connecting a speaker of 143 RMS im to 167 RMS home theatre receiver - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 07-24-2014, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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connecting a speaker of 143 RMS im to 167 RMS home theatre receiver

the problem is my original home theatre speaker (167RMS) fried up. tried repair it gets fried over and over again. now getting the same speaker of same series of sony home theatre but its power in RMS is less than my home theatres power. ( mine one is 167rms and i am getting 143rms speaker). is it good to connect it ? or it will harm my theatre or damage the speaker ? thanks
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post #2 of 31 Old 07-24-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by emspecial View Post
the problem is my original home theatre speaker (167RMS) fried up. tried repair it gets fried over and over again. now getting the same speaker of same series of sony home theatre but its power in RMS is less than my home theatres power. ( mine one is 167rms and i am getting 143rms speaker). is it good to connect it ? or it will harm my theatre or damage the speaker ? thanks
Just a guess, but it sounds like you're clipping your amplifiers output stages.

Questions:

What make and model receiver?
What make and model are you old and new speakers?
Where are your base and treble settings at?
What kind of music do you listen to mostly?
If your stereo Volume went to 10 - how close would you say get to 10?

Let's start with this.

Last edited by Garidy; 07-24-2014 at 11:50 PM.
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post #3 of 31 Old 07-24-2014, 09:30 PM
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There have been many discussions on AVS about power handling, power ratings, and blowing drivers - the consensus is that only one thing blows up speakers: too much power.

If you are really cranking the volume until your amplifier starts clipping, it can actually put out significantly more (distorted) power than its rating - and that is what can blow your speakers. You should consider getting speakers with higher power rating - something with high sensitivity with high max SPL (high max volume) - maybe JBL or some other PA speakers.

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post #4 of 31 Old 07-24-2014, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
There have been many discussions on AVS about power handling, power ratings, and blowing drivers - the consensus is that only one thing blows up speakers: too much power.

If you are really cranking the volume until your amplifier starts clipping, it can actually put out significantly more (distorted) power than its rating - and that is what can blow your speakers. You should consider getting speakers with higher power rating - something with high sensitivity with high max SPL (high max volume) - maybe JBL or some other PA speakers.
I don't think we can make that assumption here. We should gather the data that I requested first.

I suspect that he's clipping his amp - yes, but firstly, he should stop clipping his amp because clipping can kill most any size, consumer voice coil. In the wattage range that he's provided, heavy clip could take them out, well under 30-minutes. Plus clipping is a direct enemy of fidelity.We need to gain an idea of his wattage.

If his speakers are rated in the 150 Watt range, he really shouldn't be putting much more than 75-Watts RMS into them anyway, we need data to be of any real value to him. Let's not just tell him to go buy a bigger amp, let's educate him on as many levels as he will permit. If his amplifier proves only to be 100-watts per channel (in theory), I would wager a large sum of money that he has less than 70-watts of actually usable power (under 1%THD).

In the spirit of that thought:

Clipping occurs when the amplifier power supply rails, run out of current, which causes the peaks of the transits to truncate and flatten out, over several degrees of a transit, which in turn increases the applied current to the voice coil, in a fashion similar to applying direct DC. The EIA standards for rating thermal tolerance of Voice coils, is base on pure AC tone bursts, not highly distorted clipped tones that resemble square waves more than a sine wave. The DC thermal tolerance of a speaker is often a mere 25% of it's EIA rating. In heavy clip, say a state that truncates 180 degrees of a transients wavelength: a 100-Watt/channel AVR would be able to burn most VC's in under 30-minutes, with ratings of 200-watts and under. Higher Wattage speaker would also fail, but it would take longer. Even a 400 Watt- VC would fail with a DC like input of 25-Watts, it would likely not last an hour. Heap on some bass boost and moments of current recovery creating peaks and these time can be cut in half.

Industry Fact:
99% of the time, RMA's relating to VC death are due to an amplifier being pushed beyond their intended range of operation, placing them in a state of being insufficiently heeled in current. Current is the root of Wattage. When the Voltage collapses, the waveform collapses and becomes less alternating and more of a direct current, when this occurs, the driver start to effectively receive DC. Once 500ms of a waveform has collapsed it's full burn time.

He may also be experiencing DC-offset issues, which will continue to burn VC's regardless of output levels.

Once we have the answers to the questions that I have requested, the field of assumptions will be narrowed.

PS Can you send us pictures of your burnt drivers?

Last edited by Garidy; 08-01-2014 at 09:37 PM.
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post #5 of 31 Old 07-24-2014, 10:45 PM
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"Clipping occurs when the amplifier power supply rails, run out of current"

When the voltage swing of the output signal tries to exceed the rail voltage, regardless of how much current is being supplied

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post #6 of 31 Old 07-24-2014, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
"Clipping occurs when the amplifier power supply rails, run out of current"

When the voltage swing of the output signal tries to exceed the rail voltage, regardless of how much current is being supplied


You're also correct, but only to a point: the point being limited by the availability of current as current is the root of Voltage. No current, no Voltage. It's all about the coulomb: no c no k, no play, Ray!

Wattage is based on two factors of current an one factor of resistance: IxIxR. Voltage is a product. Which means that it's based on at least to other factors I & R; with no R, there can be no Voltage either.

The Voltage limits are primary limited by the availability of current in the power rails. These limitations dictate the component tolerance for the other amplifying stages. When the current sags the Voltage will drop; however, in a heavy clipped state the current can hike to a maximum state and apply a portion of the waveform with direct current, for several ms/degrees, instead of spreading it out over the full 360-degress of propagation. To say that the Wattage is higher, isn't necessarily always the case, what is always the case, a significant to large portion of the waveform has become DC, DC Wattage is the primary killer here.

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post #7 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 12:12 AM
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You're kinda goofy, I'll leave you alone.

I'll be back later...



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post #8 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Just a guess, but it sounds like you're clipping your amplifiers output stages.

Questions:

What make and model receiver?
What make and model are you old and new speakers?
Where are your base and treble settings at?
What kind of music do you listen to mostly?
If your stereo Volume went to 10 - how close would you say get to 10?

Let's start with this.
i have sony home theatre DAV-DZ340K its 1000rms. and i am connecting a speaker of Sony home theatre DAV-DZ150K its 850RMS

Last edited by emspecial; 07-25-2014 at 01:48 AM.
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post #9 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 01:35 AM - Thread Starter
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i play songs once in a while mostly dubsteps and play movie at max (which is 34 in my home theatre and. i am new to this so i exactly dont know when my amp starts clipping but yeah sound at max still remains crystal clear.
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post #10 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 01:41 AM - Thread Starter
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and my only single speaker makes this problem rest of the speakers dont get burned no matter i play at max levels. one day my speaker stopped working. i gave it to the repair shop. they said coil was okay he did something else to fix it. but after few months speaker again stop working and started smelling ( volume was max at that time) . now again i took it to the repair shop they changed the coil. coil the put was cheap hand made coil ( guy was making coil in front of my eyes) so it again got burnt within 10 minutes.
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post #11 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
You're kinda goofy, I'll leave you alone.
He's been here before. Keeps coming back under a new avatar. He'll go away soon, always does.

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post #12 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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what about helping me ? o.O
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post #13 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by emspecial View Post
what about helping me ? o.O
You are overdriving the tiny little speakers you have.

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post #14 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 09:24 AM
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This is a HTIB "receiver" / "speaker" combo - it is very unlikely that you can upgrade either of them with acceptable results - the amplifier is designed to drive 3 ohm speakers (per the owners manual)

If you want to really blast your music, you are going to need a real AVR and PA type speakers that can handle insane amounts of power without damage (not accounting for sound quality) - that should be loud enough to be heard across state lines - something like these:

DENON AVR-1513 5.1ch Home Theater Receiver 3D ready - $110

Behringer Eurolive B212XL
Two-Way Passive Loudspeaker with 12" Woofer, 1.75" Compression Driver, and 200-Watt Program Power Capacity - $160 (ea)

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post #15 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
now again i took it to the repair shop they changed the coil. coil the put was cheap hand made coil

Somehow I don't think you're talking about the voice coil
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post #16 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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yes iam talking about voice coil.
by the way the new 143 watts rms speaker i am gettingvis 3 ohm impedience.
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post #17 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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currently all i want to know is, if i connect 143 RMS speaker in 165 RMS amp will it damage the speaker ?
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post #18 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 02:48 PM
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"currently all i want to know is, if i connect 143 RMS speaker in 165 RMS amp will it damage the speaker ?"

No. Connecting the speaker will not damage it.

Something else has to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emspecial View Post
i play songs once in a while mostly dubsteps and play movie at max (which is 34 in my home theatre and. i am new to this so i exactly dont know when my amp starts clipping but yeah sound at max still remains crystal clear.
Something like that could do it.

Which speaker is blown? L/C/R surround or subwoofer?

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post #19 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
"currently all i want to know is, if i connect 143 RMS speaker in 165 RMS amp will it damage the speaker ?"

No. Connecting the speaker will not damage it.

Something else has to happen.



Something like that could do it.

Which speaker is blown? L/C/R surround or subwoofer?
front left speaker. its tweeter was also blown right after the main speaker. i took both for repair , now tweeters seems to be working fine but the speaker still does this problem .
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post #20 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 09:50 PM
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You're also correct, but only to a point: the point being limited by the availability of current as current is the root of Voltage. No current, no Voltage. It's all about the coulomb: no c no k, no play, Ray!
Wattage is based on two factors of current an one factor of resistance: IxIxR. Voltage is a product. Which means that it's based on at least to other factors I & R; with no R, there can be no Voltage either.
Good grief, you have no idea how a SS amp works. The output is the input voltage times the gain and the voltage at the output will be there whether or not a load is connected. The connected load then determines the current proportional to the signal voltage.


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The Voltage limits are primary limited by the availability of current in the power rails.
No. The voltage limits are a function of the power supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
however, in a heavy clipped state the current can hike to a maximum state and apply a portion of the waveform with direct current, for several ms/degrees, instead of spreading it out over the full 360-degress of propagation. To say that the Wattage is higher, isn't necessarily always the case, what is always the case, a significant to large portion of the waveform has become DC, DC Wattage is the primary killer here.
No. There is no DC in a clipped waveform, just like there is no DC in this;



The same is true for a clipped waveform; before clipping the transfer function of the amplifier is linear. At clipping the transfer function becomes non-linear and harmonics are created relative the the shape of the transfer function. Sum these the same way as in the video I linked and you see the flat waveshape which looks like DC, but is not.
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post #21 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emspecial View Post
currently all i want to know is, if i connect 143 RMS speaker in 165 RMS amp will it damage the speaker ?
If you connect a speaker that has a 143w max power rating to an amplifier that has a maximum output power of 165w (rated at 1% distortion) and turn the volume to max you will get clipping and a large amout of distortion - this will cause the amp to output more than its rated power. That would mean feeding nearly 200w of power into a 143w speaker - yes, this will eventually damage the speaker.

Now in reality, that tiny little HTIB receiver can't output 165w of power to all the speakers in any real world situation - those specs have been worked over by the marketing department to sound more impressive.

Nor can those little tiny speaker dissipate 143w - do you realize how much power that really is? You would be ale to fry an egg on a speaker that small dissipating that much heat. Who knows what the real power handling capability is.

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post #22 of 31 Old 07-25-2014, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Good grief, you have no idea how a SS amp works. The output is the input voltage times the gain and the voltage at the output will be there whether or not a load is connected. The connected load then determines the current proportional to the signal voltage.
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
No. The voltage limits are a function of the power supply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
No. There is no DC in a clipped waveform, just like there is no DC in this
Wow - thank you for tackling that. There was so much mis-information in there I didn't even know where to start.

One thing I would like to add: The primary thing that limits the amount of current that an amp can supply is its power dissipation capability. That is why when a modest amplifier must source a lot of current to drive a low impedance speaker, it can do it but eventually it will get too hot and shutdown.

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post #23 of 31 Old 07-26-2014, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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actually the speaker i am telling about was connected with 143w sony amp. this was the power output of amp itself not of the speaker. so the real capablity of the speaker is still unknown. but both speakers ( mine pulled from 167w output amp and the one i am getting of 143w sony amp) are both same in shape and size, in cone size etc. so what should i do ?
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post #25 of 31 Old 08-03-2014, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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well just bought the speaker and connected it . the speaker is more heavier and looks even better in quality from my original ones. and i have connected it, i hear no clipping or any stress on speaker. its just working perfect in full volume..
still should i be worried about anything ?
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post #26 of 31 Old 08-04-2014, 01:06 AM
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Wow - thank you for tackling that. There was so much mis-information in there I didn't even know where to start.
My post is now missing, as well as the one I was responding to. Interesting as I didn't delete mine, not hear from the mods that I had broken some rule (I'm sure I didn't) that warranted deletion.

I think Glimmie in #11 has it sussed. Our little friend is back.
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post #27 of 31 Old 08-04-2014, 03:37 AM
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Wow - thank you for tackling that. There was so much mis-information in there I didn't even know where to start.

One thing I would like to add: The primary thing that limits the amount of current that an amp can supply is its power dissipation capability. That is why when a modest amplifier must source a lot of current to drive a low impedance speaker, it can do it but eventually it will get too hot and shutdown.
I'll dispute the idea that any one condition, whether voltage limiting, current limiting or thermal limiting is always the primary limit.

My experience is that the answer varies with the situation.

Looking across serveral years of AVS posts, thermal does seem to show up the most, but how much of that is due to cabinet ventilation problems is hard to say.

Also, voltage limiting is AKA clipping and the human ear can tolerate quite a bit of that without the listener being conscious of it. So, it might be happening far more, but nobody notices it to complain unless it gets really bad. In contrast thermal problems are pretty obvious - the AVR shuts off.
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post #28 of 31 Old 08-04-2014, 06:14 AM
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its just working perfect in full volume..
still should i be worried about anything ?
What does 'full volume' mean? If it's turning the volume up all the way then yes, you should be worried, about blown speakers.

Somehow I don't think you're talking about the voice coil

+1. Voice coils are not replaceable. The entire coil/cone assembly must be replaced. And no repair shop winds their own voice coils.

DAV-DZ340K

You're never going to get clean output at high volume with that AVR. It may claim 1,000w total, but that's advertising piffle. According to the spec sheet its power consumption is 160w. It can't have more output than what it consumes. You have to split that 160w among all the channels, while accounting for conversion efficiency and the power consumed by the rest of its circuitry. I'd place no more faith in the accuracy of the speaker thermal ratings.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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post #29 of 31 Old 08-04-2014, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice

... And no repair shop winds their own voice coils.

DAV-DZ340K

Google DAV-DZ340K and the first hit is Sony India.

Anything is possible in India.




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post #30 of 31 Old 08-04-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
According to the spec sheet its power consumption is 160w. It can't have more output than what it consumes. You have to split that 160w among all the channels, while accounting for conversion efficiency and the power consumed by the rest of its circuitry. I'd place no more faith in the accuracy of the speaker thermal ratings.
Sorry, that's just incorrect. The power rating posted for amplifiers and the like is an appliance equivalence. A heater rated at 2000W is going to draw 2000W, but an amplifier will draw a varying amount due to signal and load so it is given an average rating of the sum of all the quiescent currents (+ ADC/DAC preamps etc if integrated or AVR), plus all poweramp channels outputting a continuous 1/8 rated power into load. I have a Yamaha pro amp with a rating of 400W (IIRC, not there to check, but not far off it anyway) on the rear, but I have actually measured it to rated output spec of 2x1100W/ch/4R.
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