AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: The Results So Far - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 09:56 PM
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Bob, the forum software was fixed a while back so that you no longer have to keep putting a name in follow on quotes. It works now as it does on other forums. SO you don't have to use "tt" anymore .

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post #272 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
You're confusing two different usages for the term "Dynamic Range." The DR database figure is actually what used to be called the "crest factor" or the ratio between the peak and mean levels in the file. It is not the same as the 96dB often quoted as the dynamic range of the CD medium, which, simply put, is the ratio between the maximum level and and the 16-bit noise/quantization floor.
I didn't know that. Thank you!

I've since gone on a quest to discover how to determine this value myself and have thus far failed. A run through Audacity did show me a frequency spectrum which clearly showed the differences between the high-res and standard-res variants, but since the dB axis was continually falling as the frequency rose, that didn't seem like a proper way to measure highs and lows.

Has anybody calculated the dynamic range of these tracks as it pertains to the CD medium? Do they differ?


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post #273 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 10:09 PM
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Bob, the forum software was fixed a while back so that you no longer have to keep putting a name in follow on quotes.
Oh really, let me check that right now...

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It works now as it does on other forums. SO you don't have to use "tt" anymore .
It does indeed. ...They fixed it very early this morning; 3:00 AM here West (6:00 AM back East).

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post #274 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post


As you can see, this loud peak in the L ch appears at about 1m53.04s in Mosaic A2 versus 1m53.03s in Mosaic B2. That's subtle but perceptible in A/B switching.

I encourage Audacity veterans to check my work.
I measured the latency in Audition and it is about 11 milliseconds so pretty close to your value.

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post #275 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 10:12 PM
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Oh really, let me check that right now...

It does indeed. ...They fixed it very early this morning; 3:00 AM here West (6:00 AM back East).
It has been working for a while, maybe as far back as a week.

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post #276 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 10:16 PM
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It has been working for a while, maybe as far back as a week.
Lol, I wasted my time typing more than needed for a week.

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post #277 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 11:19 PM
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20 bits is sufficient (Bob Stuart from Meridian); not 16 (not enough), no need @ 24, @ 32, and @ 64.
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for playback or no ? .............................. dunno I've got some pretty good sounding 16/44.1
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Both; record, and playback. ...Me too, I got some excellent sounding Red Book CDs.
Me also but they are mostly on metal (hdd's now)
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Sampling rate (frequency) is more important than bit depth (quantization). ...According to audio gurus.
kinda like 24/48 and 24/96 ☺☺☺I try not to listen to a lot of audio guru's (hardly any ) though most are promoting (selling ) something and not always (usually) all that objective IMO .

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Have a great weekend my friend.
U 2 any cool plans ? I just had a rocky road ice cream cone it was yummie !more pre season football tomorrow

Looking forward to the bears birthday party tomorrow got him a shiny new shovel hope they have a game on TV

Time to do some Neflix bandwidth (bit rate )and timing testing and trace rout tests . ATT recently activated a direct peering agreement with Neflix (Netflix paid the bandwidth extortion to ATT like Comcast ) and post results in another thread here Beats watching paint dry ☺☺.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #278 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Clearly we need a "Take 3" version of this test, properly level matched and time aligned, and all test scores currently posted should be discarded.
Assuming that you're right (and I'm not saying you aren't, I haven't seen the files, and have a strong tendency to decline to get dragged into this), a 10 millisecond offset, at least with some material, will be a pretty strong giveaway, assuming a properly windowed, properly arranged ABX method.

I'd be worried if it didn't show up.

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post #279 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I measured the latency in Audition and it is about 11 milliseconds so pretty close to your value.

Yikes. Well, now we know one thing you should have been hearing.

It's not bandwidth.

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post #280 of 457 Old 08-08-2014, 11:51 PM
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post #281 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 12:52 AM
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...Stories of our lives. ...In reply to tubetwister just above.
ATT Netfix stream is fine getting 5800 kbps (Netfix Super HD bitstream) reliably ramps up decently fast no CDN in middle either ☺☺☺

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post #282 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 12:57 AM
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post #283 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 01:26 AM
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Abso!utely Amir. ...Everything clocking faster and spinning faster too. ...Less errors less quantization needed.
Mere numbers. What matters is what the ear reliably perceives.
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post #284 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 01:45 AM
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Mere numbers. What matters is what the ear reliably perceives.
Works for me .......my needs are rather simple in the respect that 16/44.1 and .AAC work fine here for listening
here ,no need for vaporware unless I cant otherwise get an equally recorded and mastered tune in any other media .

Playing the campy b/w 1950's Sci fi, the day the earth stood still on Netflix on the TV in here now lookes like the telecine and scan was 4:3 . I never stretch pictures so will have to watch it as is with pillar bars and all at least this Sony led has decent blacks so it's all good .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #285 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 04:54 AM
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I didn't know that. Thank you!
You're welcome.

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I've since gone on a quest to discover how to determine this value myself and have thus far failed.
The Pleasurize Music Foundation offers a VST plug-in that will indicate the DR as the track plays: http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/es/es/download

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Has anybody calculated the dynamic range of these tracks as it pertains to the CD medium? Do they differ?
The DR value will not be affected by the sample rate or bit depth.

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post #286 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
I didn't know that. Thank you!

I've since gone on a quest to discover how to determine this value myself and have thus far failed. A run through Audacity did show me a frequency spectrum which clearly showed the differences between the high-res and standard-res variants, but since the dB axis was continually falling as the frequency rose, that didn't seem like a proper way to measure highs and lows.

Has anybody calculated the dynamic range of these tracks as it pertains to the CD medium? Do they differ?

J River 19 has an option to compute the DR rating and EU R128 automatically and it works for all bit-rates and encoding (Wav/FLAC,ALAC, DSD, etc.).


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post #287 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:18 AM
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Yikes. Well, now we know one thing you should have been hearing.

It's not bandwidth.
It certainly is not bandwidth as I can't hear the ultrasonics.

My testing by the way did NOT involve switching from one track to the other as they were playing. I would play one segment, and then the other. I don't think I could have detected 10 millisecond difference there.

I also did a test of Arny's key jingling by resampling to 44 Khz myself using Audition CC which has zero latency. Here are those results:

=======
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/24 20:27:41

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling amir-converted 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

20:27:41 : Test started.
20:28:07 : 00/01 100.0%
20:28:25 : 00/02 100.0%
20:28:55 : 01/03 87.5%
20:29:02 : 02/04 68.8%
20:29:12 : 03/05 50.0%
20:29:20 : 04/06 34.4%
20:29:27 : 05/07 22.7%
20:29:36 : 06/08 14.5%
20:29:44 : 07/09 9.0%
20:29:55 : 08/10 5.5%
20:30:00 : 09/11 3.3%
20:30:07 : 10/12 1.9%
20:30:16 : 11/13 1.1%
20:30:22 : 12/14 0.6%
20:30:29 : 13/15 0.4%
20:30:36 : 14/16 0.2%
20:30:41 : 15/17 0.1%
20:30:53 : 16/18 0.1%
20:31:03 : 17/19 0.0%
20:31:07 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 17/19 (0.0%)

=========

So I don't think delay is a factor for my type of ABX testing.

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post #288 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
It certainly is not bandwidth as I can't hear the ultrasonics.

My testing by the way did NOT involve switching from one track to the other as they were playing. I would play one segment, and then the other. I don't think I could have detected 10 millisecond difference there.

So I don't think delay is a factor for my type of ABX testing.
I was thinking the same thing. Was just experimenting with Foobar ABX this morning and it would be too disturbing to hop from track to track back and forth as others suggested. Glad to hear that the time factor should not effect those that are attempting to critically listen to certain musical segments.

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post #289 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 10:32 AM
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Was just experimenting with Foobar ABX this morning and it would be too disturbing to hop from track to track back and forth as others suggested.

Then don't. It is completely unnecessary to do so in order to complete a foobar ABX test; you don't have to make any switches whatsoever if you don't want to! [This is a common myth about foobar ABX testing though.] Indeed when many audiophiles evaluate, say, two power amps they don't do any switching either. They listen to one amp, disconnect it, connect the other one and then proceed to listen to it. They are exclusively trusting their memory for what the other amp sounded like when they had it wired up in their system previously, and you can use foobar ABX exactly the same way, if that's how you prefer it:


Take two songs from your playlist remembering that the top one in the list is always labeled "A" and the bottom one is always labeled "B", throughout the whole test, and proceed to ABX them.


Foobar ABX doesn't force you to do ANY comparsions at all if you don't want to. It just asks you, at each trial, to vote if the current song playing, called X, is either in actuality the "A" source you know from having heard it in the past, or the "B" source.


Listen to X at each trial and then proceed to cast your vote, simple as that! Listen to X for minutes, hours, days, months, whatever; there's no rush. You aren't forced to do any comparisons whatsoever, you simply have to answer one simple question before moving on to the next trial: "Is this song 'X' you are allowed to listen to over and over again for as long as you'd like (or to loop a smaller subsection of it over and over again, if that helps you) A or B? If during the test you forget exactly what A or B sounds like you have two friendly little reminder buttons at your disposal, however there's absolutely no requirement to hit them at all, if you don't want to. If you feel your memory for what "A" sounds like is the way you like to make your choices, then by all means go by that, cast your vote at each trial, and then let foobar tally your score.

Foobar ABX doesn't force the test subject to make any comparisons at all if they don't want to, it allows the test subject to make comparisons should they choose to, but the important thing to remember is a full foobar ABX test may be carried out without making any comparisons at all, if that's what the test subject prefers, and indeed that's more typical for how most forum reviews I read here [as well as audio magazine reviews] are carried out.


Foobar ABX is great because by doing at least 11 trials or so, of correct answers, it shows that the odds of having done that by just dumb luck are almost "astronomical", or "0.0%" as it calls it by a rounded number. Conversely, people here guessing which version of which song is the hi-res version have a 1 in 8 chance of receiving a perfect score for all three songs, simply by dumb luck alone or guessing via a coin flip.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #290 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 10:59 AM
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I agree. Was planning to basically repeat the same style of test as close too my previous postive results.

Also will try it with some headphones if the specs are okay.

It was not immediately apparent how to generate the report. But I only had like 20 minutes to dabble this morning.

Thanks!
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post #291 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 11:02 AM
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In theory people could have aced this test, on Mosaic A2 versus B2, never having hit any of the comparison buttons at each trail (because they didn't feel any need/desire to), simply because they are sensing the added delay before the music comes out whenever they hear the song Mosaic A2. Perhaps not likely, but possible.

P.S. Please wait for new corrected versions without any delay between the two cuts before you waste any of your time trying to hear a difference on these two. [I have not tested for a timing difference on the other two songs, "On the Street" and "Just Your My Imagination" , but of course that needs to be done too.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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Is there any indication that more versions of the files will be presented??? Listening to the music in long segments is what Amir and I seem to prefer. I don't believe it makes a difference for myself. Perhaps we can hope for more participation???????

There's no pleasing the objective folks. More versions of the files is welcome but at the same time just fuels the people that want to negated all of it.

My decisions will be inductive reasoning again probably. Just using the ABX wrapper. 😁

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post #293 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 04:52 PM
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I would be shocked if Scott/Marked decided to listen yet again to another set of criticism regarding these files and go do a bunch more work only to be told they should do more. They have done their job. They took a lot of feedback, created two sets of files. Where was such analysis and feedback process in all the previous tests of this type? None, right?

Speaking of objectivists, hardly any of them bothered to take the test. Our own mentor, Arny, did not. Why should folks spend more time and energy only to have 99% of the vocal members not participate?

I think there is substantial results already.

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post #294 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 05:27 PM
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As a consumer end user I'm more interested in a revealing ah ha moment that hires has yet to provide on it's own merits not some obscure claimed unverified test results on a couple of forums that some may consider substantial and some may not . Show me an ah ha moment that happens every time I spin up some hires that doesn't require me to hunt for small differences or train my ears then I might believe in a practical use that something beyond watching paint dry has been achieved here.

One shouldn't have to take any tests or do training to have one of those ah ha moments and realize yes this is better
than the old way although that doesn't seem to be the case here .

Fair and balanced let the folks decide !.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #295 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 05:37 PM
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As a consumer end user I'm more interested in a revealing ah ha moment that hires has yet to provide on it's own merits not some obscure claimed unverified test results on a couple of forums that some may consider substantial and some may not . Show me an ah ha moment that happens every time I spin up some hires that doesn't require me to hunt for small differences or train my ears then I might believe in a practical use that something beyond watching paint dry has been achieved here .

I think many have had those moments but better masters will do that


HDTracks sent me a coupon and I used the DR Database to research these recordings. Sometimes you can find HDTracks identified specifically.
When the DR values are the same \, I just buy the CD. When HDTracks has a higher DR ratings, I will buy it but I never buy the 192K version with an $8 premium over the 96K version.


Why pay more for them to up-sample the same source?


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post #296 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
As a consumer end user I'm more interested in a revealing ah ha moment that hires has yet to provide on it's own merits not some obscure claimed unverified test results on a couple of forums that some may consider substantial and some may not . Show me an ah ha moment that happens every time I spin up some hires that doesn't require me to hunt for small differences or train my ears then I might believe in a practical use that something beyond watching paint dry has been achieved here .
I highly recommend checking out the book by Floyd Toole "Sound Reproduction". It hits on most of the flawed paths taken in the audio / surround formats. Which is another component of the "Just like when I was there moment" This Ah-ha moment typically won't happen with 2 channel audio from a studio as I presume none of us were in the recording room for any of these three tracks. Despite assertions from Mr. Toole's book, I am still a huge fan of stereo....😱

Another eye opener is the assertion that two distinct consumer groups are out there. Namely musicians and audio Engineers that are super sensative to first room reflections etc... VS. the rest....
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post #297 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 05:55 PM
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I think many have had those moments but better masters will do that


HDTracks sent me a coupon and I used the DR Database to research these recordings. Sometimes you can find HDTracks identified specifically.
When the DR values are the same \, I just buy the CD. When HDTracks has a higher DR ratings, I will buy it but I never buy the 192K version with an $8 premium over the 96K version.


Why pay more for them to up-sample the same source?


- Rich
Absolutely a better recording and master will do that in a heartbeat. I have several hires tracks just for that reason
but not particularly for the reason they are hires ☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #298 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 06:00 PM
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Absolutely a better recording and master will do that in a heartbeat. I have several hires tracks just for that reason
but not particularly for the reason they are hires ☺☺
Me too. Have several surround high resolution mixes of albums that are way better then the clouded two channel (tape) master I wore out. 😱😃
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post #299 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 06:02 PM
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I highly recommend checking out the book by Floyd Toole "Sound Reproduction". It hits on most of the flawed paths taken in the audio / surround formats. Which is another component of the "Just like when I was there moment" This Ah-ha moment typically won't happen with 2 channel audio from a studio as I presume none of us were in the recording room for any of these three tracks. Despite assertions from Mr. Toole's book, I am still a huge fan of stereo....😱

Another eye opener is the assertion that two distinct consumer groups are out there. Namely musicians and audio Engineers that are super sensative to first room reflections etc... VS. the rest....
Quote:
This Ah-ha moment typically won't happen with 2 channel audio from a studio as I presume none of us were in the recording room for any of these three tracks.
Not looking for an just like I was there ah ha moment just an ah ha moment that hires on its own merits and nothing else is readily apparent to be much better than the old way even to Joe six pack with no training e,g. practical use.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #300 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Absolutely a better recording and master will do that in a heartbeat. I have several hires tracks just for that reason
but not particularly for the reason they are hires ☺☺

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
Me too. Have several surround high resolution mixes of albums that are way better then the clouded two channel (tape) master I wore out. 😱😃
OTOH hand I have hires (SACD, and hires downloads and same same 16/44.1 media same sources and all both being recorded identically in hires but only differing in playback resolution that sound same same to me.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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