AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: The Results So Far - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Both; record, and playback. ...Me too, I got some excellent sounding Red Book CDs.
Which, like the fabled single golden ear necessary to prove 96kHz sounds different from 44.1 kHz (not due to artifacts), should be dispositive evidence. Or is there some level better than 'excellent'?

Amir, John Atkinson, Bob Stuart, the ghost of Julian Dunn, any and all cheerleaders for high rez -- please address this:

excellent sounding Redbook releases, testified to by many a 'subjectivist' audiophile as well as the debby downers on the other side, do exist.

So, are you saying they would sound *significantly better* as hi rez?
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post #302 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
Me too. Have several surround high resolution mixes of albums that are way better then the clouded two channel (tape) master I wore out. đŸ˜±đŸ˜ƒ
Are you quite sure they are *effectively* high resolution (that is, their dynamic range *could not* have been encompassed by Redbook bitdepth?)

I think fair qualitative 'resolution' comparison of versions with different channel numbers is really a rather hard problem to crack. The difference in mixes is quite overwhelming of other differences.
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post #303 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
Another eye opener is the assertion that two distinct consumer groups are out there. Namely musicians and audio Engineers that are super sensative to first room reflections etc... VS. the rest....
The fascinating part is that the average listener *prefers* having some of those 1st reflections.

So the question becomes, are your preferences average or 'engineer'.
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post #304 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Abso!utely Amir. ...Everything clocking faster and spinning faster too. ...Less errors less quantization needed.
Of course the amount of ultrasonic hash goes through the roof too...oops. Gotta deal with that! Typically SACD players employ a 50 or 100kHz lowpass filter after the DAC, for starters. So those yummy megaHz of sampling get knocked down to 200kHz max...wait, what's the most common PCM max rate these days?

It's all such a ludicrous dance.

My other favorite 'steps' are how so many lauded 'DSD' relaases have gone through a 'PCM narrow' stage, and especially , how so many 'vinyls' had a digital cutting stage
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post #305 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Foobar ABX is great because by doing at least 11 trials or so, of correct answers, it shows that the odds of having done that by just dumb luck are almost "astronomical", or "0.0%" as it calls it by a rounded number. Conversely, people here guessing which version of which song is the hi-res version have a 1 in 8 chance of receiving a perfect score for all three songs, simply by dumb luck alone or guessing via a coin flip.
fwiw 16 trials is considered the minimum to have a statistically 'powerful' result.

In any case do NOT just run trials and stop when you reach a 'positive' signficance value. Decide on a number of trials first, *then* stick to that. If you want to do more, do another test with a predetemined set of trials. Then aggregate the numbers. Otherwise it's cherry picking.
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post #306 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Which, like the fabled single golden ear necessary to prove 96kHz sounds different from 44.1 kHz (not due to artifacts), should be dispositive evidence. Or is there some level better than 'excellent'?

Amir, John Atkinson, Bob Stuart, the ghost of Julian Dunn, any and all cheerleaders for high rez -- please address this:

excellent sounding Redbook releases, testified to by many a 'subjectivist' audiophile as well as the debby downers on the other side, do exist.

So, are you saying they would sound *significantly better* as hi rez?
ECM Record label, Channel Classics, Reference Recordings (HDCD), DMP, Analog Production Originals, AudioQuest, Chesky, FIM, Concord Jazz, ...

____________

* Bonus video:


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post #307 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
fwiw 16 trials is considered the minimum to have a statistically 'powerful' result.
I mentioned getting at least 11 correct scores in the post you quoted, meaning 11/11 which foobar says "The probabiltiy you are guessing is 0.0%" [Which as I mentioned is their rounded verion of saying a binomial probability of .00048828125.] That's "powerful" in my book and handily beats the commonly sighted p<.05 significance level [5.0%].


16 trials is for wimps who need to make a mistake or two along the way.


http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #308 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
* Bonus video:
Even through his crummy camcorder mic I can hear he has terrible room acoustics including a bad case of slap echo[listen to the reverberation as he speaks by his Technics reel-to-reel. That's coloring his music too]. If instead of wasting SERIOUS monEy on those idiotic speaker cables [lower left of image] and , omG, "cable lifts" [lower right] he spent some time on room treatment, he might have a reasonable system.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #309 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 09:03 PM
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But Myles is a professional audio reviewer for Positive-Feedback Online, and has a PhD.
He is actually the Senior Assistant Editor: www.positive-feedback.com

...And now working with Peter, the camcorder man (videographer) for AV Showrooms, a very nice guy.
Myles is now the Executive Editor: www.avshowrooms.com

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post #310 of 457 Old 08-09-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I think fair qualitative 'resolution' comparison of versions with different channel numbers is really a rather hard problem to crack. The difference in mixes is quite overwhelming of other differences.
Exactly. These are effectively different mixes of the albums intended for a multi channel presentation. Down mixed 2 channel is a joke under these conditions.

Gaugster

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post #311 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
But Myles is a professional audio reviewer for Positive-Feedback Online, and has a PhD.
He is actually the Senior Assistant Editor: www.positive-feedback.com

...And now working with Peter, the camcorder man (videographer) for AV Showrooms, a very nice guy.
Myles is now the Executive Director: www.avshowrooms.com
Just goes to show education notwithstanding .....you don't have to know anything (or have proof of superiority )to pimp hires music,exotic speaker cables or cable elevators, all you need are perhaps a healthy dose of disinformation to disseminate to the folks ,*maybe* questionable and or simply only monetary motives and a handy cam ! I have one of those ..Sony handy cam that is ??

oh about the video .......... music didn't sound bad at all on lossey You Tube actually pretty good (maybe 192kbps ? )AAC vbr on a hires capable playback chain and studio tracking phones .

Ever notice lot of hires demos often use similar music why is that ? ? anybody ? I have my hypotheses on that. why not a
Stones remaster ?

What's the bit rate or is it bit depth of phatt studio analog tape (think a big Studer reel to reel or one of the big Sony RtR or on Πconsumer tape )what is it 13-15 bits at best I don't know ?

Maybe I'll watch some paint dry ... or some more sales pitches on You tube like the video linked above demoing music on lossey AAC (You Tube) that sound pretty good and somewhat fly in the face of the hires augment or the arugment he was pitching altogether no doubt the tapes sound V.G. maybe better no problem with that vs You Tube .

Think those $150,000 dollar turntables they are pitching in another video are worth it ?
I wouldn't mind a restored Garrard 301 on a nice plinth with a nice SME arm on it lot's cheaper maybe not as good but good enough for most .

more funny are some of the stupid viewer comments ! e.g,
"The sound stage was good! It sounded like Mozart was standing on my desk, right between my computer speakers " (there are more) if that's truly the case one could argue all anybody needs is high bit rate AAC variable or no?

Note : the presenter from AV Showrooms in the above video (*may have shot himself in the foot so to speak in a way ) pitching pre recordrd analog tape when he clearly stated at ~3:42 "it's not going to get any more real than this " when he was introducing a sample in the video. Was that perhaps as a consequence of what he said an unintended endorsement for vbr.AAC (You Tube playback bty).......probably not but one could introduce that argument maybe ? TBH it sounded pretty good and bolsters the argument different formats can sound pretty good and not necessarily need to be hires at all .? â˜șâ˜șâ˜ș

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #312 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Are you quite sure they are *effectively* high resolution (that is, their dynamic range *could not* have been encompassed by Redbook bitdepth?)
Redbook does not compress dynamic range, it puts a noise floor near the bottom of its theoretical dynamic range. I say "near the bottom" because music can be accurately discerned when its amplitude is well below the noise floor, whether analog or digital.

That noise floor can be easily managed to be difficult or impossible to hear, even by Fielder's wildly overblown standards. People seem to like to pretend that perceptually shaped PSD dithering doesn't exist. It has been a check box in the menu systems of good but inexpensive production tools for well over a decade. I'll bet money that all of the media that has been produced for ABX-ing on AVS used flat PSD dither. Mine did, for sure.

However this is all moot because of the difficulty of obtaining a commercial recording or even a master tape that taxes the dynamic range of even naively produced redbook-class recording (e.g one with flat PSD dithering).

Then there is the problem of hearing the digital or analog noise floor in a listening room, even those with really good 20-ish dB SPL noise floors.

At this point, if people were complaining about nasty hissing sounds in the quiet passages of their favorite songs or movies, and the cause was the distribution media, it could be fixed by checking a tic box on the menus of the production tools that are in common use.

About the only complaints I hear about noise during playback usually relates to systems with gain staging problems and most of that is in the context of portable audio. It is very old news that if you want to be bothered by noise floors, listen with headphones or earphones! ;-)

I'm sitting here smiling because one of the most vocal advocates of so-called high resolution distribution formats on these forums has also waxed poetic about the alleged superlative sound quality of his analog tapes. Analog tape makes Redbook look good, very good!

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post #313 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Even through his crummy camcorder mic I can hear he has terrible room acoustics including a bad case of slap echo[listen to the reverberation as he speaks by his Technics reel-to-reel. That's coloring his music too]. If instead of wasting SERIOUS monEy on those idiotic speaker cables [lower left of image] and , omG, "cable lifts" [lower right] he spent some time on room treatment, he might have a reasonable system.
That's all fine and good, and I heard it too.

However, it appears that this is a needle drop transcribed to analog tape...

Correction: My bad, Yarlong records distributes on analog tape:

http://www.yarlungrecords.com/analog.html

However, it still stands that if the dynamic range of RedBook gives you a headache, the dynamic range of Analog tape will give you a brain hemorrhage.

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post #314 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Redbook does not compress dynamic range, it puts a noise floor near the bottom of its theoretical dynamic range. I say "near the bottom" because music can be accurately discerned when its amplitude is well below the noise floor, whether analog or digital.

[...]

Then there is the problem of hearing the digital or analog noise floor in a listening room, even those with really good 20-ish dB SPL noise floors.
Good morning Arny. As always your insight into audio theory amazes me.

I was wondering if you could help rationalize the above two statements for me. The first statement says we can hear music below the noise floor of the channel. The second says we can't hear music below the room noise floor??? How can they be both true statements?

As to room listening noise being "20-ish dB" as I have explained and cited AES Journal papers, there is no such thing perceptually. Our hearing system is not sensitive to all frequencies equally. So any noise rating must be plotted as a graph, not told as a single number. I explain this in my article on dynamic range of listening spaces: http://www.madronadigital.com/Librar...amicRange.html

This graph gives actual measured and surveyed data on the noise floor of different home listening spaces:



As you see, the best ("min") listening space measured easily beat the threshold of hearing. In the most sensitive range of 1 to 3 Khz, the measured noise of the room was around -20 spl. In other words 40 db lower than your "20 db" number.

Do you have measurements of your room or other surveys that shows something different? And can explain why you keep using a single number to represent the noise in the room when such a thing goes against fundamentals of psychoacoustics?

We have had this argument many times Arny. Indeed this is why I wrote that article so that I don't have to keep repeating the same answers . It would be nice if you didn't fight back with words but shared actual specifics. Measurements and listening tests data is what I would expect from you.

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post #315 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 08:47 AM
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I used outboard dbx II on my tape machines' recordings so tape noise was hardly a problem for me and the consequential "pumping and breathing" artifacts were rare and only evident on specific material, whereas I found tape hiss to be much more intrusive and distinctly noticeable on pretty much every single recording that had quiet passages. It had its day but analog tape machines are a silly thing to invest in today.
--

I would assume the current analog tape devotees dismiss the hiss much in the same way they dismiss LP's chronic shortcomings, "Oh no, you need to ignore that noise and hear passed it to the beauty and resolution that only an analog medium can provide!" [oh, brother], not that I pay any attention to such people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk
However, it still stands that if the dynamic range of RedBook gives you a headache, the dynamic range of Analog tape will give you a brain hemorrhage.
But, but, but Arny, the reason formats higher than the CD standard sound better has nothing to do with a wider dynamic range or the ability to play ultrasonics, I'm now told, it's because they, um, just sound better...I know so because my trusty retailer told me so. He can hear it and he's assured me once I upgrade my speaker wires and properly elevate them off the floor, I will too!

[For the benefit of anyone not familiar with this particular audio retail snake oil]:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cabl...audio&tbm=isch

"A related scam is cable elevators— small devices that prevent your wires from touching the floor. Like so many other audiophile “tweak” products, the claims for cable elevators sound magical, and they surely are." - Ethan Winer

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06/

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post #316 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
However, it still stands that if the dynamic range of RedBook gives you a headache, the dynamic range of Analog tape will give you a brain hemorrhage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I'm sitting here smiling because one of the most vocal advocates of so-called high resolution distribution formats on these forums has also waxed poetic about the alleged superlative sound quality of his analog tapes. Analog tape makes Redbook look good, very good!
Hi Arny. First, let me state that I don't mind you using my name at all when you are referring to me. So please don't write these posts as if you are talking about someone not here .

I don't know if you are playing with words or really can't accept that one can enjoy music in different formats. I enjoy music on tape, LP, CD and high-res. I also enjoyed music on cassette tapes, FM radio but did draw the line at AM radio.

For me, content is #1 priority, fidelity is always #2 . If it is music that I like, I enjoy it and it makes no sense for you to complain that I shouldn't be due to spec superiority of one format vs another.

The content I have and listen to on tape which amazes me is old analog second generation masters. No digital versions of these existed when these recordings were made. As such, it is impossible for any digital capture of them now to outperform them in any way. At best it will sound the same. So the claim that listening to tape gives you "brain hemorrhage" is non sequitur.

The above is also true of many people who love and collect tapes today. They want the master that was used to make the LP or CD.

You call me "vocal advocate of so-called high resolution distribution." That is not correct. As I have said repeatedly, I am an advocate of whatever the final stereo master was. I don't want a generation past that. No one can demonstrate any fidelity improvements in the second copy. And our recent testing has shown that our claims of transparency do not hold up in DBT ABX.

You have also said that you damaged your hearing in the Army decades ago so if you don't mind, those of us who had "sheltered lives" as you called us, and can still hear well enough to pass these DBTs, may be hearing/perceiving things in these formats that are simply not audible to you. You can't be color blind yet constantly say which rose color is prettier.

Anytime you are in Seattle area, I would be happy to show you the "superlative" experience that tape can bring. Until then I hope you appreciate that I can't go by your subjective statements in this regard.

Amir
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post #317 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I know so because my trusty retailer told me so. He can hear it and he's assured me once I upgrade my speaker wires and properly elevate them off the floor, I will too!
That's after you have allowed those speaker wires to "break in" of course. (Feel the Burn-In! ) Also be sure that you have connected them properly as they are 'directional'..........

I fired up my laptop (Toshiba Qosmio X775 HK) and listened to these tracks using Etymotic headphones (20 Hz to 15 kHz only) this morning. Informally (and sighted) I can still hear the differences but was only listening to a single (left) channel. This means that ABX testing I do later sometime will have meaning as I used the same segments in this trial. But since the headphones are only rated to 15kHz I am again back to dynamics which maybe now I should call crest factor.

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post #318 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 09:42 AM
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The content I have and listen to on tape which amazes me is old analog second generation masters. No digital versions of these existed when these recordings were made. As such, it is impossible for any digital capture of them now to outperform them in any way. At best it will sound the same.
Exactly, at best it will sound the same. Let's say it does. Problem is, next time your analog tape will not sound the same, because a little bit of your magnetic coating will fall off, and a little bit more will change its orientation and turn into noise. So if you capture them today, your tapes will forever sound worse (and worse and worse) than your digital capture.

Consistent performance is not something to brag about when speaking of analog media.
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post #319 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
I fired up my laptop (Toshiba Qosmio X775 HK) and listened to these tracks using Etymotic headphones (20 Hz to 15 kHz only) this morning. Informally (and sighted) I can still hear the differences but was only listening to a single (left) channel. This means that ABX testing I do later sometime will have meaning as I used the same segments in this trial.
I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you using some mono Etymotic device, akin to this?
http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er22.html

Or you just didn't bother to insert more than one earpiece for your very quick, breif examination?

Many of their products actually do go a tad higher than 15kHz, by the way, they just don't rate them as such. http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...D=743&scale=30

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #320 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 10:32 AM
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Exactly, at best it will sound the same. Let's say it does. Problem is, next time your analog tape will not sound the same, because a little bit of your magnetic coating will fall off, and a little bit more will change its orientation and turn into noise. So if you capture them today, your tapes will forever sound worse (and worse and worse) than your digital capture.

Consistent performance is not something to brag about when speaking of analog media.
Videocassettes have many of the the same problems not to mention the possibility of inadvertent de magnetization and machine tape head wear and then there is fixed tape head and or cassette azimuth mis alignment prevalent on RtR audio and audiocassette tape playback decks along and broken stretched or creased tapes . Broken audiocassette tapes were not uncommon and not unheard of with videocassettes as well as the occasional broken RtR tape

By any modern standard RtR and audiocassete machines and magnetic tape media are fragile and the playback devices maintenance requirements are excessive by today's standards .Historically consumer RtR and audioocassette tape machines were never that reliable anyway and required head cleaning/alighnment /replacememt and bias adjustments also idler and in some cases belt replacements. The ones I had including decent consumer Pioneer RtR and cassette machines were like that . In a lot of the Studios the decks were routinely aligned and bias checked before each recording session .
Digitizing tape collections is certainly a prudent preservation strategy IMO.

RtR tape can certainly sound very very good but it does present LT reliability and machine maintenance issues especially if the playback machines are used frequently these days I wold consider RtR more of a hobby than anything else . .
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My haiku...

Hi-res is the sh!t
Starving children lick their plates
They want the last bit
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post #322 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 11:29 AM
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...
In any case do NOT just run trials and stop when you reach a 'positive' signficance value. ....
One reason not to reveal the answer after each trial, no? If not revealed, the test is run to the designated number of trials.
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post #323 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 12:00 PM
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This means that ABX testing I do later sometime will have meaning as I used the same segments in this trial.
"Segments"?! Danger Will Robinson! Don't use segments if you want your test to be fair. If you listen to only a segment instead of the complete song without switching, you are almost certain to hear this 10 millisecond, or so, time alignment error, which don't forget I've documented I can, since, for example, the beginning 10 mS of any transient peak caught in your selected segment will be completely absent from one source compared to the other, as I'll now explain.

Look at my example I posted earlier and pretend the vertical line I've placed on the time axis represents the starting point of a user's selected segment [looped sequence]. Do you see how the removal of the initial 10 mS of high level sound material from the following peak (a musical transient) when presented with Mosaic B2, plotted below it, will make this peak sound markedly different in terms of its sonic character?
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Also, keep in mind you are just as likely to get a noticeable change at the end of your user selected segment because of the same reason, perhaps even more so. [Altering the end is actually more memorable to us consciously, because there is no other material to then distract or sidetrack our concentration and focus on this alteration we were just exposed to, immediately following it, like there is if it occurs at the beginning of the segment.]

Either adding or chopping off 10 milliseconds, or so, of important, high level material to a waveform, especially a dynamic peak, substantially alters its sonic character, folks, at least if you know what to listen for. I can hear it and it's foolish to think nobody else but me possibly can, even if it is only, perhaps, at a subconscious level for them: "The dynamics seem louder, sharper and quicker on one compared to the other. It reproduces the peaks with a bit more punch, detail and realism." [paraphrased]

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Exactly, at best it will sound the same. Let's say it does. Problem is, next time your analog tape will not sound the same, because a little bit of your magnetic coating will fall off, and a little bit more will change its orientation and turn into noise. So if you capture them today, your tapes will forever sound worse (and worse and worse) than your digital capture.

Consistent performance is not something to brag about when speaking of analog media.
+1

There's also a well-known effect where residual magnetism in the playback heads (which can't be avoided because microscopic amounts of DC current pass through them) partially erases the tape. This is particularly strong at high frequencies.

If you really want to scare yourself, record a 10 KHz tone on an analog tape and watch its amplitude fluctuate as the tape plays and minor imperfections microscopically lift the tape away from the head's gap. Random variations on the order of several dB can be observed, and they can be audible.
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post #325 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 12:38 PM
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Just goes to show education notwithstanding .....you don't have to know anything (or have proof of superiority )to pimp hires music,exotic speaker cables or cable elevators, all you need are perhaps a healthy dose of disinformation to disseminate to the folks ,*maybe* questionable and or simply only monetary motives and a handy cam ! I have one of those ..Sony handy cam that is ??

oh about the video .......... music didn't sound bad at all on lossey You Tube actually pretty good (maybe 192kbps ? )AAC vbr on a hires capable playback chain and studio tracking phones .

Ever notice lot of hires demos often use similar music why is that ? ? anybody ? I have my hypotheses on that. why not a
Stones remaster ?

What's the bit rate or is it bit depth of phatt studio analog tape (think a big Studer reel to reel or one of the big Sony RtR or on Πconsumer tape )what is it 13-15 bits at best I don't know ?

Maybe I'll watch some paint dry ... or some more sales pitches on You tube like the video linked above demoing music on lossey AAC (You Tube) that sound pretty good and somewhat fly in the face of the hires augment or the arugment he was pitching altogether no doubt the tapes sound V.G. maybe better no problem with that vs You Tube .

Think those $150,000 dollar turntables they are pitching in another video are worth it ?
I wouldn't mind a restored Garrard 301 on a nice plinth with a nice SME arm on it lot's cheaper maybe not as good but good enough for most .

more funny are some of the stupid viewer comments ! e.g,
"The sound stage was good! It sounded like Mozart was standing on my desk, right between my computer speakers " (there are more) if that's truly the case one could argue all anybody needs is high bit rate AAC variable or no?

Note : the presenter from AV Showrooms in the above video (*may have shot himself in the foot so to speak in a way ) pitching pre recordrd analog tape when he clearly stated at ~3:42 "it's not going to get any more real than this " when he was introducing a sample in the video. Was that perhaps as a consequence of what he said an unintended endorsement for vbr.AAC (You Tube playback bty).......probably not but one could introduce that argument maybe ? TBH it sounded pretty good and bolsters the argument different formats can sound pretty good and not necessarily need to be hires at all .? â˜șâ˜șâ˜ș
tubetwist, I was going to edit your quote above and only reply to some interesting sections...
But after reading it I left it in its total entirety. ...Because I like it all.

The bonus video that I provided I simply shared it because it does sound "really" good for a youtube video;
I was impressed, no doubt about it.

I don't know the resolution, but I know music when I hear it.

Open-real tape decks and tapes are hi-res analog music medium. I used to record my own playing on one of those German models. ...And it was a portable one, just like my studio guitar.

The best quality sound I have ever heard in my life is first Live, then R2R, and last SACD (DSD pure).
Those are all analog mediums.

Enjoy this beautiful and sunny Sunday afternoon with an after-brunch delight.
...A chocolate mint with a dry martini, shaken but not stirred.

P.S. tube, you should register as a member over @ WBF, and share your knowledge with all them very knowledgeable members in very friendly entourage. I think you'll do extremely well there.
Arny and John (Stereo Phile Editor) and Amir are all members too. ...And Peter too, the guy who shot that video.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #326 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
Exactly, at best it will sound the same. Let's say it does. Problem is, next time your analog tape will not sound the same, because a little bit of your magnetic coating will fall off, and a little bit more will change its orientation and turn into noise. So if you capture them today, your tapes will forever sound worse (and worse and worse) than your digital capture.
Do you have a double blind test that demonstrates this?

Quote:
Consistent performance is not something to brag about when speaking of analog media.
Didn't talk about or brag about consistent performance. I have listened to my tapes a number of times and they still put a smile on my face. Remember, I am not defending analog as a format. I am answering Arny's statement that it is so awful as to be compared to "brain hemorrhage. "

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post #327 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
That's all fine and good, and I heard it too.

However, it appears that this is a needle drop transcribed to analog tape...

Correction: My bad, Yarlong records distributes on analog tape:

http://www.yarlungrecords.com/analog.html

However, it still stands that if the dynamic range of RedBook gives you a headache,
the dynamic range of Analog tape will give you a brain hemorrhage.
But the guy has a PhD, Arny.

* & thx for dat lynx.

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
[For the benefit of anyone not familiar with this particular audio retail snake oil]:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cabl...audio&tbm=isch

"A related scam is cable elevators— small devices that prevent your wires from touching the floor. Like so many other audiophile “tweak” products, the claims for cable elevators sound magical, and they surely are." - Ethan Winer

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06/
dbx, I used that too in some of my tape machines; it killed the music essence.

* "elevators", is that related to Dolby Atmos, the new "elevated" experience?

I'm going to do some ABX DBT DBX testing, tomorrow morning, to see if I'm still rusty.
- VHS tapes are also hi-fi res, with a dynamic range of 96dB, if I remember well (I got lots of music recorded on them too, but they were all stolen from me by a guy who is better not talk about).

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #329 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 01:01 PM
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Do you have a double blind test that demonstrates this?
It is common knowledge among experienced tape ops.

http://home.comcast.net/~mrltapes/accurate.html

"Magnetic damage -- tape erasure -- can come from the tape recorder itself (magnetized heads or guides), or from other fields."

MRL is an authoritative source in these matters. I used to use their alignment tapes.

Feel free to disprove it yourself since you are already equipped with fairly rare equipment that is required to do the test.
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post #330 of 457 Old 08-10-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"Segments"?! Danger Will Robinson! Don't use segments if you want your test to be fair. If you listen to only a segment instead of the complete song without switching, you are almost certain to hear this 10 millisecond, or so, time alignment error, which don't forget I've documented I can, since, for example, the beginning 10 mS of any transient peak caught in your selected segment will be completely absent from one source compared to the other, as I'll now explain.

Look at my example I posted earlier and pretend the vertical line I've placed on the time axis represents the starting point of a user's selected segment [looped sequence]. Do you see how the removal of the initial 10 mS of high level sound material from the following peak (a musical transient) when presented with Mosaic B2, plotted below it, will make this peak sound markedly different in terms of its sonic character?

Also, keep in mind you are just as likely to get a noticeable change at the end of your user selected segment because of the same reason, perhaps even more so. [Altering the end is actually more memorable to us consciously, because there is no other material to then distract or sidetrack our concentration and focus on this alteration we were just exposed to, immediately following it, like there is if it occurs at the beginning of the segment.]

Either adding or chopping off 10 milliseconds, or so, of important, high level material to a waveform, especially a dynamic peak, substantially alters its sonic character, folks, at least if you know what to listen for. I can hear it and it's foolish to think nobody else but me possibly can, even if it is only, perhaps, at a subconscious level for them: "The dynamics seem louder, sharper and quicker on one compared to the other. It reproduces the peaks with a bit more punch, detail and realism." [paraphrased]
Your post # 289 makes sense to me and was basically the approach I as going for. By segments I am referring to 10 second to 30 second long parts of the song. Typically listing to a soft passage and the beginning and some sort of louder (forte?) segment towards the end. Basically comparing what I heard at the begining vs how it built up over a long period. I.e. 10-30 seconds maybe even a minute or so.

Aside from that, "Just My Imagination" is not the most pleasant tune. lol Hard to listen to the whole thing through. Great for avoiding any sort of emotional attachment/bias. A little to much Jazz for my taste.

No way I would be flipping back and forth in some sort of manic fashion where perhaps the 10mS delta could be observed.

Gaugster

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