AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: The Results So Far - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
This is a giant strawman. The difference between you and every other listener is that sometimes you manage to hear microdifferences by doing something completely different than what Meyer and Moran did (which was having people listen to music). You are not the graduate, and we are not kids.


This is another giant strawman. They tested real world people in real world conditions with real world recordings in a real world way. There is no dilution. You cannot select 10 people over 6 feet tall and than say that human population is 6 feet tall on average.
I glean from this that Dancing Man from Madrona hasn't even read the Meyer & Moran (2007) paper or supplement, despite numerous postings of links.

I'm shocked (yawn).

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post #92 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Pretty sure he's not in the medical profession (biologist of some sort, I think).
Correct.
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post #93 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister
Interesting about the MRI thing !. Maybe some ultrasonic resolution was being experienced by the listeners at a low level but below (or outside ) of our minds usual ability to both interpret and reconcile or recognize the frequencies altogether ( meaning not hearing them in a conventional sense ) so that does little to support the hires proponent argument but should perhaps be looked into to see just what it is
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
post 83
Only a person who has not had an MRI would take this seriously. It is loud as hell with regular bangs and vibrations.
They asked me if a needed valium, I declined and still almost feel asleep
RichB when you quoted me and wrote post 83 above it was fine and I would agree except you missed something namely my correction in post 78 below - 5 posts above 83 ..good thing this is not your day job huh? just kidding ☺☺could happen to anybody ☺☺ regards


Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister
post 78
Yes I've had a few MRI usually customary to wear earplugs (sometimes phones with music) inside any I've been inside more than one ) very noisy ( I believe they may contain dynomomiters and other motors much like some x ray systems .


MRI are noisy inside room ,way more when UR inside even when with phones or earplugs Impossible to do critical listening (or hardly think except I want outta here) or much-less do differential analysis in at east the ones I've driven !....................... anybody smelling fish yet ?
.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #94 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 01:37 PM
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Given that successful and reproducible differentiation was established, Amir, can one say that different SRCs would yield the same successful outcomes?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #95 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
I glean from this that Dancing Man from Madrona hasn't even read the Meyer & Moran (2007) paper or supplement, despite numerous postings of links.
I have read it more times than I care to admit. I have quoted numerous portions of the paper and problems within. Here is a post in the debate thread from just two days ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
No, it is pretty easy. All you have to do is read their paper. No mention of training or trained/expert listeners. Here it is in their own words:

"With the help of about 60 members of the Boston Audio
Society and many other interested parties, a series of
double-blind (A/B/X) listening tests were held over a period
of about a year. Many types of music and voice signals
were included in the sources, from classical (choral,
chamber, piano, orchestral) to jazz, pop, and rock music.
The subjects included men and women of widely varying
ages, acuities, and levels of musical and audio experience;
many were audio professionals or serious students of the art."


Nothing in there speaks to specific training such as what I have in finding artifacts that they were chasing. There is also no mention of training content for the listeners they did have.

And "many types of music" supposed to be all the qualifications needed for such a test? Not that any of them have actual high frequencies in them?
I have also post images from their report. This one on the authors:



Seem like very nice and accomplished folks in their own field. But nothing remotely resembling "audio scientists." Hency my comment that this is a hobbyist report.

This is the system/room used for most of the testing:



They say it is a great system. Where is the data to show that it is a revealing system for this kind of test? If this were the picture of an audiophile room who had claimed to hear differences, he would have been ridiculed for "oh look, he doesn't even have room treatment and he is worrying about high-res content." Have the system/room be part of a negative outcome in that regard and you have me as the only person to ever post that picture, not our biology "scientist."

Quote:
I'm shocked (yawn).
Krab, please put your PR hat down. We don't need cheerleaders trying to cloud the discussion with made up statements like yours above that is so easy to disprove. Take your own advice and read BS 1116, study the large number of papers that that follow its guidelines instead of living in fantasy land of forum members thinking they are audio "scientists."

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post #96 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Given that successful and reproducible differentiation was established, Amir, can one say that different SRCs would yield the same successful outcomes?
I don't have a definitive statement on this as I have not done enough testing to know. I did perform a resample using Arny's file and the resampler in latest version of Audition CC which I reported on in the debate thread:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/24 20:27:41

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling amir-converted 4416 2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling full band 2496.wav

20:27:41 : Test started.
20:28:07 : 00/01 100.0%
20:28:25 : 00/02 100.0%
20:28:55 : 01/03 87.5%
20:29:02 : 02/04 68.8%
20:29:12 : 03/05 50.0%
20:29:20 : 04/06 34.4%
20:29:27 : 05/07 22.7%
20:29:36 : 06/08 14.5%
20:29:44 : 07/09 9.0%
20:29:55 : 08/10 5.5%
20:30:00 : 09/11 3.3%
20:30:07 : 10/12 1.9%
20:30:16 : 11/13 1.1%
20:30:22 : 12/14 0.6%
20:30:29 : 13/15 0.4%
20:30:36 : 14/16 0.2%
20:30:41 : 15/17 0.1%
20:30:53 : 16/18 0.1%
20:31:03 : 17/19 0.0%
20:31:07 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 17/19 (0.0%)


Anecdotally, I thought finding differences was harder than the files Arny had converted. So there may be differences there. It is just too early and premature to say.

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post #97 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
I'm saying the "results" Scott got are not surprising or unexpected at all. If 50 people take a test where there's a 1 in 8 chance of a perfect score, why would we be surprised that 6 people got perfect scores?
Excellent point, by merely flipping a coin to make their decisions we should expect 1/8th of the responses to be perfect scores, simply by dumb luck. Interestingly the typical score [the "mean" or "average"] using such a coin-flipping method would be 1.5 perfect IDs, and at the time of this posting the front runner is pretty close to just that, namely "1 correct ID score":
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


...The track most commonly cited as being the easiest to hear the difference was "Mosaic"—
...Let the listening continue!
Yes. Perhaps now with the benefits of the incredibly powerful training tool I posted, the ultrasonic spectrum analyzer video v.3.0, people will now more easily discover exactly when the sonic differences should be expected to be most easily apparent. BE SURE TO USE THE NEW AND IMPROVED VERSION 3.0 SUPPLIED AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST

I do hope everyone is taking advantage of this free tutorial/training tool, and are using it, since getting a training session from a trusty, unbiased, golden-eared listener (namely a computer with a much better hearing range than any human) to instruct you specifically what to listen for and when, is a truly eye opening, or perhaps that should be ear opening experience!

My training tool should greatly increase people's sensitivity and bump up the scores. [That is of course assuming their systems truly delivers the goods and they truly can hear it.] Be sure to only listen at safe levels.

VERSION 3.0 now with a few select, ultrasonic peaks annotated and my best attempt at explaining the purpose of Arnyk's training tone with its immediately following test tones [which may reveal an audible IM distortion problem in some HRA systems.]:


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #98 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I don't have a definitive statement on this as I have not done enough testing to know. I did perform a resample using Arny's file and the resampler in latest version of Audition CC which I reported on in the debate thread:

<snip>

Anecdotally, I thought finding differences was harder than the files Arny had converted. So there may be differences there. It is just too early and premature to say.
If that's the case, is it more fair to say,

1) some people can reliably distinguish between hi-res and CD
Or
2) some people can reliably distinguish between hi-res and CD but testing suggests the SRC used may affect the ease and possibly success among trained listeners. Further work is suggested.

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post #99 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
RichB when you quoted me and wrote post 83 above it was fine and I would agree except you missed something namely my correction in post 78 below - 5 posts above 83 ..good thing this is not your day job huh? just kidding ☺☺could happen to anybody ☺☺ regards

It's the software, I tell you


I noticed that not too many want to weigh in on why these HD samples might sound better than their 44.1 counterparts.

Putting too much stock in Ultrasonics could correlate well with wearing tin-foils hats

I would gladly buy HD recordings from better masters but not for the frequencies about 22kHz.

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post #100 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
VERSION 3.0 now with a few select, ultrasonic peaks annotated...
These aren't necessarily where one might hear the differences, of course, [in fact, it theoretically might not be from the ultrasonic content at all] and I only selected a few that caught my eye, that I thought looked promising because they were somewhat isolated from any strong, adjacent, lower band content (which we know perceptually masks any adjacent, higher frequency content).

I initially had some reservations about marking the peaks, but decided overall it might benefit some listeners, especially the ones who never had a high grade RTA display staring them in the face, in their audio rack, like I did for many of my formative years. I decided overall the pros outweighed the cons, but now I will discuss a possible con.

We must also consider that my video tool (which I've carefully designed so as to not reveal the code letters of which version of the song "Mosaic" is the hi-res version) might also be used for abuse, or mischief, I'm afraid; an unscrupulous liar, although they can't cheat by using my video itself, might, for example, proclaim: "See the beautiful musical triangle struck at the 1m24s mark, everyone?' [That's referring to the song's actual time code, not Youtube's time code] THAT'S the ultrasonic content where I hear a difference and I am using it to ace my ABX testing! I can hear a difference there, plain as day. Yes siree. The spectral image proves it." [No, it doesn't.]

Whereas they actually cheated by any of the various established cheat methods such as editing their ABX test logs by hand, or simply falsifying the test procedure by dragging in any two songs of their choice, but relabeling them as "keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3", "Mosaic XX", etc., prior to pulling them into their playlist to then ABX. Presto, changeo, BINGO, the test result logs will call the two songs exactly what they told it they were to be called, not the songs' original names. Now they just bring the actual, unmodified ABX logs intact to the thread to brag, lie, and misdirect the other forum members. [Not to imply anyone here would have any motive, financial or otherwise, to lie or cheat, of course.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #101 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 04:09 PM
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Lightbulb Test: Some food (audio) for thought (hearing) ...

Only because this thread has now become an extension to a recent defunct one:
Audio Illusion => Will Make You Never Trust Your Ears Again
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post #102 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 04:24 PM
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Interestingly (or not), two of my determinations were based on dynamics alone. Not so much high frequency sibilance/harness.

The other track was determined by frequency content.

I was just listening. No other aids. All conversations thus far seems to focus on the ultrasonic merits if any.
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post #103 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 04:44 PM
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Out of curiosity, what speakers (or headphones) did you use, Gaugster ?
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post #104 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Out of curiosity, what speakers (or headphones) did you use, Gaugster ?
It's listed in my profile but Definitive Technology. They are spec'd out 'flat' to 30kHz. Above that it's anybody's guess about how they roll off.
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post #105 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Whereas they actually cheated by any of the various established cheat methods such as editing their ABX test logs by hand, or simply falsifying the test procedure by dragging in any two songs of their choice, but relabeling them as "keys jangling full band 2496 test tones f3", "Mosaic XX", etc., prior to pulling them into their playlist to then ABX. Presto, changeo, BINGO, the test result logs will call the two songs exactly what they told it they were to be called, not the songs' original names. Now they just bring the actual, unmodified ABX logs intact to the thread to brag, lie, and misdirect the other forum members. [Not to imply anyone here would have any motive, financial or otherwise, to lie or cheat, of course.]
I am glad you are not implying that even though you went through some length describing the cheats.

So it is absolutely clear, I did not resort to any of the above cheats. Or anything else for that matter. I downloaded the files, dragged them into foobar and started listening.

I also did not perform any spectrum analysis of these files as you did prior to listening tests, or even after for confirmation.
What you did is fine as a training tool but I thought the test conditions specifically called for not performing such analysis.

My ability to tell these files apart relied on educated guesses as to more vulnerable spots based on understanding of the algorithms involved, carefully listening to every bit of what existed in those spots down to specific instruments, and being trained to look for small differences. All of this was in my head. My fingers and the UI simply reflected me listening to A, then B, then repeat if necessary until I could classify the difference. Once there, I would do nothing more than hitting X or Y to see which matches my classification of the difference. You could sit in front of me and I will guarantee that you will not notice me doing anything different than what I just described.

Remember, I am posting under my real name. I am not posting under an alias where if it came out that I cheated, I could just move on and create another alias.

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post #106 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 05:25 PM
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"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #107 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
I was at your convenience store the other day Chu and took this picture. Hope you don't mind me posting it:


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post #108 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 05:40 PM
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Yeah, all us Asians have convenience stores.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #109 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 05:48 PM
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Haven't read it but I see there's a post quoting me above. Just as a reminder to all, I ignore his posts due to his conduct I deem completely unacceptable to both me and others [references available upon request] so should there be any question(s) by him to me in that post or any subsequent ones, they will go unanswered. This may make me a sitting duck to attacks (an easy target) but I wont see them so I don't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaugster
It's listed in my profile but Definitive Technology. They are spec'd out 'flat' to 30kHz. Above that it's anybody's guess about how they roll off.
Thanks, I never carried that brand but have heard good things about it. I was a Mirage dealer (also bipolar) so it would've been unusual to carry both.

Also, I thought to point out that I intentionally expanded the vertical expanse of the spectrum analyzer display from its default 60 dB range to 80 dB so it will show the quieter parts and the larger dynamic range of hi-res with greater clarity, so it can be useful for analyzing that aspect as well. I decided not to use the even further 100 or more dB range since that expanse reduces the resolution of the top peaks with all those dB so tightly squished together.

Already the expanded scale I used, 80 dB, you even see things that don't correspond to typical human perception; how many of you noticed that Arny's jangling keys actually have a very low bass content down to 20 Hz! Wow, who would have thought that!? It's so low in level that I never would have even seen it if I had stayed with the default 60 dB scale. [So don't expect much subwoofer action from that at typical, tweeter-preserving output levels.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #110 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 06:06 PM
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Haven't read it but I see there's a post quoting me above. Just as a reminder to all, I ignore his posts due to his conduct I deem completely unacceptable to both me and others

Good for you. You should be emulated.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #111 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 06:37 PM
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I'll tell you, and I'm not exaggerating one bit, it is an incredibly liberating experience. A huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders so I have time to focus on the things that really matter... like my video's editing I got done.

Tomorrow or so, or maybe in just a few minutes/hours from now for all I know, when you are composing an angry post of protest about something, and you are feeling frustrated, upset, and/or stepped on or abused, just ask yourself, "Do I really need this frustration and the consequent ulcers it brings on? Is my life bettered in any way by responding to these taunts and strawman arguments? Will what I'm doing actually fix the problem, long-term, other than giving me a fleeting feeling of victory, only to have this same rotten feeling occur all over again because the root cause will never go away?......... Is there perhaps some other way to get rid of these knots in my stomach? The answer is YES, THERE IS.
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post #112 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
...

Regarding the MRI/brain scan topic. If you don't think you can "hear it", yet your brain scan says you do, who exactly makes the audio buying decisions in your household, you or your brain scan ?!

..."
I just wonder what the MRI really indicated and not what the authors claimed it indicated to them.
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post #113 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Yes I've had a few MRI usually customary to wear earplugs (sometimes phones with music) inside any I've been inside more than one ) very noisy ( I believe they may contain dynomomiters and other motors much like some x ray systems .

MRI are noisy inside room ,way more when UR inside even when with phones or earplugs Impossible to do critical listening (or hardly think except I want outta here) or much-less do differential analysis in at east the ones I've driven !....................... anybody smelling fish yet ?
That's probably why the brain activity.
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post #114 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 07:05 PM
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MRI Doctor: "What is it we're testing for again?"
Psych Student: "The perception of ultrasonic frequencies on the mind."
MRI Doctor: "What's wrong with using an extended range audiogram?"
Psych Student: "Those tests show people don't think they can hear it."
MRI Doctor: "They taught us in med school there's a hard limit at around 20/22kHz for anyone passed their mid teens, or so. Is there some new evidence to contradict that?"
Psych Student: "Yeah, they market audio gear that goes higher."
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post #115 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
This is another giant strawman. They tested real world people in real world conditions with real world recordings in a real world way. There is no dilution. You cannot select 10 people over 6 feet tall and than say that human population is 6 feet tall on average.
Just want to point out that if you take this analogy to match Amir's proposed parameters, you would be attempting to prove that people CAN BE over 6 feet tall, not what percentage would be.

Analogies on forums are seldom useful. Yours proved the opposite of your point, although the proof is meaningless, regardless.
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post #116 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I'll tell you, and I'm not exaggerating one bit, it is an incredibly liberating experience.
One of the few advantages of the recent forum takeover is the ability to view one's ignore list in the user CP. I got a chuckle when I realized that mine had reached nearly 250 people, to surpass that number by this coming week's end I'm sure.
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post #117 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 11:14 PM
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I find it just as easy, if not better, to simply not read the posts I don't want to.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #118 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
I just wonder what the MRI really indicated and not what the authors claimed it indicated to them.
Well it's clear as day. Can't you see the difference? Clearly the Kensington-Hull red factor in the 4th subject shows a clear indication of temporal lobe under flow dynamic transient co-factor synergy and that can only mean one thing: 25 kHz or greater sound:

Source: http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #119 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 11:29 PM
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post #120 of 457 Old 08-03-2014, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I find it just as easy, if not better, to simply not read the posts I don't want to.
Simple question: How do you know, a priori whether or not you want to read a given post? The ignore list solution solves this by implicitly answering the question, "who has not caused a prior facepalm?"
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