Do good cables make an audible difference in sound? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 604 Old 07-26-2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Is the initial impedance/frequency plot one you measured with the 24swg cable, or the standard plot for the speaker,
Standard plot for the speaker.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
and the changes that you say will happen with the bad cable are those which you know/can predict will happen due to experience and knowledge, or actual test results?
Predicted based on simple electrical engineering calculations.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Not having done the testing myself, I was wondering how a resistor in line with a speaker would change it - I would have thought it would have added to the crossover globally rather than at a specific frequency range.
Is that based on emotion, intuition, measurements, or a detailed knowlege of electrical engineering?

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
This is something that I will one day have to try myself. A cable would do much the same, but add some inductance and capacitance to the whole speaker too.
At the frequencies involved, the predictable influences of the cable's inductance and capacitance are small.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I would have thought that the impedance and capacitance of a wire would have had more effect, and as the voltage and current changed, so would the effect on the speaker. How much I don't know, but I would think longer run would make a difference.
The results are what they are. If there were errors in facts or calculation, then point them out!

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
We'd have to measure that to see by how much and if it were audible.
It is not that hard for me to run over to the Radio Shack store that is 300 feet from my front door, buy a spool of 24 gauge speaker cable and post the measured impedance of a Primus P363 in my store room with and without that cable.

What's going to make it worth my while?

The pleasure of someone saying that my calculations aren't worth anything? ;-)

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I agree that long runs of cables will have more effect than shorter runs, but by how much and how audible is the question.
I did the engineering homework required to estimate how much, and I used my experience to estimate how audible. Not good enough for some people, I guess.

Why did I bother to even do what I did?

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
The AWG table does tell us something though - that all copper wire of the same cross sectional area (twisted or solid) will have the same resistance because it doesn't make any comments or add any factors for variations (mains wire regs books add factors for how the cable is clipped, or if it's in insulation etc for example).
An AWG table is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to estimating the influences of possible differences in cable construction, insulation, twisting, etc. It's an abuse of the AWG table to use it to reach the conclusions mentioned above. I do know the right references to use to estimate those things as well and am applying them to everything that I write here.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I would also assume any copper awg number would have the same capacitance and inductance (so wire is wire).
You get to be wrong.

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Therefore, choosing the correct cross sectional area cable for the application will mean that even mains flex will sound the same as the equivalent CSA speaker wire.
I'm not so easily convinced by so little information, which is especially easy for me to say because I know far more.

However, if I did that part of the electrical engineering homework, I can easily predict that many people would play the skeptic's card, insult the quality of my engineering work, and not be convinced in any way. Why bother? If people can't believe my simple analysis why should they believe my more complex one?


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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
The main difference is that the insulation for the two will be different due to the presumed application (one carries higher volts and current and can be lethal). Indeed, some in-wall wire looks very much like mains flex.
If you want to say so.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I would think that most people on this forum would choose a decent size cable rather than an obviously very thin cable.
I recommend using 12 gauge all of the time because it reduces the influences I pointed out in my analysis to rediculously low levels. Lookng at my analysis I would further estimate that the relatively long 24 gauge speaker cable would cause a possibly audible difference, but it might leave a lot of people scratching their heads if for example just any music was used in the listening test, and if quick switching under the control of the listeners were not available.

Probably some place around 18 gauge the listening test might turn into random guessing under the most ideal circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I think what needs to be tested is the audibility of changes of different gauge wire and different lengths to show where the differences lay. That's something that I think would provide conclusive evidence and I wonder if that has been done before and what the results were.
Everybody says they want listening tests, but recent experience says that very, very few are willing to spend even 30 minutes doing them. Why bust one's butt for hours setting up listening tests when the real interest is that low?

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Amirs testing shows the differences between cables of different make up (copper vs aluminum for example) but I'd be interested to see a test of the above.
Amir's tests are all about numbers, and involve zero listening tests. They are mostly just numbers, and most if not all of the cables are likely to sound the same in a listening test. Anybody who has actually done the work will tell you that doing a set of measurements is a walk in the park compared to doing as many good listening tests.


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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I can't do it myself right now but if no one else does, I will have to have a go one day myself.
Have fun!

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
The other thing I was wondering about is that when comparing cables over such a broad frequency range, if you don't know where bad cable is going to effect that frequency range, unless it was an extremely large db difference it would be very difficult to hear it because our sonic memory is intrinsically bad and usually the differences are very small.
All true.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Oh, and my initial answer to the OP s question as to why less people here would say that cables make a difference, is because this is the AV SCIENCE forum, so less people here are likely to be duped by certain claims than those perhaps less well informed outside of a community like this. Just a guess though. So I would think that given the awg table, all good cables will sound the same.
The telling question relates to people's perceptions of casual listening evaluations. If they find them more credible, then they are more likely to be swayed by anti-scientific claims.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Being a science oriented forum, it's great to see some real data on various aspects of the discussion.
But apparently not convincing enough.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Oh, and can anyone answer my previous question regarding the differences in cable compared to the differences in the manufacturing tolerances of components in a speaker crossover?
Well cheap speaker crossovers have capacitors in them that might have tolerances of +80/-20. Add those two numbers up and its 100%. If you are lucky someone is selecting higher tolerance parts out of larger groups of those very loose tolerance parts. It is probably cheaper in most cases to just buy better parts. A good speaker might use +/- 5% parts.

BTW, there are variations in the drivers, as well.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Like I say, all speakers are going to be different due to different tolerances, yet no one ever seems to say that they can hear a difference in their speakers.
Good point!

People hear what they want to hear in many cases.
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post #182 of 604 Old 07-26-2014, 12:43 PM
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Yes, better wires do make a difference, although I would refrain from getting caught up in expensive cable hype.

I paid 0.50 a foot for Monster speaker cable some years back and you *can* tell a difference in sound quality. Even my wife, who doesn't give a hoot about such stuff, can tell the difference.
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post #183 of 604 Old 07-26-2014, 12:45 PM
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Even my wife, who doesn't give a hoot about such stuff, can tell the difference.

From the kitchen!

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #184 of 604 Old 07-26-2014, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
How much inductance and capacitance do the cables introduce though?
Not enough to make any audible difference with the lengths used in the home. It can be an issue with speakers in pro-sound, so to get around that the amps are placed close to the speakers, not close to the mixing console. The balanced +4dB sends used in pro-sound are good to at least 1,000 feet, whereas you don't even want to run 100 foot speaker cables if you can help it.

Are there better conductors than copper?

Silver, for one. It works no better. To get the same result with copper you just need to use a cable 5% shorter or 5% heavier in gauge. That would make some sense if silver cost 5% more than copper, but it costs a hundred times what copper does. Audiophools who insist that higher cost must equal better results will pay the price, but any sensible person with a modest bit of education in acoustical engineering won't.
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post #185 of 604 Old 07-26-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
Even my wife, who doesn't give a hoot about such stuff, can tell the difference.

From the kitchen!
But of course. Most likely she cannot see it from the kitchen.
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post #186 of 604 Old 07-26-2014, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
Even my wife, who doesn't give a hoot about such stuff, can tell the difference.

From the kitchen!
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But of course. Most likely she cannot see it from the kitchen.

do this in your own thread guys

thanks

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #187 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 03:56 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions guys, especially arnyk who obviously took some time to respond to each point in turn, much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk
Is that based on emotion, intuition, measurements, or a detailed knowlege of electrical engineering?
It was just a question and I guess an intuitive guess which as Bill pointed out was wrong.

Like I said before, I've done some listening tests of my own and similarly video as well, and haven't heard or seen any differences myself (I'd not tested using deliberately bad cable so maybe that was an error on my part), so I'm trying to learn what the differences will be by asking those who know and say that we should be hearing a difference. Many of you may have done the testing etc both scientifically and otherwise with test results, but I've not seen them, so sorry if I'm asking for old data etc, which must be quite boring for you.

If speaker wire makes an audible difference, wouldn't it be easy to plot a frequency/impedance chart of a speaker and just keep repeating the test with different wire combinations? Speaker designers like Bill do it all the time when they're designing speakers and testing crossover circuits, so surely that would be a good and easy way to see scientifically what the differences are? If someone has done just that, does anyone have a link?

mcnarus - if you could do with a milion dollars, you should get your wife to go in for the James Randi listening test

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #188 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 06:00 AM
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If speaker wire makes an audible difference, wouldn't it be easy to plot a frequency/impedance chart of a speaker and just keep repeating the test with different wire combinations?
It is easier than that. Just measure the electrical frequency response at the speaker terminals. The speaker is never going to sound any better than the signal delivered to it, right? OTOH, if all of the wires deliver the same signal to the speaker +/- some small tolerance, then how can one sound better than another?

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Speaker designers like Bill do it all the time when they're designing speakers and testing crossover circuits, so surely that would be a good and easy way to see scientifically what the differences are? If someone has done just that, does anyone have a link?
Let's put it this way. To prepare for ABX tests we did careful measurements of frequency at the speaker terminals using a variety of test frequencies with very good meters. In the process I measured amp frequency response with a wide variety of cables and a wide variety of speakers. Our tolerance on the measurements was +/- 0.1 dB. Never had any problems.

Here's the point - if a speaker wire manufacturer could show with measurements that his wire delivered an appreciably cleaner signal, why wouldn't he measure it and advertise it? If he could show that his wire made a difference in an ABX test, why wouldn't he do it?
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post #189 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

People hear what they want to hear in many cases.
Clearly there is no place for this in audio engineering but is this so bad in home audio?

I just can't see appealing to just one sense when it comes to listening to music.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #190 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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It is easier than that. Just measure the electrical frequency response at the speaker terminals. The speaker is never going to sound any better than the signal delivered to it, right? OTOH, if all of the wires deliver the same signal to the speaker +/- some small tolerance, then how can one sound better than another?



Let's put it this way. To prepare for ABX tests we did careful measurements of frequency at the speaker terminals using a variety of test frequencies with very good meters. In the process I measured amp frequency response with a wide variety of cables and a wide variety of speakers. Our tolerance on the measurements was +/- 0.1 dB. Never had any problems.

Here's the point - if a speaker wire manufacturer could show with measurements that his wire delivered an appreciably cleaner signal, why wouldn't he measure it and advertise it? If he could show that his wire made a difference in an ABX test, why wouldn't he do it?
So a speaker wire should be like a preamp, add nothing to the sound. Simply carry the signal without influence.

So all the people who hear a difference between cables in their system would have to be hearing new induced distortion or correcting distortion from a bad wire they currently use, correct? (assuming there really is a sound difference)

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #191 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
It is not that hard for me to run over to the Radio Shack store that is 300 feet from my front door, buy a spool of 24 gauge speaker cable and post the measured impedance of a Primus P363 in my store room with and without that cable.

What's going to make it worth my while?

The pleasure of someone saying that my calculations aren't worth anything? ;-)
For anyone doubting Arny's logic and intelligence, you should read the above post and what followed up in the very same post:

Quote:
Amir's tests are all about numbers, and involve zero listening tests. They are mostly just numbers, and most if not all of the cables are likely to sound the same in a listening test. Anybody who has actually done the work will tell you that doing a set of measurements is a walk in the park compared to doing as many good listening tests.
If you are a dummy like me (pls refer to video that Ray post), you will think the following are contradictions in what Arny has written:

1. Arny won't walk 300 feet to get some real data to match the theory. I not only spent that time, but also spent real dollars to bring real numbers/data to the discussion.

2. Arny says he won't do the measurements because someone will say "calculations aren't worth anything." Yet he proceeds to say my data doesn't mean anything either because it is not a listening test. Then why talk about theory and measurement of speaker cables? We should just talk about listening tests which Arny does not have to make his case.

3. In the parallel thread, we did indeed perform listening tests. After passing one test after another, most of which was created by Arny himself, no one has accepted the results of the tests. Seems like *we* are the last group to accept the results of our own listening tests! So one would think that the whole thing about "show me DBT" is a verbal tactic, not an intention to learn or use that data for anything. Of course, if the DBT is not forthcoming or has negative outcome, we like that!

Now, you see why I said we are not as logical or smart as Arny. The proof is that Arny has taken the above positions that are illogical to us. But because he is so smart, he is able to make sense out of them in his mind. If you doubt that, read this post he made in the debate thread:

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I suspect that most people with IQs in the triple digits can figure stuff like this out if they really try. ;-)
I went to get my IQ measured and they said they could not get any reading so it must be zero. I told them that I didn't think they should hook up the wires to my toes. They said I was not smart enough to know if that was or was not right. Seemed logical so I left.

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post #192 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
If speaker wire makes an audible difference, wouldn't it be easy to plot a frequency/impedance chart of a speaker and just keep repeating the test with different wire combinations? Speaker designers like Bill do it all the time when they're designing speakers and testing crossover circuits, so surely that would be a good and easy way to see scientifically what the differences are? If someone has done just that, does anyone have a link?
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...289#post139289

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post #193 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 09:48 AM
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Can anything be discussed without writing a novella about why and how Arny is always wrong?

Just state our technical counterpoints without the sarcasm and cloaked personal attacks (of anyone that disagrees). We would be grateful.
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post #194 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 09:55 AM
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Clearly there is no place for this in audio engineering but is this so bad in home audio?/
An entire industry exists because of it. Of course it is so bad.

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I just can't see appealing to just one sense when it comes to listening to music.
What sense would you like audio designers to address other than hearing?
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post #195 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Can anything be discussed without writing a novella about why and how Arny is always wrong?

Just state our technical counterpoints without the sarcasm and cloaked personal attacks (of anyone that disagrees). We would be grateful.
This thread has been better than most in that regard.

IMHO of course.

But yeah, it could be better yet.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #196 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Here's the point - if a speaker wire manufacturer could show with measurements that his wire delivered an appreciably cleaner signal, why wouldn't he measure it and advertise it? If he could show that his wire made a difference in an ABX test, why wouldn't he do it?
Exactly! Same thing with high(price) end electronics seller that posts here. If SPDIF interface's lower jitter is proven to be audibly better than HDMI, why wouldn't he advertize so? Instead, he says he is going to punt that question. Anyone with upper double digit IQ or higher would smell a rat in such advertizement. What an insult to people's intelligence.
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post #197 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Can anything be discussed without writing a novella about why and how Arny is always wrong?

Just state our technical counterpoints without the sarcasm and cloaked personal attacks (of anyone that disagrees). We would be grateful.
Bears repeating.
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post #198 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 10:06 AM
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Just state our technical counterpoints without the sarcasm and cloaked personal attacks (of anyone that disagrees).
As the point Arny made, if he could do that, why wouldn't he?
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post #199 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
An entire industry exists because of it. Of course it is so bad.

What sense would you like audio designers to address other than hearing?

All that they feel they can.

It's not all on them. Much falls on the consumer.

If someone is content to listen to music in a black painted room with no windows while drinking tap water on equipment sequester behind a wall I have no issue at all with that.

Personally I'd rather change hobbies if I were compelled to listen like that. Even if the room had perfect acoustics.

For me, I want audio equipment that appeals to me visually also. And yes, even the feel and other non audio properties are important.

Taste I cannot implore the audio manufacturers to address so I shoulder that myself. Weather it is the coffee I drink in the morning (black only), sparkling water with lemon I'll likely have in the afternoon or what cognac I have after dinner.

and yes even smell I address without going overboard. (again, this is totally on me t the manufacturer)

there is more to it of course but you get the idea.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #200 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
For anyone doubting Arny's logic and intelligence, you should read the above post and what followed up in the very same post:


If you are a dummy like me (pls refer to video that Ray post), you will think the following are contradictions in what Arny has written:

1. Arny won't walk 300 feet to get some real data to match the theory. I not only spent that time, but also spent real dollars to bring real numbers/data to the discussion.

2. Arny says he won't do the measurements because someone will say "calculations aren't worth anything." Yet he proceeds to say my data doesn't mean anything either because it is not a listening test. Then why talk about theory and measurement of speaker cables? We should just talk about listening tests which Arny does not have to make his case.

3. In the parallel thread, we did indeed perform listening tests. After passing one test after another, most of which was created by Arny himself, no one has accepted the results of the tests. Seems like *we* are the last group to accept the results of our own listening tests! So one would think that the whole thing about "show me DBT" is a verbal tactic, not an intention to learn or use that data for anything. Of course, if the DBT is not forthcoming or has negative outcome, we like that!

Now, you see why I said we are not as logical or smart as Arny. The proof is that Arny has taken the above positions that are illogical to us. But because he is so smart, he is able to make sense out of them in his mind. If you doubt that, read this post he made in the debate thread:



I went to get my IQ measured and they said they could not get any reading so it must be zero. I told them that I didn't think they should hook up the wires to my toes. They said I was not smart enough to know if that was or was not right. Seemed logical so I left.
Who has not accepted that you heard a difference?
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post #201 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Now, you see why I said we are not as logical or smart as Arny. The proof is that Arny has taken the above positions that are illogical to us. But because he is so smart, he is able to make sense out of them in his mind. If you doubt that, read this post he made in the debate thread:


I'm pretty sure I can make sense out of his arguments in my mind as well. Furthermore - I've read many of his posts in various threads, and in most cases he dispenses with strictly technical language in favor of using terms and analogies we can understand. Honestly, arguing with him on some of these points is akin to me as a bartender arguing with a cardiologist about a heart diagnoses - where he suggests a angioplasty and I suggest a margarita.
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post #202 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 10:46 AM
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Who has not accepted that you heard a difference?
I said accepting the results of DBT tests. That part has been refused to be done:

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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
The fact that one "suddenly can" [hear differences] when seemingly nothing has changed would set off alarm bells for anyone unencumbered by confirmation bias.
A "DBT ABX" test that Arny created and I ran exactly as he prescribed is positioned as generating results due to "confirmation bias." If DBTs are subject to confirmation bias, let's throw them out then. Alternatively, even with our low IQ we can conclude that folks are religious about their views in denying this fresh data, "science and DBT results" be damned.
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post #203 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 11:39 AM
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I said accepting the results of DBT tests. That part has been refused to be done:



A "DBT ABX" test that Arny created and I ran exactly as he prescribed is positioned as generating results due to "confirmation bias." If DBTs are subject to confirmation bias, let's throw them out then. Alternatively, even with our low IQ we can conclude that folks are religious about their views in denying this fresh data, "science and DBT results" be damned.
I will post my response in the other thread.
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post #204 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 12:16 PM
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Totally on point!

As a hobbyist I don't mind spending a couple hundred dollars on a cable or two BUT I don't want cable that is inferior to Radio Shack at 10 times the price.
I think this is what most people do. But here and elsewhere, the issue bogs down with these scenarios where folks are assuming someone -- and clearly some do -- is spending tens of thousands on wire and ignoring other more critical things like amplification, speakers etc. I'm sure this must happen with some regularity or that business model would fail, but you'd think it happens with striking regularity considering how often it gets talked about on the net.
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post #205 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 02:03 PM
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Here's the point - if a speaker wire manufacturer could show with measurements that his wire delivered an appreciably cleaner signal, why wouldn't he measure it and advertise it? If he could show that his wire made a difference in an ABX test, why wouldn't he do it?
Very true - then as a comparison with other cables you could choose which wire would have the least effect.

I've thought much the same about mains cables - if a manufacturer thought a bog standard mains lead would choke their high end amp/receiver/whatever, why do they supply one in the box and not supply or suggest a special one be used in the manual.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #206 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Hi Done,

So it is possible.

Though that is a test of amps and not wire isn't it? I guess you were just showing me proof of concept

Cheers.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #207 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 02:50 PM
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If speaker wire makes an audible difference, wouldn't it be easy to plot a frequency/impedance chart of a speaker and just keep repeating the test with different wire combinations?
It would be very easy. The fact that not a single manufacturer/seller of 'high end' wire has ever posted such a chart says volumes.

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post #208 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 03:25 PM
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Clearly there is no place for this in audio engineering but is this so bad in home audio?

I just can't see appealing to just one sense when it comes to listening to music.
No one implies you have to use only one sense listening to music. Nor base your buying decisions solely on that one sense.
But, if a buying decision is based on sound alone, then that is what is discussed here or should be. Preference is not testable or needs to be. On the other hand, the sonic part of the decision can be tested, again not necessary. Discussions come about when testable claims are made not when preferences are put forth.
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post #209 of 604 Old 07-27-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Hi Done,

So it is possible.

Though that is a test of amps and not wire isn't it? I guess you were just showing me proof of concept

Cheers.
The output of the amplifier is modeled as a simple RLC network. You could add a cable to it but given the amplifier characteristics it would not matter. Feel free to enhance the simulation by adding a wire model (like a lossy tline), but I have done so in the past and it is swamped by the amplifier and speaker for any reasonable situation. Just too lazy to do it again. I have another thread that compares interconnects but any differences for the cables I simulated are well beyond the audio band. - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #210 of 604 Old 07-28-2014, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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No one implies you have to use only one sense listening to music. Nor base your buying decisions solely on that one sense..

I have seen it suggested many times here. in fact, that was what was suggested in the post i answered.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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