal skills and cognition, can avoid a blind test, and succeed with a sighted test accurately for the SOUND. You claim otherwise for yourself. I don't believe it. You need to prove otherwise, and yes, that will involve blind testing.
I've said you can prefer anything you want. I will say now, however, that preference ends at your nose. When you claim "that cable sounds different" you've passed beyond your preference, and now it's a testable issue, so now we need evidence. If you claim 'I like that', well, you could be lying, but I frankly don't care, you can like whatever you bloody well want to AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT GO PAST YOUR NOSE.

I will now point out in your last polemic that you DEMAND that one accept your premise, then you attempt to prove your premise, having demanded acceptance. That's a circular argument. Sorry. Wrong. I could dismember the fuzzy thinking, equivocation, circularities, false premises, etc, in your writing, but frankly, you don't care and don't seem motivated to learn from them, so I am not a-gonna bother.

In none of that is contained a claim that no cable makes a difference, never ever. That's not even a provable claim, since you phrased it as a universal negative.

James D. (jj) Johnston

Last edited by jj_0001; 08-12-2014 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Note, corrected for egregious misphrasing.
jj_0001 is offline  
post #563 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 01:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
A perfect cable would have no measurable amount of LCR, and then it wouldn't filter anything because it would be perfectly transmitting the audio signal and not doing anything to it, but unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect cable.
There can be no such thing as a cable having no parallel C, no series L, and no series R. Physics does not permit this.

None the less, what cables do can be quite easily measured, and for nonlinear, as well as your proposed linear, behaviors.

What's more, cables can be evaluated in any number of ways in regard to what effect they will have on a given piece of equipment, and can be evaluated in-situ by measuring them while attached to such equipment. Rolloff, noise, etc, can be measured and characterized, and its relevance established in regard to the known performance of the human ear, as originally investigated by a Herr Helmholtz, and more thoroughly by a Dr. Harvey Fletcher, whose work still stands the test of time today, nearly 100 years later.

That's what we do in the real world.
markrubin likes this.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #564 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 03:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
Cvetan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Fun reading, I love good fiction.
I was thinking more on the lines of science fiction, "Lost in Space".
Cvetan1 is offline  
post #565 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 03:42 AM
Member
 
drblank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 230 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post
How many times do I have to tell you to find out what control conditions are, and how they will spot this in a flash?
And can you always know which test subject is guessing vs actually knowing how to answer a question? I was in one listening test and the person that gave me some questions to answer about the sound quality asked me questions and used terms I wasn't familiar with and I just gave an answer not really caring how accurate it was.


On another note, why can't you just give your Do's and Don't with how a person can do their own evaluations of an audio product in their own home? Why does everything have to be in some "controlled" experiment trying to prove some hypothesis? I don't think that's being helpful to the average consumer. The average consumer needs to know how to evaluate product in the privacy of their own home since the majority of audio gear consumers aren't going to be a test subject in some listening test.

In our homes, the only person that has to be convinced of anything is ourselves. We aren't trying to prove anything other than whether or not we can hear something or like a product so we can buy it.

I hope this makes sense to you. I guess you just want to take some academic hypothesis testing approach and I want to take the, I'm a consumer trying to do my own private evaluation on a product trying to decide if I want to buy it or not. In my scenario, I don't need control conditions other than my system is setup the way it's setup and all I'm doing is changing a component to see if I like it. What the outcome is is only really important to me and only me because I'm the only person that has to be convinced and what I do in the privacy of my own home is my business. If I listen to a cable in my own home, I could give two figs about anyone else's test comparison.
drblank is offline  
post #566 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 03:47 AM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 23,081
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 472
please move on....

thanks
Skytrooper likes this.

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
markrubin is offline  
post #567 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 05:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RayDunzl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,311
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Liked: 562
Do good cables make an audible different in sound?

There seems to be two answers, and I now provide two solutions:

Yes - use the cables you like.

No - use the cables you like.
markrubin, eljr and jj_0001 like this.

I'll be back later...


1.5RQ > digits > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot
RayDunzl is online now  
post #568 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 06:25 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1674
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Do good cables make an audible different in sound?
Not one person qualified to answer that question has said no. The issue is that the wrong question is being asked. The question that should be posed is 'Are good cables expensive?' The answer is no. A corollary question should be 'Are expensive cables necessarily good?' The answer to that question is also no.
Ratman, Cvetan1, imagic and 2 others like this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #569 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 09:49 AM
Member
 
RickJames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Not one person qualified to answer that question has said no. The issue is that the wrong question is being asked. The question that should be posed is 'Are good cables expensive?' The answer is no. A corollary question should be 'Are expensive cables necessarily good?' The answer to that question is also no.
That's much too logical a statement for this thread, not to mention way too short!
jj_0001 likes this.
RickJames is offline  
post #570 of 604 Old 08-12-2014, 09:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rnrgagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
If you have some publication that proves that they don't act like a filter, let me know. I'm all ears on this one. I've heard that they do from a variety of publications and cable mtgs, not just one source.
You can measure the effect of virtually any cable, and what's at play is the audiblity of the differences.

Competent designs are generally measured to be inaudible within the context of a sound system and human hearing capabilities.

See if you can follow the chain;

Logic dictates that if a human can't detect a .5db variation in an audio signal and a cable only provides a .005db difference, (regardless of how that difference presents) it is inaudible.
That's all before it gets to the speaker, which will be in the +/- 3db range and then the room which can have swings up to 30db and that's before we get to the human...
(There's also the dispersion characteristics of the speaker relative to the listening position.)

But that's not all, in order to hear any difference you'd have to somehow ignore the very real masking effect of a complex audio signal.

Then you'd need to somehow negate the power of the subconsious mind which leads you to hear what you want to hear.

The "subjectivist" mantra is to take the cables' measurement as valid when convenient, ignore the environment and its' variables, and suggest you rely on the human hearing to make your audiblity judgement.

If you can't see the flaw in that..well, save up for some Coconut...
CruelInventions likes this.
rnrgagne is offline  
Closed Thread Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off